00:00:00:12 - 00:00:08:04 Rev. Brittany Is it ever really okay to not be okay? Well, that's what we're talking about these days after Easter. 00:00:08:06 - 00:00:34:16 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. We're having a conversation today about some pretty deep things, some things that indicate we are not okay. And so just want to warn you, we do mention suicide, so take care. 00:00:34:18 - 00:00:58:09 Rev. Brittany Hi everyone, and welcome back to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany, I'm here with Reverend Trudy. We are beginning a new series. And our series is called “The Grace of the Passion.” And this week, we are talking about, our title is: “We don't have to pretend that we're OK.” We're coming from the Gospel according to Luke, chapter 24, verses 13 through 32. 00:00:58:15 - 00:01:19:02 Rev. Brittany And I'll be reading from the Common English Bible: “Now, on that same day, two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, and talking to each other about all the things that had happened. While they were talking and discussing, Jesus himself came near and went with them, but their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 00:01:19:04 - 00:01:56:14 Rev. Brittany He said to them, ‘What are you discussing with each other while you are along your walk?’ They stood still looking sad. Then one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answered him, ‘Are you the only stranger in Jerusalem who does not know the things that have taken place there in these days?’ He asked them, ‘What things?’ They replied, ‘The things about Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and leaders handed him over to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 00:01:56:16 - 00:02:21:12 Rev. Brittany But we had hoped that he was the one that would redeem Israel. Yet, and besides all of this, it is now the third day since these things took place. Moreover, some women of our group astounded us. They were at the tomb early this morning, and when they did not find his body there, they came back and told us that they had indeed seen a vision of angels who said that he was alive. 00:02:21:14 - 00:02:40:22 Rev. Brittany Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it, just as the women said, but they did not see him.’ Then he said to them, ‘Oh, how foolish you are, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared. Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things, then enter into his glory?’ 00:02:41:00 - 00:03:01:03 Rev. Brittany Then, beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted them the things about himself and all the scriptures. As they came near to the village to which they were going, he walked ahead as if he were going on. But they urged him strongly, saying, ‘Stay with us, because it's almost evening and the day is over is nearly over now.’ 00:03:01:03 - 00:03:26:09 Rev. Brittany So he went to stay with them. When he was at the table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he vanished from their sight. They said to each other, ‘Were our hearts not burning within us while he was talking to us on the road, while he was opening up the scriptures to us?’” 00:03:26:11 - 00:03:49:23 Rev. Trudy I love this story. Tell me more. I do. I love the Gospel of Luke. This is only found in the Gospel of Luke. He has the tendency to tell long stories, right? Thank you for that long reading. It's all in there, right? He's the only one that talks about this. This is his resurrection story. 00:03:50:01 - 00:04:24:08 Rev. Trudy And I like it because as I … the more times I read it, I see the way in which it sets all of us up. All of us who came after the original disciples and Jesus's resurrection. It sets us up with, in community, in the next book, Luke Acts, right. It sets us up for what we can expect and how we can understand what has happened, all of that stuff and what kind of rituals to do. 00:04:24:10 - 00:04:48:12 Rev. Trudy I love the fact that Cleopas is not one of the 12. Right. So, he sets us up to know that there were others. There were others who … thought it was only the 12, but there are others. Right. And like, Luke throughout his scripture, I mean it's always about the journey. And this story is told on a journey. 00:04:48:14 - 00:05:03:06 Rev. Trudy Right. So, it just, it has just some synergies, some duplicate patterns that just really engage my imagination, and kind of set me on solid ground. 00:05:03:07 - 00:05:06:20 Rev. Brittany I mean, yeah, especially after the resurrection. It's kind of a… 00:05:06:22 - 00:05:07:14 Rev. Trudy Exactly. 00:05:07:14 - 00:05:10:05 Rev. Brittany I'm glad that Jesus appears again. 00:05:10:06 - 00:05:12:18 Rev. Trudy Right? Right, right, right. Yeah. 00:05:12:23 - 00:05:37:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah, I think what stuck out to me for the first time in reading this, yeah, was in verse 22, where it says, “moreover, some women of our group astounded us.” And so, to think that, of course, we've known this, right, that women have were a part of Jesus' disciples, but to hear it spoken, yeah, out of the mouths of, right. 00:05:37:12 - 00:05:42:15 Rev. Brittany These men. Right. “Some of the women of our group.” Right. Which means that they, too, were disciples. 00:05:42:20 - 00:06:06:03 Rev. Trudy That's right, that's right, that's right. And you notice, you know, that the women were there, the women told what they saw at the tomb. And these two just like, barely even got to that point. They started everywhere else, you know, and then got to that and didn't lead with that at all, which tells me they didn't believe the women at all. 00:06:06:05 - 00:06:15:00 Rev. Trudy And of course. In fact, it's the Gospel of Luke that says the disciples literally thought it was a “idle tale” right? Yeah. Oh, those women, you know what they'll do? 00:06:15:01 - 00:06:16:07 Rev. Brittany You know how that goes. 00:06:16:07 - 00:06:17:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. That's right. 00:06:17:09 - 00:06:22:12 Rev. Brittany You know how that … I mean, they, it, says they ran back to the tomb. 00:06:22:12 - 00:06:27:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And found it empty. Right. But Jesus didn't appear to him. 00:06:27:22 - 00:06:29:06 Rev. Brittany So couldn't have been real. 00:06:29:09 - 00:06:51:00 Rev. Trudy What was the proof? Right, ladies. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know what that’s like. Yeah, yeah, but this shows us the mental, thinking of these two on this road to Emmaus. They are not in a state of mind where they're looking for anything to be out of the ordinary. 00:06:51:00 - 00:06:51:05 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:06:51:07 - 00:07:20:19 Rev. Trudy They're not looking for a surprise. They're not looking for anything that the women said would be true. For Jesus to be resurrected. They're not looking for any of that right. And that's what makes them so sad. Even though what they say they'd hoped, right. They would that he would be the one to redeem Israel. And I don't know Hebrew, I don't know Aramaic, I don't know Greek, I don't know a lot of any language. Actually, barely English. 00:07:20:21 - 00:07:29:11 Rev. Trudy But the syntax of the sentence I read really makes it clear that it is. It is current. 00:07:29:13 - 00:07:32:15 Rev. Trudy They now no longer hope. 00:07:32:18 - 00:07:33:13 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Right. 00:07:33:18 - 00:07:33:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:34:00 - 00:07:42:04 Rev. Brittany It was dead. Yeah. At that point. That's right. Once that Jesus died on the cross, I think a lot of their hope died with it. 00:07:42:05 - 00:08:04:23 Rev. Trudy Absolutely right. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And the hope has appeared, you know, through many of the stories that Luke has told, starting from the very beginning when Zechariah, recognizes that, “oh, this is going to be the one that's going to herald in the Messiah.” Or Anna and Simeon when they see Jesus coming in to be dedicated. “Oh, this is the one.” 00:08:04:23 - 00:08:18:23 Rev. Trudy “This is one.” So, everybody was hoping so that that just kind of signifies to the breadth of the disappointments, and sorrow at the crucifixion. 00:08:19:01 - 00:08:44:14 Rev. Brittany What's the song? I think it's Mariah Carey from The Prince of Egypt or whatever. And there's a line in it that always resonates with me, though. “Hope is frail, it's hard to kill.” But that fragile hope, you know, is, I think, hope in general is fragile. Yeah. You know, I think we can want something and hope for something. 00:08:44:14 - 00:08:49:01 Rev. Brittany And that disappointment. Yeah. Just. 00:08:49:03 - 00:08:49:14 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:08:49:17 - 00:08:52:13 Rev. Brittany Breaks up that hope a little bit more. 00:08:52:13 - 00:09:29:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm still thinking about, you know, really what resurrection does for us. I'm thinking about, you know, what I had shared on Easter Sunday. And just how real hope is really hard. And it takes a lot of courage. And, what stuck out to me again in this story is their eyes were kept from recognizing God. And that always sounds like they didn't want to, they wanted to be, you know, it's, it sounds like against their will, their eyes were kept from recognizing Jesus. 00:09:29:22 - 00:09:57:21 Rev. Trudy And it got me to think about the ways in which they weren't expecting all of this, as we said. But whenever there's some sort of shakeup in what you expected. Right. Whenever things don't play out. Whenever there's something that causes you to be unsteady, shaken, when things shift and change. I mean, all of that kind of stuff. 00:09:57:23 - 00:10:09:11 Rev. Trudy You can't see beyond that. And you're not okay. You're not okay. 00:10:09:12 - 00:10:33:08 Rev. Trudy You're not okay. And at the same time, as I’m thinking about this story, what is that they're not seeing? It's Jesus. But they can't see because Jesus is back differently. He's not the same Jesus. They knew just something. And we don't know what that is. But something is not the same. 00:10:33:12 - 00:10:59:06 Rev. Trudy I say we don't know what that is, but we know what that is. It is the fact that he lives. That's different! Yeah. Right. And it just reminds me of the way in which any time things are changing and shifting and we're not OK, there's usually some sort of growth and understanding that occurs on the back side of that. 00:10:59:08 - 00:11:21:06 Rev. Trudy There, for these disciples, they wrestled then with what this new reality is like. Could it be real? Could it be right? I, you know, they had some time to work through not being okay and to get a different spiritual growth out of what was happening. Right. And I think that's how most of us grow in the faith. 00:11:21:06 - 00:11:45:09 Rev. Trudy We have to come to that place where we are not okay, and nothing is working anymore. Everything I thought was true is kind of all up in the air, and I'm not okay until you begin to look differently. Yeah. And see things differently. Yeah. That was a long way of saying all that. 00:11:45:11 - 00:11:46:18 Rev. Brittany It was a great way of saying it. 00:11:46:19 - 00:11:53:12 Rev. Trudy Okay. You got it okay. Yeah. If only I had like an erase key and some of my I vocal cords! 00:11:53:14 - 00:11:55:17 Rev. Brittany I think it was great. Okay. I think it was great. 00:11:55:19 - 00:11:56:14 Rev. Trudy You know what I mean. 00:11:56:14 - 00:12:19:19 Rev. Brittany I think to piggyback off of that, it's like … I think when you have an expectation that something will go a particular way, right? Or if, you know, they thought that they … I mean, the disciples really struggled with Jesus telling them that he had to die, right? And they were like, “no!” You know, Jesus told them, you're going to deny him. 00:12:19:19 - 00:12:26:21 Rev. Brittany You're like, “No, you won't.” You know, they had this, a real struggle with knowing that. 00:12:28:14 - 00:12:36:18 Rev. Brittany The way that God was going to show up new was to kill something that they loved. Yeah. Someone that they loved. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 00:12:37:12 - 00:13:03:22 Rev. Brittany Or anything. Yeah. Right. And I think, at least for me in my, like, yes, I want good things to happen in the world. But it is also terrifying to think of what you have to give up for that new thing to happen. Right? Yeah. And for the disciples, I think they struggled with this idea. 00:13:03:22 - 00:13:14:00 Rev. Brittany “But it's okay now, right? Like, we've got Jesus with us. Who's going to help us through these things?” And then to imagine him no longer being there. 00:13:14:00 - 00:13:14:08 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:13:14:13 - 00:13:33:18 Rev. Brittany Was just a different type of trauma, I think, you know. Yeah. And I almost … like preemptive grief, you know, like the denial I think was happening like, “oh, this doesn't have to happen.” And then when it did happen, now you're angry and you're sad and you don't know what to do with all of your feelings and emotions. 00:13:33:20 - 00:13:58:18 Rev. Brittany And like, you know, they kind of snapped on this man, like, “Did you not hear what has happened in the three days?!” Like they were pretty upset about that. And I've had experiences in that way, too, of being deeply disappointed by something. And then becoming angry by it or denying my real feelings about it or whatever that thing is, that cycle of grief. 00:13:58:20 - 00:14:13:19 Rev. Brittany But I think, like you said, on the back end, I mean, it's always on the back end, when I look over and think about those hard moments where I did not think I was going to make it out, you know? Yeah, I'm like, “oh, okay, I wish I could have … I mean, I wish I didn't have to go down like that.” 00:14:13:20 - 00:14:21:02 Rev. Brittany Yeah. “But if it meant that I was going to get here, experience that, or meet these people, then I wouldn't give that up,” you know. 00:14:21:02 - 00:14:36:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I wish I would have known, maybe before I went through all those emotions, that it would be okay. This might be our “I should have known” and we kind of do. Right. But we still struggle with it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:36:14 - 00:14:37:22 Rev. Brittany I mean, yeah. 00:14:38:00 - 00:15:04:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah, I do want to just clarify, and I've said this before, I don't … I think Jesus knew he was going to die because there was no other response for the Roman Empire to respond. It's not because God sent him to die. I don't believe in that. That's right. It's because he was not going to turn away from the work he had committed his life to. 00:15:04:01 - 00:15:34:21 Rev. Trudy Right, because it got a little hard, right? That was a snarky way of saying it. But he was going to take it to the death. He cared about it so much. That's just crazy. And I love in this passage where he explains all the scripture to them. And especially as it applies to his life and his death and his resurrection. 00:15:34:23 - 00:16:00:19 Rev. Trudy And, you know, you think about the chaos of creation. God brought something beautiful out of that, right? You think about the Hebrews being slaves in Egypt. And Moses brought them out. And it was hard. But they came to the Promised Land. They became a people. They became God's people in a different way than they've ever been. 00:16:00:21 - 00:16:23:22 Rev. Trudy You think about the way in which they were exiled in Babylon. And they had to live in that. And they came out of that with new and creative ways of thinking about their relationship to God and to the world. And here's Jesus, trying to be in the Roman Empire and still be people of faith for the most important pieces of what the faith means. 00:16:24:00 - 00:16:38:06 Rev. Trudy None of that God caused, right? The chaos, the slavery, the exile, the crucifixion, none of that God caused. But that's how God works. 00:16:38:08 - 00:16:39:00 Rev. Trudy That's how God works. 00:16:39:00 - 00:16:58:23 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I used to, you know, the saying, “everything happens for a reason.” Ehhh, yeah. Yes. I always try to think of it as yes, everything happens for a reason, but that you find meaning behind it obviously. 00:16:59:08 - 00:17:14:09 Rev. Brittany You know. So, sometimes it can just sound a little trite, like, “oh, everything happens for a reason!” Yeah, but I think in everything that happens, we can find meaning behind it which is more significant to me than the thing that has happened. Right, right. 00:17:14:09 - 00:17:15:21 Rev. Trudy Right, right. 00:17:15:23 - 00:17:21:18 Rev. Brittany I think that theology can be kind of harmful for people who have experienced great loss and tragedy. 00:17:21:18 - 00:17:22:09 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:17:22:09 - 00:17:41:16 Rev. Brittany But I also think that as they look back on who they have grown into or what they have been shown or the ways in which their eyes were opened, yeah, the things that they weren't necessarily attuned to before that there is meaning behind it. Yeah. And it isn't this orchestration by God that happened. 00:17:41:16 - 00:18:07:17 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. It's—that's right. You're speaking of meaning, I think I think all of that. We have a really hard time with … we've been sold kind of this story that, you know, if you believe in the right things, you're going to be greatness, going to be fine. You know? And that's not really the way it works. 00:18:07:19 - 00:18:38:17 Rev. Trudy It's not really what we were promised. And it, even the resurrection, you know, there's a lot of Christian, organizations that don't really do much with the Holy Week. It's all about the resurrection. And through much of our history, the resurrection has meant that we get eternal life. And. Right, like you just crossed your eyes, right? 00:18:38:17 - 00:19:07:12 Rev. Trudy We get eternal life. And it makes me think, as I was thinking about this conversation and not being okay, it brought to mind a funeral I was officiating for a young teen in Cheyenne, Wyoming, who committed suicide. And the family had felt like—and this had been one of couple of suicides in the community— 00:19:07:14 - 00:19:47:03 Rev. Trudy and the family had thought that there must have been a suicide pact. For whatever reason. And was really adamant that I could say something that would protect other young kids who might have been in this kind of pact, to keep them from thinking it's OK to commit suicide. All of that is to say, I mean, if you are in a position where you are not okay, and suicide feels like a really good option, especially when you dangle eternal life and all bliss and glory … Ouch! Right? 00:19:47:07 - 00:20:06:18 Rev. Trudy Wow. And I don't know how the church has reconciled that, other than the Catholic Church saying, “Yeah, but suicide is a sin.” You know. I don't know how to hold those two intentions, but it just, it just makes me sad knowing that it's there. 00:20:06:18 - 00:20:16:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. And I mean the desperation of not being okay in a society that tells you have to be. Yeah. You know. 00:20:16:01 - 00:20:16:12 Rev. Trudy Oh yeah. 00:20:16:12 - 00:20:46:16 Rev. Brittany We live in a time where it's not okay. You know, they have cut a lot of mental health resources and people who don't have, you know, the financial resources to seek mental health care are left to their own devices, you know, and trying to find meaning out of these, you know, the experiences of their life. And so, the desperation comes, you know. And I feel that in our society, we do a lot of masking. 00:20:46:18 - 00:21:10:02 Rev. Brittany There's a lot of, “I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.” When really on the inside, you're grieving. Your heart's broken. You're angry. You're frustrated. You're sad. You're scared. You're lonely. You know all of those. You're confused. All of those emotions are there. But we have been conditioned, not only as an American culture but often our Christian culture. 00:21:10:03 - 00:21:10:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:11:00 - 00:21:24:05 Rev. Brittany You know, Christianity tells us that it's all going to be okay in the end. But it's like, “But what about right now? And I can't keep up this charade that I'm okay when I'm not.” 00:21:24:05 - 00:21:49:14 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. That's why I like this story. Yeah. I mean, you know, they start at the, you know, when the stranger, Jesus, asks “What's going on?” They start at, not at the empty tomb, they start early. And it's all the trauma of having lost this man that they loved and they had such hope. 00:21:49:14 - 00:22:12:07 Rev. Trudy And it's all of that that comes first. And the possibility of anything else is just not there. Even though, you know, the women and Peter had gone to the tomb and saw it empty. Even though there had been other disciples who had seen evidence to the contrary, they still weren't there. 00:22:12:07 - 00:22:12:22 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:22:13:00 - 00:22:46:12 Rev. Trudy And I think that gives us this space, not just in regular, ordinary life. When we aren't okay, it gives us the space to be not okay even in our faith. And we will work something out. God will be there to help us work something out. But it won't be easy and it won't be instantaneous. And especially when it comes to what it is that you believe about the resurrection, we don't have to get it right now. We don't have to know it right now. 00:22:46:12 - 00:22:46:18 Rev. Brittany Right? 00:22:46:22 - 00:22:54:04 Rev. Trudy We don't have to understand it. We can still work through whatever that might end up looking like for us, right? 00:22:54:07 - 00:23:17:18 Rev. Brittany Right. Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciate this text because it gives us permission to express our feelings. I like that they were walking and talking about this, you know. Like, I couldn't imagine experiencing such trauma and not outwardly processing with someone like, “Yeah, can you believe what we just experienced? I can't believe he's gone.” I can't do that at all. 00:23:17:18 - 00:23:25:21 Rev. Brittany Like, to acknowledge it really and truly. Yeah. And I really appreciate the fact that in verse 17 they stood still. 00:23:25:22 - 00:23:26:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:26:08 - 00:23:27:06 Rev. Brittany Looking sad. 00:23:27:06 - 00:23:27:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:27:14 - 00:23:48:12 Rev. Brittany Because sometimes you have to just stand in your sadness. Yeah. Sometimes you have to stand in your grief, and you have to stand in your disappointment, and really sit with it. Right? And not try to make yourself feel better or, you know, give a platitude or a pleasantry. You know, you were so quick to do that, but to really sit. 00:23:48:12 - 00:23:53:10 Rev. Brittany In the depth of the pain, I think, again, is how our eyes are open. 00:23:53:10 - 00:23:54:00 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:23:54:00 - 00:24:05:12 Rev. Brittany To the new hope and possibility that comes. Yeah, but if we're so quick to get there at this accelerated rate, then we miss out on the opportunity to feel the depths. 00:24:05:12 - 00:24:05:22 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:24:05:23 - 00:24:08:03 Rev. Brittany Of what it is that we're carrying. 00:24:08:03 - 00:24:31:18 Rev. Trudy And to sit with someone is powerful. And I remember my sister died and she did not want to have a service. And I missed the opportunity to be surrounded by people who also knew her and missed her. Right, right. There's something you need. You need that community. You need that space. You need that honesty and that vulnerability. 00:24:31:20 - 00:24:37:23 Rev. Trudy And only when you settle into that can you really begin to see, “Oh! God is here.” 00:24:38:01 - 00:24:38:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:24:38:18 - 00:24:58:07 Rev. Brittany And I think that when you don't. Right. Yeah. It comes out in other ways. Right. When you don't sit with your grief, you don't sit with your sadness, you don't sit with your disappointment. It comes out in ways that you're not expecting. Right. It can, you know, someone can say something to you in the grocery store and you're ready to bite their head off. 00:24:58:07 - 00:25:09:20 Rev. Brittany And they have no idea, right, that you're dealing with the … your dog just died. You know what I mean? It's like, if you don't sit with your grief, your grief will sit you down. 00:25:09:22 - 00:25:12:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah, it will sit you down. 00:25:12:03 - 00:25:39:14 Rev. Brittany So, either you sit it, you sit down with your grief, or your grief is going to sit you down. And you start to do things that you, you know, overdrinking or overeating or, you know, whatever the too much of anything that we do. “Too much of” can become a problem when we're trying to make ourselves feel better rather than just accepting the fact that, like, “I'm hurt right now.” You know. Like: “I'm upset. I'm not in a good place.” 00:25:39:14 - 00:25:41:19 Rev. Brittany Yeah, I need to honor that within myself. 00:25:41:21 - 00:26:03:19 Rev. Trudy That's right. Yeah. That's right. And even just sometimes naming it. So, you know, even in Jesus' question, you know, “What are you talking about?” Right where this happened. You know what a what a gracious question. Right, right, right. Because you have to be able to recognize it, and to name it for what it actually is. 00:26:03:19 - 00:26:07:21 Rev. Trudy Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a good story. 00:26:07:22 - 00:26:10:06 Rev. Brittany It is a good story. Preaching on it? 00:26:10:08 - 00:26:14:13 Rev. Trudy That would be you this week. Can't wait, can't wait, can we? Good. 00:26:14:15 - 00:26:15:00 Rev. Brittany Thanks. 00:26:15:05 - 00:26:43:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Thanks for talking with me. Always great. Always so wonderful. Thanks for listening to us. Hope you found something to make you think. Something to maybe give you hope. And if you have people to talk to, we are thrilled about that. We love to have you share what's going on in our conversations, in your journey of faith, and the way in which we understand the Bible. 00:26:43:03 - 00:27:07:19 Rev. Trudy So, we have some questions for you to think about as you offer it to those you might be in conversation with. There are three of them. The first one: What are you carrying right now that you've been trying to hold together on your own? The second one: Describe a time when you were not okay that turned out to be a time of growth. 00:27:07:21 - 00:27:36:15 Rev. Trudy And number three: When have you felt like God was absent or hard to recognize? Yeah. Good questions. If you’re wanting some company to talk about these outside of your normal circles, we invite you to go to Patreon.com/fumcsd. Become a member and have some conversation there. We always want to know what you're thinking, so, feel free to send us an email. 00:27:36:15 - 00:28:02:10 Rev. Trudy Let us know. Answer on Patreon however you want. We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time. Bye. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.