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[music]

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Kathryn: So, how did we
get into the situation where we

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have these problems with money
bail?

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That's the focus of this segment
where we focus on how bail

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practices developed in the
United States and what that

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means for current pretrial
reform.

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If you turn to page 17 in your
participant guide, we'll take a

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quick look at the objectives for
this segment of the program.

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First, we're going to describe
the history of bail and the

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lessons we've learned that from.
Secondly, we'll described the

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fundamental legal principles
behind bail and the lessons

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learned there.
And we'll also understand the

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purposes of bail and no bail in
the United States.

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We're going to glance quickly at
our framework for pretrial

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justice, and, again, at this
portion of the program we're

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going to be focusing on the law.
Now, as just an introduction to

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this segment, we know that a lot
of people are not familiar with

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the history of bail, which is
critical to understanding where

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we are now in terms of what the
law says and where we need to go

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from here.
And so this is going to be a

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brief segment, but trust me,
it's very informative.

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You will learn things about the
history of bail and the law you

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did not know before and it will
help us as we move into the

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other segments as we talk about
how do we begin to make

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appropriate changes based on
that history and based on the

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law.
So, let's start first with

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Leland, and that is, why is
understanding the history of

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bail law important to our
current reform efforts?

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Leland: Well, Kathryn, understanding
the history of bail is really critical

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to understanding why the
United States has gone through

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two generations of bail reform
previously, and why we are

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currently in a third.
Also, really, the history of bail

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provides all the contextual
answers for really every

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question that's raised about
bail.

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So, it's really critical that
people understand that history.

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Kathryn: Okay. What we're
going to do right now, is look at

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a feature segment.
It basically shows you the

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history of bail in a thousand
years in three minutes.

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So, it's brief. It's informative, but
here's the important thing you

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should look for.
It focuses on how we turned from

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traditions of release to
traditions of detention, based on

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money bail.

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[music]

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Narrator: Bail and no bail are processes
for pretrial release and detention have

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1,000-year-old European roots.
In 1066, the Normans invaded

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England. Bringing with them a new
criminal justice system,

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including establishing which
offenses were bailable and which

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were not.

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By 1274, King Edward
the First learned

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that sheriffs were abusing that
custom by forcing customarily bailable

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people to pay get out of jail. And
also allowing customarily unbailable people

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to pay for release from jail.

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In response to these abuses,
Parliament enact the Statute of

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Westminster in 1275, which ensured
bailable defendants would

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be released, and unbailable
defendants would be detained

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without additional payment. By making
it crime for royal sheriffs to act

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otherwise.

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Accordingly by 1275, the right to bail
was meant to equal a

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right to release and the denial
of a right to bail was meant to

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equal detention. To make sure
that bail actually equaled release,

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the English used personal sureties, people
who watched over the defendants

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and who were not allowed to profit or
even be paid back if they lost money.

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More importantly, the English
used what we call today,

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unsecured bonds, which was a
promise to pay some amount of

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money, only in the event the
defendant did not return to court.

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Using unsecured bonds and
keeping profit out of bail, made

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sure virtually, all bailable
defendants were actually

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released because nobody had to
pay anything up front to get out

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of jail. These vital principles
continued in England

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and were carried over to the
colonies in the 1600s.

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Gradually, the American colonies enlarged
the right to bail.

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In 1682, Pennsylvania adopted a
very broad and liberal bail law.

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The Great law of 1682 ensured
that all prisoners shall be

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bailable by sufficient sureties
unless for capital offenses,

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where the proof is evident or
presumption great.

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America liked a broad right to pretrial
release and so the language in 1682

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Pennsylvania Great law became
the model for nearly

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every American jurisdiction
afterward.

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Accordingly, in early America and
for roughly 200 years a

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defendant was either bailable or
he was not.

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And if he was bailable, he was
expected to be released.

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For the most part, only people
facing capital crimes could be

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detained pretrial.
As in England, America wanted to

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make sure that bail equaled release.
So, it too, used personal sureties

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and unsecured bonds, so that no
defendant had to pay anything up

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front to get out of jail.
This meant that the accused had to

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find one or two people they knew,
who could guarantee they would

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return to court and promise to
pay a lump sum of money if the

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accused the did not return to
court.

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As in England, the system worked
to get all bailable defendants

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out of jail.
So, how did we get to where we

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are today?
As our nation dramatically

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increased in size, due to
territorial expansion west of

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the Mississippi, it became
more and more difficult for our

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courts to find people who would
act as sureties for no money.

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Also, the absence of close
friends and neighbors in

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frontier America would have made
it difficult for the court to

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find acceptable personal
custodians for many defendants.

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Finally, the vast expanse of land
provided sanctuary for any

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defendant wanting to abscond.
This led to the creation of the

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first commercial surety in 1898,
the use of secured commercial

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bonds and ultimately, the first
generation of U.S. bail reform.

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[music]

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Kathryn: So, we've
learned a little bit about the

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history of bail from early
England to 19th century

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America, but Leland, what led to
our current system of bail in

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the United States?

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Leland: Well, really it was the major
shift from a system that used

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unsecured bonds, to a system that
used secured bonds, and this really came to

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be because, as you saw in the
graphic, we were running out of

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personal sureties due to
westward expansion.

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Our solution was, in the 1900s,
to shift to a system that used

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commercial sureties and secured
bonds and unfortunately, that

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resulted in more bailable
defendants being held in jail

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because they couldn't post the
amount needed up front to obtain

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their release.
Within 20 years of the advent of

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this new system, scholars began
to study for-profit commercial

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sureties and secured money
bonds, in detail, which really

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kind of was the impetus for the
first generation of bail reform.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, we know
this conversation has been going

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on for a while and the first
generation of reform was, as you

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said, a lot of people couldn't
pay to get out of jail,

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so they were stuck in jail.
And in the early 1960s, there

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was a lot of conversation about
this.

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Readers Digest, in fact, created a
documentary called "All America

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Wants to Know" where they tackled
the problem of money bail.

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We have an excerpt from that
documentary back in the 1960s.

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[music]

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Documentary: Why should the average law
abiding citizen be concerned

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with the problem of bail or
jail?

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Well, Ted, I don't want to
get into the humanitarian

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aspects.
They should be so obvious to

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everybody. What happens to a man
when he spends grueling days in

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jail.
I gave you the New York figures

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and what they add up to?
1,800,000 smoldering days in jail were

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spent last year by the
defendants awaiting trial.

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Now, just forgetting what
happens to a man, his future job

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prospects, his incentive to
additional further crime, his

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family, there are also
pocketbook aspects.

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The family goes on relief
That says he's paid for that.

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The cost, 1,800,000
in one city. They's in one city.

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The cost has been estimated from
$6 low to a citizen's union

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estimate of $10 to $20 a day for
each person in jail.

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You can rapidly make
calculations.

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Our jails in New York City are
presently bursting at the seams.

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We've hit a new record of over
13,000 inmates held in detention

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and after sentence. And
to  erect new bails to cope with

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this means tens of millions of
dollars in capital investments.

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Yes, the jails are bursting
at the seams, a problem of great

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concern to New York City
Commissioner of Correction, Anna

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Cross, a long-time fighter against bail
or jail.

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The question of bail is a
very important one.

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I became interested in the
problem as a magistrate way back

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in 1934, and had as part of my
everyday routine the question of

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why we can't allow many people
to have their trials heard

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without their remaining in jail
awaiting trial.

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Because remaining in jail --
because you can't get bail,

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is really being punished before
you're even found guilty.

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And, What bothered me as the jailer,
is why so many people had to

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remain in jail for the length of
time that they did

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because they range from a
few days--

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--Because averages don't really tell
you the story. The average in some

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places was 40 days, 30 days, but some men
and women remain in jail

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inordinate times.
And, as far as I was concerned, that

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was not just.
That was destroying our concept

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of justice.
So, I'm very happy that the

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Reader's Digest is going into
looking at this problem and is

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writing about it.

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[music]

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Kathryn: If only the cost of keeping
somebody in jail for a day was

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still only 15 or $20. But yet, the
first generation of bail reform

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was in the 1960s, and, Leland,
what were the goals and results and

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how did that lead to other generations
of reform?

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Leland: So, Kathryn, when we think
about the first generation of bail reform,

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which was roughly from the
1920s to the 1960s,

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we really should think about release,
because that was the focus of that

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generation. Scholars and reformers were
really focused on getting

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defendants out of jail, who were
there solely because they

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couldn't afford to pay for their
release, and during this

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generation, we focused and
created new means for people to

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get out of jail such as release
on recognizance, and we also

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started developing the first
pretrial service agencies.

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Now, in contrast to that, the
second generation of reform was

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about detention.
It was sparked by people were

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getting out of jails and
committing crimes, and also by

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the fact that during the first
generation, we really didn't

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address this issue of how do we
detain people who are a risk to

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public and community safety?
And so, during the second

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generation, what we did was, we
created public safety as a

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legitimate reason to limit
pretrial freedom and we created

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schemes that allowed for
preventative or no bail

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detention.
The problem today, is that states

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really cherry picked these
previous two reforms and so,

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there wasn't a complete picture. And,
that really resulted in the fact that we

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don't release or detain the
right people in most

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jurisdictions in the United
States. And our third generation,

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our current generation of bail
reform.

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Kathryn: Okay. And so, really
what the third generation of

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reform, is involving then is
because of the cherry picking is

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the changing of laws and
sometimes state constitutions, in

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order to correct this problem
that we have with money bail.

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Chief Justice Charles Daniels of the
New Mexico supreme court talks

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about the reform efforts that
are under way in his state.

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[music]

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Chief Justice Daniels: Our court was
sufficiently concerned that we set about to

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try to get a handle on what was
going on in New Mexico.

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We looked at what had been
happening in other

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jurisdictions.
We looked at how we ended up

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with a money system instead of
an evidence-based system, and we

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appointed a broad-based task
force comprised of all

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components of the criminal
justice system, prosecution,

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defense, the judiciary, the
detention centers, who have to

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jail these folks, the commercial
bail bonds men.

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We had seats at the table for
them.

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All kinds of people who had
experience, input, perspectives,

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and asked them to look at what
was happening.

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Are we complying with what the
theory of our law is?

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And there's a lot of established
law in bail.

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Should we change the rules, the
principles of law that apply to

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have a more effective and more
fair system?

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And to recommend to the Supreme
Court, which in New Mexico,

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writes the rules of procedure,
including bail, and to recommend

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to the legislature and the
governor of New Mexico what we

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ought to do in changing rules,
changing statutes, changing

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constitutional provisions where
they needed to be, and we found

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00:14:15,524 --> 00:14:18,588
changes were necessary in all of
those.

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[music]

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Kathryn: Incidentally,
New Mexico voters will be voting

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on a constitutional amendment in
November, that essentially will

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eliminate money bail and change
a lot of laws regarding bail.

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So, we know, Tim, that New Mexico was
among the national leaders

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kind of setting the--becoming the
model for pretrial justice reform,

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and what's happening in
other states?

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Tim: There's a lot happening in
other states. In fact, these days,

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it's easier to keep track of the
states that aren't doing anything, than

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it is the ones that are. The ones that
are doing things all have three

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things in common. One, is that they're
using that research that we talked about,

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they're getting help from very important
groups, like the National Institute of

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Corrections or Pretrial Justice
Institute and then they're crafting

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individual solutions they can use in their
state to try to fix all these problems.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, Tim, what can we
say are the lessons that we've

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learned from the history of bail
and what does the history of

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bail tell us about our current
pretrial practices in the United

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States?

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Tim: You know, the best lesson from
history would be we're in a generation of

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reform. And that's important to know
because if you know you're in a

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generation of reform, you can
look at other generations and

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see how to get out of that
generation.

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History, also tells us, that ever since
1275, bail has always been an in or

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out proposition. And if anything
ever interferes with that, then

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bail reform happens. And
the rule you can sort of think

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to yourself, is if anybody -- if
the wrong people are in or out

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of jail, bail reform happens.
Right now, in America we have all

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the wrong people in and out of
jail.

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We have low and medium risk
people who are in jail because of money.

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We have sometimes extremely high
risk people who get out of jail

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who probably should be in there
that get out because of money.

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So, the history tells us more
than anything, we're in a

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generation of bail reform, but it
tells us how to get out of that

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generation and how to avoid a
fourth generation of bail reform.

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Kathryn: Alright. Well, let's move
our discussion

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then from history to
the law.

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We're going to connect them a
little bit later, but let's talk

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about the importance of
understanding the legal

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principles behind bail and what
do we need to know about that,

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Leland?

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Leland: Well, Kathryn, the fundamental
legal principles behind bail as

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Tim mentioned in the first segment,
really provide the boundaries

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for pretrial release and detention
in the United States.

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They provide a guide on how to do bail,
or release properly and how to do

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no bail and detention properly, as well.
And what's surprising is that these

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fundamental legal principles
are not a novel concept.

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They have been with us since the
founding of our country, but

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unfortunately, for several
decades, these principles have

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been essentially ignored, and
the result has been that

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pretrial practices, laws and
policies have been created that

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violate these principles.
Fortunately, things are changing

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in the United States, and courts
are holding up these practices,

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policies and laws to the
fundamental legal principles and

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forcing jurisdictions to change.

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Kathryn: Alright. So, Tim, what
would you say are the foundational

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legal principles that every person who is
involved in pretrial justice

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should know and understand?

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Tim: I think there's a bunch. But, we'll
just talk about five very quickly, and that

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would be the presumption of
innocence, the right to bail,

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excessive bail, due process and
equal protection.

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The presumption of innocence is
foundational to our entire

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criminal justice system.
It's basically is a concept that if you

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are arrested as a defendant, you
don't have to prove your

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own innocence.
Government has to prove your

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guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
But, it also applies to bail.

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It's very important when it
comes to the right to bail and

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in fact, it's like the primary
reason for why we even have that

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right in America.
When it comes to the right to

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bail, that's important because
every state has it.

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They may articulate it
differently but we all have it.

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Historically speaking, the right
to bail was always the right to

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release, which was why in 1951,
the U.S. Supreme Court equated

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the right to bail with the right
to release before trial.

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Obviously, as Leland suggested,
we sort of gotten away from that.

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Excessive bail is what people
mostly hear about.

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It's because they're thinking
about high numbers in money, but

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what they probably don't realize
is historically speaking,

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whenever we had a number of
money that the person couldn't

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make, that was deemed excessive,
historically.

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We've gotten way away from that
in America now.

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We somehow tolerate people
sitting in jail on amounts of

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money this they can't possibly
make.

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And due process is -- really
gets down to fundamental

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fairness. It's one of those things
where if you see something

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that's arbitrary, unfair,
irrational the government is not

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allowed to do those kinds of
things to people in this

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country and if you see that in
bail, which we see a lot in bail,

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you can realize you probably
have a due process claim.

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Kathryn: Okay. And finally, the
final principle, is equal

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protection and what does that
involve, Leland?

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Leland: Well, like due process, equal
protection is about fairness.

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It's a guarantee that similarly
situated persons will be treated

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alike in the eyes of the law,
especially when there's a fundamental

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right involved like,
Liberty, or a suspect class,

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such as race or gender, and you
would think that bail would be

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perfect for equal protection
challenge, given the implications

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based on wealth and race,
however, courts have been slow

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to kind of embrace equal
protection challenges.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, we know we
need to understand these legal

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principles, but, Tim, how should
these legal principles be

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applied to pretrial reform
efforts then?

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Tim: Well, to apply them
you need to hold them up,

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because they are these big lofty
principles and then you take

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all your policies and practices, even
your laws and hold them up to

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these higher
principles and ask yourself, do

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they abide by the basic
fundamental notions that involved in

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these practices.
When anybody does that, they

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almost uniformly realize
they have to change a

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heck of a lot of stuff, which is why it's
so important that later, you listen very

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closely to Tom O'Connor talking about
how to make that change.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, let's talk specifically
how legal principles fit with the

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history of bail and the law and how
they're applied to pretrial

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release and detention. What do we know
about that?

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Tim: Well, it's interesting because the
history and law come together sort of almost

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hand and glove sense with court cases.
And we have two court cases that are

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dealing with bail that everybody
needs to know. And tack up

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on their cubicle walls. And that's Stack
versus Boyle from 1951 and

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and United States versus Salerno from
1987.

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Kathryn: Alright then. Leland, tell us
about Stack versus Boyle, first. And

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the lessons that we've learned
from that case.

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Leland: Well, the Stack case comes from the
first generation of bail

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reform and so, therefore,
we can think of it as focusing

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on release. And
every case tells a story and

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Stack tells a story of America
during the Red Scare or

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McCarthy era in the
United States, where fear of

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00:21:02,723 --> 00:21:06,947
Communism and Communist
infiltration of America was rampant and

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many Americans were accused of
being Communists or Communist

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sympathizers and subject to
investigation and arrest.

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Now, the named plaintiff, Loretta
Stack, was a waitress in San Francisco

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and she also happened to be,
unfortunately for her, the secretary of her

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local communist party at the time. In
1951, Loretta and 11 other members

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of the communist party in California
were charged with advocating or

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conspiring to advocate the overthrow
of the United States government.

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And what happened was the district
court eventually set a bail

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amount of $50,000 on each of
those defendants.

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Now, those defendants said, hey,
this isn't fair, and they

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challenged it.
They said our bail -- the way

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our bail was set is excessive
under the 8th amendment and

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the United States Supreme Court
agreed with them and said, yes,

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bail was excessive because it
was arbitrary, $50,000 was

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really pulled from a hat, it was higher
than necessary to assure their

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return to court, and ultimately,
it wasn't individualized.

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So, we can learn three things
really from Stack, and that is

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that the right to bail is a
right to actual release.

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And release should be the norm.
Bail has to be individualized.

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That's the second thing.
And bail can't be arbitrary.

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It has to be based on standards
relevant to assuring the

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presence of the accused.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, we know the
first case, Stack versus

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Boyle, was about release and so
that was the first generation of reform.

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And so, there's a case we focus on
for the second generation of

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reform, and what's that all
about?

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Tim: That's United
States versus Salerno,

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definitely dealing with
detention. Because, back then,

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there were defendants getting
out of jail and they were committing

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crimes. And
people said we don't want those

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people out of jail. We want those people in
jail. We want to detain those people.

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And there were arguments back and
forth, can you do that based on

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a risk of something they may or
may not do in the future and

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public safety?
That was never a consideration

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00:23:06,705 --> 00:23:08,319
before.
Can we even talk about public

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safety at bail.
All those questions were big

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00:23:11,074 --> 00:23:15,196
important legal questions that were solved
in that case, Salerno and the

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00:23:15,196 --> 00:23:17,814
Supreme court said yes, you can
enlarge your

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00:23:17,814 --> 00:23:22,347
no bail bucket, you can base
detention it on a prediction of risk to

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public safety, but Salerno was very
clear in saying that if you do that because

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it's practically un-American to
do it, you have to make sure of

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two things. First, is it got to be
really, really limited and the

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second thing is it has to be really,
really fair.

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The term they use is carefully
limited, and realize this,

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carefully limited cannot
possibly mean detaining people

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with money. Because
when you use money to detain

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people, it's almost carelessly detaining
them.

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Kathryn: Okay. So, as we synthesize
this information, what are the

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00:23:54,421 --> 00:23:59,485
combinations, the take-aways, Tim,
from the combination of the

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00:23:59,485 --> 00:24:00,641
history and the law.

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00:24:00,641 --> 00:24:03,624
Tim: You, know, the history and the
law are intertwined. I think it's helpful

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00:24:03,624 --> 00:24:08,332
to know both. Because, you know,
legal laws--changes to laws, lead to

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00:24:08,332 --> 00:24:10,918
historical events and those
lead to changes in laws.

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The two together, really tell us three big
things.

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And the first, is as you're figuring
out, money, secured

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money in America is our
big problem.

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00:24:19,777 --> 00:24:22,309
It's the problem we have been
fighting with ever since 1900.

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00:24:22,309 --> 00:24:24,271
We've gone through generations of
reform to fix it.

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00:24:24,271 --> 00:24:27,683
But, the law and the history also
tell us our definitions of what

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00:24:27,683 --> 00:24:29,442
things are, tell us what bail
is.

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00:24:29,442 --> 00:24:32,690
Bail is a process of release.
Why do we have a thing called

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00:24:32,690 --> 00:24:34,347
bail?
It's so we can release people.

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00:24:34,347 --> 00:24:37,304
Just like why do we have a thing
called no bail? It's so we can

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00:24:37,304 --> 00:24:41,232
have a process to detain people.
And finally, the law and history come

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00:24:41,232 --> 00:24:44,456
together to give us those three
Ms. That tell us what we're

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00:24:44,456 --> 00:24:48,394
trying to do, throughout this whole
process is to maximize release,

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and at the same time, maximize public
safety and court appearance.

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00:24:51,402 --> 00:24:54,372
Kathryn: Alright, well then. let's talk
really briefly about what are the

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00:24:54,372 --> 00:24:57,886
major problems, then, with secured money
bonds in the United States.

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And what are they, Leland?

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Leland: Well, really, we see problems
on both ends, but what isn't often

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00:25:01,737 --> 00:25:05,390
highlighted is the fact that money causes
as problem on the public safety

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00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:09,809
detention-end of things and an
example of this, a horrific and

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00:25:09,809 --> 00:25:12,999
telling example, is that in
Washington state a defendant

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00:25:12,999 --> 00:25:16,376
charged with child rape and assault
on an officer was able to

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00:25:16,376 --> 00:25:21,397
post $190,000 bond. Was able to obtain
his release through that

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00:25:21,397 --> 00:25:26,685
posting process, obtained firearms,
drove to a local coffee shop,

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00:25:26,685 --> 00:25:30,567
and unfortunately, murdered
four police officers.

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00:25:31,074 --> 00:25:33,664
Kathryn: And that happens more
than just in that particular

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00:25:33,664 --> 00:25:36,673
case, it happens all too often. And
there's just the propensity for that

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00:25:36,673 --> 00:25:39,730
to continue to happen.
So, we have talked about the

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00:25:39,730 --> 00:25:45,056
problems with money bail and the
consequences of money bail.

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00:25:45,056 --> 00:25:48,138
So, what are some of the solutions and
what are some of the working

436
00:25:48,138 --> 00:25:49,987
models that we're gonna focus
on, Tim?

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00:25:50,103 --> 00:25:53,011
Tim: You know, I hope people focus a little
on Washington D.C. because

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00:25:53,011 --> 00:25:55,074
if you look at everything and
what we are trying to achieve,

439
00:25:55,074 --> 00:25:59,598
they have created an in or out
system that's based with no

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00:25:59,598 --> 00:26:02,844
money, no secured money, and
they get phenomenal outcomes.

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00:26:03,106 --> 00:26:05,127
Kathryn: Alright, and as we
conclude this segment on the

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00:26:05,127 --> 00:26:09,078
history and the law, what are
some of the take-aways from this

443
00:26:09,078 --> 00:26:10,160
segment, Leland?

444
00:26:10,336 --> 00:26:12,984
Leland: Well, one of the
main take-aways is that pretrial

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00:26:12,984 --> 00:26:15,837
justice systems really need to
advance all three of those

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00:26:15,837 --> 00:26:19,483
purposes of bail, all three of
those Ms to align properly with

447
00:26:19,483 --> 00:26:20,515
history and the law.

448
00:26:20,731 --> 00:26:21,795
Kathryn: And, what would you add, Tim?

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00:26:21,795 --> 00:26:24,461
Tim: You know, the legal--the law
and history does not have to be daunting.

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You can read about it in two
papers by the NIC, one is

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called "Fundamentals of Bail" and
the other is "Money as a Criminal

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00:26:30,235 --> 00:26:32,829
Justice Stakeholder." And if you
read those, I think you'll know

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enough to get by, in terms of,
both.

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Kathryn: Okay. And incidentally,
if you look in your participant

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00:26:37,038 --> 00:26:39,917
guide there are links to those
resources in your participant guide,

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00:26:39,917 --> 00:26:42,716
as well. And I think, you guys, have
done a great job in

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00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:45,015
teaching people a lot about
the history of bail and the

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00:26:45,015 --> 00:26:47,641
law, that I'm sure a lot of people
did not know before

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00:26:47,641 --> 00:26:51,886
this short segment. So, thank you
for that. In a moment, we'll take what we

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00:26:51,886 --> 00:26:54,965
learned in segment one about some
of the foundational principals

461
00:26:54,965 --> 00:26:58,115
and what we learned about the
history of bail and law in this segment.

462
00:26:58,115 --> 00:27:01,408
And then, we're gonna apply it to some
operational issues. In the next segment,

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00:27:01,408 --> 00:27:06,145
we're gonna focus on the elements of a
high-functioning pretrial

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00:27:06,145 --> 00:27:08,986
justice system. But first, we hear
from professionals who

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00:27:08,986 --> 00:27:13,141
comment on what is meant by
pretrial justice and how they

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00:27:13,141 --> 00:27:17,079
are building high-functioning
pretrial justice systems.

467
00:27:18,163 --> 00:27:22,609
[music]

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00:27:22,975 --> 00:27:29,109
Joel: So, pretrial justice can be defined
as enhancing public safety, enhancing court

469
00:27:29,109 --> 00:27:32,578
appearance, enhancing release
rates for the jail using our

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00:27:32,578 --> 00:27:37,194
resources wisely, preserving
constitutional rights of the

471
00:27:37,194 --> 00:27:43,694
defendant, and also, protecting
public safety and providing the

472
00:27:43,694 --> 00:27:47,172
courts with some reasonable
assurance that this defendant is

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00:27:47,172 --> 00:27:48,165
going to appear again.

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00:27:48,933 --> 00:27:53,632
Chief Justice Daniels:  Among the things
we're looking at in deciding how we

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00:27:53,632 --> 00:27:58,709
can make more principled evidence-based
decisions for release. Once we get

476
00:27:58,709 --> 00:28:04,185
away from this artificial, ineffective,
unprincipled way of using how

477
00:28:04,185 --> 00:28:07,550
much money you have or how much
money you can get or what kind

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00:28:07,550 --> 00:28:12,143
of deal on payments you can
make the bail bondsman as a

479
00:28:12,143 --> 00:28:13,913
condition of getting released.

480
00:28:13,913 --> 00:28:16,682
Tomaudrie: I'm glad we're finally
able to pull ourselves up and

481
00:28:16,682 --> 00:28:21,574
sit at the table and discuss
better ways of making our

482
00:28:21,574 --> 00:28:25,681
criminal justice system more efficient.
They actually-- We have the credibility

483
00:28:25,681 --> 00:28:28,699
that maybe we didn't have years ago
because we didn't have the

484
00:28:28,699 --> 00:28:32,512
evidence, you know, based off --
we didn't have a validated risk

485
00:28:32,512 --> 00:28:35,455
assessment tool, you know, years ago when I
first started.

486
00:28:35,455 --> 00:28:41,411
We didn't have the data to back
up what we saw on our end in the

487
00:28:41,411 --> 00:28:43,765
criminal justice system and what
would work and what wouldn't

488
00:28:43,765 --> 00:28:47,616
work. So,
I just think it's awesome that counties

489
00:28:47,616 --> 00:28:51,859
across the country are actually
able to collaborate together to

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00:28:51,859 --> 00:28:54,154
make the criminal justice system
better.

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00:28:54,178 --> 00:29:06,410
[music]