Hello and welcome to Meriology Without Apology. This is Dr. Mark Mirvalli. I am joined by
Dr. Robert Festigi, long-time friend and contributor to this program. Welcome, Robert. Let's begin
with a prayer, and perhaps we want to begin with the prayer, as you kindly suggested,
of the Lady of All Nations. Yes. In the name of the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Spirit, Amen. Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father, send now your Spirit over
the earth. Let the Holy Spirit live in the heart of all nations, that they may be preserved
from generation to generation, disaster and war. May our Lady of All Nations, the Blessed
Virgin Mary, be our advocate. Amen. In the name of the Father, the Son, and the
Holy Spirit, Amen. Thank you, Robert. So today we are speaking
about a crisis. Now, we've heard a lot of crises lately. There's global crises. There's
a crisis in the Church, but we're going to specify the crisis in Mariology. We are experiencing
a real threat to the continuity of Mariology, as it's always been championed in the Church,
but especially in the last two centuries. In the 20th century, in a remarkable way,
with the growth of Mariological Societies. For example, Robert, the Mariological Society
of America, of which you were past president, during the time of J.P. Carroll in the 50s, had
over 200 doctored members. And so what we're seeing now is Mariology Institutes closing,
and people not knowing where to get a Mariological degree. And in cases where people are saying,
look, we have more faculty than students, it looks like even more places are potentially
under this issue. So what I'd like to do in our program, Robert,
first of all, let's establish the fact of the crisis. Are we, in fact, experiencing a great
decline in contemporary Mariology? That would be the easiest part, because the facts are ubiquitous.
And then number two, what's the remedy? How can we restore, regain, renew Mariology?
And then thirdly, I'd like to talk about Mariology and the treatment of Our Lady at the Synod,
which was recently completed. So you've done some great writing and research on this subject.
Could you start with a little foundation, even from one of your articles, about the situation,
the crisis of Mariology presently? Yes, Mark, I think it's important for us to realize that
it's not just you and I seeing this crisis. It's been recognized by the Pontifical Marian Academy,
of which I'm a member. But at one of the meetings, I think it was at 2014,
Father Stefano Cecchini, now the president, but then the secretary,
stated publicly, Mariology is in a state of crisis. And then another eminent Mariologist,
Father Salvatore Tarella, said, where are the young people? Because I'm not young, but
he said, where are the young people? So he said he was worried about the future of Mariology.
And then we have the most remarkable statement by then Cardinal Ratzinger in a book that he
co-authored with Hans-Ozban Balthasar, originally published in 1980 in German, but then published
a few years later in English. And this is what Cardinal Ratzinger said, the immediate
outcome of the victory of ecclesiastical or ecclesiocentric Mariology at Vatican II,
this is what was perceived, was the collapse of Mariology altogether.
And that's coming from a high source. And he actually was part of the support for
ecclesiotypical Mariology, which, as we know, means seeing Mary mostly in relationship to the
church, as a model of the church, a woman of faith, as a member of the church, rather than
seeing her, of course, it's true that she's all of that, but rather than seeing her as the
predestined mother of the word incarnate, who cooperated with Christ in the work of redemption.
And, but that's there in Lumen Gentium, chapter eight of Vatican II, but unfortunately, many people
miss it. Because they reduced Mary to simply a model of virtue, which she certainly is.
But maybe you could comment on that before I talk about some of the research I've done.
Sure, I mean, we've done previous programs on this, even in terms of book reviews and whatnot.
But to try to summarize a lot in a little, you've got this history of Mariology, really going back
to the fathers, even though, of course, it wasn't a separate science at that time. But the whole
concept of Our Lady as New Eve is obviously in relation to who? Jesus, the new Adam. It is
Christo-typical. It is examining what is unique of the mother in relation to Jesus. Now, were there
references to Mary in relation to the church by Ambrose and Ephraim? Yes, there were. But the idea
that Mary was first seen as church and not first seen as the new Eve with the new Adam,
her relationship with Jesus, is simply untenable. It's unhistoric. It's theologically
inaccurate. And as Ratzinger says, it could be very dangerous. So this is the, to summarize,
you know, two millennia of Mariology in a few words, you've got this constant dimension of a
greater development of understanding Our Lady's role. So in the Middle Ages, what is she cherished
as? The Mediatrix of All Graces, Damascene, and Andrew of Crete, and Germain of Constantinople,
and before them, St. Ephraim, and after them, the Bernards, and the Bonaventures, the Anselms.
They're all articulating the beauty of the mother in relation to Jesus as the Mediatrix of All
Graces. What is unique of the mother? And that's why even in pictorial theology, if you will, in the
great cathedrals, you've got Our Lady, you know, behind the altar in a huge image, and there's
popes and saints and mystics underneath her mantle. But that's a pretty good depiction. And,
you know, Peter Damian rightly says the relationship between Mary and the church is a
relationship of mother to child. Why is that difficult? That's just clear and beautiful.
Now, you can rejoice in the child, but as we've said in other programs, you know, the idea
even in terms of the urgency we find ourselves in in the church. Why did John Paul II consecrate
the world, including Russia, the Immaculate Heart of Mary? Why did Pope Francis consecrate Russia
and Ukraine? Well, look, if we, so we're the church, right, Robert? So if we consecrate ourselves to
ourselves, we're not going to save ourselves. If we consecrate ourselves to the Blessed Mother, yes,
we are going to receive graces, and ultimately, along with the proclamation of that truth
in a fifth dogma, we're going to have the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. So all this is to say
Mary in relation to Jesus first, clearly, unambiguously, then beautifully and profoundly
Mary in relation to us. But ecclesiotypical can never usurp Christotypical, and I think that's
why Cardinal Ratzinger honestly confessed this is what has happened. Ecclesiotypical
Mariology has usurped, in fact caused, the collapse. And if we don't see that, Robert, now
we're not going to be able to be voices and instruments of its resurrection, which is what
we need. Very, very good. Thank you so much for those important insights. I would just say that
I've been teaching Mariology at a major Catholic seminary in Detroit, you know, for over
two decades now. So I'm concerned about the teaching of Mariology in seminaries, and there
actually was a symposium on this at the University of Dayton at the Marian Institute there.
And then I decided after that to conduct a survey, and I wrote to the deans of 35 major
seminaries in the United States. This was 2015, but it carried over into 2016, and I received a
response from 32 of them, which I was very happy to receive responses. And I just wanted to know,
do you require a course, a standalone course in Mariology? And out of the 32, nine, only nine
out of the 32 had a required standalone course in Mariology. Now a lot of the deans said, well,
we include Mariology in Ecclesiology, or we have this course on Mary and the Saints, and all of
that is very, very good. But in other words, in terms of organic systematic Mariology, only nine
out of the 32 required it. All of the rest, though, I have to say, all of them had an elective in
Mariology, but a few of the deans said it's very rarely offered. So in other words, in the four
years of study, a seminarian might never have an opportunity to take that, and some
choose another elective over Mariology. Now there were Marian devotions, often initiated by the
seminarians themselves at every one of these 32 seminaries, so I was very happy to hear about that.
But there is, of course, we want Marian devotion, but it has to also be supported by a sound
study of Marian scripture, Marian ecclesiastical history, doctrinal history, the understanding of
the reasons behind the great dogmas about Mary, and this was not just my concern,
but I found that the Congregation for Catholic Education, which up until recently had the
duty of overseeing seminary education throughout the Catholic world, was also concerned. So if I
could just make a few historical references. Please, please, Robert, because this is important.
Again, this is not the opinion of two Mariologists. This is reality. This is what's happening
globally, and that's why you mentioned the Marian Institute, which is now closed, essentially.
They're not offering degrees anymore. There's a residual presence there, but fundamentally,
as a place to go and get graduate education in Mariology, that's no longer available at what
used to be the center fundamentally, or at least one of the principal centers in the United States.
And again, with this extension program in Rome, some have mentioned that
those days seem to be numbered. Now, of course, we have to see on that, but I've heard it often said
that there's more professors than students. Well, that's an indication of great decline. So please
substantiate this, not just in our opinion, but even in documents, again, by
Rome, by the Vatican. Yes, well, during the pontificate of Saint John Paul II, there
were a number of interventions. One came on January 6th, the Epiphany, 1980. There was a circular
letter issued by the Congregation for Catholic Education, and it was called the Circular Letter
Concerning Some of the More Urgent Aspects of Spiritual Formation in Seminaries. Now, all of us
have heard stories about right around in the late 70s and early 80s, seminaries were not in
a good state doctrinally, and this has led to, I think, some of the problems that still continue
today, because out of seminaries come priests, who then might be malformed theologically.
Thankfully, a lot of that has been overturned and revised, but there were problems then.
But this is what was said in that circular letter of 1980. A seminary should be a school of, quote,
filial love towards her who is the mother of Jesus and whom Christ gave to us as mother.
And the letter notes that Marian devotion, quote, must not merely be a pietistic and sentimental
note attached to spiritual formation, but an integral part of the formation of a seminary.
And then this is the part I really like. It says, the importance of a proper teaching of
Mariology is a matter of fidelity to the Marian mystery.
And it states, and this is very important, Christology is also Mariology, and the proper
devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary can and must be a guarantee against everything which would tend
to eradicate the historicity of the mystery of Christ. In other words, a sound Mariology
helps sound Christology. Right. And we see that historically. We see it with the Nestorian
heresy. It wasn't until they refused to call Our Lady of the Theotokos that they realized that
Nestorius was splitting Jesus. And so she does protect Orthodoxy. And I think it's fascinating
too, Robert, you know, going back to your seminary study, notice that when they said, well, we don't
have a class in Mariology, but we kind of deal with ecclesiology. And I know from other comments,
some people say, well, they had a class or two at the end of their ecclesiology. Well,
what this document is saying, what St. Thomas has always maintained is that, and Chabon,
see the mother in relation to Jesus. So if you're going to not give her her own course, which she
should have, as you know, you'll talk about later as well, then include her in the last
sections of Christology, or include her organically as you're talking about the Christological
councils and what comes forward for them. But, you know, the idea of, you know, it's like people
will ask sometimes, well, for RCIA, where should you bring up Mary? And the answer is, well,
where the gospel brings her up. And that is right from the beginning, because she's there to say,
yes. But this idea that, you know, two weeks before they entered the church, oh, by the way,
yeah, we got to cover this Mary stuff. That's this disunifying effect and de-emphasizing effect
that's not just true of some RCIA programs, but it's also true of some of these seminary programs.
So if you're going to not have a class, which you should, it should be in Christology that
you're talking about the mother. So, but go on, Robert, let me do it. I think that's absolutely
true. And then in 1988, the Congregation for Catholic Education, at the end of the Marian
year, 1987-1988, came out with this very important letter entitled, The Virgin Mary in Intellectual
and Spiritual Formation. And it was addressed to theological faculties, to seminaries,
and other centers of ecclesiastical studies. And part of it, part of the motivation was to
implement St. John Paul II's hope for the Marian year, especially expressed in his wonderful 1987
encyclical, Redemptoris Mater. But there's a few important things to note in this letter.
One is this, considering the importance of the Virgin in the history of salvation
and in the life of the people of God, and after the promptings of Vatican Council II and the popes,
it would be unthinkable that the teaching of Mariology be obscure today. It is therefore
necessary that it be given its just place in seminaries and theological faculties.
So this is, it's unthinkable that it would not be there. Yeah, it's a very clear superlative.
In fact, sadly though, the unthinkable is exactly what's happening, not just in seminaries,
but notice that's directed to theological faculties. It is very rare to find a Catholic university
that offers even an elective in Mariology. For much of the country, it just doesn't exist.
I was speaking with a European bishop who said that he doesn't think there's a single university
throughout Western Europe. Now that's a, you know, not a categorical statement, but
perhaps a generalization, but he doesn't think there's a single
Western European university that offers a course in Mariology. So what is unthinkable is reality
now, and hence that's the need to go under this. So, I mean, I think, so already we've got the
circular letter, we've got Cardinal Baum, we've got Cardinal Ratzinger admitting that Mariology
has collapsed. I remember John Paul II saying that, you know, without, this is 1979 in Pueblo,
without Mary, Christology becomes simply an ideology without flesh. In other words, it's just,
it's a Buddha, it's a Hindu, it's a principle that's just a set of ideas, but it's not
the second person treated becoming man, and that's what we are in danger with right now,
with the great decline of Mariology. So I think we've certainly established, and I know you can
go on because you've done a lot of research in this, but that's just a fact. Mariology is down.
Now let's segue to part two. How do we resurrect it? And if I can start with a few thoughts on that,
and I would love to hear your comments on it, Robert. First and foremost, we have to return
to a foundational, Christotypical Mariology. Now that doesn't sound like rocket science,
because it's really not. It's what has fueled and founded Mariology since the apostolic age,
is you have to see Mary in relation to Jesus first, clearly, foremost. We did a review of a
book recently, and again, no ill will to the author of the book, but there were references like
Mary and the church are just aspects of one and the same mystery. You can't say that. That's not
an accurate understanding of the uniqueness of the mother. Her uniqueness is something we should
rejoice in. We shouldn't try to limit her by who we are as the church, who is not immaculate,
who's not the mother of God, who's not the perpetual virgin, in the sense of being united
with the Theotokos. So I think number one is we've got to get back to the real stuff,
the elements of Our Lady that shine in glimmer for what God has done in her. Then, and that's why I
run on this sentence so that we semi-colon rather than put a period, then of course we can appreciate
beautiful and true ecclesiotypical Mariology. There's great beauty in the relationship of
Mary and the church, but again, if it takes away from the uniqueness of the mother,
this decline is simply going to continue. So for me, it's number one, you got to get back to
Christotypical. Number two, there has to be a re-examination, a refurbishing, and a renewal,
really existentially, of Marian mediation. We got to talk about the mother relation to us.
Why are people not even studying it anymore? Because there were so many horizontal applications
to Mariology, like one thesis, the influence of Our Lady of Guadalupe on Aztec pottery.
That's great, Robert, but that's not a thriller, and it's not going to help us with salvation.
And all these horizontal approaches, Mary as model of social action, even in its most extreme forms,
Mary as a symbol of liberation theology, of course they're not coming. Of course,
we don't have the young ones, of course we don't, because they're not interested in that,
and well with reason, because that's not exciting. You know what's exciting? A mother who loves us,
a mother who wants to save us, because she's the perfect model of servants to Jesus, and we're
supposed to imitate that, and she can unite us to Jesus in ways no one else can, because that's
God's appointed position for her. Whether you're talking about standard Mariology,
or whether you're talking about Fatima, the reported apparitions of Amsterdam, and the
message of Akita, which talks powerfully about a great chastisement that could be facing the world.
All those dimensions presuppose she is a powerful queen, a mediatrix of all graces,
who advocates because she participated in the redemption as the co-redemptrix.
That stuff is dynamic, and that's what's attracting students. We've got over 200 students
at both Franciscan University and Ave Maria University in Mariology, and the numbers are
increasing because they're seeing the relevance of that. I mentioned this before we got on,
but I want to mention to the people too, because I found it so beautiful. A student came up to me
yesterday and asked for 200 prayer cards of Lady of All Nations, because she wants to include it
in her wedding invitations. I mean, that's such a beautiful echo. They're the young ones,
because they're getting it, and they're also seeing this is not ivory tower stuff, Robert.
This is going to affect their lives, and the lives of their children, and the lives of the future,
because she either is the remedy, or she's a nice statue in the corner to light a candle to,
but effectively she's a non-player in the renewal of the church in the world. I pray and hope people
accept the first, that she is the remedy, and that's the Mariology in action that calls people
to appreciate and to love her. No, thank you. Those are wonderful. I couldn't agree more.
I just have a few observations. I did a systematic survey of seminaries,
but there was a rather unscientific reaching out to major departments of theology in the United
States, and some of them had courses in Mariology, but they were really not on Mariology, but in a
cultural setting. So, Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is wonderful, but it becomes more or less
a cultural phenomenon, and then there was another Catholic graduate school that had a woman teaching
Mary as a symbol of feminine empowerment, which she is, but then you wonder where is systematic
Mariology? I mean, when we say that systematic Mariology began with Fr. Francisco Suarez's
commentary on the third part of the Summa, which is on Christ, so dealing with the mysteries of
Christ, then he expands looking at the mysteries of Mary in relationship to Christ. That's how
systematic Mariology began, and then if you look at theological manuals prior to the Council,
Ludwig Ott, or the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, or the Spanish Jesuits, the Summa of
Sacred Theology, they have Mariology right after Christology. In other words, we've examined now
the mystery of Christ, and we have to look at the mystery of his mother. So, this is what worries
me, that yes, it's good to look at Mary in relationship to culture and popular devotions.
That's to be included, but we have to have a solid doctrinal foundation of Mary in relation
to the mystery of salvation. That's where she appears, at the center of the salvific events
of St. John Paul II. There is a woman, and Pope Francis has said there's no salvation without
the woman. But I could mention one other thing here. In 2011, it actually came out in 2012,
the International Theological Commission came out with a document called Theology Today,
and in many ways it's quite good about theological method, looking at scripture
and the magisterium and so on, but I did a word search, not a single mention of the Blessed Mother,
not even like an appeal to Mary as Sede Sapientiae at the end, and then I looked under different,
you know, Blessed Mother, Virgin, nothing. Then I met a member of the International Theological
Commission, Sister Sarah Butler, and I made this observation to her, and she said, well,
there was a little section on Mary, but we were told the document was too long, so we had to cut
it out. Isn't that extraordinary, that that's the first place you would look to edit? The Mother of
God, who, if you believe the Church, if you believe the Popes, and if you believe her herself and her
messages, is precisely what the Church needs for restoration, let alone an era of peace for the
world. I mean, and you know, Robert, I don't want to be utilitarian with events that are happening
in the world today, but I think, again, this ivory tower concept that we just eliminate the Mother
because we don't have room for her is really a model that's hitting a lot of theology. So what
that Theological Commission did is frightfully apropos of or indicative of what's happening all
over. Well, we couldn't get through the ecclesiology. Well, we didn't get to the Mary, you know, in the
last couple classes, or I mean, this is, again, the concept of her just as a pious figure, you know,
at the end of whatever we do, we might say, Hail Mary, but we're not seeing her as the answer,
the remedy, and again, the champions like the de Montfort's, the Colby's, the Bernard of Clairvaux,
the Bonaventure's, the Bernadine of Siena's, all the way through Alphonso's, of course,
all the way through understood exactly what you're saying that the theological truth about
Our Lady, and it's not just mediation, understanding fully her immaculate conception, as Colby did,
engaging her perpetual virginity, why it's so important, as Jerome did. It's not just the
mediation, it's that we understand who she is better when we understand the other four dogmas,
the systematic treatment of those, and then why that is all encapsulated in the truth about her
mediation. That's why, for example, and again, we stay in total obedience to the December 30th,
2020 statement of the bishop, the new bishop in Amsterdam, but when we make references to
Amsterdam, we can't make references to the messages as authentic as they were designated for 18 years,
so we respect that, but in the reported messages, again, since there's no forbidden books in the
church, she says the dogma of Mary co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate will be the last and
greatest. Why the greatest? Greater than mother of God, greater than the immaculate conception,
it's the greatest because it encapsulates those, it presupposes those, it manifests those
in her mediation to us, so she's our immaculate mediatrix. That's right. John Paul says she's not
co-redemptrix unless she's first the immaculate conception, so it's not excluding those, it's just
the full action of the mother to participate in saving souls, and as we grow closer to a World
War III, in possibly saving the world. That's why we've got to do the full truth about Our Lady
dogmatically, systematically, scripture, tradition, magisterium, and in action as it relates to today.
Exactly, and we have to remember that when Blessed Pius IX defined the immaculate conception,
it was in reference to her role in salvation history, that God from all eternity chose a
mother for his only begotten son because he foresaw the lamentable fall of the human race,
so she is to have the complete victory with her son over the infernal serpent. That's all there
in a fabulis deus. That's why in those reported apparitions at Amsterdam, I know we can't say
they're authentic, but the Blessed Mother, I recall saying, the theologians will find
the dogma of co-redemption in the immaculate conception. Yeah, right, that's right, that's
right. So the foundation is already there, it just has to be made explicit. I just want to make
one comment about the International Theological Commission. Pope Francis, on December 5th, 2014,
gave an address to them, and he emphasized the importance of the Immaculate Virgin Mary
in theology, which they had ignored, or they removed. They didn't ignore it, they removed it,
which was self-conscious. Right, which reminds me of what happened at the Council, right, when
Pope Paul VI essentially told the bishops twice, include, declare Mary as mother of the church.
They wouldn't do it, and the Polish bishop, Seventy Strong, made another petition,
Holy Father, you do it. And again, Paul VI wanted it to come out of the Council fathers,
but you had people, again, God rest their souls, like Father Laurentan, who was a dear friend,
but I couldn't disagree with him more on several points, said you can't call her mother the church,
she's only daughter of the church. And we were having a lunch after a Pontifical Marian Academy
celebration in 2000, he said, well, yeah, when Paul VI made the declaration, I accepted it then,
even though I did not like it, because she should only be daughter of the church. Well, I mean,
in a certain sense, that's big of you that you accepted it after, but we all accepted it
afterwards. It's this thing where sometimes the Holy Father himself has to step it up, because
for whatever reason, others, including bishops in some cases, are not seeing the mother as the
answer given by the Trinity to help us through this. So I pray the Holy Father, Pope Francis,
will do it again. Only God knows the timing of this, but I can tell you one thing, Robert,
the more we pray and petition and do our work, the more we will advance the cause. And ultimately,
it's a fidelity, not success thing, if we do it out of love of Our Lady and out of the truth.
At the same time, I think our mother's 10 months pregnant with this dogma. I think she wants to
give birth to this thing, so that she can start helping the world situation. And I've always
maintained that two factors are going to bring this forward, either grace and or tragedy. Well,
the grace is there, now we're getting a ton of tragedy. And sometimes tragedy helps to focus us
back on what is essentially important, rather than things we'd like to do, or things that are
nicely on our list. What is quintessential for the church now? And I think the mother is very much
part of that. And I want to lead us to our discussion about Mary and the Synod too, but any
comments you have on that, and then we can kind of conclude with talking about the Synod and Mary in
the recent Part One Concluded Synod. Yes, I would just mention that in that address in 2014,
Pope Francis talked about how Mary was a privileged witness of the great events of salvation history.
Then he talks about how she was a woman of contemplation, kept all these things in her heart.
And then he ends by saying, May Our Lady, the teacher of authentic theology, obtain for us
through her maternal prayer, that our charity may abound more and more with knowledge and all
discernment. But he refers to the Blessed Mother, I remember reading it, La Maestra dell'Authentica
Theologia, the mother of authentic theology. And she is, without the mother, we will not
understand really what he has more recently called a sapiential dimension of theology.
That Pope Francis says theology has to be leading to wisdom. It's ultimately leading to the wisdom
of God. So we have to keep that in mind. But on the Synod, yes, there's been a lot of discussion
about this. But I think the important thing is to keep in mind, we've now gone through the one
part of the Synod, and then the next one will come in October of 2024. But at the end of the summary
report on the Synod, this is what it says. It again refers to, we have these great hopes,
how will this happen? Well, Mary asked herself in Nazareth, after listening to the word,
the answer is only one, to remain in the shadow of the Spirit and let yourself be enveloped by
his power. This is the remedy. And then it ends by saying, as we turn our gaze to the time that
separates us from the second session, we thank the Lord for this journey undertaken thus far,
and for the graces with which he has blessed us. We entrust the next phase to the intercession
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, a sign of certain hope and consolation in the journey of the
faithful people of God and of the holy apostles, Simon and Jude, whose feast day occurs today,
because it was on October 28th. So, in other words, those in participating in the Synod,
for the vast majority of bishops, asked for the intercession of Our Lady. Then in an earlier part
of the Synod report, it points to women in the life and mission of the Church, and then it says,
Mary of Nazareth, woman of faith and mother of God, remains for everyone an extraordinary source
of meaning from a theological, ecclesial, and spiritual point of view. She reminds us of the
universal call to listen carefully to God and remain open to the Holy Spirit. She has known
the joy of giving birth and growing and has endured pain and suffering. She gave birth in precarious
conditions, had the experience of being a refugee, and lived through the torment of the brutal
killing of her son, but she also knew the splendor of the resurrection and the glory of Pentecost.
So, I'm glad that the Synod did not neglect Our Lady, that she's there really as the model of
contemplation, but also the second phase has been entrusted to her maternal intercession. Now, of
course, the Synod, as Pope Francis said, is not to change Catholic doctrine, but to look how the
Church could be more responsive to the needs of today in obedience to the Holy Spirit, but I would
hope that the role of Mary will become even more prominent in the second phase. Yeah, I would agree
on that. I would agree, Robert, that again, the mother can't be seen as just a pious afterthought,
and I'm not saying that that's what the Synod did, because it's a beautiful thing at the end to
entrust phase two to Mary, but if you entrust it to the mother, then let her do something with it.
Be docile to the mother in phase two. Let there be more of specifics regarding the role of Mary
for authentic Church renewal, but also for bringing the Church to the world, which is what
Second Vatican Council was all about to begin with. So, if we're concerned about how do we best
bring Christ to people, especially people in particular need, marginal, who's better going
to instruct us on that than the mother? But we're going to have to have the humility of letting her
in some real sense take charge to have a full, a more prominent role in these. I'm not saying it
should be a marriological Synod as the likes of which we've been talking about up to this point.
I'm saying, how are we going to do that? How are you going to let Our Lady enter in? Could you start
each session with a rosary? Could you, you know, make sure that there's some adoration at the Synod,
which includes time for Mary in prayer? I mean, look, if we want this to happen practically,
it should follow in the outline. And I would also hope, Robert, that, and again, thank God that
they ended with that, but if the Synod is listening to the people, I hope they'll listen to eight
million of them. Eight million people have asked the Holy Father to proclaim Our Lady. I'm not saying
at the Synod, but if you're going to summarize the Vox Populi, how can you do that
without including eight million people, which is the longest per annum partition drive by the year
in the history of the Catholic Church? So I would just hope that they take a significant step
towards bringing Our Lady into both the needs of the Church and the world, and also
a situation where they incorporate a more proximate role of Our Lady during the process
of the Synod as well. Yes, I agree with you very, very, very much, and I think the Holy Father,
Pope Francis, in November, it was in a video, he humbly asked for prayers this month for him.
He said, you know, being Pope is difficult. I experience criticisms, and as we know on in
social media, there are many criticisms of Pope Francis, and I mean, I think he welcomes
constructive criticisms, but some of them, sadly, are really frightening. The language used of
disrespect, and we must always remember how important it is to pray for the Holy Father
and remain united with Him, as Saint Pius X said in his major catechism,
in heart and mind, we must remember to be united with the Holy Father, and Sister Lucia, in her calls
from the message of Fatima, now this was published in 1997, but she said, we must believe in the Church,
trust in it, respect it, love it, and pay heed to its teaching, follow in its footsteps, and remain
united with its head, who is Christ in the person of the Supreme Pontiff of Rome, the one true
vicar of Christ on earth, head of the mystical body of Christ, of which we are members, all members by our
faith in Christ. So, at these Marian apparitions, like at Fatima, the Blessed Mother said,
the Holy Father will have much to suffer. You know, as you know, in the petitions for the new dogma,
many bishops and cardinals have joined in, and we're grateful for that, but according to
Vatican I, the Pope does not need the consensus of all the bishops. He could be moved by the Holy
Spirit to proclaim a dogma of his own supreme authority. Yeah, critically important point,
Robert, you're right. There's been over 650 bishops just in the last 25 years that have written
to the Holy Father's asking for this, but ultimately it's his call. He can make an exercise
of papal infallibility on his own, and I believe our Holy Father has a deep love of our Blessed
Mother, and every time there's crisis, and again, he does it in terms of statements to theological
commissions, but he also does it, you know, when there's a potential war between the U.S. and Syria,
or when the Ukraine-Russia thing flares up, and he goes to the Mother, makes a consecration,
or when he's calling for a day of prayer and fasting in the situation of Israel and Palestine,
and he brings the image of Salus Populi Romani, you know, salvation of the Roman people, that icon
of Our Lady, Santa Maria Maggiore, and brings it to the Vatican. So he does default Marian,
and I think it's a perfect way to end this program, Robert. First of all, on obedience.
When you make reference to the Holy Father, to the Vicar of Christ on earth, in faith and morals,
we're not talking about vaccines, we're not talking about, you know, Argentinian world
soccer, we're talking about faith and morals. When one does not accept that, one becomes a source of
division. When one makes reference to the Vicar of Christ as a, quote, usurper of the chair of
Peter, that's gravely serious, or even says that the Pope uses the voice of Satan as if it was the
voice of the Holy Spirit. These are absolutely unacceptable concepts for any authentic Catholic.
So, obedience. One can never, ever claim Our Blessed Mother in a disobedience to the Vicar of
Christ, because the seed of wisdom herself, the Immaculate One, she who had 30 years with Jesus,
let alone the three in ministry, obeyed Peter. And it doesn't mean that Peter, in his fallen
humanness, had perfect prudence. It means that the mother who did have wisdom, which is the
perfection of prudence, obeyed Peter. So, we have to follow that example. And we always obey the
Vicar of Christ. We never quote Our Lady or try to justify Our Lady in any act of disobedience.
And then we can rest in peace and hope that the Holy Father will respond to the Holy Spirit.
And that's our prayer. And the more we do proper Mariology, the more we support and give a platform
and a foundation for an ultimate definition. And that's why, both in truth and in love, we're
called to do this. And that's why even praying the prayer of the Lady of All Nations, as we did at the
beginning, I think that's the one-two punch. It's prayer, and it's the theological work that will
make this thing happen. Because, again, to quote the reported messages, which we don't say are authentic,
although we can personally believe them, that's within the license of the Church, but we don't
state that, the outcome is already assured. I believe this dogma will happen. The question is,
when will it happen? The sooner the better for both the Church and the world. So, thank you,
Robert. As always, it's always a great conversation. You know, I should mention to our listeners,
we start getting at it as soon as we get on the phone. And I said, well, I better press
the record button, because this is fun stuff. And that's the glory of, you know, appreciating
the great truth about Our Lady. So, thanks for another great episode of Mariology Without Apology,
Robert. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, Mark. And God bless you, and we'll be united in prayer
for the Holy Father, for the next phases of the Synod, for the future of the Church, and for peace
in the world. Amen. Exactly. And thank all of you for being with us. God bless you all.