00:00:01:03 - 00:00:30:21 Rev. Trudy Do you ever feel powerless? Imagine how Jesus felt when facing the cross. But maybe, just maybe, we are imagining it all wrong. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. 00:00:30:22 - 00:00:57:05 Rev. Trudy We are here for another Perspectives. Thank you so much for joining us. But before we get into that, I want to just tease you a little bit about something new we have put together, hopefully for your enjoyment. So, stay tuned. Keep listening. We'll tell you all about it at the end. So, Hannah, you ready to have this conversation? 00:00:57:06 - 00:00:57:17 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:00:57:20 - 00:01:08:09 Rev. Trudy We are in this series of The People of the Passion, the people who inhabit the stories we tell about Jesus heading to the cross. Today we're talking about the powerful. We're talking about Pilate. 00:01:08:11 - 00:01:41:01 Rev. Trudy And maybe others. But it's all about power today. So, we are looking at Matthew chapter 27, verses 11 through 24. And this is out of the Common English Bible translation. So here is what this says: “Jesus was brought before the governor. The governor said, ‘Are you the King of the Jews?’ And Jesus replied, ‘That's what you say.’ But he didn't answer when the chief priests and elders accused him. 00:01:41:03 - 00:02:06:21 Rev. Trudy Then Pilate said, ‘Don't you hear the testimony they bring against you?’ But Jesus didn't answer, not even a single word. So the governor was greatly amazed. Now it was customary during the festival of the governor to release the”—Let me say that one more time—"It was customary during the festival for the governor to release to the crowd one prisoner, whomever they might choose. 00:02:06:23 - 00:02:32:01 Rev. Trudy At that time, there was a well-known prisoner named Jesus Barabbas. And when the crowd had come together, Pilate asked them, ‘Whom would you like me to release to you, Jesus, Barabbas, or Jesus, who is called the Christ?’ He knew what the leaders of the people had handed him over because of jealousy. While he was serving as judge, his wife sent this message to him. 00:02:32:03 - 00:02:54:18 Rev. Trudy ‘Leave that righteous man alone. I've suffered much today in a dream because of him.’ But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas and killed Jesus. And so the governor said. ‘Which of the two do you want me to release to you?’ ‘Barabbas!’ They replied, and Pilate said, ‘Then what should I do with this Jesus, who is called the Christ?’ 00:02:54:18 - 00:03:21:21 Rev. Trudy And they all said, ‘Crucify him.’ But Pilate said, ‘Why? What wrong has he done?’ And they shouted even louder, ‘Crucify him!’ Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere and that a riot was starting. So he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. ‘I am innocent of this man's blood,’ he said. ‘It's your problem.’” It's a different kind of translation. 00:03:21:23 - 00:03:32:22 Rev. Trudy The common English Bible. I really like it because it does try to put things in common English, but it's … for those of us who've been reading other versions for a long time, it doesn't roll off the tongue like we think it should. 00:03:33:00 - 00:03:41:13 Rev. Hannah But it helps us understand the context and the absolute nuances. Yeah. Yeah. Rather than the familiar religious scripture text? 00:03:41:13 - 00:03:49:13 Rev. Trudy Right. Exactly. It does. It shifts things up a little bit. So, what stands out for you in this passage? 00:03:49:15 - 00:04:02:01 Rev. Hannah So, as you read this scripture, I heard voices from people or individuals who hold different degrees of power. 00:04:02:03 - 00:04:02:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:04:02:21 - 00:04:07:18 Rev. Hannah Yeah. It's always conversation and dynamics between different powers. 00:04:07:20 - 00:04:34:10 Rev. Trudy It is so complicated, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. The Gospels are pretty clear that Jesus had trouble with the religious authorities, the scribes. And it's hard to know when that line is crossed because, you know, in the Jewish tradition, that argument, seeing argumentation around scriptures, was part of the practice of knowing the scriptures. And so that was not unusual. 00:04:34:12 - 00:04:43:02 Rev. Trudy But it is hard to know exactly what and how and when what was ordinary became something threatening. 00:04:43:04 - 00:04:47:12 Rev. Trudy And Jesus's voice. Yes. For those who would call it threat. 00:04:47:13 - 00:05:07:23 Rev. Hannah Yes. Right. And along in that line, I see an intersection of Jesus being a threat to the religious community. And part of Jesus being a threat to the political. Regime. Right. Right. So, and then these two powers are holding hands. 00:05:08:01 - 00:05:19:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Well. Oh, okay. So, I'm going to, I'm just going to clarify because you said a threat to the religious community, but it's more the institution. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:05:19:22 - 00:05:21:20 Rev. Hannah Institutionalized religion. 00:05:22:01 - 00:05:48:00 Rev. Trudy Exactly. So, yes. That's the issue, isn't it? We've got Caiaphas, who is the high priest that appears in this story, especially in advance, when they're planning to crucify Jesus and catch him in the lie and really convict him. Right. And he has come forward now to present his case to Pilate. 00:05:48:02 - 00:05:57:13 Rev. Trudy There it is. The blending, the enmeshed, or whatever it is between the religious institution and the political power. 00:05:57:15 - 00:05:59:09 Speaker 3 Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:59:11 - 00:06:12:20 Rev. Hannah And so, it was interesting to hear how you read it and the religious, the institutionalized religion, or religious institution was getting emotionally charged up. 00:06:12:21 - 00:06:15:07 Speaker 3 Oh yeah. 00:06:15:09 - 00:06:31:04 Rev. Hannah Ready to kill them if they had the power. But they could murder someone. So, they brought Jesus right to the political power. That's right. And the political power of Pilate was not emotionally engaged with this person. Yeah. 00:06:31:04 - 00:06:31:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:06:31:21 - 00:06:34:22 Rev. Hannah Yeah, it was a, yeah. Contrast in your reading. 00:06:35:01 - 00:06:53:00 Rev. Trudy That's for sure. That's for sure. But Caiaphas had a lot at stake. There was a lot. I chuckled when you said emotionally invested. Right. Why did you? Well, because I've never met anybody who goes to church that is not emotionally invested in in something or another, right? 00:06:53:01 - 00:07:00:11 Rev. Hannah We are full of crap. Well. Emotionally invested. I'm sorry. 00:07:00:12 - 00:07:35:01 Rev. Trudy But, you know, I mean, and I can understand it. It's such a personal relationship to what's happening. Right. And they've given their life for this. And then this upstart comes around and wants to change everything. Right. So yes, they were very much emotionally charged with this. And Pilate. Not so much. And you're right, Caiaphas or anybody within Judaism had no right to put anybody to death, not even within their own structure. 00:07:35:03 - 00:07:39:16 Rev. Trudy That is not what happens. In religious institutions. 00:07:39:16 - 00:07:41:13 Rev. Hannah So, they leaned on the political. 00:07:41:14 - 00:08:04:00 Rev. Trudy So, they said “Hey, I'll scratch your back and you scratch yours.” Yeah. So, Caiaphas kind of coming back to the theme that we're talking about, which is “The Powerful” in the Passion story. Caiaphas has his own amount of power in this. And so does Pilate. 00:08:04:01 - 00:08:05:13 Speaker 3 Right. Yeah. 00:08:05:15 - 00:08:09:03 Rev. Hannah And they both speak their power. 00:08:09:05 - 00:08:10:05 Rev. Trudy In different ways. 00:08:10:06 - 00:08:18:06 Rev. Hannah In different ways. Yeah. But there's a third person with power. Yes. Who expresses his power in a different way. 00:08:18:07 - 00:08:37:21 Rev. Trudy Oh, let's hold on to – we’ll get there. Okay. I want to … so, Caiaphas, it's really interesting the way there's a little bit of collusion. There's not quite the … it's manipulation, really. Right. Pilate, I think, has a different kind of power. Do you have thoughts on Pilate’s power? 00:08:38:01 - 00:08:41:07 Rev. Hannah Pilate’s power. It's a little more refined. 00:08:41:09 - 00:08:42:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:08:42:22 - 00:08:44:10 Rev. Hannah His power has real power to it. 00:08:44:10 - 00:08:51:20 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. A little bit more. Oh, that's an interesting thought. Yeah. Pilate has more authority. Yeah. Granted to him in this realm. 00:08:51:21 - 00:09:18:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. And his power was to maintain order in this region. And he has loyalty to Rome. And he's fearing uprising from whoever his power is given for. And he's right there and posing himself in a political realist position, in a very refined way. 00:09:18:20 - 00:09:40:17 Rev. Trudy Yes, and you know, there's some attraction to that kind of power. Right. To the power that's calm collected. That's logical. Or so it seems. Right. I don't know ... and then, I didn't go down this rabbit hole, but I don't know if it really was part of the Roman Empires practice to let anybody go, you know, especially at the behest of a crowd. 00:09:40:18 - 00:10:00:03 Rev. Trudy I don't know. But you know it. The story is told such that Pilate has this control over the whole situation. There's a process for this. It's okay. Let's just walk through this. I'm going to, you know, be very calm and confident and in charge. 00:10:00:03 - 00:10:04:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:10:04:12 - 00:10:05:14 Rev. Trudy Until he's not. 00:10:05:16 - 00:10:08:14 Rev. Hannah Until he's not. Until he's not. 00:10:08:16 - 00:10:19:07 Rev. Trudy And well, you know, he turns then to the crowd to say, “You know, what do you want?” And then they all shout. 00:10:19:09 - 00:10:22:00 Rev. Trudy And then he washes his hands. 00:10:22:01 - 00:10:24:15 Rev. Hannah So, he doesn't want to be responsible. 00:10:24:15 - 00:10:25:07 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:10:25:08 - 00:10:34:13 Rev. Hannah For the decision that’s not directly impacting his region. 00:10:34:15 - 00:10:51:06 Rev. Hannah He doesn't want to get his hands dirty or get involved or invested in anything that's not directly involved with his rules. Right. And he's avoiding any messiness. Yeah. 00:10:51:07 - 00:11:16:07 Rev. Trudy You know, I remember a play that I had seen, and I honestly can't even remember the title of it, I apologize. But it was about the Holocaust. And essentially the thing that I took home from that play was just the way Hitler and his crew, got away with killing so many people. 00:11:16:09 - 00:11:36:07 Rev. Trudy They had this structure that gave everybody just a little bit of things to keep the machine moving. Right. You just have to do this. You just have to send this email. You just have to answer this phone call. You just have to write this name down. You just have to, right? 00:11:36:12 - 00:12:02:11 Rev. Trudy Bring the prisoners from one place to another, whatever it was. And in some cases that kept them from seeing the whole or not having to look at it. But it feels like Pilate is a little bit like this. Yes. Where he's just saying, you know, okay. “I'm just trying to follow the rules.” Knowing, I'm sure he knew the rules were not going to benefit the people who could use the help. 00:12:02:13 - 00:12:20:18 Rev. Trudy But “I'm just going to do this, and then you know, I'm passing it off to this crowd who can choose whatever they want.” So, it's that kind of defensiveness that's kind of dodging responsibility that I saw in this, that same as what I saw in that play. 00:12:20:20 - 00:12:22:14 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:12:22:16 - 00:12:33:16 Rev. Hannah He’s avoiding his responsibilities and any blames targeted towards him. 00:12:33:18 - 00:12:35:04 Rev. Hannah Have nothing to do with it. 00:12:35:06 - 00:12:45:02 Rev. Trudy And here's the interesting thing I just thought of — how many times we read this and all of a sudden you get this new idea? It's not Caiaphas’ fault anymore. 00:12:45:04 - 00:12:47:06 Rev. Trudy It's not Pilate's fault. 00:12:47:21 - 00:13:08:04 Rev. Trudy It's the crowd. Which is a kind of a way of saying, “Well everybody doesn't like it.” Right. We hear that in the church, but everybody is complaining about what you just did. Everybody. Right. I mean it feels like that. Right. Oh my gosh. How this 2000+ year old story can just feel so real. 00:13:08:05 - 00:13:19:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. But also, we see a little calculated gesture in that one. Yeah. He had the power, but he gave the crowd the option to voice themselves. 00:13:19:05 - 00:13:19:17 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:13:19:17 - 00:13:29:00 Rev. Hannah And he used their voice to use his power to persecute different man. And it was a marriage between those two. 00:13:29:01 - 00:13:33:00 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:33:01 - 00:13:37:23 Rev. Hannah Now the crowd has the liability. 00:13:38:01 - 00:13:39:00 Rev. Hannah Sad. Guilty. 00:13:39:06 - 00:13:40:19 Rev. Trudy But do they think they do? 00:13:40:21 - 00:13:42:23 Rev. Hannah No. They just because they voiced it. 00:13:42:23 - 00:13:55:12 Rev. Trudy Because they don’t have the power to crucify anybody. Right. Oh, isn't, can’t you see the way, it's just the responsibility is just shifting all over the place. And in the middle of this we have this innocent man. 00:13:55:14 - 00:13:55:22 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:13:56:03 - 00:14:00:03 Rev. Trudy Going to be hung on the tree. Yes. Yeah. And killed, 00:14:00:09 - 00:14:05:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. And who is using a different kind of power in a different way. 00:14:05:16 - 00:14:19:09 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. That's right. And it makes me wonder how many times we are part of that crowd. I mean the whole scenario is pretty uncomfortable. 00:14:19:11 - 00:14:43:01 Rev. Trudy Right. If anybody's “watching the news” of ancient Palestine during that time. Right. To just watch what Caiaphas, how he's been portrayed in the gospel or on the evening news. Right. Or “what has he done now?” Or “that's what he's doing now, good!” Either way. And then you see Pilate in the spectacle. 00:14:43:03 - 00:15:02:04 Rev. Trudy And we as the crowd, we don't feel like we have any power at all over either the religious institution or the political power that's there. We just feel like, you know. “Well, I don't know. We don't know what's going on. We don't have any power.” But the story suggests that we do maybe. 00:15:02:06 - 00:15:06:00 Rev. Hannah We have the power to let this happen. 00:15:06:02 - 00:15:09:06 Rev. Hannah And to be used. 00:15:09:07 - 00:15:14:17 Rev. Trudy And to be used. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:14:19 - 00:15:40:18 Rev. Trudy There's a lot here. So, the Gospel of Matthew. You know, as we know, the gospels are all different and there's some similarities. And of course, all of the gospels talk about this Passion in different ways, of course. But some of the things that are distinct to the Gospel of Matthew, is this highlighting of Jesus' innocence, right, where Pilate's wife calls. 00:15:40:19 - 00:15:42:12 Rev. Trudy And said, “I had this dream.” 00:15:42:14 - 00:15:42:23 Speaker 3 Right. 00:15:43:04 - 00:16:09:09 Rev. Trudy That emphasizes his innocence and the deceit of the accusers, the Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin or any of those, they come up more and more in the story of the Passion. Maybe not in this reading, but that leading up to this. And it's clear they're seeking death, and they intend to use the political power, and they intend to influence the crowd. 00:16:09:11 - 00:16:14:04 Rev. Trudy All of this really sets Jesus up as the innocent Lamb of God. 00:16:14:06 - 00:16:40:00 Rev. Trudy There you go. That's right, that's right. And it talks about the fulfillment of Scripture. It's the this is, according to plan, almost, he's praying in the garden. And he yields up his spirit on the cross. And in the prayer, it's, you know, “I'm going to I'm just going to trust God.” You know, and that's how Jesus is depicted. 00:16:40:02 - 00:16:53:19 Rev. Trudy And one commentary I've read suggests that all of that, in terms of Matthew's perspective, is that his crucifixion had to happen. 00:16:53:21 - 00:17:02:16 Rev. Trudy Because it had to do with his ministry and the way in which his work, his mission was salvific, was saving. 00:17:02:18 - 00:17:09:16 Rev. Trudy And he then connects that to the forgiveness of sins. 00:17:09:18 - 00:17:19:18 Rev. Trudy First of all: The forgiveness of sins, how do you feel about that being kind of the summation of all that Jesus was to do? 00:17:19:20 - 00:17:51:10 Rev. Hannah Well, speaking, you know, coming from the Jewish tradition, Matthew himself also speaking to the Jewish community. He had to connect the sacrificial aspect of Lamb of God with Jesus. So that they shift from their tradition right through his sacrificial acts. Right. That's right. And it has to be the blood that's magical in the equation. 00:17:51:11 - 00:17:57:20 Rev. Trudy So, you're saying that the forgiveness of sins was inherent in the ritual of a sacrifice in the Jewish tradition? 00:17:57:21 - 00:17:58:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:17:58:04 - 00:18:23:01 Rev. Trudy In antiquity. Yeah. Yes. And then, and so, it's, yeah, yeah. The Gospel of Matthew talks about Jesus forgiving the sins from the cross. And then he assures the forgiveness of sins. So, forgiveness seems like a pretty good, at least large, focus of Jesus' ministry. 00:18:23:03 - 00:18:35:13 Rev. Trudy And I think it's also really important to understand what's happening here on the cross. 00:18:35:15 - 00:18:53:20 Rev. Trudy Let me back into that. Hold that thought out there. I had and another commentary I had read asked two questions and said there's a difference between them. The conclusion he made wasn't exactly the conclusion I made. But I'm going to tell you what I think. 00:18:53:22 - 00:18:54:05 Rev. Hannah Right. 00:18:54:06 - 00:19:02:15 Rev. Trudy But the two questions are, was that this story leaves us with is number one: Why was Jesus killed? 00:19:02:17 - 00:19:06:10 Rev. Trudy And number two: Why did Jesus die? 00:19:06:12 - 00:19:13:13 Rev. Trudy And they're different. The former why was Jesus killed. 00:19:13:15 - 00:19:31:01 Rev. Trudy It's kind of asking a logistical question. Right. How did this happen? Who did he piss off? You know, and the answer to that question—Why was Jesus killed?—the answer is it was a political assassination. 00:19:31:03 - 00:19:46:17 Rev. Trudy Right. Yes. Fed by the religious institution. But when you ask why did Jesus die? That puts the question that we pose, is that we're wondering about Jesus' agency in this. 00:19:46:19 - 00:19:59:06 Rev. Trudy Why did he die? Yeah. Right. And so, if we ask that question, we see the movement of Jesus towards the cross and then on the cross and through the cross. 00:19:59:08 - 00:20:01:18 Rev. Trudy It's a very intentional action. 00:20:01:20 - 00:20:02:17 Speaker 3 Right. 00:20:02:19 - 00:20:17:19 Rev. Trudy Right. So, and that's nothing new there. Nothing new there. We know both those things, right. But when you, when you put it in the context of the way we … and you were going to say something. Please, you go. 00:20:17:21 - 00:20:19:04 Rev. Hannah No, please give me a chance to think about. Let me hear you first. 00:20:19:04 - 00:20:48:07 Rev. Trudy Oh, but I think … when I think about the difficulty of having this religious institution that has the power to collude and this political power that has the authority to make it happen. And you hear the crowd that's being manipulated and all of this stuff, and you see this mess of a system that is killing innocent people. 00:20:48:09 - 00:20:52:15 Rev. Trudy I just … and Jesus is walking straight to it. 00:20:52:17 - 00:21:04:18 Rev. Trudy But he's walking straight to it in a very different way than any of these people or characters in the story are walking or participating in that scenario. 00:21:04:19 - 00:21:28:16 Rev. Trudy The crowd, Caiaphas, and Pilate, they come to that mess with the intent to show their power and to make sure they win, and to collude where partnership is right, to manipulate the stupid masses, you know, or whatever. And Jesus walks into it. Without any of that agenda. 00:21:28:18 - 00:21:32:21 Rev. Trudy But rather to expose what's going on. 00:21:32:23 - 00:21:39:11 Rev. Trudy Through his power. Yes. Which is truth telling. 00:21:39:13 - 00:21:41:07 Rev. Hannah And forgiveness. Yes. 00:21:41:08 - 00:21:43:02 Rev. Trudy And love and grace. 00:21:43:04 - 00:21:58:06 Rev. Hannah Yes. And I wondered as I listened to you, I wondered if Jesus’ calling was not only to die on the cross, but truth telling throughout his life, which will lead him to death. 00:21:58:07 - 00:21:59:09 Rev. Trudy That's it. 00:21:59:11 - 00:22:27:04 Rev. Hannah That's it. And lead him to death? Yes. And the difference between the forgiveness. Forgiveness of sins that he talked about in his lifetime. Teaching and the forgiveness of sins associated with the sacrificial lamb, is that he talked about forgiveness of sins before offering any sacrificial lamb before he died. That was graceful forgiveness given to everyone. It's an opportunity. 00:22:27:05 - 00:22:39:02 Rev. Hannah Yeah. But, yeah, somehow this Jewish tradition and Jesus radical truth telling were fused together. Yeah. In this event. 00:22:39:02 - 00:22:40:06 Rev. Trudy That's right, that's right. 00:22:41:12 - 00:22:52:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And I honestly don't think that Jesus had to die on the cross. Because God wanted it that way. 00:22:52:23 - 00:22:59:05 Rev. Hannah If he had some agency he could have softened down and watered down his radical message. 00:22:59:06 - 00:23:25:18 Rev. Trudy That's exactly what I'm talking about. That's the power Jesus wielded. Is to not be like everybody else in that mess. Not collude. Not use power inappropriately. Not to just do the easy thing and what everybody else is doing. He uses his power to say “I'm going to be different.” Yes. In that mess. 00:23:25:19 - 00:23:33:13 Rev. Hannah And he lived his entire life. “I am different from this mess.” Yeah. And talking about, “You have heard it said.” 00:23:33:14 - 00:23:34:00 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:23:34:03 - 00:24:02:03 Rev. Hannah I tell you. So, it was all about new truths that he believed that came from God. Yeah. And then by the time he came to this place of full of power, of the power of the mass, power of the political power, power of the religious institution, he used his power. He carried he expressed his power differently by being not so wordy. 00:24:02:08 - 00:24:04:23 Rev. Hannah In that moment, He didn't talk much. Right? 00:24:05:01 - 00:24:05:13 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:24:05:13 - 00:24:14:06 Rev. Hannah So, “I have no regret over what I have taught. What I have done. And this is how I am going to face my real integrity here.” 00:24:14:07 - 00:24:28:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. And even in those instances where he was doing the ministry that led up to this, he was offering the crowds, the chief priests, the political people. 00:24:28:11 - 00:24:30:23 Rev. Trudy How he was offering that forgiveness. 00:24:31:03 - 00:24:31:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:24:31:16 - 00:24:49:20 Rev. Trudy Right. He was offering that forgiveness. Yes. So, I think you're right when you say, all of that led to his death. It wasn't any divine plan. Jesus did not need to die to correct the sins of the world. Jesus died because of the sins of the world. 00:24:49:21 - 00:24:56:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. The divine plan, though involved in this, was that he speaks the truth. 00:24:56:13 - 00:25:11:19 Rev. Trudy That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's right. And Jesus, you know, imagine what it would have been like had Jesus fought back. 00:25:11:21 - 00:25:22:14 Rev. Hannah I don't see that kind of aspect in Jesus fighting back. That's right. Last minute for self-preservation. He wasn't ever about self-preservation. 00:25:22:15 - 00:25:32:04 Rev. Trudy Okay, let me put it this way: What happens when we fight back in those scenarios? And I have an answer if you don't want to answer this. 00:25:32:06 - 00:25:33:12 Rev. Hannah I don't want to. Why don’t you go ahead? 00:25:33:12 - 00:25:38:07 Rev. Trudy I know you’re like, “Tell me what I want to hear.” 00:25:38:09 - 00:25:39:07 Rev. Hannah Answer this. 00:25:39:07 - 00:25:46:16 Rev. Trudy If Jesus were to fight back and that mess, they would have been justified for killing him. 00:25:46:18 - 00:25:48:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:25:48:15 - 00:25:51:14 Rev. Trudy And what does that change? 00:25:51:16 - 00:25:54:06 Speaker 3 Nothing. Nothing. 00:25:54:08 - 00:26:07:03 Rev. Hannah He chose not to entangle himself with that messiness of the power struggles. That's right. And his silence somehow unsettled the power. 00:26:07:05 - 00:26:07:22 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:26:07:22 - 00:26:16:14 Rev. Hannah Because he wasn't controlled by them. His life was wholly under self-self-control. That's right. Listening to the higher power. 00:26:16:14 - 00:26:32:14 Rev. Trudy That's right. He had that faith, that trust, that understanding of God and what God wills for the kingdom of God and was not going to not going to back away from that at all, ever. 00:26:32:16 - 00:26:43:14 Rev. Hannah The best part in this, now that I listen to you, is that he didn't have to be the major power in that new kingdom God wanted to have. 00:26:43:15 - 00:26:49:18 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. Because he invited all of us into it as well. Right. Yeah. 00:26:49:20 - 00:27:01:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. So, this story is full of power everywhere. But there's only one power that really accomplishes what God is wanting to accomplish with all of us. 00:27:02:00 - 00:27:06:21 Rev. Trudy That is really effective in the way in which God would save us all. 00:27:06:23 - 00:27:08:01 Speaker 3 Right. 00:27:08:03 - 00:27:10:21 Rev. Hannah Good stuff, good stuff, good stuff. 00:27:10:21 - 00:27:12:21 Rev. Trudy Hannah Ka, thank you for talking with me. 00:27:13:00 - 00:27:22:09 Rev. Hannah Thank you for inviting me to talk with you and reason with you. And so, are you ready to juice? 00:27:22:10 - 00:27:29:05 Rev. Trudy I think I've given you it all. I don't think there's a single thing other than, you know, I could talk forever, but I won't. 00:27:29:08 - 00:28:02:17 Rev. Hannah Yeah. But I hope we inspire the listeners to talk about their perspectives on this familiar text. And as you read the text again, and watch this or listen to this, and have a conversation with whoever is around you to be, or a theological or spiritual conversation partner. I invite you to consider these questions: How do you use your power? 00:28:02:19 - 00:28:16:20 Rev. Hannah What perspective prohibits your ability to use your power? And: What would God's perspective suggest you do with your power? 00:28:16:22 - 00:28:23:07 Rev. Hannah And these are the questions. And you promised something earlier. 00:28:23:12 - 00:28:48:07 Rev. Trudy I did. Yes. We are thrilled to invite you to engage with some special podcasts that I've kind of forced my colleagues to do. I'm putting together two of my favorite things to do in the whole wide world. One is to watch movies, films. And the second is to talk about theology with my brilliant, associate pastors. 00:28:48:07 - 00:29:25:23 Rev. Trudy And so, we have created, for a short time only, new podcasts in this vein. We're calling it Reel Theology. And of course, we're spelling Reel R-E-E-L. As in film reels and movies, right? In time for the Academy Awards. And so, I hope you will look for one four or all of four of very special podcasts about the theology we see in some of the movies you may be watching and the movies that are certainly nominated for the Academy Awards. 00:29:26:00 - 00:29:36:00 Rev. Trudy Right? Yeah. There you go. I hope you will find this. It's been so much fun talking. Thank you for listening. And let us know you're out there. It helps. 00:29:36:02 - 00:29:37:23 Rev. Trudy Bye. 00:29:38:00 - 00:29:53:21 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries, and to access additional learning resources. Visit fumcsd.org