Transcript

6 May 2025, 08:54am

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 0:21

Is the transcription working?

Susan 28:51

Hi, are you there, Thomas?

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 28:55

Hey, Susan. Lovely to speak to you. Oh, my. I thought it wasn't gonna work out.

Susan 28:58

I'm very sorry, but given we've had an election, my inbox was just mad this morning

with people needing to speak to us politically about the impact of reports that are

being launched, so apologies for that.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 29:12

No worries. I can imagine. I was just like I I I sent out an e-mail even wondering if

maybe you would want to do it over text. If like the interview doesn't fit because I've

been really trying to.

Susan 29:22

Yeah, that's no.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 29:24

OK. So can we can we start instantly is it? Is that right with you? Let me double check

everything is transcribing.

Susan 29:26

Yep.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 29:32

Your transcription OK.

So.

I mean, we're talking about the trade in climate policy.

So this is the same day.

Just like and I assume you know this we're speaking about.

Obviously, the goal of a citizens assembly is somewhat to capture demographic of

the population.

Within that particular assembly, where any groups glaringly missing from your guys's

assembly that you can remember and did it, did it cause any issues?

Susan 30:04

No.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 30:05

No. OK, perfect.

In terms of a quality of voice, and when you look at it from the aspect of like maybe

the less educated or the politically less engaged.

Did everyone feel like they could speak up during the assembly?

Susan 30:23

Definitely, yeah, yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 30:26

Perfect.

Everything from my understanding, well, not everything, maybe, but a lot of it was

done over zoom. From my understanding. Is that correct?

Susan 30:40

The learning phase was conducted over zoom and the deliberations and

recommendations stage were in person.

The learning phase was conducted over zoom because it was a National Assembly

and there was insufficient funding to pay for travel to get people there, but also the

other reason for doing it over zoom was because we were able to record and track

demographics as well. So we have, like very detailed analysis.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 30:49

OK.

Susan 31:11

Rather than facilitate a notes.

That we were able to use then in terms of bringing the learning to some form of

consolidation prior to them going into deliberation. So we could show where there

was consensus and where there was differences of opinion so that they could use

that around exploring the trade-offs in the deliberation stage.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 31:33

Seems so. And can I ask, do you reckon that?

Could have been any less engaging in zoom rather than in person, or so there was

kind of a sacrifice made for like efficiency and participation over, like really much

deeper kind of learning.

Susan 31:51

I definitely don't think it went. I don't think it's a deeper learning that you get on

online or in person, but I think you know their relationships are built more in person

than they are online. But that said, we use very small groups online, so we only use

groups of like five or six. Everybody gets an opportunity, we delivered Chromebooks.

And trained people on how to use those. And so now and the other thing.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 32:16

Yeah, I saw that.

OK.

Susan 32:37

To prevent that kind of you know presentation and talk and presentation at talk, we

do lots of fun activities intermittently between those. So it keeps it very.

Very engaging. So we don't have any problems with engagement online in the way

that other agencies seem to report.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 32:58

And can I ask?

For the kind of content that was presented to the participants.

Was there, did they? Were they actually actively engaged in defining the issue of

climate change, or was that concept kind of like, presupposed? And then that was

just tackled?

Susan 33:12

It definitely didn't. Yeah, they didn't define the concept of climate change. There was

an assumption that climate change is happening and that the purpose of the

assembly was to what extent or what policy tools, if any, policy tools should be used,

trade policy tools to help with that. So you you may or may not know from the report

or if you've read any of it, but.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 33:28

Sure.

Yeah, I've read all of it.

Susan 33:39

There's no there's no climate change policy tools that have got teeth, but there are

trade policy tools that have a lot of teeth in government and the way the

government runs. So it was a kind of how can we use those tools to impact climate

change.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 33:47

Yeah.

And question 6.

Do you think most of the content which within the recommendations that the

assembly eventually like kind of got to was dictated by the information that was

provided? So because when you look at the report, it's kind of like it's somewhat

reflects a lot of the topics which were examined. So do you think if different topics

were examined, there could have been different recommendations or do you think

that kind of like aligned with your guys's expectations or?

Susan 34:23

I think the the challenge with the oversight group was if you looked at something

like EVs or.

Other sort of trade food policy or those sorts of things you could end up with a set

of recommendations that focus solely on electric vehicles or something like that. So

the important thing there was.

How to use those trade policy tools, if at all, and those policy tools were then

developed?

Not the tools themselves, but after quite a few oversight group meetings,

discussions, project team, it was like hang on a minute. We can't. We shouldn't run

this assembly through case studies or we're going to get a set of recommendations

that are about case studies, which may or may not be have any longevity depending

on policy or. And as you can see now in terms of global change.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 35:16

Yeah.

Susan 35:20

Whereas if you focus on the type of policy, tool, subsidies, tariffs.

That kind of thing. Then you can get a better insight into what's palatable from a

community when using those tools. Otherwise you're just going to get a preference

of whether I want to drive an electric vehicle or not and those sorts of things. So and

that would that wouldn't have given it any gravitas. So we needed the people that

commissioned it was a university and a think tank. So they needed to know.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 35:39

Yeah, yeah.

Susan 35:51

What was the public's views around the policy tools before they start to influence

those who shape policy?

And you couldn't have expected that the following year we're now having a global

conversation about tariffs when this time last year, people wouldn't be able to

articulate what the tariff was.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 36:07

Yeah, had no idea.

Yeah.

Susan 36:11

So we met with the group this week. Last week, we met with the Citizens Assembly

again and just said, you know, we gave them an opportunity to ask some questions

about what the global situation is and the tariffs and how they've received that. And

you just heard everyone going, oh, my God. When I heard it on the news, I'm like, I

don't want a tariff is, I know what a tariff is. And I can think.

I could able to understand it in a way that they just wouldn't have been able to do

that before. So so I think yes, the policy, yes, the recommendations will be policy tool

related because that is what we wanted some recommendations around around

those policy tools so that we could see.

Whether there was an appetite to use any particular tool over another and what we

needed to consider.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 36:57

Ask so I guess what I really want to ask is beyond the recommendations they made

and like the immediate outcomes that came from this citizens assembly were they're

kind of like.

Impacts that were felt within either the think tank or the university or in like the I

guess broader landscape that surrounded it did the assembly.

Susan 37:18

Yes, definitely so.

There hasn't been a citizens assembly on this topic before.

The Witch magazine had done some work on trade policy and I think someone else

had done so was a consortium of people have done a bit of community engagement

around trade policy, but never like this. So it's the first of its kind and it was created

or commissioned because.

Policy makers avoid you talking about trade policy to the public, then.

I mean, now we're in a different situation, right? So because it's too complex, people

won't be able to understand it. And what's happened as a result of this is that the

trade justice movement and Queen Mary's University have been able to talk to

politicians. They've been able to talk to policy creation teams, policy development

teams. They use it in their own work. So.

One of the commissioners works for the World Trade Organisation does work there.

Others are so in all the networks, the oversight group are using it in their networks.

So it's the first time they've got something thorough and concrete that says if you're

going to do this, this is where there's public appetite. And if that and where there's

not. So yeah, its impact. They've been doing lots of work, different policy briefs being

developed as a result of it.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 38:40

That's it's OK. So it's basically like kind of informed a lot of the main players within

that landscape, what the public's view is on that. So the recommendations have kind

of like translated.

To such a right, how do you say such information for those bodies?

Susan 39:00

Yes. Yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 39:01

K awesome.

Susan 39:03

And politicians, it was launched in Parliament afterwards, so there was Parliamentary

cross party parliamentary support for it and commitment to take it forward. So yeah,

politically and in that process it's been received very positively.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 39:18

Right. So throughout that process, did you guys kind of?

Feel that sometimes when you'd be.

Interacting with kind of these like larger, maybe governmental organisations that

they had more bureaucratic and like political, more bureaucratic support and like

political experience.

Susan 39:42

The people we were talking to.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 39:44

Rather than not the people we were talking to during the assembly, but as like after

the recommendations were made and you guys plan to kind of bring this towards.

Greater organised, like maybe like.

Larger organisations and the actual government that it feel like they had better

political experience and bureaucratic support, or they didn't feel like an even playing

field for.

The kind of organisers of the assembly.

Susan 40:08

So the organisers of the assembly as in the university and the trade justice

movement are very well versed in. They're well versed in political navigating

politically and understanding who holds holds power, where that power is used. So

they're very well versed in that and they were able to tap into.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 40:15

Yeah.

Susan 40:32

The those power networks in politics, so I don't think that. So in a way.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 40:37

OK.

Susan 40:40

So like I've just finished one for a local government.

Yeah, I I don't know. No, I guess I don't. If the question is, were the people

presenting the findings more or less politically astute than the people that were

receiving the findings? Is that what you mean or?

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 40:59

I mean it more as in once they've been put once they've presented the findings and

try to kind of like push that narrative, have they been somewhat inhibited by the

bureaucratic kind of libido of the government.

Susan 41:07

OK.

Yes, yes. Inasmuch as it doesn't always, recommendations don't always sit with one

particular department, and so.

Every policy is going to have consequences on others, and of course, there had been

an election and then we've got this situation. So I think to get an insight into that,

you'd be good to speak to.

The people that are talking to so my role in that then it like I do the presentations

with them and stuff, but they're doing the lobbying and the.

The campaigning to get this into policy, so they'd probably be good. Good for you to

speak to one of those two on that, I think.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 41:57

Yeah, that's interesting. I I mean, I I I think to be honest, the the calling you provided

is enough for my sake. So I'm OK with that also bit of a time crunch, but thank you.

All right, there's no, we should. Sorry. Kind of a more general question like

throughout the process, do you think there was ever kind of a conflict between

different groups in terms of deliberation, like when the deliberation started or were

so they were less empathetic towards each other sometimes, as in, they couldn't

really empathise with someone else's situation, maybe as a minority or maybe as like

Susan 42:22

Definitely.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 42:35

Uh disenfranchise group?

Susan 42:38

Massive. Massive.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 42:39

Yeah. OK.

Susan 42:41

So we had people, mainly it was their political views.

That played out. They'd stark opposition political views.

And.

Very different life experiences, not just because of where in the UK they lived, but

they're different social class, different experiences.

Different ideas, different identities that are different forms of intersectionality, really.

In all of those.

So debate was.

Good. Yeah. You know, it was really quite challenging for some people when. Yeah,

it's exactly what you would want to see in an assembly, to be honest. There was no,

they weren't following each other by any stretch of the imagination. They were

definitely sort of pushing. And in fact, my favourite bit about that assembly was at

the end, we had one particular.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 43:23

OK.

Susan 43:43

Participant who had very strong views right from the beginning.

And he came up to me at the end. We were in a very big university hall. They'd all

finished their deliberations, made the recommendations and everything else.

You won't remember him walking down the centre of that hall and he gave me a big

high five and he said never in a million years did I think we could come up with

shared recommendations that my views could be acceptable to someone else in this

room and vice versa, he said. You'd think our politics is set up to oppose us, wouldn't

you? You'd never think we could come to some form of consensus.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 44:21

OK.

And can I ask next?

From from your experience within citizens assemblies in particular, obviously with

this one, how much do people actually engage with the reading packages? Because it

it seems like one of the issues because sometimes they're super detailed kind of

over, I guess jargon filled like how was your guys's set out and what was kind of the

plan there?

Susan 44:48

I always work no matter what I do in dialogue and I work on the basis if you want

them to read, it needs to be factored into the session all the time. Commitment that

you give them for sure and you need to be able to check that they've read it so.

You need to be able to do some sort of. Either they provide comment or feedback

online.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 45:09

Mm hmm.

Susan 45:10

Through a survey, so every read section thing and tell us what you think about it.

What questions arise for you so you can do it like that in this particular one.

They had pre reading and then we dedicated a session to looking at that pre reading

and what questions emerged from it.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 45:28

Yeah.

Susan 45:29

And then there was the consolidation of thinking, because it was a very complex, you

know, two complex issues being rolled into one assembly.

That people may or may not know much about. So when we did the analysis of the

learning phase, there was a document written for that and we went through that

document with them and then we role played it to bring that to life. So.

We as a team took on different roles and showed how that reading.

Laid out in practise for different people in different positions. So I think you can't.

You have to be very careful not to rely on too much written work unless you go so

another one I'm doing now. There's two big documents informing it, so I make sure

every session, the page number of the document that this relates to is specified and

that they can go straight to it. So I think you have to be careful with written

documentation.

Not least because not everybody is literate.

So we use very creative ways as well to bring people in. So for instance not on this.

So on this assembly we did some visioning stuff and very practical, which wasn't

word based, but on another one I've got an autistic person there who who draws his

response and then he gives me a vision, a vocal note that tells me about this visual

image and stuff. So.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 46:30

Mm hmm.

That's super interesting.

Susan 46:55

We're very, very conscious that you don't over rely on the written word, but also

acknowledge that there are some people there that want to read the whole policy, so

it's making sure.

I suppose.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 47:07

And that ever create like an asymmetry or was that was it? Was that always like, OK in

the discussions was there ever like there'd feel like certain groups might have had an

inferior understanding so they couldn't push their? No.

Susan 47:20

No, no. And so we're very clear that we all have different learning styles. So I'm a

teacher by trade like a. So I'm looking at things every session I'm looking at as a

Lesson plan. What I want people to learn. How am I going to differentiate between

people that can't read this and people that are highly articulate might have a PhD

and they want to might get into the detail. But I think the art of that is in really good

facilitation. You make sure that people understand we're here equal.

Those are equal. We might have better ways of articulating it, or different ways of

articulating it, I should say. But actually our experiences are all equally valid, and we

need to take them all into account. So I think the written word is a challenge, but I

don't think it's difficult to overcome. I think you just have to make sure you factor in

the time and it's the time that's the big challenge with these, I think.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 48:11

Awesome. OK, so question 12, did participants have a clear understanding about the

conditions under which they were participating? Was it like completely laid out to

them?

Susan 48:23

In as much as what the scope of it and yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 48:26

Yeah. And like kind of. Yeah, it's whatever they're like, the structure, the kind of.

Goal of the Citizens Assembly, OK.

Susan 48:37

Yeah. So they know all that. We do that at the start of every session.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 48:42

So as I understand it now, there was quite a bit of like.

How do they say it?

The results that were created by the Assembly did garner some sort of like publicity

after, but was there any publicity during the actual assembly, like they didn't? No.

Susan 49:03

No, because we had no resource for comms.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 49:04

OK.

OK, OK.

I couldn't tell exactly. I mean, there was a transcript.

So there's a quote from the report that I read, where occasionally the participants

speaking cannot be identified from the transcript, in which case the identifier

becomes a generic X. Do you have any idea how often this happened, and do you

think this would happen at all if they were in person? And I guess that obviously that

is probably a no, and then with such a transcript error kind of impede your guys's

findings ever? Or was it not about?

What type of person was saying? What was it more you guys were trying to capture,

like the general message of the demographic?

Susan 49:52

I think there's a lot in that question. So first of all, it was a collage of Lisa is very few

times.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 49:55

Yeah, sorry.

Susan 49:59

We were using zoom transcripts and to help us so we don't. We're looking in the

assemblies for generic messages and we're looking for specific differences of ideas

so that you can start to dig a bit deeper in those differences of ideas and not focus

solely on the consensus.

We want to get into the trade-offs and the difficult conversations, so that's the

purpose of them. What the reason we did that on the analysis is because.

It was a university and we wanted to create an academic paper from it, so we wanted

to make sure that we had all of those transcripts and could see whether there was

any demographic difference in what people were saying so.

So we don't always do that. We we try to do that now in recommendations so.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 50:51

OK.

Susan 50:55

Making sure that we can track who voted in particular ways to see whether there was

any demographic change, but in that one, no, it was done just purely to see if there

was any geographical. So is it different in Scotland, Ireland or Wales, that sort of

thing.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 51:00

Yeah.

Susan 51:13

But no, it was only on a few occasions it was just poor transcript.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 51:18

So and also during the Sunday, did the participants fear like fairly compensated from

understanding it was like 500 lbs. And then conceptually that do you reckon they had

like a majority of them had a good time? I did see some polling but like not polling

but but I mean I just want to hear it from you in particular.

Susan 51:36

Yeah, they loved it and.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 51:38

OK.

Susan 51:40

Yeah, really loved it. So they.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 51:40

And monetarily as well, like they were OK with the amount.

Susan 51:43

Monetarily, yeah, they were happy with the money. I think I find all the time in these

is they say at the end the money wasn't as important as it was, but it was important

at the time. It's only at the end that they go. Actually, I've had a great time. I've

learned so much. So the transaction.

Is they come for the money?

Because they've got no idea if it's going to be used if their data might be a waste of

time, right? But then when they've enjoyed it and they've learnt so much, they do the

learning again because they're just like they do it for free. But I mean, it would be

interesting because we're using that group, we're following up. So we're doing some,

we're doing some follow up advocacy training with them. We're doing some work

with them to see how they want to take it forward in their local area.

So yeah, we had twenty of them turn up for that last week.

So yeah, and that's a year, a year later.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 52:34

OK.

And that was, and that was for free. They turned out for free.

Susan 52:39

Ask for free, yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 52:41

OK, that's it's really cool.

Susan 52:43

And they want to come to. So the question was we can do something. We have a

limited budget to do something with you, you know, what do you want us? What

would work best for you? You we can meet in Parliament and work with politicians.

But we haven't. We can pay travel, but we can't pay overnight costs and that sort of

thing. So I can't give you the final data on that because it's just being processed now

about what? What we'll end up doing.

But they were really happy to do lots for nothing, just keen to be active and and

make sure that they're learning is used.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 53:19

Can I ask another monetary question? So obviously, certain organisations.

And institutions, I guess, made concessions monetarily to kind of activate this

programme. Do they feel fairly compensated or and and is there going to be kind of

like future work or it was just kind of A1 go like this is we wanted to do this now and

maybe we won't do it again.

Susan 53:44

I don't think I could answer for him on that, to be honest.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 53:47

That's true, yeah.

Susan 53:49

It was funded through a number of different funding mechanisms, and then it was

the university that commissioned it with the with a campaign group. So I think

there'd probably be all sorts of different views on that. But what I do know is they

would do it again in a flash. They loved it. And there was some cynicism beforehand

about whether this would be, whether we can do this with the public. But they loved

it. But it's better than it performed better than they thought it was.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 54:18

Great. Great.

Were there moments where unpredictable costs were incurred, or was it kind of like

fed out already?

Susan 54:28

And I think the biggest unpredictable cost in in assemblies is how much time is

needed for each element of it so.

The scoping stage for instance.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 54:42

Yeah.

Susan 54:42

You could pin the scope down in one session with an oversight group, or you might

need two or three, and in this case it needed quite a few conversations. But the

other, the other resource, really that's huge, is even if someone's commissioning it.

They still have to do quite a bit of work 'cause. You're asking for some information

and facts and details and policies and stuff. So I think there is always hidden budgets,

the, the, the budgets that are cited by some of the coordinating bodies like involve, I

think I'll probably accurate budgets if they take into account everything but.

People wouldn't pay that, so you're forever the people that are delivering it.

Are always delivering something for nothing.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 55:33

OK, great question 19, can I ask?

There's a quote with many participants expect express that they believed a climate

change to be an existential threat and a time for substantive action is running out.

Do you think such a political sort of citizens assembly could happen in a country

where maybe there's less of an, I guess understanding of the the consequences that

climate change does have and is kind of this political interest crucial to citizen

assembly? Or is it transferable to different countries easily? If you just have that

deliberation phase?

Susan 56:12

And I think the latter even more reason if there is no sort of existing situation, I think

people, you know, they're a great learning tool both for the people that Commission

it and the people that are participating in it. And it just give you a sense of how

important is this or not, you know, for people. And I think so long as you

recompense them, they might just come for the money and they're. But in in the

process of coming for money.

They're able to contribute to an important policy area.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 56:44

Awesome and.

Susan 56:44

And give an insight into, you know, policy makers to know whether people just don't

think it's really important or whether they think it's super important.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 56:52

And along those same lines of transferability, do you think there's maybe, I mean, I've

tried to read up on it, but it's it's it's kind of hard to find, but within citizens

assemblies, is there, it seems like there's a lack of them and maybe less democratic or

even, you know, bordering authoritarian countries. Do you think that's kind of a

transferability issue of them? I mean, inherently as a democratic kind of function?

Susan 57:18

Yeah, I mean I xº

Well, then, they're good for that, aren't they? Good for, like, you know, just. OK, let

me get a feel for whether these things are going to land. This policy is going to land

and how it's going to land, I think is important and especially when you see.

How many vote for which particular recommendation?

That's super important because you can see where you're not getting at, where it's

not going to land well.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 58:01

For question 21, can I ask have associated actors attempted to replicate or been

inspired by this assembly? Because obviously it's been it's recent, so maybe not but.

And yeah, that's that's that question.

Susan 58:15

Associated actors, did you say?

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 58:17

Yeah, maybe that's not the correct phrasing, but has basically this kind of assembly

created any sort of cascading into like other.

Assemblies doing maybe a similar thing or other organisations doing similar research

do you think?

Susan 58:32

I don't know the answer to that.

And I don't know of any other more trade and climate assemblies happening.

Yeah, I don't know that.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 58:43

OK. And then can I ask can the opposite way were you guys inspired by anything like

similar, it could be more general or it could be more specific?

Susan 58:55

Well, I've held assemblies before, so I guess I'm bringing learning from previous

assemblies that I've conducted and you know things that work or don't work. So

yeah, but.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 59:06

Do you have any? Do you have any specifics on like methods like maybe that like

from certain assembly that you like you saw really worked well there and you guys

decided to carry it over?

Susan 59:14

Yeah, I did. I did the Newnham climate change assembly and in Newham English

language was.

Was a second or third language for a lot of the participants in there, and there was

some illiteracy in there. So I I I'm an appreciative inquiry practitioner and like I said, I

come from a learning background as well so I introduced appreciative inquiry

techniques to that to create a vision and it was a complete leveller for those that.

You know.

English was their first language, or they were highly literate, so I always use that.

I always use some form of role play. I don't get the participants to role play as they

do do some role play, but I also get the team to role play as well rather than give

that. So I do that and I also I didn't bring it into the trade and climate one, but I also

do another ones. I bring in budgeting as well. So actual costs of things and then we

do exercises around budget so it focuses the mind on what's possible when it's a

budget related issue like if.

The Council, when I'm doing or something like.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:00:29

And this time, that wasn't really considered because it was more about like the

actual, like, trade policy, right. Yeah. But was it ever? Was it ever thought about that,

like, how realistic these possibilities are or was it? I mean, obviously quite a lot of

them are not realistic, but it's like was it was it was it more conceptual.

Susan 1:00:33

Policy.

No, they were always asking about how realistic things were in that one and we had

throughout the process we had some academics that would give a sense of.

Both two or three perspectives on any particular issue that they were raising, so you

know how doable is this and then you get well, they'd give two or three perspectives

on that so.

So yeah, the how practical something is is the core of a lot of the assemblies I run.

People don't want to be making recommendations on the back of something which

really is never going to be done. Having said that.

Other people in the assembly might want to be more ambitious, so in this one it was

very much we want to act immediately from some people and that needed to be

done irrespective of how much it costs. This needs to happen. It's an existential

threat to others saying no, we've got to think about this because, you know, money's

resource, we're in a recession, blah, blah, blah. So. So, yeah, they're always talking

about it, even if it's not.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:01:50

OK.

Susan 1:01:54

As dedicated activity.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:01:57

Besides, it's a question 23. Besides all the successes of the innovation of citizens

assemblies, which is like honestly, a long kind of participatory budgeting for up my

like learning of reinventing a democratic innovations is by far my favourites, which is

why I decided to do it. Do you think there are any like glaring issues with the

concept?

Susan 1:02:17

Yeah. So I'm participating budgeting practitioner and I would say the same issues are

the same for assemblies. People need to act on them. So Commission something

which you're willing to act on.

And I guess that's the big and follow up from. So how do you get people to stay

involved? So I'm part of a network developing some standards around.

Deliberation, which isn't quite as strong as assembly, so it might be shorter than an

assembly, but I think these things are complex. You know, you Commission an

assembly when it's difficult and it's complex. You don't Commission it for something

easy, so it needs the time it needs the resource it so glaring emissions.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:02:54

Yeah.

Yes, that's fine, but that's OK.

Susan 1:03:07

Yeah, yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:03:09

Can I ask as well?

Do you think there are maybe like anything you would do differently or would you

maybe use a different mechanism?

Which is conducted at the OR would it still be citizens assembly?

Susan 1:03:26

I think if you've got the resource and it's sufficiently challenging the assembly, a 45

hour assembly, not these, you know, smaller versions. I think you just can't get

through what you need to get through really.

At the more time you can have, the better it is because you can cast. You can scaffold

people's learning and you can take them through easily, whereas if the shorter time

you're rushing people through and it can feel difficult to people.

But what would I do differently?

Felicia, I think I've kind of got a formula going for mine now where I've built on my

own learning and know what works and what doesn't work. So probably apart from

the like bigger comms piece which we never get involved in, but I think having the

comms piece around it can be quite helpful. It can always also be a challenge. And

the other thing which is coming out of learning again it's resource based but.

Could you could you do pre engagement more pre engagement work around it in

order to get a wider public view to be considered by that microcosm of the public in

that process, which we do sometimes through polis or.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:04:30

Mm hmm.

Susan 1:04:40

Through in one I've just done, it was a desk space review.

Of outcomes of engagement and stuff. So yeah, there's some some of those things

which are resource dependent but with a typical resource and a typical 45 hour

assembly, I think I'll find I've got my formula right for that now.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:05:02

OK. And can I ask as well, do you think like inherently citizens assemblies kind of like

there's a reason a lot of people reject them is because they are scared of the deep

deliberation that kind of goes on or do you think it's more of a there isn't enough

monetary compensation or what do you think is kind of the problem with the the

reason there is so much rejection?

Make.

Susan 1:05:26

I think it's resource to be honest and transparency, so resource if you're going to

Commission one, you need quite a bit of resource financially to to make sure you got

someone independent to deliver it, but you need the resource internally for your

teams to be able to give what what those people need as part of their evidence

giving.

And then the transparency side of things, especially when you're dealing with

political organisations like councils, they're used to spinning.

And of course this doesn't allow for spin, so they you then have to have much fuller,

more difficult conversations with policy makers, which they can't spin you on.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:06:10

OK.

Susan 1:06:11

And so I think that's that's probably why people find it difficult. They're not

uses. So this is a really important point for me as part of why people might

reject them. So you've got all the resource and that sort of thing, but.

We also need the public to react differently.

So we've, you know, we're set up and I'll just talking from Auk perspective.

We're set up for things to only happen when people get to the point of

protest and they get to the point of objection in that way and the public.

Are we're designed to. If you want change, you need to become more activist

in your.

An oppositionalist in things and I think we need to do some work with the

public to say.

When things like this happen, how do you receive them and how? How do

you accept them and how do you participate? There was a dog, there was a an

art publication written back in the times of big society in the UK and it was

really good. It was saying we need to be capable of participating as a citizenry

and not just jumping straight to.

Activist opposition list style engagement.

And if we could get more of that, then I think people might be more inclined

to to go for assemblies. But I think our politicians are so.

Battered by.

People. Activists.

Against them that they're worried all the time, that everything they say is

going to be used against them. And I think that just needs tweaking. We need,

we need the activism because we won't get changed without activism, but we

need our politicians to feel more comfortable in telling the truth than they can

at the moment, because immediately they tell the truth. People are back at

them, whether that's media activists that you know and it's not always

informed. So I feel that that is a big.

A big reason for people to not want to do them because they might have to

then.

They're going to come under criticism, maybe.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:08:20

OK. And can I ask like kind of one last two questions. So within the document they

say some members often guaranteed towards broad ideas rather than technical

detail.

Did you find this to be like? How would you? How would I say inhibiting I guess of

the recommendations? Or are they always somewhat find like eventually the

technical aspect of it?

Susan 1:08:45

And I think it varies on the assembly, to be honest. I've just done one on travel and

transport for climate change.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:08:49

I I I mean it for this one, I mean, I mean it for this one for the one we're discussing

about thread policy.

Susan 1:08:52

So for this one I think, yeah, I think they didn't need to get into technicality that

much. They needed to understand the different types of policies, which policies they

thought might be better in terms of leveraging change for climate change, how they

could be used. So they didn't need, you know, a very detailed technical knowledge

of.

Policy implementation.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:09:16

Is it almost like the the recommendations were a secondary outcome of the the

desired outcome of this assembly and it was more to do with kind of? I mean I've I've

read that obviously before we'll in the paper, but just to hear it from you that like

they were trying to almost capture what the public thought about this like green

trade innovations and all this type of stuff strategy. Sorry.

Susan 1:09:40

Yeah. And and what they felt was sort of palatable to them. So you know, some of

those participants didn't know about the critical mineral issue that, you know, you

might have countries going to Nick other critical. Well, now look at Ukraine and the

states. Right. You're like some of these policies are happening and and your lay

person just wouldn't be aware of them. So yeah, it's.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:09:51

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Susan 1:10:05

It was very much about how do you feel about this? What are the pros and cons to

it? You know, you had a lot of.

What do you got? Nationalism in the room. And yeah, a lot of people there that were

less nationalist and more about.

Out of phrases? Probably but, but more bit inclusive and less border related thinking,

and so it's bringing those together. And I think I think this is what this one did is it

may it enabled people to understand what policies are there, how do they get used,

what is the impact on me then it led me in my house with my car with my.

Whatever. And what's the impact on other people and how do we feel about that for

other people? So yeah, they got, they got to learn about international policy impact

as well as international communities affected by it.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:11:02

And last question, they also question 27. They they spoke about the WTO processes

being too slow and complex to to address the urgent threat of climate change. Was

it ever brought up like that? There should be maybe. I mean, maybe there the actual

point of the assembly in terms of trade policy wasn't the number one way they could

somewhat like actually get towards solving.

Climate change did people ever show frustration with the concept of the assembly,

or were people kind of OK with it at all times?

Susan 1:11:40

So they thought.

They didn't realise there was no real teeth around climate policy.

That it would be, you know, this is our policy that we're aimed to get to it, but there

was no sort of, you know, you couldn't really hold anyone to account on it we're

seeing.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:11:56

Paris agreement. All this stuff, it's like.

Susan 1:11:58

Yeah, we're seeing that play out now as well, aren't we, Faraj? And all of that. So I

think they like the idea of some teeth. There's no point in having policy unless it's got

something. Some teeth in it and that sort of led them to be thinking about who has

got teeth. The World Trade Organisation. Have they really got teeth? Are they really

acting quick enough? Are they letting people get away with not doing so much? And

how? And so it was a frustration there that if you've got some teeth.

Why aren't you using it in a way that you should be using it?

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:12:30

OK.

But would you say?

Their desire for like a.

Mechanism which has a lot of teeth and a lot of like concrete kind of ability do do

you think that was meant by?

The impacts that the citizens are sending, like initially generated or do you think it'll

be more likely met by like the long term impacts?

Susan 1:13:00

Yeah, it'll be long term impact. I mean, I think that the understanding of what they

think then needs to impact on World Trade Organisation politicians across the globe.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:13:12

Expand on that. The understanding of what they think.

What do you mean by that?

Susan 1:13:21

I think you're asking me.

When it comes to the World Trade Organisation, et cetera, did the assembly feel

they'd have impact on that? Yeah.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:13:33

Yeah, yeah.

Susan 1:13:36

And I would say they had a very healthy cynicism for the extent to which their voices

would impact anyone in policy.

And that's why they ended up writing that statement.

So we weren't intending to write a statement about their position, but it was out of a

conversation about, well, what if people, people need to understand our, our feeling

about this before they read our recommendations. And So what we took was an

elected representative from each of the groups, and we created a smaller group and

they created that statement that prefaced all of the recommendations because they

felt that.

They felt their voice may not get heard.

And that's why they're coming back to us as well, saying we will continue to be

involved because we want our voices to be heard. We think this is important for

democracy, that our microcosm of very, very different experiences and views needs

to be heard by those in decision making positions.

But they had a healthy cynicism that it might not.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:14:46

K That's that's great. I think that's it. Thank you so much, Susan, for the time.

Susan 1:14:51

OK. You're welcome. And what you're doing with it, sorry, Thomas. Remind me again

what you.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:14:56

So Buffet, Paolo has a website that he works with people participated. Have you

heard of it? It's like and this is for my final assignment. So I'm writing like a four to

6000 word.

Document on this particular assembly. The name is like embarrassing that keeps

escaping me, but I remember in the beginning I felt like maybe I just like presented

that I was, that I didn't know anything about it. I've read all the papers I've I've really

looked into it the last couple of weeks. I've really enjoyed it.

But yeah, that's why I've I decided to. Well, I asked to to interview you.

Susan 1:15:31

I mean that's that's going to be great and I think the other people involved, like the

academics, are going to be really interested in that. So if you want to run it past any

of US 3 before you go live with it, then they will all be willing to look at that.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:15:45

Perfect. Thank you so much. Maybe maybe I'll send you like part of it or something

and you can check if everything actually corresponds to. Especially I'm I'm trying to

within the documents they, they they obviously talk about the the structure of the

Citizens Assembly. But I I'm somewhat trying to like gather what was.

Exactly intended. And then what? Just kind of came out out of, like, kind of like a

moment of maybe innovation or something. It seems like this is probably the the one

we just talked about with the the statement.

Was probably the best example of that, but that's like kind of what I'm that's what

I'm super interested in, honestly, is like there's a lot of structure and democratic

innovations. But I love when the people really interact with it and they actually make

it their own.

Susan 1:16:19

Mm hmm.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely so. So if they, if you've got any questions about that, you

know.

You see some things I will take for granted because I deliver these all the time.

And talking to one of the other colleagues who have never done this before, they

might have something different to share. You know that from me because they

might have noticed something and thought, oh, wow, that's amazing. Whereas I

might have been able to predict that was going to happen. So it might be worth.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:17:02

Maybe you could relay me their information in like an e-mail if that would be OK,

because I'll I'll. I'll talk to Paolo if I'm even allowed to do more than one interview

because there was a whole, like, ergo ethical stuff and all this. I don't, I don't. I've

actually no idea how it works. But if I if I was able to and you gave me the detail, I

mean my my assignment's during 11 days, but I'll. I'll, I'll look into it.

Susan 1:17:16

OK.

So I'll drop him an e-mail now, just to say I've been interviewed by you, you're going

to write something up for participated.

It would be good to know were there any surprises for them around this outside of

structural processes? Are there any surprises, good and bad for them that would be

helpful to for learning? And then I'll copy them in. And then if they if they respond to

all, you'll see it immediately. If they're any response to me, I'll forward it to you.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:17:46

Yes.

Perfect. Thank you so much, Susan.

Susan 1:17:59

All right. You're welcome. See you. Bye. And you. Bye.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) 1:18:02

Have have a good day. Bye bye.

Tomas Pixa (tp5g22) stopped transcription