Title: What If God Is Calling Us to Speak? | Jeremiah 33, Crisis & Courage | Perspectives S4E4 Scripture: Jeremiah 33:1-3 Draft YouTube Description: When we're in the dark, God's word still comes to us but it’s a messy and hard word and often requires long, hard work. So, what are we to do? That’s what Revs. Trudy and Brittany discuss in this episode of Perspectives. Inspired by the story of the “weeping prophet” Jeremiah, the female pastors discuss the reluctance of Old Testament messengers – and the prophets of today – in delivering the difficult words of God. In this conversation, they explore: • The advantages and disadvantages of youth to receive and deliver God’s word • The difficulties that prophets and pastors face when delivering the word of God • The concept of “society is you” – we all have the agency to make change but we also need to acknowledge that we’re also all part of the problem • Why churches often don’t preach about the prophets • How to hear a hard word from God in the midst of challenge • Jeremiah 29:11 being misappropriated for prosperity Gospel • The danger of using God as a scapegoat for bad things that happen • How Christian Nationalists have usurped the message to lay blame to others for current problems • How to hold the tension between a grace-filled God and justice-driven God • Jeremiah’s role in helping people see and speak to the injustices of their society • How prophets come in various forms and don’t always speak on behalf of God in a religious way This episode wraps up our four-week series, “God Is Still Speaking: Listening in a Noisy World,” exploring what the voice of God might sound and look like in our lives today. Previous episodes explored God’s quiet nudges and whispers, dramatic interruptions and visions, and our misperceived long silence and absence of the Divine. Whether you're exploring progressive Christianity, deconstructing your faith, studying the Bible, pursuing justice, wrestling with theology, or simply asking honest questions about Scripture, we hope you'll join the conversation. Reflection Questions 1. When life feels constricted, what can you do to look for something new emerging? 2. Is God in any part of part bad news? 3. What burns in your heart that you can’t keep to yourself? Continue the Conversation Connect with our faith community in person or online as you reflect on the themes of this episode: • Convergence discussion group (Sundays at 12 PM): https://www.fumcsd.org/events • Join our Patreon community: https://www.patreon.com/fumcsd Timestamps 00:00 #ProgressiveChristianity #ChristianPodcast #Jeremiah #ProgressiveTheology #FaithAndJustice #BibleStudy #Faith #Theology #FUMCSD YouTube search phrases God still speaks, hearing God's voice, how to hear God, God's voice in the Bible, Jeremiah Bible study, Jeremian 33 Bible study, God speaking to us, hearing God in a noisy world, progressive Christian podcast, progressive Christianity, progressive Christian Bible study, Christian podcast, First United Methodist Church of San Diego Transcript 00:00:00:09 - 00:00:26:21 Rev. Trudy When we're in the dark, God's word comes to us and it's messy. It is a hard word and the hard work of grace. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. 00:00:26:21 - 00:00:58:10 Rev. Trudy I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Brittany Juliette Hanlin, and we are continuing our conversation asking about how to listen and a noisy world because we believe God is still speaking. And today we hear a word in the darkness from the prophet Jeremiah. And so, we're just going to jump right in Jeremiah chapter 33, verses 1-3. 00:00:58:12 - 00:01:27:16 Rev. Trudy This is what it says: "While he was still confined to the prison quarters, the Lord's word came to Jeremiah a second time. 'The Lord proclaims, the Lord who made the earth, who formed and established it, whose name is the Lord called to me, and I will answer and reveal to you wondrous secrets that you haven't known.'" 00:01:27:18 - 00:01:29:05 Rev. Trudy That's a good one. 00:01:29:07 - 00:01:30:00 Rev. Brittany It's a good one. 00:01:30:00 - 00:01:32:12 Rev. Trudy I have questions, though. 00:01:32:13 - 00:01:33:07 Rev. Brittany I have a lot. 00:01:33:07 - 00:01:50:00 Rev. Trudy Of questions, though. Right? So, this is Jeremiah, chapter 33, 32 chapters ahead of this. And this is the second time God has talked to him. Right? And the first time was in Jeremiah chapter one. Right. 00:01:50:03 - 00:01:50:23 Rev. Brittany It's his call story. 00:01:51:00 - 00:01:55:17 Rev. Trudy His call story. Yeah. Do you want to tell us about the call story, the first one? 00:01:55:19 - 00:01:56:16 Rev. Brittany Sure. 00:01:56:17 - 00:01:57:20 Rev. Trudy I know that you know it. 00:01:57:21 - 00:01:58:19 Rev. Brittany I know that. Yeah. 00:01:58:20 - 00:01:59:16 Rev. Trudy Tell us. 00:01:59:17 - 00:02:16:09 Rev. Brittany Jeremiah's a little a young man. God calls him, tells him that he's going to preach — and not preach, but profess the word that God has given to him. And Jeremiah is like, ‘no, I'm too young. I don't know enough.’ And God is like, ‘no, I've called you.’ 00:02:16:10 - 00:02:33:21 Rev. Brittany Like, ‘who are you to tell me like that? You're not good enough to do this,’ right? And God tells Jeremiah that he's going to proclaim the word that is also about tearing down and building back up. Which is a hard word to receive at any age, but particularly as a young man. 00:02:33:23 - 00:02:56:03 Rev. Trudy Yes, I like Jeremiah. And it too, I like him for a lot of reasons. I like that he was young and God came to him and used him and said, youth is not an excuse, right? I liked some of the things that he has said. You know, there's some really powerful scripture. You know, “I'm going to write the covenant on your heart.” 00:02:56:05 - 00:03:16:15 Rev. Trudy You don't need anything else. It's going to be right there. I like the way he talks about being, knowing Jeremiah while he was created in the womb, this sense of purpose in his life. And, we look at every newborn, and we fill that newborn, protect on to that newborn, all sorts of hopes and dreams. 00:03:16:17 - 00:03:30:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And so, he's called and God says, “I'm going to be with you.” And you really don't have a choice when God calls. 00:03:30:17 - 00:03:54:14 Rev. Trudy But then as you said, God says, “you're going to be a part of the digging up and the pulling down and the destruction and the demolish and the building up.” And I kind of think that's what he was doing between chapter 1 and chapter 33. Yeah, right. 00:03:54:17 - 00:04:07:15 Rev. Brittany Jeremiah was going through a lot. Yeah. There's a lot happening to the people, to the community. Yeah. People didn't like what he had to say because often no one wants to hear what the prophets know. The hard word. 00:04:07:17 - 00:04:09:14 Rev. Trudy Well, and really, do the prophets want to say it?! 00:04:09:14 - 00:04:12:07 Rev. Brittany Correct. Who was it? Who knows? Who doesn't? 00:04:12:08 - 00:04:36:18 Rev. Trudy Right. You know, I always think it's funny when somebody in the church will accuse us of being thoughtless in our words of Scripture or whatever that is, right? Or whatever action we've done. That “you just didn't give that any thought because you've hurt me.” And it's kind of like, that is not what we signed up for. 00:04:36:18 - 00:04:54:07 Rev. Trudy We don't want to hurt anybody. Right. But. But sometimes … right? And to be such a young boy, I wonder if that has any, the, his youth, helped him hear those hard words better. 00:04:54:09 - 00:05:16:22 Rev. Brittany I think sometimes, I think it's a double-edged sword. I think that when you're young, you have more hope and optimism, and, there's, you also have the eyes to see things a little differently because you haven't been here as long. And so, it's like, well, why do we do it like this? And why haven't we done it? 00:05:16:23 - 00:05:40:04 Rev. Brittany Tried it this way or whatever. And then I think it's the other edge of the sword, is that people assume, because you are a younger person, that you don't have any wisdom or you don't have experience and or that you they project feelings of your youth onto them as though you don't value them because they're older. 00:05:40:04 - 00:05:42:08 Rev. Brittany When you're really right, you know? 00:05:42:13 - 00:05:43:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:05:43:02 - 00:05:50:01 Rev. Brittany Trying to live in a world of both what has been and what is and what could be. 00:05:50:02 - 00:06:13:23 Rev. Trudy Right? Right. It really is that balance between the wisdom of age. You know, having, in some ways. Yeah, I know, I know when that variation of that idea came around the first time, there's some wisdom and being able to learn from the things that we've tried and we and didn't work. But, like you said, I remember when I was his age, roughly. 00:06:14:00 - 00:06:32:05 Rev. Trudy Right. I, a young kid, and just thinking, “well, why don't we just do this?” “Why can't it just be like this?” And do you have this idea that anything's possible? I think. And you also have a sharp eye to say, “yeah, that shouldn't happen.” Right. 00:06:32:08 - 00:06:35:05 Rev. Brittany Oh yeah. Oh yeah. 00:06:35:10 - 00:06:45:05 Rev. Trudy I remember my dad was coaching me because I had to write a speech for graduation. I was one of the graduation speakers and— 00:06:45:07 - 00:06:46:07 Rev. Brittany I'm shocked by that. 00:06:46:08 - 00:06:52:08 Rev. Trudy Well, I was the number two, not number one. So. Okay. So, there you go. Back off. 00:06:52:13 - 00:06:52:18 Rev. Brittany Sorry. 00:06:52:20 - 00:07:22:12 Rev. Trudy Just, you know. Yeah. And the. But he said: “you just need to remember that society is you.” I think that was the word he used. And it was just the idea that I, if I was angry at something happening in the world, I needed to know that I had both the agency to do something about it, but also, I could also be part of the problem. 00:07:22:16 - 00:07:24:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Right. Yeah. 00:07:24:11 - 00:07:26:15 Rev. Brittany I think we're all a part of the problem. 00:07:26:18 - 00:07:27:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:27:12 - 00:07:49:14 Rev. Brittany All I mean, I think we've, I, we've talked about this before, but I think we're, we, none of us, are exempt from the issues of the society that we live in. Right? You know, the world that we live in, the world that we inhabit, we're all a part of it. But we do get to make choices in ways to use our agency to make things better, even if it's just small change. 00:07:49:15 - 00:07:58:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah. You know, but it can feel overwhelming. It's like, “well, can I do anything?” But I think we can. 00:07:58:10 - 00:08:10:06 Rev. Trudy So, I think Jeremiah gives us a little bit of a clue as to what to do. Maybe I like to think that there's something in here that I can take home with me. He was known as the weeping prophet. 00:08:10:06 - 00:08:12:00 Rev. Brittany I was literally about to say the same. We can cry. 00:08:12:02 - 00:08:13:06 Rev. Trudy We can cry. 00:08:13:08 - 00:08:13:14 Rev. Brittany Cry. 00:08:13:15 - 00:08:52:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah, well, he's thought to have at least it was a tradition holds that he wrote Lamentations. And surely, he had years to experience the same kind of difficulty that many of our prophets that we've talked about have gone through with the Babylonian conquest and the exile. You know, it's the same time period that all of the prophets are called to within that to try and name the world and all of its problems and to be able to say, “you need to you need to hang in there and be better.” 00:08:52:03 - 00:08:54:18 Rev. Trudy “The whole world needs to be better,” right? 00:08:54:21 - 00:08:57:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean. 00:08:57:18 - 00:09:24:09 Rev. Trudy And I love this about Jeremiah. Sorry. Did I cut you off? I just, I just, I don't love that he was being persecuted by others, by other prophets and other priests. And he had a lot to weep for because it was brutal for him to be the one to say what was going on, to be the one. 00:09:24:11 - 00:09:39:07 Rev. Trudy We're going to come back to that face right there in a minute here. But in fact, he was prophesying that Babylonian army would conquer. 00:09:39:09 - 00:09:44:02 Rev. Trudy And people were mad. “What do you mean? We're going to lose the war?? No.” 00:09:44:03 - 00:09:45:23 Rev. Brittany “Don't say that. Don't fear mongering.” 00:09:46:04 - 00:10:04:13 Rev. Trudy There you go. That's right. In fact, the king's officials, including the priests, tried to convince King Jedidiah that Jeremiah should be put to death for disheartening the soldiers and the people. I think that's hilarious in a horrible way. Right? 00:10:04:14 - 00:10:05:09 Rev. Brittany No. For real. 00:10:05:10 - 00:10:12:05 Rev. Trudy But. Yeah. Right. It's like, don't tell the truth. 00:10:12:06 - 00:10:12:23 Rev. Brittany Don't tell the truth. 00:10:12:23 - 00:10:22:03 Rev. Trudy Don't tell the truth. Pretend it didn't happen. Take those things out of that museum because that's not the story we want to tell. Right. 00:10:22:05 - 00:10:22:23 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:10:23:00 - 00:10:30:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Truth telling. From a young man. You bet. He got death threats. 00:10:30:04 - 00:10:30:23 Rev. Brittany For sure. 00:10:31:01 - 00:10:31:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:10:31:18 - 00:10:57:03 Rev. Brittany It's not. There's nothing about the lives of the prophets that is easy. Not one of them. Right. You know none of them had it easy. And so sometimes I think if I'm telling the truth and shame in the devil, I'm gonna do it. I think that's part of the reason that we often as the church big C, don't preach on the prophets because it's too complicated. 00:10:57:04 - 00:11:08:06 Rev. Brittany It's too messy. We don't want to hear the bad thing. You know we can only handle one sad story a year and that's Jesus' crucifixion. But then he rises on Easter, right? 00:11:08:07 - 00:11:09:07 Rev. Trudy And it's like. That's right. 00:11:09:09 - 00:11:33:02 Rev. Brittany Okay. But I do think that there is something to be learned from the prophets. And having to one hear a hard word from God in the midst of challenge, and to also believe that God is doing something even in the midst of the destruction, even in the midst of the exile, even in the midst of all of the calamity that God is still at work. 00:11:33:02 - 00:11:51:23 Rev. Brittany And I think, I, every time I read a prophet story, I'm reminded it just feels so parallel, right, to some of the issues that we're experiencing in our own lives. Right? You know. Right. And societal structure. Right. 00:11:52:01 - 00:12:14:14 Rev. Trudy And I and I think about Jeremiah with that word to say and to say it over and over and over again in that context that it seems like every week in this series, we have been saying this is around like Babylonian exile and the Babylonian the wars and all the, and it's the same context over and over and over again. 00:12:14:15 - 00:12:37:11 Rev. Trudy Right. And we can't quite seem to get out of it. We'll talk more about that, I think, in our further conversation. But to your point, there's bad stuff that some people feel more than others. And the prophet really comes to be able to say, “you're just not seeing it, but it's going to come to you at some point.” 00:12:37:12 - 00:12:37:22 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:12:37:23 - 00:12:38:15 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:12:38:19 - 00:12:39:08 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:12:39:12 - 00:12:40:14 Rev. Brittany Yeah, it's on the way. 00:12:40:14 - 00:12:46:02 Rev. Trudy And it's so sad, because Jeremiah is often quoted with Jeremiah 29:11. 00:12:48:03 - 00:12:56:18 Rev. Trudy “‘For I know the plans I have for you,’ declares the Lord, ‘plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.’” Right? 00:12:56:19 - 00:13:05:02 Rev. Brittany I loved that when I was 16, and then I was 23 exegeting it and I'm like, “Ooooh.” 00:13:05:04 - 00:13:07:17 Rev. Trudy It didn’t mean what you think it meant. It didn’t mean what you think it meant. 00:13:07:17 - 00:13:12:06 Rev. Trudy In the context of some pretty horrible stuff going back. 00:13:12:08 - 00:13:36:07 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. In fact, after Jeremiah was thrown into prison, actually, before he was thrown into prison, those who were coming after him to kill him, through him in a bath of mud so that he would suffocate for the mud, and the people who put him in there would be freed from responsibility because, “he didn't kill him.” 00:13:36:20 - 00:13:39:08 Rev. Trudy Just put him in the they just put him in the vat with mud. 00:13:39:09 - 000:13:42:07 Rev. Brittany Just like Joseph's brothers just left him. Just tried him. 00:13:42:07 - 00:13:46:10 Rev. Trudy “Let him suffocate on his own.” But we didn't do it. Right. 00:13:46:11 - 00:13:54:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Horrible things are gone. And we see this scripture that people have used for a prosperity gospel. 00:13:54:08 - 00:14:02:05 Rev. Brittany Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But we don't tell the full story, and that's why it's important to— 00:14:02:17 - 00:14:06:14 Rev. Trudy Well, let's talk about the full story. Can we? Can we? 00:14:06:16 - 00:14:08:17 Rev. Brittany Let's get. Into it. Let's dive in. 00:14:08:18 - 00:14:09:02 Speaker 4 Rev. Trudy 00:14:09:03 - 00:14:16:14 Rev. Trudy So, the prophets, right? The prophets. There is always a waywardness. 00:14:16:16 - 00:14:34:06 Rev. Trudy Of the people of Israel. That the prophets say “you need to turn back to God.” On the surface that sounds, “Yeah, we all probably need to do that.” And yet, there is the implied and sometimes stated fact that God is doing this to you. 00:14:34:17 - 00:14:56:18 Rev. Trudy Because you have strayed, right. “You have not done the right thing. You have broken the covenant. You are misbehaving. You are not believing the right things. You are not doing the right things.” And in fact, in this one, what they have … well, let me see where I can find it in my notes… 00:14:56:20 - 00:15:05:04 Rev. Trudy “They were worshiping the idols of Baal. And burning their children as offerings to Baal.” 00:15:05:06 - 00:15:14:20 Rev. Trudy That's in there. Oh, right there. And they are doing some horrible, horrible things. But, MY God 00:15:14:22 - 00:15:23:15 Rev. Trudy doesn't do the same thing to the chosen people. Right? You know what I mean? 00:15:23:17 - 00:15:27:03 Rev. Brittany Say it … say it… to any, what do you mean? 00:15:27:03 - 00:15:33:04 Rev. Trudy What I hear in this story is that…this is how I would rewrite the book. 00:15:33:06 - 00:15:34:02 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:15:34:04 - 00:15:54:08 Rev. Trudy Can I rewrite the book? You know, the Israelite people doing horrible things, worshiping the wrong things. I get it, that's awful. That's horrible. The covenant is for God to be with the people if the people do the right things. 00:15:54:10 - 00:16:19:00 Rev. Trudy Otherwise, God will leave. God will punish. God will be absent, and you'll be on your own and you will have no more blessings. Right. Now, that's the way it's written. But, and I think that is in part the result of some of our bad behavior, we do feel disconnected with God. We do not feel the blessings anymore. 00:16:19:00 - 00:16:25:20 Rev. Trudy We do feel all the horrible things. I don't think it's God doing that to us. 00:16:25:22 - 00:16:26:11 Rev. Trudy Right? 00:16:26:12 - 00:16:26:22 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:16:27:02 - 00:16:32:10 Rev. Trudy Right. I also think it's really dangerous to say that it is God doing that to us. 00:16:32:12 - 00:16:35:07 Rev. Brittany Oh yeah. For sure. 00:16:35:09 - 00:16:46:13 Rev. Brittany I mean, people do things all the time and use God as a scapegoat for them or bad things happen and you assume that God's hand is in that. 00:16:46:15 - 00:16:47:01 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:16:47:02 - 00:16:56:19 Rev. Brittany I don't necessarily agree with that God is, you know, up on a cloud and, you know, breaking people down. 00:16:56:20 - 00:17:08:15 Rev. Trudy And I think why it bothers me so much is the way this is embraced by Christian Nationalists. 00:17:08:17 - 00:17:51:21 Rev. Trudy Right. It's a covenant with God and the waywardness prevents the blessings of God. Right. And then Christian Nationalists ideals, the Americans have become the chosen people and America the promised land. And if America is not being triumphant in many of these Old Testament kind of ways, that means the American people have gone wayward. And we need to correct the behavior of those who are wayward and punish them on behalf of a God who would and who did. 00:17:51:23 - 00:18:23:22 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah. That makes sense. It's the whole, it's the whole conversation we had about the American exceptionalism, and it's only a certain kind of American. Right. It's the Americans who do this, who do this, who do that and who believe this, who understand the covenant, who understand the Scripture appropriately. Right. And anybody else, is beyond God's favor and needs to be dealt with, because that's where the waywardness is. 00:18:24:00 - 00:18:24:12 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:18:24:13 - 00:18:41:19 Rev. Brittany It's, I mean, yes, all the things that you are saying, about … it's, I mean, it's one way to read it. And people are reading it as such, you know. Yeah. I think for me... 00:18:41:21 - 00:19:12:04 Rev. Brittany It's complicated because I do believe in a God of grace. Right. I do believe in a God of grace. But I also struggle right with the idea that God won't punish or make right. Right? As someone who has been oppressed, historically, thinking about oppression, it's very difficult for me sometimes to just be like, to just have … 00:19:12:06 - 00:19:32:10 Rev. Brittany just have a God that is so forgiving that no wrongs are righted and are made right. And that doesn't mean like a smite, but it means like justice, right? And so, I kind of struggle with that a little bit because I do, I do believe… 00:19:32:12 - 00:20:06:17 Rev. Brittany Even in, like, children being corrected or whatever, you do it in love, but they still need to be, corrected, so I don't necessarily want God to take God's self away from God's people, which is all of us. But I do feel a deep yearning for wanting justice. Not vengeance, necessarily, but some type of like recognition of the suffering of the people. 00:20:06:19 - 00:20:12:13 Rev. Brittany And the people who are causing the suffering. Does that make sense? 00:20:12:15 - 00:20:18:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I mean, I understand. Yeah, I understand. And I think that's a very ... 00:20:18:14 - 00:20:19:21 Rev. Brittany Slippery slope. 00:20:19:23 - 00:20:52:01 Rev. Trudy Sure. Yeah, I'm sure. And a very real human understanding or feeling emotion. Right. I know the people like, Father Gregory Boyle. He's the one that I think about, who really believes in the grace stuff. Right. And in his work with gang people who have done horrible things and have not repented. 00:20:52:03 - 00:21:10:15 Rev. Trudy At least in ways that are “over and done.” But he, Gregory Boyle, will offer grace and forgive—his book—"Forgive Everyone Everything.” 00:21:10:17 - 00:21:15:03 Rev. Trudy Right. And so. Yes it. 00:21:15:03 - 00:21:15:14 Rev. Brittany Is it. 00:21:15:14 - 00:21:20:01 Rev. Trudy Is a hard thing. 00:21:20:03 - 00:21:23:04 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:21:23:06 - 00:21:24:14 Rev. Trudy Maybe we shouldn't have gone down this rabbit hole. 00:21:24:15 - 00:21:25:15 Rev. Brittany No, I mean we did. 00:21:25:16 - 00:21:30:17 Rev. Brittany And it's I think it's important though. Yeah. Because it's, I think it's a both-and. 00:21:30:21 - 00:21:32:07 Rev. Trudy Well and I. Yeah. 00:21:32:08 - 00:21:33:00 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:21:33:00 - 00:21:34:02 Rev. Trudy So, let's take this. 00:21:34:02 - 00:21:59:10 Rev. Trudy Take God out of this story here. Because we do know that so much of this is in the context of what they understood and what their theologies were and those kinds of things. And we're very sad that kind of theology can continue. Right. But in the base of this, I think it is God telling Jeremiah to help people see. 00:22:01:16 - 00:22:26:08 Rev. Trudy And to tell the truth about it, you know. Whether that is the Babylonian army is much bigger and they're coming. What are we going to do? Are we going to fight and have everybody dead on the battlefield? What's going to happen? You know, or whether it is, whether it is people, you are not. 00:22:26:09 - 00:22:58:02 Rev. Trudy You are not. Let me back up. When Jeremiah was first called, there were two main sins that God said Jeremiah needed to address with the people. The first sin was they had abandoned God. And in fact, in the text it says “God as the spring of living water.” And the second sin was that they were trying to replace God with their own effort, “they were they were digging their own broken cisterns.” 00:22:58:04 - 00:23:06:11 Rev. Trudy Right. So, there is that call to be back to God, because that's where the real life is. 00:23:06:11 - 00:23:07:15 Rev. Trudy That's where the real hope is. 00:23:07:15 - 00:23:12:07 Rev. Trudy And you can have that broken system, and you can say that it’s all about vengeance. 00:23:12:07 - 00:23:44:00 Rev. Trudy It's all about who wins the war. It's all about who does the right thing, or it is the spring of living water that sprinkles on everybody that is accessible to everybody. And that's the tension I feel in this storytelling. Yeah. Right. Because I believe in that spring of living water and what it can do. And I don't think we have any idea of the depth of what it can do. 00:23:44:01 - 00:24:06:10 Rev. Trudy In with justice, in truth telling, and laying forth a path of difference so that everything will be better. And yet, this isn't told in this way. And it breaks my heart. Right. For the way in which it confuses things. Yeah. 00:24:06:12 - 00:24:37:23 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean, I agree with you saying that God is calling the people. I think God's calling the people to wake up, to pay attention to, alert their eyes to, what is and what is coming. Right. Yeah. And what has been. I always go back to those things because I think it's true. And I think if we're talking about, like, just an example, God didn't… 00:24:38:00 - 00:25:08:05 Rev. Brittany I don't think God told, the scientist, who've been studying climate change that like this is what's happening. But they have the knowledge, right. And I do think that they are speaking prophetically, not necessarily religiously, but to say like, “these are things that we need to be paying attention to.” We were talking about this when I was in elementary school and it's like, “oh, it's escalating!” Like “this really…” And so, I think that prophets come in many different forms. 00:25:08:10 - 00:25:16:09 Rev. Brittany They're not always speaking on behalf of God necessarily. I think maybe I'm… maybe I'm too woo woo. 00:25:16:10 - 00:25:18:16 Rev. Trudy They're always contextualized, right. 00:25:18:18 - 00:25:35:09 Rev. Brittany And so, I think that God is calling the people to pay attention. Then God is calling us to pay attention now. We can bicker and fight about who's right and who's wrong all day long. But “the Babylonians are coming regardless.” Right. And so, what are we going to do? 00:25:35:11 - 00:25:35:22 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:25:35:23 - 00:25:42:12 Rev. Brittany To prepare ourselves for the tearing down and the building up, you know. 00:25:42:14 - 00:25:50:06 Rev. Brittany And it's not a comfortable word to hear, you know. And Jeremiah is hearing this in prison. Yeah. You know like. 00:25:50:11 - 00:25:51:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:25:51:21 - 00:26:05:00 Rev. Brittany Nothing about God comes sweetly. You know, it's never easy, ever. And then if you go back, I mean go into the New Testament. I mean, Jesus doesn't give the sweetest words either. You know what I mean? 00:26:05:06 - 00:26:13:22 Rev. Brittany It's not necessarily hellfire and damnation. It's full of grace, but it's still a hard word to receive. 00:26:14:01 - 00:26:19:15 Rev. Trudy I think that's a really important point. Yeah. Right. Grace is a hard work. 00:26:19:16 - 00:26:21:12 Rev. Brittany Yeah. It's very hard because. 00:26:21:14 - 00:26:30:16 Rev. Trudy Because unless. Unless it's cheap grace. Right. If you're going to take the real grace, you really have to look at some of the truth. 00:26:30:17 - 00:26:31:16 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:26:31:18 - 00:26:43:09 Rev. Brittany Because I don't think to me, if you, grace, would just be cheap and discounted if it's not held in truth. 00:26:43:11 - 00:27:04:17 Rev. Brittany Of the good and the bad. Yeah. To refine us in a different way, personally. But you know, I always get down with the prophets. I do like, I do like that they're kind of mean, a little bit. I don't think that they're mean. But I do like that they got a little spice to it. I do, I do, I resonate with it. 00:27:04:19 - 00:27:06:11 Rev. Brittany I do, yeah. 00:27:06:13 - 00:27:07:13 Rev. Trudy Oh, I see that. 00:27:07:13 - 00:27:14:08 Rev. Brittany I do, I really do. You know, those are my boys. There you go. There were some girls, but... 00:27:14:12 - 00:27:14:22 Rev. Trudy Well. 00:27:14:23 - 00:27:16:22 Rev. Brittany I’ll just take Jeremiah. 00:27:17:00 - 00:27:19:17 Rev. Brittany Jeremiah the weeping prophet. 00:27:19:19 - 00:27:20:21 Rev. Trudy Good conversation. 00:27:21:00 - 00:27:21:21 Rev. Brittany No. 00:27:21:23 - 00:27:23:03 Rev. Trudy Always. 00:27:23:05 - 00:27:24:23 Rev. Brittany There's still so much to learn. 00:27:25:00 - 00:27:34:12 Rev. Brittany I'm still trying to figure out the wondrous secrets. So, if the Lord could maybe download some of those that. Yeah. To me that would be great. Yeah, that would be. 00:27:34:13 - 00:27:35:18 Rev. Trudy That would be really wonderful. 00:27:35:19 - 00:27:36:04 Rev. Brittany You know. 00:27:36:07 - 00:27:36:21 Rev. Trudy Maybe. 00:27:37:02 - 00:27:39:20 Rev. Brittany Move me in a different direction. 00:27:39:20 - 00:27:44:10 Rev. Trudy But what if it's grace, 00:27:44:12 - 00:28:01:13 Rev. Brittany GIIIRRRLLL! I have worked on grace for five years now, and I'm, I'm still working on it. Ever since I came into the Methodist church. All I hear is “grace.” And I said, well, I guess I better get on board. I better get on board. So, I am, okay, full of grace. Still working. 00:28:01:15 - 00:28:02:09 Rev. Trudy There you go. 00:28:02:13 - 00:28:08:08 Rev. Brittany Amen. That's one thing. Me and Wesley. Anyway, that's still my boy. 00:28:08:13 - 00:28:10:08 Rev. Trudy Yes. He is. 00:28:10:10 - 00:28:14:08 Rev. Brittany Yes. “The hard word of grace.” 00:28:14:10 - 00:28:18:01 Rev. Brittany Maybe that should have been the topic. “The hard work of grace.” 00:28:18:07 - 00:28:20:14 Rev. Trudy There it is. Oh! 00:28:20:16 - 00:28:24:08 Rev. Brittany Thanks for chatting with me and challenging me, as always. 00:28:24:14 - 00:28:30:04 Rev. Trudy Do it to each other, you know. Iron sharpens iron, as they say. 00:28:30:06 - 00:28:46:15 Rev. Brittany We have a few questions that we'd like for you to spend some time reflecting on. You can reflect on them on your own or with some folks who are in your life, but we hope that you'll spend some time thinking about Jeremiah and finding your own perspective in this complicated, grace-filled story. 00:28:46:20 - 00:28:48:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:28:48:01 - 00:29:09:18 Rev. Brittany Our first question is: When life feels constricted, what can you do to look for something new emerging? The second question: Is God in any part of bad news? And thirdly: What burns in your heart that you can't keep to yourself? That's our perspective. We hope that you find yours. Until next time. 00:29:09:20 - 00:29:11:19 Rev. Trudy Bye-bye. 00:29:11:21 - 00:29:27:04 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org