Comments on: No Man’s Land, and the Question of Paying to Win http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/ The PlayStation Home Magazine Fri, 13 Feb 2015 21:20:50 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.1.2 By: Prepper Update | Modern Survival Is Not A Kit http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-287870 Sat, 11 Jan 2014 08:32:59 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-287870 […] No Man's Land, and the Question of Paying to Win | HomeStation …http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/ […]

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By: KrazyFace http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-174614 Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:44:43 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-174614 Hahahahah! Wow we need an edit button; driving BEARDS!? What the hell!?

*AHEM*

“drive their herds to their farms”

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By: KrazyFace http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-174607 Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:39:14 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-174607 Yeap. Without a goal to work towards, what are you doing it for? There are extremely few games that have a purely fun element, I’m talking the sugar syrup of gaming nectar. Something you’ll play over and over, so much for so long that you lost your day off by accident. But that’s gold dust. What’s the next best thing then? The carrot in front of the donkey’s nose, that’s what.

And that’s what keeps people going back to Aurora or Novus, hell, WoW is built on it, so’s every Final Fantasy game, many games are and all sell well. If you dole out little treats (especially for repetitive behaviour) every so often, they’ll keep playing. Or in the case if animals and treats, keep doing what their told.

Veemee took a risk, they asked the gamer to take interest with no incentive, and they charged while doing so. By doing this they’ll no doubt get a sturdy stable of gamers who enjoy NML, but they’ll always be watching nDreams and Lockwood drive their beards to their farms.

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By: MsLiZa http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-174508 Wed, 18 Jul 2012 16:31:22 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-174508 Of course, it only takes a little to motivate the Home community.

How many people run around the Lockwood Showcase mindlessly for hours stomping eggs? The activity is hopelessly repetitive and gives me a headache after about 10 minutes. I gave up that one quickly. From what I’ve seen, the rewards aren’t even that great. But they’re free and people want them.

How much effort and expense would it have taken for Veemee to create some sort of rewards system for NML upon its release? You personally may not feel that rewards are an essential element of the game. Veemee, however, is trying to sell this game to the Home community at a premium price. Major blunder on their part.

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By: NorseGamer http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-174074 Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:28:26 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-174074 Regarding using examples which are clearly stated to be hypothetical: I’m done defending a point that in truth needs no defense. Move on.

I do agree with you that a Home game needs to do more than just try to compete with disc-based titles, because that’s a losing proposition; the more money is sunk into a game, the higher the buy-in has to be (either all at once or over time) to generate sufficient ROIC. Hence why I suspect there’s less resistance to cheap, limited-use commodities (Midway, Casino), because the consumer rarely bothers to add up what they’ve cumulatively spent. Cutthroats could have been a smash hit with this formula, as it’s a game that actually plays to Home’s strengths, but the pricing structure was egregiously high. Should that change, I suspect the game would be more successful at long-term user retention.

Rewards, it seems, are the easiest method of stretching out a game’s longevity in Home. The reward itself rarely seems to be worth it — with the exception of truly fantastic rewards such as the Aurora Champion’s Apartment, or rewards which take considerable skill such as the Midway jackets — but it’s an excuse to keep playing. And if it takes so little to motivate the Home audience, then it is a trend that will continue.

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By: Gary160974 http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-174070 Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:13:49 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-174070 whale economics are fine but using fabricated figures as example is what I was saying, can make the example look weighted towards one idea, it would be same problem if I wrote same figures down it would be weighted towards my idea, Its a new experience for home only users, its a poor shooter to us that play games outside of home. Home developers need to think what would make us play games on home versus playing games, before someone shouts the cost of a full game versus a home, I can buy several good shooters from the bargin bins that cost less than playing No Mans Land. Give Veemee 10 out of 10 for trying to make chicken soup out of chicken crap. Veemee could double they footfall there by putting rewards in, but probably dont want that to be the only reason why people play it, but they havent given anyone any other reason to play it though. You play it because you enjoy it. but unfortunately home games are rarely a success if they rely on people just enjoying them. because theres too much competition out there in the just enjoying yourself market

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By: NorseGamer http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173714 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:43:47 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173714 Considering the well-documented nature of power-law distribution economics (“whale economies”) in social games, Gary, I would hardly consider the hypothetical example used in this article to be egregiously slanted to establish a point that isn’t already well established elsewhere. Thanks.

I’d say Home can definitely support shooter games; SodiumOne, which is generally considered to be one of Home’s most successful games, is a third-person shooter — it just uses mechs instead of people. Even if we limit the argument to multiplayer PvP games, the multiplayer version of MiniBots Battlebox is almost certainly going to be a hit, and that’s a third-person shooter, just like No Man’s Land.

Granted, not every shooter game in Home works. Bootleggers ’29 is a ghost town, for instance. And I will be fascinated to see what VEEMEE has up its sleeve to drive traffic to No Man’s Land long-term.

The key with a Home shooter game is that it has to offer something which can’t be found in disc-based AAA-games. No Man’s Land faces a major challenge here, because it’s going for realism over whimsy, and that’s where your point about the limitations of Home start to come into play. Although the cover-based mechanics of the game are ironically more realistic than most shooter games, it’s a matter of what the gaming audience is used to experiencing. By making a game whimsical or unrealistic in some fashion, it deviates from that template and ironically makes the audience more receptive to a new experience.

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By: Gary160974 http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173704 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:31:37 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173704 I should of said I did read that about the figures, should of made my point more clearly, fabricating figures dont make a point and illustrate nothing because whatever figures we put in there would be weighted towards what outcome we wanted, and as for the wrong game for home its more about the limitations of home than the game itself, we will never get a decent shooter on home because of homes limitations, so why veemee thought they could make a shooter that can stand out on its own merits is beyond me.

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By: NorseGamer http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173692 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:21:58 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173692 Precisely; as the article states, the numbers are there purely to demonstrate the importance of whales to a freemium commerce structure, and I have no idea if they’re anywhere close to being accurate (nor is it ultimately important for them to be).

No Man’s Land raises an interesting question: whether or not Home games are more about the game itself, or the meta-game of achieving something and being rewarded with various tchotchke for the effort. I freely admit I’m hooked on this game — it’s chess with guns, and it’s got a surprising amount of depth to its strategy — but I wonder if “fixing” the unbalanced nature of the game would even be sufficient for the Home audience.

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By: Gideon http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173686 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:14:19 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173686 The numbers were complete fabrication, used to illustrate a point. I dunno if it’s the wrong game for Home but there is an issue with the implementation.

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By: Gary160974 http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173654 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 22:41:53 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173654 thats a lot of unique visitors 200,000 in first fortnight seeing as aurora took a year to get a million unique visitors over 4 regions, I think its the wrong game for home, its hampered by homes limitations and veemee then made it worse by forgetting what makes a home game successful and what makes a shooter successful, theres no reason to play it, no aim to it, no rewards, no MOABS its one avatar shooting another, then the more you pay the easier it is to win, but that has created other issues with joining games as everyone wants to be on the same team as the upgraded players so joining games is a mission as well, its just so wrong for home and so poor all round

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By: NorseGamer http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173582 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:19:40 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173582 I’d love to examine Peakvox Ninja, but I’m at something of a disadvantage: I don’t have accounts for other regions. I know I probably should — a significant portion of our audience comes from Europe — but it’s one of those things I’ve resisted doing.

That said, I’d love to read a review and business analysis of the game. If you’re up for writing a spec submission, McJorneil, we’d be interested to read it.

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By: Burbie52 http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173132 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:31:36 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173132 No Mans Land isn’t my type of game and never will be, shooters as a rule aren’t my thing. I doubt I would play it much unless there was a goal or reward attached to it, and even then it would be low on my list of to-do’s. I am waiting for the MiniBots and Mercia to come out, those are more my style and I hope that Mercia has some rewards attached to it to make it interesting to everyone, but knowing Lockwood I am sure it does as we already know that MiniBots does.
I think that I agree, No Mans Land needs to be rethought, or it won’t get far here.

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By: McJorneil http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-173119 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:21:39 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-173119 Hey NorseGamer, would it be possible for you to examine and do an article on the Peakvox Ninja game in Japan Home? It’s amazing and competitive. They have great rewards for leveling up, which create an incentive to keep playing. The catch is you have a stamina bar that drains after every game session, and refills 1 point for every minute you don’t play. Having an empty stamina bar means you can’t run, double jump, or dodge roll while you play since your ninja/avatar is exhausted, but you can continue playing if you don’t mind getting owned by all the players with healthy stamina.

So for people who enjoy the game and want to keep playing, they can purchase various scrolls that restore their stamina and grant other gameplay enhancements. They also sell power weapons, armor, and other things that give you unique abilities and advantages while playing. Most recently they added ingame currency that can be used to buy clothing rewards for your avatar and ingame weapons like a bazooka and sword (originally sold in the store for yen). My friends and I play it often, so if you need more details you can PSN message me (McJorneil is my screen name).

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By: Gideon http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-172930 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 04:13:19 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-172930 I think the random drop is a pretty good idea. I haven’t played too much of No Man’s Land because… well.. there’s other games I’d rather spend my time on TBH. Without a story or SOME goal that is being accomplished, I just lose interest. Being a “WINNAR” just isn’t important enough for me to invest my time in.

I would like it if we chose a faction and fought against opposing factions for control over “zones”. And my mind just went off on a “what if” tangent that would make No Man’s Land an entirely different game so I won’t share. lol

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By: MsLiZa http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-172825 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 01:26:43 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-172825 I agree with HIW on this one. Objectives and rewards would make No Man’s Land a more worthwhile undertaking. Maybe. I tried the game twice during its first week of release and haven’t returned. Just not my thing, even if it had rewards. Probably even if was free. I received complimentary all-access passes to Slap Happy Sam and Conspiracy last year. I played SHS once and hated it. I made it through the first few levels of Conspiracy before losing interest. Just saying that No Man’s Land’s success or lack thereof could be completely unrelated to the business model.

The more significant point is that Home games are different from standalone games in one massive way. Home is not based on the games themselves. In my opinion, more Home users are concerned with collecting stuff. Be it personal spaces, clothing, free rewards or winnable trophies from freemiun games…Homies like to have stuff and show off their stuff. Ornaments for apartments or avatar items are the symbols of success in Home. Leaderboards may work fine to showcase one’s abilities in many games but they’re not the priority in Home. That’s why the average Home user would shell out hundreds of dollars for personal spaces and clothing but not $10 for No Man’s Land. Many people on Home will play games that they do not like because they want the rewards. Most people will not trudge through a game to earn a space on the leaderboard unless they actually like playing the game. How many people play a Home game until winning the top prize, never to play it again? Do you think I’ve ever considered playing Orb Runner again since I earned the Champion Apartment? Not a chance.

Clear objectives or missions in No Man’s Land could possibly make the reward issue a moot point. Alas, Veemee missed the boat on that one too.

Regarding the comment that “no Home game is worth $50″, I would tend to agree with that opinion. In fact, I’ve probably said it myself at one time or another. It’s not that I believe a Home game can’t be worth $50. I’ve just yet to see one that is. I played Salt Shooter and Project Velocity endlessly for months with upgrades and boosters galore. I know that I never spent $50 combined. Maybe a Home game will be worthy of such a price tag one day but not yet. I still think that a Home game is more likely to peel $50 off of users in microtransactions than an up-front cost. That’s just the way that Home users are conditioned to spend their money.

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By: HearItWow http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-172784 Tue, 17 Jul 2012 00:29:48 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-172784 You had me and then lost me, Seal. Yes, an expanded tutorial that explains what the guns do and gives users a chance to experience them is a solid idea. Norse’s random drop idea is cheaper to implement, but it assumes that players will stick around long enough to discover the random drop function. My bet is that a lot of them won’t, which makes the expanded tutorial the better idea. Let people see that they don’t have to get killed every time they spawn if they have some good guns. Let them train with them. Then you’ll see some sales.

At least you would if the central concept of the game wasn’t flawed. As I’ve noted previously, gamers need a goal, and blasting away at random strangers in pursuit of a spot on the leaderboard simply doesn’t have enough cache to generate mass appeal. We want trophies. We want rewards. Without those things, you’re left with a considerable investment of time to learn the mechanics of a complex game and nothing to show for your achievement.

There’s a very simple truism in online marketing: The competition is just a click away. The same is true for Home. If the player doesn’t like a particular game, there’s another one waiting on the Navigator, and if nothing in Home looks appealing, there’s a pile of disc-based games sitting next to the console, and hundreds of games to buy in the PS Store.

This puts Home games in a difficult position. Either the gameplay needs to be so incredibly good that someone genuinely wants to play, or there has to be some point to investing the time. Novus Prime and the Sodium games hit it on the fun factor. Granzella’s fossil hunting, which is barely a game, succeeds because it delivers so many rewards, with the ultimate goal of completing a museum.

Where No Man’s Land breaks the mold, more than in its lack of free items, is in its complexity. This is a game that is far more complicated than a quick taste will reveal, and the full range of the experience can only be achieved through purchases. If you’re going to separate a large number of players from their cash, you need to give the free player some sense of progress without the add-ons, or dazzle them with some hard-to-achieve reward that is highly coveted. These are the formulas that work, not just to sell product but to provide the level of engagement needed to make a complex freemium game a long-term success.

Freemium is a model that could easily rewrite the fortunes of game companies, if they did it correctly. Imagine a free-to-play Pokemon game with 100 unlockable characters. You get one for free when you start, but it costs $1 to own every Pokemon that you capture. The whales who want to own every character now have to pay $99 to complete the game, while more casual players might invest $20 to build a full stable of fighters. What was a retail item with a price tag of $40 now has a potentially higher per-customer margin, and in-game store distribution eliminates the resale market. (Seriously, Nintendo, drop the Miiverse and start building this now.)

The biggest benefit of freemium is that it lets players try before they buy, which overcomes the reluctance to shell out $60 for a title that may or may not suck in epic ways. With some design thought, the monetization opportunities can be structured to build engagement and the desire to buy more.

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By: SealWyf_ http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-172596 Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:54:40 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-172596 A more-comprehensive tutorial would be a win for players like me — players who suck at shooters, and are pretty sure they don’t enjoy them, but are still willing to give them a chance if the experience is not too painful.

But dying every few seconds is not enjoyable; we also need to experience the pleasure of success. Even if that success is gained against an AI opponent. A more complex tutorial, which would function as a full single-player version of the game, would give us that. And, as you stated, a more advanced tutorial would let us test-drive the premium gear — win in several dimensions.

I would suggest making the a full single-player version of “No Man’s Land” available for a one-time fee — which is then deducted from the cost of any premium weapons you buy for the multi-player game. A paid test-drive, in other words, which pays for itself if you continue. I think that would work.

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By: KLCgame http://www.hsmagazine.net/2012/07/no-mans-land-and-the-question-of-paying-to-win/#comment-172586 Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:47:25 +0000 http://www.hsmagazine.net/?p=32671#comment-172586 Couldn’t agree more, but in all honesty here if you even just spend TOPS $13, you can be on par with the (heck I’ll say it) Loonies who spent $50. So personally I think people need to chill. By the way correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that blinged out skullotor meets the LOD a heavy armor which slows you down an insane amount?

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