00:00:00:05 - 00:00:26:11 Rev. Trudy What are the 8 most scandalous words in the Bible? Stay tuned for our Perspectives. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. 00:00:26:13 - 00:01:06:09 Rev. Trudy We have some thoughts about the scandal we are seeing in the first chapter of the Gospel of John. We are continuing our exploration of this chapter with this theory or this series that we're calling The Unexpected Divine. And today we are looking at the unexpected divine in the spaces between. And the scripture is John 1:14. Just one, but it has those 8 words that get everybody tied up in knot. If you challenge them. We might be challenging them. 00:01:06:09 - 00:01:37:10 Rev. Trudy Yes, we'll see. John 1:14: “And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen his glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth.” Yeah. It's those first 8 words, I think, that has really caused an uproar over time. Yes. Right. Tell us a little bit about what you know. 00:01:37:11 - 00:01:44:12 Rev. Trudy I know you know a lot about the original language this would have been offered in. What insights do you have? 00:01:44:13 - 00:02:11:18 Rev. Hannah So, these are the 8 simple words. There are not any sophisticated words. Simple words used. And John, this guy knew the Hebrew Scriptures so well. So, he began this gospel saying “in the beginning.” Paralleling in the beginning in Genesis. Yeah. And now he's using this metaphor of tabernacle, the tent of tabernacle. 00:02:11:18 - 00:02:13:01 Rev. Trudy Okay. Okay. 00:02:13:02 - 00:02:22:22 Rev. Hannah Where God dwelled among the Israelites. Yeah. And the Greek verb that's used in this verb, implies setting up a tent. 00:02:23:00 - 00:02:25:00 Rev. Trudy Oh really. Yes. 00:02:25:01 - 00:02:42:11 Rev. Hannah Lived among us. Dwelt among us. Yeah. That's still the image that he was portraying. Yeah. Got moved in with us. It's not a single day visit. Not only on Sunday, God moved in to see the ugly and the real side of us. 00:02:42:12 - 00:02:44:09 Rev. Trudy God is living with us. 00:02:44:11 - 00:02:50:16 Rev. Hannah Okay. Yeah. That. That was the most interesting thing to begin. 00:02:50:17 - 00:03:05:01 Rev. Trudy That is interesting. I never knew about that connection. I got through seminary somehow without learning any languages. So, they looked at me and said, “yeah, she can't do it. She can't speak English.” So, I barely can do that. 00:03:05:02 - 00:03:08:04 Rev. Hannah I flunked it three times. 00:03:08:06 - 00:03:35:23 Rev. Trudy So I think part of the scandal of this, right, is God taking on flesh? God living among us? Yes. With us with the tent right there. Right. I can remember when I was just starting seminary. Joan Osborne. For those of you who may remember, I don't know, saying, “what if God were one of us?” 00:03:36:01 - 00:03:36:16 Rev. Hannah Oh. 00:03:36:18 - 00:04:01:11 Rev. Trudy Do you remember that song? Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah. What if God were one of us? And I remember ... I was singing it, and I felt so rebellious. And it's interesting though because that is our faith. That is a tenant of our Christian doctrine that the God took on flesh. The Word dwelt among us. That is key. 00:04:01:11 - 00:04:02:09 Rev. Hannah To humans. 00:04:02:14 - 00:04:24:22 Rev. Trudy In the human body. In human body. But it was scandalous for the people who were hearing this for the first time. And I think it's been scandalous ever since, depending on how much you want to think of Jesus as human. Right. We, in the Christian doctrine, say Jesus is fully human and fully divine. 00:04:25:00 - 00:04:32:12 Rev. Trudy But there are limits, I think we have posed, whether or not Jesus really is human. Right. 00:04:32:12 - 00:04:33:01 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:04:33:03 - 00:04:59:21 Rev. Trudy Do you remember the Da Vinci Code? Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. That little spoiler at the end. It's been a while since I've seen it, but, it's they imply Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene. And they had a child. That he didn't really get killed. At least not until, you know, the child was born. Right. And that that child carries on the bloodline. 00:04:59:23 - 00:05:07:14 Rev. Trudy That's an interesting thing. Yes. Right. Yes. Right. How human are we going to let Jesus be? 00:05:07:16 - 00:05:14:03 Rev. Hannah In our tradition, in our history, we have divinized ... or ... 00:05:14:03 - 00:05:16:09 Rev. Trudy Made a deity. 00:05:16:09 - 00:05:21:22 Rev. Hannah Made God more, made Jesus more divine than he was fully human. Yeah. 00:05:21:23 - 00:05:24:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. For sure. Yeah. 00:05:24:12 - 00:05:29:00 Rev. Hannah So, John is inviting us: Can you see the humanness in Jesus? 00:05:29:00 - 00:05:43:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. That really is interesting because we have pushed it so quickly to, “Oh, yeah, divine different right, with God from the very beginning.” But that other part of being human. There there are definitely limits. 00:05:43:06 - 00:05:51:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. And so as a result, we ended up adoring and worshiping Jesus without following. Yeah. 00:05:51:14 - 00:06:07:19 Rev. Trudy Well it's hard if Jesus is so perfect. You know, I think I have said at a time or two in this podcast, as we've talked about the Word becoming flesh, that you know, Jesus who can do all of the things that are all divine, isn't much help for me. 00:06:07:21 - 00:06:09:03 Rev. Hannah No. 00:06:09:05 - 00:06:11:16 Rev. Trudy Right. I mean, God bless him. 00:06:11:18 - 00:06:12:23 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:06:13:01 - 00:06:38:20 Rev. Trudy Sounded weird. Sounded a little ... made my soul jump a little bit – “why did you day that?” – anyway ... but, yeah, I think there is something really powerful about that idea that Jesus was human. And to explore that a little bit more, I'm going to have to quote another, little bit of culture, if we can call a book by Christopher Moore culture. 00:06:38:22 - 00:06:41:16 Rev. Trudy This is book called “The Lamb.” 00:06:41:20 - 00:06:42:11 Rev. Hannah Oh. 00:06:42:13 - 00:07:11:05 Rev. Trudy And it's the gospel according to Biff, Jesus's childhood best friend. And it trims up all sorts of these interesting shenanigans from the view of a very human young boy, Biff. Right. But I know it made ... a lot of it made me uncomfortable when I first read it. That idea that Jesus really is fully human. So, I connect though with Jesus. 00:07:11:07 - 00:07:36:13 Rev. Trudy And his humanity. In, when he gets it wrong. You know, we don't like to actually deal with those scriptures but he gets it wrong sometimes. Yes he gets it wrong. The Syro-Phoenician woman. We've talked about him right. Or her. And when he turns over the table in anger. 00:07:36:15 - 00:07:57:06 Rev. Trudy When he cries over his church. You know. Or he cries after his friend Lazarus. Right. I can relate to Jesus. Who ... I get it wrong. I cry. I get angry. Haven't flipped the table yet but ... 00:07:57:08 - 00:08:05:13 Rev. Hannah We blame others. Well the religious leaders. Yeah. Well Jesus did. Right. That's human nature. 00:08:05:15 - 00:08:11:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But I think that's really helpful to see that in the Gospels rather than to gloss it over. 00:08:11:06 - 00:08:23:04 Rev. Hannah And you think. And throughout the entire Gospel of John, we see a lot of Jesus humanness. Yeah. There is no divine. 00:08:23:06 - 00:08:34:06 Rev. Trudy And now it's interesting you say that because I see Jesus saying, “I am.” And I think, “Oh, that's the voice of God speaking right there!” So I see that is divinity. But tell me more about what you're thinking. 00:08:34:09 - 00:08:57:06 Rev. Hannah But even if “I am claim” is there. He's claiming that as a human, and you see a lot of human everyday life throughout the Gospel and interactions with people and encounters with people. So, he's operating in this world. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's what I meant. 00:08:57:08 - 00:08:58:21 Rev. Trudy That's right. Yeah. That makes sense. 00:08:58:23 - 00:09:03:08 Rev. Hannah There are divine sparks being glimpsed in his humanness. 00:09:03:09 - 00:09:15:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. He could have written the Gospel a little, very differently. If he really wanted to emphasize the divinity. So it seems like he's got something more going on here. 00:09:15:12 - 00:09:22:12 Rev. Hannah Must have been written before the doctrines came. 00:09:22:14 - 00:09:31:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are there any ways you can't see Jesus as human? 00:09:31:18 - 00:09:38:02 Rev. Hannah Not really. Yeah. Yeah. Not really for me. 00:09:38:04 - 00:09:43:06 Rev. Trudy Have you always been like that? I mean, is that something you learned from your faith? 00:09:43:08 - 00:10:13:23 Rev. Hannah Well, I grew up in a tradition where Jesus was considered to be more divine than human. Yeah. But as I walked along my faith journey, I began to see the humanness and how scandalous John 1:14 became for me. Yeah. Yeah. That, it's before this time, before in in any of our religious backgrounds. We go to church, we go to worship God. 00:10:14:00 - 00:10:47:03 Rev. Hannah And in the Jewish communities, they went to offer the sacrifices. Yeah. But here in this gospel, God came to us. It was a different direction of movement. Movement. Yeah. And so it was along with my theological expansion and deepening and all that. That helped me finally see why John 114 is so scandalous. Yeah. In our own understanding of the divine. 00:10:47:04 - 00:10:56:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I tend to want to make Jesus more divine when he is facing the cross. 00:10:56:21 - 00:10:58:02 Rev. Hannah That aspect. Yes. 00:10:58:02 - 00:11:20:03 Rev. Trudy Because ... only because I don't know that I could do it. If he were, if he were human and doing that, it's a whole other thing. Yeah. Right. He is being courageous in the face of so much threats. 00:11:20:05 - 00:11:26:05 Rev. Trudy And I don't know that I could ever do that. 00:11:26:07 - 00:11:57:08 Rev. Hannah I wondered now that you mentioned a specific case, I wondered if Jesus lived with the human nature and the divine call in him in his own skin and flesh. And he had those moments where he had to do a long prayer in the Gospel of John 15. And within him, the divine call and divine nature in the humanness. 00:11:57:10 - 00:12:26:17 Rev. Hannah Always struggled. Yeah. And that's why he cried and teared and he screamed on the cross and that's why he prayed. Yeah. And I'd have if I were in Jesus’ shoes, I would have stopped right before being crucified. Yeah. But his divine nature is the one that actually pushed him one step further than 00:12:26:18 - 00:12:27:15 Rev. Hannah ordinary humans. 00:12:27:16 - 00:12:42:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You do see Jesus struggle. When it comes to the cross the, the prayer, the why have you forsaken me. I mean all of that. And so, that's a good way to explain that. You ready to move on a little bit? Yes. Okay. 00:12:42:19 - 00:12:43:17 Rev. Hannah Lead me. Yeah. 00:12:43:20 - 00:13:09:12 Rev. Trudy So, that's the “word made flesh lived among us.” And the scripture then goes on, “we have seen his glory.” Oh, you have seen his glory. But the only thing I think of is the Crystal Cathedral. The glory of Easter I saw when I was a teenager. I think it was glorious. I can't imagine it was the way it happened. 00:13:09:14 - 00:13:15:14 Rev. Trudy But, what do you see when you see the: “And they have seen his glory.” 00:13:15:16 - 00:13:25:01 Rev. Hannah So, here we hear – sorry for being a nerd – we hear the first person plural: “We have seen.” 00:13:25:01 - 00:13:26:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:26:04 - 00:13:52:16 Rev. Hannah In past tense. We have seen his glory. So imagine a community seeing this divine lived among them. So it's not just a prologue. It's more of their communal confession. 00:13:52:18 - 00:13:56:04 Rev. Trudy Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:56:06 - 00:13:59:05 Rev. Hannah That's what I see in these verses. 00:13:59:05 - 00:14:24:21 Rev. Trudy As you name that, I imagine you know, this is not very soon after Jesus was crucified and resurrected. It was a long time before John wrote the gospel. And so, I picture this community of faith. Not reliant upon the resurrection appearances. 00:14:24:23 - 00:14:53:23 Rev. Trudy But reliant upon other things. Maybe the shared stories that taught them about Jesus, maybe the powerful reversals of the parables he told. Yes. You know, maybe it was the characters in the Gospel of John, if you will. You know that represented this is how a disciple should live. And in those things they see the glory of God. 00:14:54:03 - 00:15:09:23 Rev. Hannah Yes. In their community of witnesses. Yeah. It's not just witnesses. It's a community shaped by that flesh. Because the Word becoming flesh. Yeah. Lived among us. Even if that flesh is long gone. 00:15:09:23 - 00:15:38:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. You know, I can't. I can't help but think of that witness of seeing Jesus as human. But knowing there is something divine there, too. I mean, I'm not sure they had the language to understand that. I have no doubt that that combination allowed them to face the persecution that they would face as early followers. 00:15:39:01 - 00:15:46:03 Rev. Trudy It wasn't, it wasn't a a doctrinal statement. It was a way of life. 00:15:46:05 - 00:15:56:23 Rev. Trudy It was taking the divine that they saw made flesh in Jesus and being able to live their everyday life. 00:15:57:01 - 00:16:02:13 Rev. Trudy With even if it meant. Persecution. 00:16:02:17 - 00:16:40:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. And now that I was listening to your unpacking of the story, I wondered if these ancient people ... have they ever saw any humans living like a divine person? So before then, the divine was always invisible. Untouchable. Yeah. Transcendent. Faraway distance. Yeah. And still, you fear that divine. Yeah. And worship. Yeah. But now the divine entered into this world and became the glory. 00:16:40:15 - 00:16:42:15 Rev. Hannah That they can resonate with. 00:16:42:15 - 00:16:43:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:16:43:17 - 00:16:50:04 Rev. Hannah And I see more scandal here. 00:16:50:06 - 00:16:51:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:51:06 - 00:16:53:19 Rev. Hannah A fellow who lived next door. 00:16:53:20 - 00:16:54:08 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:16:54:09 - 00:17:02:19 Rev. Hannah I heard it from my great grandfather, and grandfather, and grandmother. And my mother. And neighbors. 00:17:02:21 - 00:17:14:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. “And we have seen the glory of God.” In something so counter to what they expected. 00:17:14:19 - 00:17:22:10 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And it's not a recollection of their memory. It's more about this is how we are going to live. 00:17:22:11 - 00:17:30:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were going to make the word then become flesh within their lives. Yes. Within their everydayness. Yes. Yeah. 00:17:30:16 - 00:17:34:20 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Yeah. It's becoming more scandalous as we unveil. 00:17:34:22 - 00:17:44:14 Rev. Trudy Yeah. It is. Yeah. It is. So I, this passage made me think of panentheism. 00:17:44:16 - 00:17:46:06 Rev. Hannah You know. 00:17:46:08 - 00:18:09:06 Rev. Trudy Which is the belief that, God is both within the world and beyond the world. Within creation and beyond creation, immanent and transcendent. Right. And that's I think what this is saying. This divine nature of this human. 00:18:09:07 - 00:18:26:22 Rev. Trudy Right. And panentheism sees it in other, in other places, not just one particular person. Right. And I do think that's in our scripture too. I absolutely do. 00:18:26:22 - 00:18:38:07 Rev. Hannah Yes, I hear your word clearly loud and clear. So that's when I start shifting my understanding of God slightly in my theological journey. 00:18:38:08 - 00:18:38:21 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:18:38:21 - 00:18:48:18 Rev. Hannah So did I tell you about, I was about to leave the church and not believe in God? Well, in my 30s, I walked away from the church. 00:18:48:18 - 00:18:49:23 Rev. Trudy Wow. 00:18:50:00 - 00:19:21:10 Rev. Hannah Because the theology I was learning was not compatible with what we practice as Christians. So I almost left the church. Still continued to read books on process philosophy and theology, and came across the distinction between pantheism and panentheism. Yeah. Yeah. If that's the theology, we believe I can be a Christian. And follow the incarnation. 00:19:21:10 - 00:19:39:18 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And the easiest way for me to grasp the concept of panentheism was that God is in everything. Yeah. And everything and everyone. Everything. Everything on the earth is in God. Is dwelling in God's presence. 00:19:39:19 - 00:19:40:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:19:41:01 - 00:19:43:01 Rev. Hannah So, 00:19:43:03 - 00:19:47:11 Rev. Trudy Dwelling in God's presence and reflecting. 00:19:47:13 - 00:19:49:20 Rev. Trudy Something inside. Of God. 00:19:49:21 - 00:19:51:00 Rev. Hannah The divine spark. 00:19:51:00 - 00:20:19:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah I think so too. I think so too. It's funny you should say that in the context of thinking Christianity can't hold you. Right. I went down the rabbit hole in my preparation for our recording today and found an article, where, clearly panentheism from this Christian's perspective was absolutely not the way to think of God. 00:20:19:01 - 00:20:53:05 Rev. Trudy And I was really kind of shocked by that, and I was reading some of the article, and he had essentially made a straw man – a complete misunderstanding – of what God really is. And just watching some of his language as he's talking about it. It was really kind of interesting. He says that panentheism view of God could be summarized as all is one or all is God. 00:20:53:07 - 00:21:21:01 Rev. Trudy Which is not pantheon. That's just everything's immanent. And humankind has the same fundamental essence as the rest of the creative order. And he begins to talk about the way in which he wants humanity to be like in the creation story placed above with dominion over all of creation and of a different kind of being as that. 00:21:21:03 - 00:21:32:04 Rev. Trudy And it's funny because in the article, he shifts from humankind to mankind. I'm kind of thinking that might not have been a mistake. You know. 00:21:32:06 - 00:21:59:22 Rev. Trudy In 1925 still doing that. Right. But he's making a point. Mankind here is divine but no more divine than the rest of the material world. And then he begins to say, in fact, we've talked about Mother Earth and we talk about the environmental destruction as raping the earth and mankind and wildlife, our brothers and sisters, and all part of the same circle of life. 00:22:00:02 - 00:22:39:21 Rev. Trudy And that was all bad. According to his understanding. And, you know, as soon as he claimed the circle of life, I'm an Elton John fan. So of course I'm like, oh, he's wrong. I know he's wrong. But I just find it really interesting that kind of like the things I mentioned earlier and the gospel according to Biff and Joan Osborne, that the rancor that came up from this idea of panentheism that this man thought he had to create a straw man to knock down and burn. 00:22:39:23 - 00:23:17:04 Rev. Trudy And saying that there's a confusion between the Creator and the Creation. There's the same and it just doesn't understand what panentheism is. Right. All of that is to say. It makes it really hard to be able to engage in dialog with folks who have the more traditional Christian understanding when we can't even agree on the terms of things. 00:23:17:06 - 00:23:32:22 Rev. Trudy And what I'm wondering is what is he protecting. What does he think he's going to lose if we understand God is being present everywhere and beyond? 00:23:33:00 - 00:23:53:22 Rev. Trudy And the flip side of that is what does he have to gain? If he opened himself up a little bit to that idea. For me, I don't know. I can be snarky and mean and say, you know, he loses being right if he 00:23:54:00 - 00:23:59:22 Rev. Trudy thinks of this other understanding. But think more importantly, there's so much you could, you can gain. 00:24:00:00 - 00:24:03:02 Rev. Hannah God is still God. Yes. 00:24:03:04 - 00:24:28:13 Rev. Trudy Jesus is still Jesus. Because none of us have kind of figured out how to really live more divinely than humanly. Yes. There is still this greatness about what the faith in Christianity has to offer, but it's a little openness for how we encounter God. How we experience the Divine. How we see the glory. 00:24:28:15 - 00:24:34:17 Rev. Trudy Right. Yes. Why do we have to limit? In fact, I can't even see the any glory in anything he had said. 00:24:34:17 - 00:25:01:23 Rev. Hannah Right. Yes. I think he had a bad interpretation of panentheism and what it means for us. The beauty of panentheism, for me personally, is that everything has the beauty, the goodness, hesed of God. The grace and truth of God in them. That doesn't mean that we are full of glory. We are full of grace and truth. 00:25:02:00 - 00:25:04:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah. But we have a little glimpses of it. 00:25:04:14 - 00:25:05:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:25:05:02 - 00:25:09:09 Rev. Hannah And so are you. And so is everyone here and everywhere. 00:25:09:10 - 00:25:14:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And so does the man who has is clinging to this. 00:25:14:15 - 00:25:50:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yes. Right. And the beauty of panentheism. Sorry. We don't want to go back to that rock too much. But the beauty of that kind of understanding actually leaves room for mysteries of the divine. Yeah, and abundant grace. More than the humans can possibly fathom. Or imitate. This abundant grace that's beyond our own understanding, imagination. 00:25:50:15 - 00:26:18:09 Rev. Hannah And there is a possibility of the divine coming into our world in a mysterious ways. And that's when I gave up on thinking. I'm not know it all. I cannot possibly know every nature of God. So I'll just dwell in God. There you go. As one of the many. And seeing others in that relationship. 00:26:18:11 - 00:26:35:01 Rev. Trudy You said something. If, it's okay that we close. You said this and I think it's a beautiful takeaway. This passage helps us find divine goodness in our brokenness. 00:26:35:03 - 00:26:41:06 Rev. Trudy Especially as we see ourselves as part of the whole. Both nature and community. 00:26:41:06 - 00:26:45:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. Right. Yeah. 00:26:45:12 - 00:26:48:14 Rev. Trudy Divine goodness in our brokenness. 00:26:48:16 - 00:26:55:04 Rev. Hannah That's beautiful. Did I say that? And no, you interpreted it. 00:26:55:06 - 00:27:16:11 Rev. Trudy I'm pretty sure you said it. All right. I may have said. Yeah. Especially as we see ourselves as part of the whole. And if we're really going to take this seriously, then I've got to figure out a way to recognize this man who made me so mad about what he was saying about panentheism as my brother. 00:27:16:13 - 00:27:21:08 Rev. Hannah Exactly. 00:27:21:10 - 00:27:37:00 Rev. Hannah That's a beautiful way of taking John 1:14 away with us. Yeah. And I want to hear more about other people's take away from this. Do you have any other things to say before I pose questions? 00:27:37:01 - 00:27:43:06 Rev. Trudy Oh, you know, I always have something to say, but no, I think I'll save it for the sermon on Sunday. 00:27:43:07 - 00:28:14:04 Rev. Hannah Okay, good. Fair enough. We would love to hear more about how you take away John 1:14, but we would like to give you some questions to ponder upon, and please feel free to share your feedbacks and thoughts and your process of faith journey. So: How does the idea that Jesus lived a life just like us humans change the way you think about Jesus? 00:28:14:06 - 00:28:41:01 Rev. Hannah How does this understanding impact your everydayness? With whom have you felt the spirit of God? And I hope you enjoyed these questions. And hope you have some conversations with your fellow Christians. And thanks for listening in and thanks for joining us and see you next time. 00:28:41:03 - 00:28:57:01 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources visit fumcsd.org.