Enhancing Home’s Block Feature
by IrishSiren, HSM filmmaker
Before we begin: please understand that what you are about to read is not a “down with Home” rant.
Quite the opposite. I think Home’s great. It’s just a sad fact that Sony, nearly two-and-a-half years into open beta, has not yet seen fit to provide and empower its users with sufficient tools to stop harassment on the spot. Instead, we have some serious social problems.
Home is an amazing service. It offers incredible products. It’s arguably the finest virtual reality yet conceived. It does, however, have one rather glaring problem:
Its users.
Let’s call a spade a spade: there are a lot of bored, maladjusted youths running around Home who take delight in harassing others. Chances are, if you’re reading this article, then you’ve experienced it at some point. Text spamming. Crotch crouching. Inappropriate messages. The list goes on. And Home, right now, frankly doesn’t do a lot to stop them.
This is a damned shame, because Home is a wonderful service. I enjoy hanging out in it. I’ve spent a lot of money on it. But I have to be honest: I don’t really go into it very much any more, unless I’m filming something for HSM. Because I’m tired of all the harassment.
Want to know why public mic chat disappeared from Home during closed beta, and took two full years (and a rather major core client update) to be reintroduced? Because it was being abused. A lot.
There actually came a point, last year, where I walked away from Home entirely. For months. Because I’d finally just had it with the harassment. It took working for HSM to even get me to a point where I was willing to go back into Home at all.
The idea that will be discussed in this article about how to improve Home’s block feature is actually Norse’s idea. He’s already talked about it in an episode of The Upload. He was originally going to write this article, but when he described it to me, I told him point-blank that I was going to write it instead. Because this is an issue that is very, very personal to me.
It’s not that Norse couldn’t write it. He’s probably far more capable of being diplomatic about a powder-keg issue like this than I am. But there is one very important reason why I needed to write this instead:
I’m a woman.
This image is socially unacceptable.
And here is the unfortunate truth: every time I have signed into PlayStation Home — every single time — I have had to endure some form of social or sexual harassment from other users.
Yes, men endure this in Home as well. But not nearly to the same extent as women.
It’s not that I think MercuryValentine and her moderating team do a bad job. To the contrary, I think they do as good a job as they can. But they have to be swamped. And therein lies the problem: it takes time to wade through all the reports and find out what’s fact, what’s fiction, and what needs to be punished. The problem with this is that since the mods are all invisible, there’s no visible police presence to act as a deterrent.
You know what gets me to slow down when I’m driving around in real life? A patrol car with a radar gun. That’s it. Speed limit signs don’t work. Public service announcements are a joke. But if I know I’m being actively and visibly monitored, then I will conform to the laws.
Virtual societies are no different. If anything, the need for a visible police presence might be even greater, since people are emboldened to misbehave by the veil of anonymity that online life provides.
No harsh and immediate deterrence means that griefers and trolls feel like they can get away with harassment. And thus the problem deepens.
Further, the tired refrain of “mute, block, report and relocate” is insufficient. Asking law-abiding Home citizens to go through these steps every single time they get harassed (which, in a single Home session, can be many times in a row — particularly for us women) is frankly insulting. Would you suggest to Kitty Genovese that she should have lived in a better neighborhood and had a better job in order to avoid getting stabbed to death by Winston Moseley?
As a law-abiding Home user, I should not have to relocate (and ask my friends to do the same) because some idiot kid has crouched and put his face in my digital nether regions. Because when we do relocate, guess what? It simply happens again, from another kid. So what am I supposed to do? Never leave my personal estates? It got to that point before I finally shut Home down and walked away from it.
I enjoy virtual reality to escape from the stresses of real life. I should not have to endure harassment just to alleviate some teenager’s boredom. By failing to provide sufficient deterrence and also failing to empower users to defend themselves against harassment, Sony is making it quite clear that they value that griefer’s business over mine.
If you feel that’s an unfair statement…too bad. You can tell me to grow a tougher skin, but that doesn’t change the reality that Sony has almost certainly lost revenue from users who simply don’t want to put up with any more harassment just to have fun. It’s simply too high of a price tag. And in light of recent events, Sony can’t afford to continually lose even the tiniest amount of revenue.
The catch, of course, is that most “empower the users” suggestions wouldn’t work, either. I don’t encourage vigilantism, because that usually ends up being almost as bad as the problem itself. And if you’re going to deploy new features to enhance the blocking system in Home, you have to take into account how they could potentially be abused — because if they can be, they will be. For instance, many users want to be able to make the griefer disappear entirely from their screen. The catch, however, is where did that user go? And what happens if I abuse it and make everyone in a space disappear? I’m no technology expert, but I can see this being a logistical nightmare.
This is where I think Norse’s idea is brilliant.
The beauty of this idea is in its simplicity: when you block a user in Home, not only does it mute that person (which the system is already designed to do), but it reverts them back to a “ghost” silhouette.
Think about it for a moment. When you enter a new public space, everyone starts out as a translucent ghost until your PS3 downloads their appearances. So, by reverting a user back to being a ghost, you’re simply telling your PS3 to un-download that avatar’s image. The machine and the Home servers aren’t doing anything they weren’t already doing.
All of these avatars started as ghosts. Reverting them back to ghosts would not put a strain on the system.
The other benefit of this is that “ghosting” an avatar effectively eliminates that user’s ability to harass you. Muting removes all textual harassment, yes, but the problem is that most griefers will harass with body language (crotch crouching, simulated punching via the “rock” dance, etc.) as well. And, further, even when a user is muted, you can still see their avatar making gestures when they speak — and it’s maddening to think that everyone around you is having to watch this troll insult you while you don’t respond at all.
A user who has been muted and ghosted has no effective means of harassing you. Not only do you not see their text bubbles — you don’t even see them. And if all your friends that you’re chatting with block that troll as well, then you could quite easily carry on a conversation while the griefer is truly out of sight and out of mind.
Is this a perfect solution? No, probably not. But it would be relatively cheap and easy to implement as part of a core update, since the PS3 isn’t being asked to do anything it isn’t already doing, and the servers themselves would be unaffected. It would empower users to stop harassment at the source whilst not creating a tool that could harm the system. I mean, what’s the worst-case scenario? You run around and “ghost” everyone? They all started as ghosts anyway!
Just think for a moment how this one feature might reduce the volume of reports that MercuryValentine and her team have to wade through on a daily basis (and, to be fair, she did suggest at http://community.us.playstation.com/message/30222925#30222925 — post #257 — that enhanced blocking features might one day be deployed in Home). I know that this one feature is something that I would feel very comfortable using, and would allow me to enjoy Home once again.
Because, like I said at the beginning, Home is great. I think it’s a fantastic service. I’d just love to be able to actually enjoy it in peace.
May 25th, 2011 by IrishSiren | 73 comments
IrishSiren is a former casual Home user who enjoyed Loco Roco island, Dragon's Green, Conspiracy, and ModNation Racers. In real life she is addicted to scuba diving, Grumpy Cat and reality TV. She lives in Hawaii.
Great article and making some pretty valid points there… “ghosting” avatars, gotta admit that’s a very clever idea. I dont see how it wouldn’t work out nicely.
Maybe making a limit as to how many people you can turn into ghosts could prevent the system from being abused too.. then perhaps having those ghosts revert back to their avatar state after a set period of time.
I don’t see how one could abuse the system. Already there is a limit on how many people you can block/ignore; I had a friend reach it once. But ghosting an avatar would only render that appearance on your screen, not on the offender’s or other people’s screens. It’s just like when you load into a space in Home for the first time; everyone appears to you as a ghost, but for the others that have already fully loaded, that is not the case.
I hope that I can say clearly what I’m thinking. Yes, of course, being a female I have been harassed almost constantly on Home, in public spaces, and I hate it. What I don’t understand (one of the many things) is why my male friends don’t “get it”. If I hear “ignore them” or even “report and ignore them” one more time from a friend I will scream. I don’t want to just ignore them, which only leads to physical abuse of the kind described above, I want them to stop. I want them to know they are wrong and feel it. And I want my friends to report, too. “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” -- Edmund Burke
Great idea! Love it. I agree completely Siren, there is no reason that we as the law abiding citizens of Home should carry the burden of dealing with its policing. I can see that the Mods are overwhelmed, but that alone should tell Sony something, change is needed, and quickly. I love Home, I spend a lot of time there trying to improve it, not tear it down like the trolling population does, and I should be able to enjoy it without having to stay in a private setting to avoid them. It used to bother me a lot more than it does now when they crotch sit or some such nonsense. Now I just make a joke about it or ask them if they know I am not real. The thing that does bother me the most is when they start swearing and calling anyone names, that includes the males I am talking to. the guys always defend me or themselves, many in a very witty way actually, but the point is we shouldn’t have to at all. I report severe abuse always, I warn them first, then if it continues I report. But I don’t want to spend all of my time doing that like you said in the article, and I shouldn’t have to. The ghosting idea, if it is feasible, is a great one. It would solve a lot of problems. Good article and well timed as we are back online now, keep up the good work!
Very nice article. I like the idea of ghosting but as with muting the harrasser doesn’t know and continues which your friends and everyone else can see. Why not take the ghosting thing a step further and make them entiely invisible; no idea that they are there at all. To the harrasser, instead of displaying your ID ovet your head it could display “visual and verbal block.” Once the harrasser sees that, there is no point in continuing the harrassment.
Basically, what they are looking for is attention. These are children. I have talked to several of them, just out of curiosity, and they are usually bored children with a PS3 as their babysitter. No one in real life gives them any attention so they look for it in Home. And, as with any child, bad attention is better than no attention. It makes them feel alive and important and ‘badazz’ if they can get you to react.
These are life’s losers. They have no future and they know it. Imagine if you could not even get through high school, your parent is out working all the time to support you, and you have no friends. So you sit at home, unemployable, with nothing to do but get on your PS3 and look for someone -- somewhere -- to acknowledge that you are alive.
I wrote an article about this called “Paradise Lost” which might show up in here someday. It is a social problem from real life that has bled over into Home. However, I would rather this kid be a social problem in a virtual world than spending his time learning how to be a hacker so he can really hurt everyone in the real world.
while i think this is one of the better ideas i’ve heard on this topic, i just don’t see the need for it, if that makes any sense. in my experience (i’m a female BTW) literally, if you and everyone else would just ignore them, they will stop. period.
so what if you don’t respond back to the negative and vulgar things they say. i’ve just ignored (and reported of course) these losers dozens of times and it works without fail, every time. if they fail to get any reaction out of you whatsoever, then they’ve accomplished nothing and will move on. and if anyone really doesn’t want to be bothered, in general, talking to friends, why not just go to you personal space where there would be no interruptions? IMO it’s really not that big of a hassle.
one thing i would totally agree on is more MOD presence in Home though. that would cut down the harassment significantly.
While I agree with the message of the article I think comparing being sexually harassed with being stabbed to death is a bit much. Sony doesn’t value anyone’s business over yours; they value everyone’s business equally. I would think it would still bother a person to just know that someone is perpetuating crude acts upon them, even if they are just a ghost.
The times I have been a femvatar (for machinima purposes) I have always been approached by someone and I usually just say. “Sorry man, I’m a dude.” With that they usually walk away. I have been, on occasion, harassed as a malevatar and have just had to put up with it.
The idea of allowing us to ghost individuals is a good one, I would prefer the ability to add people to an ‘avoid’ list so that when you leave that space, you will never again be loaded into a space with that individual. All of this requires additional coding on Sony’s part and that costs money. Is there any way to verify that people being harassed is actually making Sony lose money? One could argue that the harassment actually increases the chance of personal spaces being purchased by those who are harassed. I don’t know if there’s a way to quantify any of this.
These people want attention. That’s the long and short of it. By allowing them to annoy you, by continuing to discuss this in Home, by writing articles and blog posts we are only feeding into their desire to disrupt and annoy. They have affected lives to the point of discussing this issue ad nauseum.
Just think of what you would do in a REAL world sexually uncomfortable situation? More than likely you leave that situation, why can’t this just be the reaction in Home? If there is someone who is bothering you that you just CAN’T ignore who doesn’t respond to being asked to stop and threats of reporting doesn’t work.
Leave.
Don’t need to cause a fuss. Just leave.
By making this an “issue” they win.
Is this fair? No. It’s not. But as the old adage goes: Life isn’t fair
That’s me (my DarthGranny avatar) in the picture talking to two friends in CP when this loser showed up. I would not leave a good conversation. Leave? Let that jerk drive me away? Not a chance. So I ignored him -- and he proceeded to be as obnoxious as possible with comments.
But, here’s the result: my friends got very upset and proceeded to take him on. Soon it was a nasty scene with the three of them going at it. I kept saying, “you are giving him attention -- that’s what he wants. just ignore him” but onlookers were upset. Should all of us have left CP? Should we have given him the satisfaction of knowing he could clear out a space? I don’t think so.
The answer was, either talk to him and get to the root of the problem, or, if that takes more patience than you want to put into it, just ignore him. If he gets no response from anyone in that space, he will leave.
I honestly don’t see the big problem here either,as a male i’ve had to endure sexual harrassment from other males yet i’m not calling for a police state.If you are taking the things these guys are doing so seriously that you quit Home then maybe you care too much about what total strangers think.I simply tell these guys i’m not homosexual and if they continue with it i have fun at their expense,once they see that they are in an inferior position,argumentatively speaking,they soon leave.It’s not so much a matter of”getting tough” but changing to a mindset that any1 that acts in that manner is some1 that needs to be treated somewhat differently than some1 that is polite.All men and women may be created equal but that doesn’t mean all men and women need to be treated equally by me or you,if they act the jackass 1st it opens the door to that behavior being reciprocated.On Home i treat others as they treat me,if polite i’m polite if rude perverts then i treat them perversely rude.
Do not feel the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not feel the trolls.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do I need to repeat myself some more?
Do not feed the trolls.
It’s an old, old saying that goes back to those seemingly prehistoric days of dialup modems. But it holds just as much weight now as it did then. Perhaps even moreso.
Do not feed the trolls.
When you address the offending party(ies), when you leave, you are just validating their actions. When you address them, you give them exactly what they’re hoping to get by their actions. When you leave, they become emboldened; their behavior escalates to the point where they feel they can push anyone out of a space at any time, and even affect their intended target(s) in their offline life. This is where cyber bullying starts.
Do not feed the trolls.
It doesn’t take thick skin to deal with these fools. However, it does take a lot of self-discipline to not simply react, and a bit of warped humor doesn’t hurt either. You hold your ground; you don’t give them the reaction they want -- be it a verbal or virtual physical one. You pretend like they literally do not exist.
Do not feed the trolls.
If we all kept that one rule of the Internet in mind at every single moment we are in Home -- or on any social web, for that matter -- the bored “kids” would find someplace else to be bored. Or, miracles of miracles, actually behave like the human beings we know them to be.
Do. Not. Feed. The. Trolls.
Save Home, starve a troll
tl;dr
The old rule of “don’t feed the trolls” doesn’t work on Home. If you decide not to respond to them, they know you’re still there. It’s not like an internet forum in which the troll doesn’t know if you’re still there or not. If you just stand there--or do the total noob thing and let them know that you’re muting them--you’re just continuing to validate them.
But, by all means, keep standing there and taking it. Might as well be hand-feeding my lovlies.
Like I said earlier if you react to them with a joke instead of a bad reaction or if you ignore them completely it is probably the best solution. I used to work in bars and I found that if the girls there (me included) were being harassed by a drunken idiot and they gave him any attention it just kept up. I on the other hand would ignore them completely and act as though they were sprouting flowers out of their mouths instead of curses and they would eventually leave me alone while continuing to harass the other girls. It really does work, but that being said it doesn’t mean that it should be allowed to happen in the first place. This is a complex problem, as shown be the responses here and one that Sony will have to address someday.
I don’t know what age range the article refers to in “youth” or “kids” but it’s my experience from observation and even from news reports that adults are responsible in harassing type behavior. It’s not just the kids. I sure don’t know the percentages of “bad kids” and “bad adults” but it would be interesting to know.
As for the solution given as to ghosting to prevent or hinder maladjusted behavior, I have no opinion. I don’t know enough, sorry.
While I agree with the advice being offered about how to cope with trolls, it does not eliminate the very real need for Sony to provide stronger blocking tools for users to protect themselves.
Not everyone has a constantly thick skin. Not everyone can simply roll with the punches. Nor should that be a requirement to enjoy virtual reality.
All personal stories and emotions aside, it stands to reason that the more users are insulated from abuse, the more likely they will be to stick around and generate further revenue for the company.
Oh i agree that it shouldn’t be a problem in the 1st place but there’s not alot we can do atm about it except block them.So we are left in the position to either do nothing or do something.”Don’t feed the trolls” is 1 way to go about it but i generally choose to not only feed them but give them so much food that they become so full that they run away.Case in point,1 night i got a message from a friend in the poker tables about some1 harassing her.By the time i got there many other ppl had already started trying to get the perv to leave so after 10or15 min. of us telling him forcefully that it was a good idea for him to leave he left and to my knowledge never came back.I realise this isn’t something that every1 likes to do but as things are now our choices are limited.But i would never allow something a stranger did to affect my perception of Home,that’s reserved for false friends and partners.
When i say i feed them it should not be thought that i advocate breaking the TOS,every morsel i feed them is TOS friendly.There are a million ways,figuratively,to tell some1 to leave that aren’t kind but aren’t curse words.It is a bit tricky not knowing exactly which words are banned but as a rule if you don’t curse you should be ok. 1 notable exception is sarcasm,i don’t think the mods allow for it’s usage as much as other forms of humor.So there is a fine line to walk with language so it’s best to err on the side of caution in most cases.But like i said there are a million ways to get your point across if this is what you think is best.I’ve been having this discussion from my 1st days on Home when 1 of my 1st friends and i had opposing views on this,she did make me see that mildly offensive ppl could usually be brought around to the civilised side of humanity with lots of kindness but the truly hard-core trolls never succumbed to her charms,but they always ran when made to look the fool.
Has anyone met a person that is cool when its just you and that person together, but when they are around others they act completely different.
I think that is one explanation of Troll’s on Home. The way I see it, there is some kid sitting playing PS3 at his house with friends around. Seeing his troll like attitude would direct me to think that the people he spends time with, continually razz one another. So naturally if he is on Home with friends around he will act in this way, so not to be harassed by the people around him for being “Gay”. If you know what I mean.
The fact of the matter here is… When it comes to virtual reality, MMO’s and such, you are always going to have the people that will act a fool due to the fact that no one is actually face to face with them in reality. This has been true since the days of the BBS’s.
My recommendation to anyone that is fed up with Troll’s, is to ignore and/or have fun with them. Most of the time they are childlike individuals and with the proper strategy in which you conversate with these people, you will confuse them to the point they walk away, because you are “no fun”.
And of course this is all… IMO
I am gonna go into Biz on home and open Troll feeding operation…J/K
On a side note I think that a persons ability to cope with negative actions and reactions from people on Home, is a real social experiment into how sensitive people have become in society.
Thats why I am still a true believer in “you create your own world”. If you don’t like being trolled, don’t put yourself in a situation that gives an opportunity to be trolled.
With that mentality you have just eliminated many hours of work from Sony developers, and saved the entire community of Home from more and more censorship and over regulation.
“If you don’t like being trolled, don’t put yourself in a situation that gives an opportunity to be trolled”.
well. victor, look closely at the picture in the article. That is me, DarthGranny, dressed in business attire, with a conservative haircut (gray hair, incidentally), and ‘sensible shoes’. I was engaged in an interesting conversation with two friends when I was attacked.
These trolls will attack anything that looks female. The “situation that gives an opportunity to be trolled” is being a female in any public space in Home. So, do you suggest we all create male avatars and make Home 100% male? Or that females do not leave our personal spaces? Or that females stay out of Home completely?
I am not attacking you -- I am just trying to point out that this problem is far too insidious for any simple answers at this point. Same with Terra -- I did nothing to ‘feed’ this troll. As you can see, I am standing there calmly ignoring him.
This situation is going to take something like the ‘ghosting’ idea in this article or the marvelous suggestion by Nos: make the troll completely invisible to everyone in the vicinity who choose to ‘invisible’ him or hire a heck of a lot more Mods to be visibly present in public spaces -- like cops walking a beat. That means a lot of expense either hiring more Mods or making a core change -- and for Sony that is a BIG deal.
Sorry, folks, there is no easy answer. Some humans are just scum and that’s that.
First off appreciate your opinion, and you bring up valid points. There is no ill will directed towards you, this is just a debate that I hope will be read by others, and they will make their own judgment calls. But I would like to ask you a question.
Why does an anonymous avatar crouching in front of your avatar bring such a negative reaction from you?
The reason I bring this up is because your avatar is a digital representation of yourself. There is physicality involved with this representation. No physical harm can be done to this avatar. The only thing that can be effected is the mind of the person behind the TV screen.
Now I have intriguing conversations with friend of mine on home and we run into the same issues. Most of the time its ignored and we continue with whatever we are doing. Other times the person I’m with becomes quite irate about the whole situation. When that happens I say, “Lets move this conversation to a more private environment.” Like a personal space or club house. (Because eavesdropping is one thing that bothers me about Home.) But for some reason when they are irate about the situation, that option is ignored and the Troll is payed attention to. That to me is a very childish response to a childish action from an anonymous person. If we are so righteous, I think we should start acting as such, and stop being so sensitive.
Now to address the ghost option, I think that is a fantastic idea, but Ive seen this before in other virtual communities. People will just set them selves to ghost permanently and only open to known friends. That will destroy the community and will prevent the amount of people that don’t have friends from ever logging in. If… I understand the ghost option properly.
My ultimate point to all of this is, there is no need to attach such a deep emotional response to a virtual entity. There will always be the select few assholes in the mix, its better to prepare your mind for coping with your emotions, rather than creating more policies and regulations to a problem that is much easier to fix within yourself.
And of course this is all… IMO
“Why does an anonymous avatar crouching in front of your avatar bring such a negative reaction from you?”
Because of the implied disrespect for another human being.
Because it is done deliberately to annoy.
Because it is someone displaying behavior they would never attempt in real life
I usually run them off easily by pointing out I am very elderly and that’s my Depends they are sniffing. They jump and running yelling “EWWWWW” or, I have fun as suggested elsewhere by switching to my favorite male avatar and telling the dear boy how much I enjoy his attentions.
I’d like, if I may, Granny, to add my own very recent experience relevant to this subject.
The night of the HSM party at Red Bull Beach, while you were on the other server, I had the exact same thing happen to me that you refer to in the picture above. And unlike you, I was not dressed conservatively (http://api.ning.com/files/r-kgu6gnWAH8jhQeMhC2LDrnn8jYYW6xsFs1WbUcHZ5mgk44iSVhDMPj8HaRxZ0I/Image20110521220014418.jpg for reference).
The person who was dancing beside me -- I’m sorry, but I cannot recall his name -- pointed the troll out to me, even though I had been watching the offender for a good ten seconds prior. I acknowledged his comments with, “obvious troll is obvious” or something to that extent, and after a “lol” as a reply, neither he or I acknowledged the troll’s existence again.
The troll left not ten seconds later.
That was the first -- and so far, only -- time since returning to Home that I’ve had this experience, and it lasted for maybe three minutes tops. A far cry from the Home I knew just last summer.
This is passive resistance in action, and more or less what I was referring to in my prior post. Lord knows I’m not perfect at it, but I’m a human being, with human emotions. When that happens, I change into my alter ego avatar and let “him” have a go. Then hilarity ensues, and I can return to a better mindset for the next fool who comes along.
Yes, there will always be bored kids, and there will always be scum. No amount of policing on Sony’s part can fix that 100%. That’s just a fact. But you can fight back by not giving them what they want -- and that also goes for any people you happen to be interacting with.
Hey, it worked for Martin Luther King, Jr. and he was fighting a much tougher battle than a few digital crotch hounds.
Well if we’re judging historical figures actions based on success then i’d submit for consideration the actions of Ghengis Khan.Sure he was ruthless and exterminated many cities but NO 1 messed with him needlessly or in a “troll”-like fashion and he influenced a much larger area than Mr.King.I’m not advocating extermination as a tool here just showing that if we’re looking for historically successful ways to deal with undesirable ppl then violence has worked more often than non-violence has.Again i’m not advocating violence but advocating a course of action that’s a bit more proactive than doing nothing.Sometimes doing nothing is the quickest way to bring yourself to grief.I’m not saying every1 could or should do the things i’m advocating but i am saying that for some doing nothing is not an option in their minds.
And what you’re suggesting by your historical reference will just beget more trolling, as we in the Western world do not live in a world where absolute dictatorship is tolerated.
Please try again.
Ghengis Khan was no mere dictator,he shared power with those who were kind and in my historical reference it wouldn’t create more trolling as all the trolls would be dead.The whole point of my historical reference was to show that looking to history will only show you that it’s best to eliminate whatever is bothering you and is therefore not the best place to go looking for answers here,guess that point was missed.
I thought you weren’t advocating violence. I guess that wasn’t true.
There are other figures in history that have successfully rid themselves of nuisances without violence, most of whom lived in the last last century, and shows that we have in fact evolved (abeit marginally) from the days of Genghis Khan.
So I disagree with your belief that history is not the best place to go looking for answers. If you don’t learn from its mistakes, you most certainly will repeat them.
And for every peaceful person in history that rid themselves of undesireable ppl that you can name i’m sure i could name 3 that rid undesireables by violence.As for me advocating violence on Home,lol,even if i were,which i’m not,how could that violence be accomplished?My whole intention here by pointing out the fallacy of looking to the past is,like math,it can be used to “prove” anything.If the info. going in is faulty you will get a faulty answer,and to my knowledge virtual reality is a fairly new thing so looking for answers in the past is like comparing apples and oranges.
Society is society, whether it exists online or offline. Outside of the very few remnants of the BBS days of yore that still exist in caches in the farthest corners of the internet, we really don’t have any prior rules of thumb by which to go on other than our common human history.
So long as human beings are a part of the equation, the math will always be faulty. But it’s hardly apples to oranges.
So you can go ahead and name the ones who resort to violence, so long as you also take into account that their violence never really got rid of the problem, and in fact likely created a whole new set of problems.
Btw you say dictartorships aren’t tolerated in the western world but that’s not entirely true as cuba,argentina,panama and probably a few others were not only tolerated by the west and the U.S. but some even worked as agents of the U.S.,see panama.This may come as a shock to some but the U.S. and the west in general are very tolerent of blood thirsty dictatorships as long as they serve our purposes but as soon as they deviate from our plans they are cracked down on in some way,once again see Panama.I’m not saying this is good only that it is,the world is seldom a black and white place so i would hesitate to label these things as good or bad but they are certainly hypocritical to an extent.For the U.S. to claim it has a responsibility to bring democracy to places like Iraq and not to places like the Sudan or even closer to home Cuba is odd to say the least.Either help them all or none of them seems more ethical but as has always been true since day 1 politics have nothing to do with ethics.
Of course as a government we tolerate dictatorships. Heck, we trade with the biggest one in the world.
But we as a people -- who sadly, are very ignorant about our government’s foreign policy -- do not tolerate dictatorship, and it is the people who reside in Home, not our politicians.
“Always forgive your enemies -- nothing annoys them so much.”
Oscar Wilde
“It is a man’s own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways.”
Buddha
“The best way to destroy an enemy is to make him a friend.”
Abraham Lincoln
“Do good to your friends to keep them, to your enemies to win them.”
Benjamin Franklin
“He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself”
Chinese Proverbs
“Remember, always give your best. Never get discouraged. Never be petty. Always remember, others may hate you. But those who hate you don’t win unless you hate them. And then you destroy yourself.”
Richard M. Nixon
When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you.”
African Proverb
Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names”
John Fitzgerald
“You create your own world”. That sounds similar to another saying that I have heard, “You teach people how to treat you”. I have been on HOME since 2009, I have been harassed, and my friends have been harassed. Without fail, the harasser ultimately gives up when they do not receive the desired response. By ignoring the harasser, you teach the harasser that they should ignore you. By responding to the harasser, you teach the harasser that they should continue to harass you, and others. When I first entered HOME, I experienced several episodes where someone rushed up to me and used a racial slur to address me. This was a fairly common occurrence in HOME; as I saw this happen to others as well as myself. Today I believe that this type of behavior is virtually non-existent. I think the moderators have done a great job of banning people that exhibit this type of behavior. I also believe that it becomes less and less pleasurable for the harasser, when they realize that no one wants to play the game. My vote goes for the practice of Ignore and report; this seems to be an elegant and effective solution to the problem of harassment.
Btw i don’t believe increased mod presence on Home is an answer because the “troll”can just make another default account once he gets a ban then it just becomes rinse,wash,and repeat as he makes 1 new account after another.That is the #1 reason many ppl don’t take the rules in Home seriously as there is no real punishment,just the very minor inconvenience of switching to “troll” account #2,#3,#4,etc.I have found that feeding the”trolls”either makes them run away or susceptible to recruitment in my fam where they are then under at least marginally better control.The threat of losing friends is a much better deterrent than the ineffectiveness that banning currently is.This is also just my opinion but it’s an opinion that i’ve developed “in the field”so it has some merit as it’s worked in SOME cases.Of course not every1 has a “fam”to put”trolls” into and not every”troll”will be accepting but it is the best way i’ve known to deal with “trolls”.It’s far from perfect but it’s the best i know how to do.
Also btw i agree with Darthgranny,the “trolls” target doesn’t need to be doing anything to get these guys going.Just being a female makes for a high value target in their eyes.1 of my friends is an expert in what i’d call “anti-trolling”.He simply gets dolled up in a sweet piece of female avatar eye candy then walks around until “trolled”.That’s when things get real funny,the cries of “trolls” who just found out that they have been sniffing a male’s equipment and not a females are surprisingly delightful.For whatever reason 9 times out of 10″trolls” seem to believe all female avatars are real life females so if your female is being”trolled” i’d recommend telling him your male,just let any nearby friends know before you do it so they don’t become confused and accidentally give away the secret.As for opening up a “troll feeding store” well that takes practice and a sharp wit,it’s not for everyone and certainly not for the faint of heart or those who run away at the 1st sign of discomfort.
I can understand how you must feel.. for guys who have female friends on home, just try.. ‘try’ to go somewhere public and have a simple conversation and not even five minutes will pass without a stranger getting into and blocking the space inbetween you and your friend.
There have been times when I myself have to tolerate it and try to tell my female friends just to ‘ignore’ it but it does grate on my nerves and i myself end up sending reports every time im with her. I don’t want to, because i feel like i’m inundating another admin on home with endless reports of practically the same behaviour and there has to be another way besides, ignoring, muting and reporting, I hate reporting or blocking anybody. And i do feel guilty when I do.
These days when i talk to certain friends we always end up having to go into the water in seaside of memories as it seems more private and out of the way. It’s stupid and i know that we shouldn’t we shouldn’t have to do this, but we do. Because it’s desperation.
On Second life you send ‘tickets’ to report anything and if your a paying ‘Premium account’ member you can take this one step further with a phone call to customer Services, but even then you won’t know if the stalking / harrassment issue will be solved or not.
The ghosting thing could work and a label over your avatars screen will read (To the offending avatars screen) that you are muting, ignoring him.
This feature I agree can be open to abuse, there are plenty of arguments that can happen on home sometimes, but out of ‘spite’ that person may put up this feature as an annoyance.
The only thing about ghosting is that the physical barrier which acknowledges you as a physical presence on home, which are called ‘Phantom Textures’ on Second Life, allow avatars to push into other avatars and so on, so if the ignore feature is to be implemented, than so should the physical barrier, otherwise, even though you have that annoying troll on ignore, he could annoy you further by letting his presence felt (ie. Push into your avatar)
Ignoring them isnt so much the answer and in answetr to Gideons earlier point, why should we leave that space?, we have a right to be there!
Yes,you do have a right to be there but as with most rights if you don’t assert those rights they will be infringed upon by others.So if you leave whenever some1 trolls you,you are basically giving up your right to go where you please and personally i’ll be damned if i let a total stranger do that to me.
Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter so to call some1 “bad” for asserting themselves seems to totally ignore that there is any other option than peaceful means.As for your latest question about what this has to do with Home,i agree we have gotten sidetracked here,all of my posts boil down to this:there are usually many ways to approach a problem usually the best is a hybrid of many points of view so by saying NEVER feed the trolls you needlessly limit the options available to a Home user. Btw the nazi death camp post belongs farther up to our government discussion but there was no space for a reply.
And to prevent any confusion,by peaceful means in that last post i mean not engaging your troll in conversation not it’s traditional meaning.
There was space, you just didn’t hit the correct reply button for it.
Feeding a troll begets more trolls, because the ones who feed them tend to grow egos and go off and troll people who just wish to be left alone. And it really only works on the amateurish ones. Then you get some bored kids who see the counter-trolling, think it looks fun, and turn into trolls themselves.
Giving a troll no attention whatsoever -- especially the hardcore trolls -- deprive them of that one thing they desire the most: a reaction.
Which is why enhancing the block feature by turning the offending parties into ghosts as well as blocking their texts is actually a clever idea; as is making it publicly known -- either above your avatar’s head or in the chat log -- that you have blocked that person. Combine this with the possibility of having a designated space to “fight” so that the people (such as yourself) who feel the need to throw their weight around to counteract the antagonism that is directed their way, and everyone potentially wins. The people who want to converse in peace can to so, and the people who cannot and will not have a place to go to as well.
Well now,i think what you are advocating is segregation.The seperation of those who would choose to defend themselves and those who would do nothing.Might work i guess but in reality it has proven a failure,as for throwing my weight around that sounds like a personal attack.I only brought up valid points and you took offense to it,now i see how the trolls bother you so much.Terra you really can’t take things personally when big issue topics come up,just because some1 thinks differently than i or has a different belief doesn’t cause me to attack the person.I merely try to show them the err’s of their belief as i see them.Doesn’t make them wrong or me right but only by the free discussion of ideas is the truth and best way of doing things brought to light.I’m surprised that 1 didn’t make Olivia’s list as it was a favorite of the founding fathers.
Nope, not segregation at all. All parties can come and go at free will, to all spaces, but if you read Cheeky’s article, you know exactly what I mean.
And I’m not taking things personally at all. Your “valid points” are only valid to your experiences, as are mine. And like you, I have every right to not back down on them as I see fit.
Which is 1 of your more endearing qualities and makes your willingness to just give up your right to be at a location more puzzling to me.If you treated “trolls” in the same manner as you do sticking up for your beliefs your “troll” problems would be solved.IMO
I never said I gave up my right to be at any location. Please re-read that post again.
Maybe i confused you with another person that advocated running away,i’m not sure there are so many posts here that i’m not going back through them all til my laptop is fixed.So if i did i apologize for the mix up but it then begs the question:”where do you see doing nothing taking you?”
Well, as it proved on Saturday night, it gave me the satisfaction of knowing that the troll walked away empty handed, and I had an awesome night.
I would have done the same. The first ten seconds of a troll invasion are the most important and typically determines the outcome.
As I’m not quite used to the new chat setup, I hardly ever notice private messages directed at me by people not on my friend list, so those are pointless.
Verbal assaults get reported -- no warning. They know what they’re doing is wrong.
And it only takes about three tries for them to realize I’m not going to give them the satisfaction of reacting to them and with a “**** u” give up and walk away.
And if I choose any reaction at all, it’s to change into my rather dead sexy male alter ego, and wait.
I agree that the male switch is a good idea but it may not be for everyone,listen i’m not saying i have an answer here for every1 just that some ppl think differently on this subject.I’m not saying your wrong and i’m right.I’m saying i’m right and so are you.Until things change we are left to fend for ourselves mostly so there isn’t a wrong or right answer for everyone.I think it’s probably best if we agree to disagree at this point.Which i’m totally able to do without ill feelings to the other party,so i hope your way works for you,i really do.
I haven’t felt anything at all that would remotely constitute a bad feeling, or a feeling at all. I’ve found this to be quite fun.
What I have taken away from this discussion so far is that different people handle tolling in different ways according to what their personal experiences are with it. I for one find that you need to take each incident that it happens separately and do what you think is best in that situation. In my experience, if they are just getting in your face or crotch and you ignore them, many times they go away on their own. I agree that it is silly in the first place as avatars are just a bunch of pixels, so I don’t really take it personally. But like it has been said I think I have a thicker skin than some people in Home, having dealt with some pretty rude behavior in real life too. That being said if someone is using verbal abuse the situation changes immediately. I warn them, then report and ignore. If they continue to stand there gesticulating I tell them I can’t hear them and how foolish they look and also tell them they have been reported. I will not stoop to their level and return insults. That to me solves nothing and just generates more problems.
But it truly boils down to this, the behavior shouldn’t even be allowed to happen in the first place. I know that Sony can brick your PS for extremely bad behavior, so I say that they need to have a three strike you are out policy. If you have been reported (truthfully)for trolling behavior more than three times I think your account needs to be permanently banned, once more, even using another account, and they brick your PS3. I don’t know if this is possible. I know they can figure out which ISP you have, so I think it is.
I agree completely.
If Sony can brick your PS3 remotely, we have a serious problem and need to have a new article written.
“Sony can break their own product for profits.”
Idk for sure but have heard from pretty reliable ppl that this is true.In every case that i was told about,which is about 4or5 4th hand stories so take it for that,it was for gamesharing.I’m sure that in the fine print somewhere,either the 1’s in your PS3 or the TOS for the network,there’s something that says they can do it in”Legalese”,if it’s truly possible.As for breaking them for profit,well that’s so devious that i would think that someone would have said something to someone in charge about it,and to date i’ve never heard that before.Gotta congrat you though,that’s something i’ve never even considered,i thank you for giving me something to think about.
Thats what Im here for.
There will always be the select few assholes in the mix, its better to prepare your mind for coping with your emotions, rather than creating more policies and regulations to a problem that is much easier to fix within yourself.
Irl i’d agree with that statement but here we’re basically talking about Sony’s property.They own the network and can pretty much do w/e they want so Burbie’s suggestion might be the best deal we get.It eliminates the problem without harming the falsely accused,if done as she posted.Now while i say i agree with it i doubt it will get adopted,as it would potentially turn alot of ppl away,through bans,which translates into lost revenue.But if i’m wrong about Sony wanting to get tough about this then i think this is the best plan i’ve heard so far for them to pursue and for us to live under.I know all that sounds like a hedge but that’s how i feel as of this moment,tomorrow i may feel different if i hear a better plan.
The fact that I trained in (and taught) martial arts for self-defense does not eliminate the responsibility of the society’s elected leadership to provide a visible and effective means of deterrence (police) for the purpose of maintaining law, order and a certain acceptable level of minimal civility.
Virtual societies are no different.
Fixing oneself, as you point out, is good for personal equilibrium. That said, I don’t expect to get mugged, assaulted or harassed every time I leave my house, despite the fact that I’ve prepared for it. Yet in Home, I personally do have to anticipate unprovoked rude, harsh, intrusive and obscene behavior practically every time I sign in. And what I’ve seen women have to endure in Home is deplorable.
Irish hit the nail on the head, as far as I’m concerned. Home is a brilliant experience, and its biggest failing or drawback is, ironically, some of its users. The “grow a thicker skin” argument, for me personally, doesn’t cut it. Simple business logic suggests that providing a higher level of protection against social harassment will lead to longer user sessions and more revenue generation. Cynella wrote a brilliant article on this subject — “Banning the Unbannable” — back in the very early days of HSM.
While I’m glad that some people in this discussion are capable of ignoring harassing and obscene behavior in Home with relative ease, it is remarkably callous to suggest that everyone else should simply be capable of doing the same.
With regard to Sony being able to brick your PS3 remotely: yes, they have the capability to do so, if absolutely necessary. The MAC ban is the single strongest tool they have. Granted, they have economic incentive to not do so, because of the potential for lost revenue down the road. That said, when it comes to dealing with obscene or harassing behavior, I’m all for a more draconian Home. Cthulu93, 99Victor and perhaps a few others in this discussion will disagree with me, but I personally see nothing wrong with it if it leads to a more civil and mature Home experience.
Actually i don’t disagree with anything you said very much,i’ve only suggested that some ppl are “growing a thicker skin” because as things are now it’s the best some of us can do.An increased mod presence is comforting visually but i think i explained the process above somewhere about how easy it is for a troll to get into account #2,#3,#4,#5,etc.I don’t enjoy having to do the things i’ve talked about but atm and until Sony makes trolling a brickable offense,either immediately or after so many stikes,what else can we do that will work 100% of the time.The answer to that is nothing,i freely admitted above somewhere that the way i talked about wasn’t for every1 and i didn’t say it was for every1,i also said that doing nothing worked in some cases,i also freely admitted that there are some trolls that neither way would work on.I think we all want the same thing here,namely grief free experiences on Home,ppl just have different ways of attempting to attain that goal.
*Strikes
Ghosting is ok, but who wants a ghost avatar hanging around? Or two? Or ten?
The only way to really make it beneficial, would be to have the target troll and your avatar mutually ghosted and muted/ignored/blocked if the feature is activated. No one is going to try to troll a non-responsive ghost, knowing they are test-bubbleless ghosts themselves.
The Homelings are troll magnets. We have been dealing with this for years on a large scale. And no matter how efficient we become at dealing with them, it would be very well to be able to end it in an instant.
The Homeling Collective has whole groups dedicated to the harassment and indeed, the intent to destroy us via trolling within Home and near illegal practices beyond into other venues -- Facebook, YouTube, blogspot, Home-based websites, etc. Some of these even go as far as to make public personal information of individuals -- ip addresses, real life photos, google map screencaps of work places and home locations, etc. If there were no way to interact with a target withing Home, there would be no fun or reason to take it elsewhere.
Or, at least, significantly less so.
My new favorite idea.
Within* (sorry)
Just to clarify as there seems to be some confusion as to what i’m actually talking about here.When i said i feed the trolls til’ they’re full i meant nothing more than engaging a troll in conversation and trying to show him the error of his/her ways.This is a time consuming activity as it usually requires at least 15 min. or more per troll and as we know you can encounter an endless supply of them.The convo. has the added benefit of having a real chance of convincing the troll to permanently stop their offending ways.Far from passing the problem on to some1 else,as i feel doing nothing does as the troll then seeks a more engaging target,talking to them is the best way i know to rehabilitate these ppl.Of course it doesn’t always work,probably only in the area of 30% success rate in my experience,but by not feeding the troll he is almost certain to seek new prey.I’ll try a quote here but this may not be exact,”All evil needs to succeed is for good men/women to do nothing.”Not sure who said it but i agree.
Found that quote here it is in it’s full form “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”- Edmund Burke
I’m glad i looked this up because Edmund Burke is someone i knew little about yet after reading some of his essays i can say that he seems to be a very interesting guy.
Good idea Nos. Mutual ghosting would help I think. But in the long run I think everyone should always report first, so that Sony has something to go on and perma ban them after 3 strikes, which I think should be the rule still. If they simply jump to another account, then start again, that is when the bricking would apply. I think if Sony made the general populace in Home more aware that any form of harassment, be it stalking, verbal abuse or other forms will not be tolerated anymore the trolls would start to take notice quickly. This could be done by putting up signs in plaza (more than the one near the dance floor) that clearly state the TOS about this particular subject and its consequences. It could also be posted by the moderators in the forums as well in large bold print that won’t be easily ignored and on the blog as well. Very few read the TOS and those of us that have find in so full of info that the actual rules get lost in the reading. So I think a simple, clear posting to help to spread the word about trolling, stalking or any other form of harassment and its consequences is long overdo.
Operation DNFTT has begun….
As our virtual selves become more and more realistic I see this as a growing problem, and likely to have repercussions in the real world. I also think it will ultimately need to be addressed in a more real-world fashion with concrete penalties and suspensions for harassers.
The first step is more moderation (I know, not simple), followed by a system that can really ban an offender from returning easily. The “ghosting” idea is interesting, but I really think it’d only be effective if the ghost effect goes both ways, as mentioned above, and is not the answer alone: It needs to be made clear in no uncertain terms that this is not acceptable, and I believe that will have to involve fear of real world penalties.
As for the ignore and report tactic — this is what I tend to do myself, but we should not *have* to. I think especially of friends and relatives who are survivors of rape or abuse, and a very little bit of this type of behavior can rip open very bad psychological places. we all deserve a safe, comfortable virtual environment.. if it can’t be that, what’s the point?
In my near one year of experience on Home, I don’t believe that I have ever been harassed by anyone wearing anything but default clothes. So these people are either not spending money on Home or they are making trolling accounts. If Sony bans the ones not spending money, there’s no loss of revenue to them. Yes, they may be spending money on other PSN content. In that case, they are falling under the second category, of people making trolling accounts. There has to be real threat of “bricking” for these people to feel a loss. I firmly believe this fear will be a deterrent and the occasional loss of their revenue will be more than made up for by the people who will enjoy Home more, stay longer and spend money.
You should post a list of known Trollers
Well i don’t think that there is a definition of what constitutes a troll that will satisfy everyone so anyone on your proposed list might not really be a troll.I’m also kind of curious as to what purposes a list would or could be used for?Additionally it would have to be understood that any list would never be complete as there are new trolls being made every min.,even if some of them are just troll side accounts.The list would require constant additions and possible subtractions,unless your saying someone’s temporary actions,trolling,qualify them to be labeled as a troll forever which would take no account of a persons ability to change or to be rehabilitated.Trolling is a mindset and the best way i know of to stop it is to change the trolls mind about it’s benefits to them.But i really am curious about the purposes of this list,please elaborate.