00:00:00:09 - 00:00:27:00 Rev. Trudy Is your faith all talk or is it all action? And do your actions transform just you or do they transform the world? That's what we're talking about. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:27:02 - 00:00:58:12 Rev. Trudy Welcome to this week's episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I am here with Reverend Brittany Juliette Hanlin. We are delighted to have you eavesdrop on our conversation. We are continuing this sermon series on The Unexpected Divine, a deep exploration of John, the Gospel of John, chapter 1. Today we're looking at John 1:12-13 as it relates to finding God in transformation. 00:00:58:14 - 00:01:20:12 Rev. Trudy And here's how the Scripture reads: “But to all who receive him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God who were born not of blood or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God.” Two short verses. A lot in it. 00:01:20:14 - 00:01:21:14 Rev. Brittany A lot in. 00:01:21:16 - 00:01:42:05 Rev. Trudy And I look at that, and I hear that phrase “become children of God.” And I think that's got to be a transformation in there somewhere. And Christian faith has talked about the transformative power of God, of God's love, of what Jesus does for us, and all of that kind of stuff. So that's how I paired it together. 00:01:42:10 - 00:01:46:11 Rev. Trudy But what on earth does transformation mean? 00:01:46:12 - 00:02:11:08 Rev. Brittany Well, I think the problem is that we don't really know in the church, right? Because I often find that I was always told, right, that when you encounter Christ, that you will be different. And I think growing up, I assumed that I wouldn't get angry anymore or that I would like ... I wouldn't get frustrated or, you know, easily. That was not the case. 00:02:11:13 - 00:02:38:00 Rev. Brittany I still get frustrated very easily. But this idea of transformation, now that I look on it, is how do you interact with other people in the world? How has coming to know Christ changed how you view others and how you use whatever your life is to make life better for other people? That, for me, is what I think about when I think about transformation as opposed to this. 00:02:38:00 - 00:02:40:09 Rev. Brittany Like. 00:02:40:11 - 00:02:45:19 Rev. Brittany Inward transformation that happens that doesn't produce anything outward. 00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:16 Rev. Trudy There you go. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And it's not instantaneous. It sounded like you were expecting something. There it is. 00:02:52:17 - 00:03:02:16 Rev. Brittany Just like when I talk about baptism, I just go, “oh, baby, I met Jesus, and I'm going to be ... nice and kind every day.” And no, I want to be. But that doesn't happen all the time. 00:03:02:18 - 00:03:23:09 Rev. Trudy I think a transformation, and I think of the passage in Romans 12:2. “Don't be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind so that you can figure out what is God's will, what is good and pleasing and mature.” This is the Common English Bible version. 00:03:23:11 - 00:03:47:22 Rev. Trudy I had a t shirt with the phrase on there. Absolutely. I love the idea of not conforming to the world. I love the idea of being able to do what was good and right and pleasing to God. And, you know, back in, you know, high school days, it felt like Christianity put you in a different category than everybody else in my peer circles. 00:03:48:02 - 00:03:57:15 Rev. Trudy Right. And I remember feeling left out of some of those circles because, well, they knew she's a Christian. Right. 00:03:57:20 - 00:03:59:03 Rev. Brittany Goody, goody. Yeah. 00:03:59:03 - 00:04:00:13 Rev. Trudy Well and I was. 00:04:00:15 - 00:04:01:02 Rev. Brittany Saying. 00:04:01:04 - 00:04:21:20 Rev. Trudy Pretty darn much. Right. Yeah. And transformation is ... it's a powerful word and there's such expectation within it. And I'd love to just kind of try and figure out the handle of what it is we can really expect. Right. 00:04:21:21 - 00:04:33:01 Rev. Brittany Well, you know, when I get to thinking about, like, “don't be transformed by this world.” I also think that, from my vantage point, that's problematic. 00:04:33:06 - 00:04:33:21 Rev. Trudy Oh yeah. 00:04:33:22 - 00:04:39:03 Rev. Brittany Because yeah, I think that what happens in the world should awaken you. 00:04:39:03 - 00:04:39:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:04:39:16 - 00:04:52:21 Rev. Brittany To what Jesus is calling us to do, what God would have us to do. So I do think that the world ... I don't think that we should, necessarily ... 00:04:52:23 - 00:04:58:20 Rev. Brittany If something is, I'm trying to, like, think of. I'm trying to say this without saying it, I guess. 00:04:58:22 - 00:05:00:02 Rev. Trudy Oh, just say it. 00:05:00:04 - 00:05:22:12 Rev. Brittany When I think about what's going on with, like, immigration, right? If you are not transformed by that, like if you're not moved by that, then you're not really being a Christian, because that should move you to think about people differently and how we interact. You're saying that's what I think, as opposed to this internal piety that you have. 00:05:22:12 - 00:05:29:01 Rev. Brittany Right. You know, that doesn't impact change. Yeah. For the greater good of people. Yeah. Does that make sense? 00:05:29:06 - 00:05:53:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But even still, in that kind of awareness of the world, we are invited to not conform to what we're seeing out there. If it's not the will of God, if it's not pleasing or good. Right. And it can't be. It has to be more than just recognizing that. It has to be, as you said earlier, that movement in your life. 00:05:53:08 - 00:06:23:13 Rev. Trudy And the impact to others. Right I think. I read one commentary that spoke about Jesus and his use of “the kingdom of God.” And explored the idea that the kingdom of God really was his shorthand way of talking about the transformation he came to initiate or to demonstrate. And it's the transformation of human beings and human institutions that he use that kingdom of God. 00:06:23:13 - 00:06:45:12 Rev. Trudy That's what he means. It means the citizens and the way it's run. Right? You know all of that. Social, political, economic and religious, I mean, all of that. And I think transformation, if it's going to be a big enough idea to be called transformation, it's gotta include all of those elements, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:45:17 - 00:06:52:01 Rev. Trudy And it's harder, though, to find that in us. We're so hard to change. 00:06:52:03 - 00:06:54:12 Rev. Brittany Oh, yeah. 00:06:54:14 - 00:06:55:12 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:06:55:14 - 00:06:56:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:06:56:23 - 00:07:23:09 Rev. Trudy The idea that Jesus calls us to this and, you know, using it. Part of this scripture talks about John being the one that gave witness to the light that came into the world, the word that came in. John called everybody to repentance, to turn around, to change form, to take on a very different kind of understanding of the world or different purpose of life. 00:07:23:11 - 00:07:49:07 Rev. Trudy And that was the beginning, then, of the transformation that Jesus was inviting all of us to – his disciples then and to us now. Right. And it, again, it's a transformation that affects all human institutions, or at least the kingdom of God. Suggests that it does, but it also suggests every aspect of our lives. 00:07:49:07 - 00:08:01:02 Rev. Trudy Right. And it's turning away from everything old or non conforming to God's will. That ain't easy. 00:08:01:04 - 00:08:14:01 Rev. Brittany It's certainly not easy. Yeah. It's certainly not easy. Yeah. Because I think in a lot of ways we ... we can make arguments for why we do the things that we do. 00:08:14:03 - 00:08:20:03 Rev. Trudy That's what they call original sin. Yeah. Right. Justification. Doggone it. We're good at it. We're very good at it. We, you know. 00:08:20:05 - 00:08:20:23 Rev. Brittany We all the time. 00:08:21:02 - 00:08:42:09 Rev. Trudy And there is a way. There is. There is the fact that the world keeps us in those systems, too, and that culture is not always perfect and needs to be changed and transformed, but the world pushes back on us so much. I think that's what I heard in that Romans passage. 00:08:42:11 - 00:08:43:04 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:08:43:06 - 00:09:08:12 Rev. Trudy And it's also very difficult going to both what's in the Romans passage and what John says is figuring out the will of God. Yeah. Right. “We are born not of the blood, not of the will of the flesh or of the will of man.” And we can name all sorts of things that get in the way of God's transformation in us. 00:09:08:14 - 00:09:21:06 Rev. Trudy When we think about what men might will or humanity might will. Right. Or what the flesh might will. but it's harder to understand the will of God. 00:09:21:07 - 00:09:42:07 Rev. Brittany Yes. But I also think it's ... I mean, when I think of the will of God, I think of Micah. You know, you just, I mean, and maybe that's just because I think you can look at these things I can't see. I can't have faith that's not rooted in justice because I, it just doesn't make sense to me otherwise. 00:09:42:08 - 00:10:06:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I don't understand the point of faith if it's not rooted in justice. But I think that the will of God, as for me at least, is to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk with God. In doing those things, to be a co-creator with God, in transforming the institutions and calling out the systems and working to be more justice oriented. 00:10:06:23 - 00:10:11:15 Rev. Brittany I know that's like simple, and it's more complicated than that of course, but yeah. Yeah. 00:10:11:18 - 00:10:17:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I'm ... are you familiar with Leslie Weatherhead? 00:10:17:08 - 00:10:18:11 Rev. Brittany No. 00:10:18:12 - 00:10:48:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. He was a, a pastor in London for the time, and he, was actually during World War II, and London was being bombarded by the Nazi Germans, and lots of people were killed, lots of buildings destroyed. And Reverend Weatherhead wanted to help people understand what the will of God might be, you know, because obviously, in that kind of scenario, we would be saying, “How could God let this happen?” 00:10:48:22 - 00:11:13:01 Rev. Trudy Right. And so, what is the will of God and how does that work? And what does that mean for all of us? He talks about distinguishing the kind of will that God has. And he named three different ways to understand God's will. The first was intentional will, and he describes that as being God's original, ideal plan for humanity and for all of creation. 00:11:13:01 - 00:11:29:04 Rev. Trudy Okay. The original ideal. Okay. And that's God's loving purpose for life and all of all of earth. And it also suggests that God does not make people suffer or cause evil to happen. That is not part of that intentional will. 00:11:29:07 - 00:11:30:08 Rev. Brittany I like it. 00:11:30:10 - 00:11:55:07 Rev. Trudy Then you have the circumstantial will. And this is how God works within life's painful realities. Right. Things will happen. Free will. All that good stuff. And God doesn't cause all of that. But he responds to it. She responds to it. Right. God responds to whatever is happening, the circumstances of your life, and tries to bring meaning and redemption out of it. 00:11:55:12 - 00:12:19:16 Rev. Trudy You know, God didn't have plans for Jesus to be crucified, didn't want Jesus to be crucified, but with that circumstance, did the best that could possibly have happened out of that. And then there's the ultimate will. Okay. According to Weatherhead, God's final purpose. That can't be thwarted. 00:12:19:18 - 00:12:21:07 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:12:21:09 - 00:12:49:16 Rev. Trudy And he says through human sin and suffering, that might delay that ultimate will of God. It might distort God's intentional will. But nothing can stop God's ultimate purpose of love, good, and redemption. It’s pretty good. It's pretty good. 00:12:49:18 - 00:12:59:01 Rev. Trudy I, kind of, I guess I, I maybe ... 00:12:59:03 - 00:13:25:20 Rev. Trudy I think I'm hesitant to embrace that last bit of ultimate will. Simply because it kind of ... it kind of depicts a return to Eden almost. And I don't think it's that kind of ultimate will. Not that ... not a ... it's not transformation if it is. Right. Because transformation is going to take us into a different place completely. 00:13:25:22 - 00:13:43:17 Rev. Trudy And if the ultimate will is to go back to the way it could have been from the very start, if we had only gotten our act together. Right. Doesn't allow for anything but judgment on who we are rather than invitation to transform. And it it's a, it's a movement back to Eden. Did that make any sense at all? 00:13:43:17 - 00:13:52:00 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I think that the third one, would negate the second and the first. Yeah. 00:13:52:01 - 00:13:52:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:13:52:12 - 00:13:53:14 Rev. Brittany In many ways. 00:13:53:16 - 00:14:03:19 Rev. Trudy Well, it does kind of beg the question: Well, God, why did you wait so long, if this is ... ? It does beg the question of why do you let these things happen? Correct. Right. Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:03:20 - 00:14:19:18 Rev. Brittany It's almost. I mean, if he were saying that, you know, the ultimate, God's ultimate will, is love will always rise up. Yeah. That makes a little bit more sense to me because I do believe that love never dies. And like, people try to kill it out and, you know, whatever. 00:14:19:21 - 00:14:22:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But, Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:22:17 - 00:14:24:23 Rev. Brittany I mean, I was with, I was with Reverend Wright. 00:14:24:23 - 00:14:26:10 Rev. Trudy Weatherhead. 00:14:26:12 - 00:14:34:22 Rev. Brittany But the third one, I'm not necessarily ... I'm struggling with in relation to how we, how the other two are then justified. 00:14:34:22 - 00:14:35:15 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:14:35:17 - 00:14:37:12 Rev. Brittany Or like highlighted. 00:14:37:14 - 00:14:48:20 Rev. Trudy So, coming back to this, this whole scripture. Right. The will of God is tricky. I mean, how can we know the mind of God except through tradition, experience, reason, in the scripture? 00:14:48:22 - 00:14:51:23 Rev. Brittany Come on! come on! Look at her! 00:14:52:01 - 00:15:18:07 Rev. Trudy That is for you. And there are things in the world that help us understand the need for transformation, as you've named. There are things in the world where God is working, beyond the church, that we need to pay attention to and honor as well. But there's some connection between our transformation and what God's doing. 00:15:18:09 - 00:15:21:01 Rev. Brittany Say it again. 00:15:21:03 - 00:15:27:14 Rev. Trudy There's some connection between our transformation and what God is doing. 00:15:27:15 - 00:15:28:07 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:15:28:09 - 00:16:03:01 Rev. Trudy And I think that's part of what it’s saying here in John. The idea that God, from the very beginning, wanted the Word to be embodied in all of creation. And in all of creation, there is that chance for love and delight and wonderful goodness and beauty. And Jesus comes as the Word in the flesh. 00:16:03:03 - 00:16:36:23 Rev. Trudy To inspire us to become children of God, as this passage says, which affords the same kind of transformative life that Jesus had. Right. Right. Yeah. In fact, our wonderful colleague Hannah Ka shared with us that this word “become” that is in this passage — “He gave power to become children of God to all of us.” — that is the same word that is used earlier when it reads 00:16:37:01 - 00:16:54:11 Rev. Trudy “And the Word became flesh and lived among us.” So that same verb of becoming applies to Jesus and to all of us, right, as well. Right. Now that's a kind of transformation that is beyond expectation for most of us. 00:16:54:13 - 00:16:58:03 Rev. Brittany Okay. So, then in reference to Jesus. 00:16:58:04 - 00:16:58:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:58:21 - 00:17:07:14 Rev. Brittany Do you think. That Jesus was transformed? 00:17:07:16 - 00:17:10:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Okay. 00:17:10:12 - 00:17:11:07 Rev. Brittany I don't disagree. 00:17:11:08 - 00:17:12:15 Rev. Trudy She just pulled that one out. 00:17:12:17 - 00:17:14:14 Rev. Brittany No, no, really. Because, I mean. 00:17:14:16 - 00:17:43:19 Rev. Trudy I know because right there. Yeah. So. The Divine Jesus would not have needed transformation. Right. The human Jesus would. Right. And I think we see evidence of that in scripture. Where you know the Syro-Phoenician woman comes and asks for a little bit of food and Jesus says, you know .... called her a dog. 00:17:44:00 - 00:17:45:16 Rev. Trudy The dog can eat the crumbs 00:17:45:18 - 00:18:08:21 Rev. Trudy from underneath the table. You know. Woman why are you asking? And she teaches them a lesson. So, yes, I think there is that transformation. And if we look at Jesus to help us understand how we are going to do that transformation. You knew that was coming. You were just waiting for that. Then we know how it we're looking up for us. 00:18:08:22 - 00:18:32:08 Rev. Brittany Exactly. That's the ... That's what I was essentially trying to get to. Jesus, too, was transformed throughout this process. Throughout his 33 years on earth living. I think that he came to understand suffering in a different way. I think that he came to understand women in a different way. I think he came to understand who he was and who God was in the world in a different way. 00:18:32:09 - 00:18:34:07 Rev. Brittany Yeah. As a human. Right? 00:18:34:11 - 00:18:34:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:18:34:19 - 00:18:46:18 Rev. Brittany Which means to me, that if that's the example, then I too must be willing to be moved and changed and surprised and in the unexpected. 00:18:47:00 - 00:18:47:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:18:47:11 - 00:18:48:23 Rev. Brittany You know. Yeah. 00:18:49:01 - 00:19:13:10 Rev. Trudy And part of it is just knowing. I mean, if we want to play into the poetry of John 1, you know, the Word, that’s the start of creation, part of it is just knowing the beauty of creation. And .... Oh, shoot! I just forgot where I'm going. My mind was going too fast. But but. 00:19:13:12 - 00:19:30:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah, but there's this ... there's something in the core of Jesus that he taps into, I think is what I'm trying to say, that allows him to do what the world would not want you to do. 00:19:30:20 - 00:19:31:12 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:19:31:14 - 00:20:18:17 Rev. Trudy Right. Whether it is knowing how God loves all of creation, that enables him to hear the women and the lepers and the people. And that beautiful affirmation of who we are as humans. In being very good and given a special place. And God does that. That gives us the affirmation we need to be able to stand with God. 00:20:18:19 - 00:20:19:05 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:20:19:06 - 00:20:43:22 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think. I think when we talk, like I said, I think when we talk about transformation, sometimes it feels like it's supposed to be this instantaneous change. But I think that true transformation happens over a course of a lifetime. And you're never, yeah. You never end this life the way that you began it. Yeah. 00:20:43:22 - 00:21:10:02 Rev. Brittany You know. Yeah. I mean, I just think that we evolve, if we are paying attention, right? We evolve. We change our ideas, change our beliefs, change our likes, our wants. All of those things change over time. And if we are willing to hear, and if we're willing to see God working in the world, I think that transformation. 00:21:10:03 - 00:21:11:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:11:18 - 00:21:17:23 Rev. Brittany Can be a holy one rather than one that causes self harm or harm to other people. 00:21:18:00 - 00:21:21:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. And that takes intention. 00:21:21:05 - 00:21:21:23 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:21:22:01 - 00:21:47:18 Rev. Trudy And it takes, it takes, it asks us to do that one. Right. The promise of transformation. God gave power to us. To become — or not — the children of God. Right. And we have to, we have to learn enough about what is broken before we can fix it. We have to learn enough about who has not heard before 00:21:47:18 - 00:22:13:05 Rev. Trudy we can value them. You know all of that kind of stuff. We have to, we have to work at making the kingdom of God real. And we have the power to do that if we're willing to have it change us and the desire. And if we're willing to have the desire of the kingdom of God to run through every part of our being right and lives. 00:22:13:06 - 00:22:28:17 Rev. Brittany Right. Because I think that we are given the power and it's up to us as to how we will use it and utilize it, and what type of power are we talking about, you know. Just because my little 38 cent. 00:22:28:17 - 00:22:50:22 Rev. Trudy And it's so easy to just kind of let the days go by, and the weeks go by, and the years go by, and life go by. And you're just kind of doing what everybody else does. And, you know, we might sit there and say, “Oh, that's so horrible what's happening right now over in, Minneapolis.” Right. 00:22:51:00 - 00:22:53:20 Rev. Brittany Anywhere. Anywhere. 00:22:53:22 - 00:23:03:22 Rev. Trudy You can say that, right. Or wherever. Right? Exactly. It's horrible. That's not transformation. 00:23:04:00 - 00:23:05:08 Rev. Brittany Right? 00:23:05:10 - 00:23:07:07 Rev. Trudy It's just squandering the gift. 00:23:07:09 - 00:23:22:00 Rev. Brittany Correct. And, you know, as much as I love social media and, you know. It's also not enough. And I don't know what the answer is for us to be outraged or not on a post or not. You know, like transformation is not just 00:23:22:01 - 00:23:23:15 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:23:23:17 - 00:23:50:00 Rev. Brittany Being angry. You know. It's also what are you going to do with this righteous indignation that you feel? Or what are you going to do now that you have had this awakening, right? What, where do you move in your spirit? And where do you move in the world to show that differently, you know? Yeah. And I still struggle with that because, like, it's easy to say like, “oh, I don't like this thing” and to whatever on social media. 00:23:50:00 - 00:24:00:13 Rev. Brittany But it's also like, okay, so then what do how does my life live out this, this feeling? You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. How do ... what do I do with it? 00:24:00:14 - 00:24:24:12 Rev. Trudy Well, it ... and it's all exhausting. Correct. Right. It's how we started at the beginning. It's really hard for us to change, right? Change is exhausting. You know, moving from one place to another is exhausting, right. Having a new person in your life is exhausting. You know, whether it's a baby or a parent, you're taking care. All of it. 00:24:24:15 - 00:24:27:14 Rev. Trudy Those are, those are changes we are more apt to take. 00:24:27:14 - 00:24:27:22 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:24:28:04 - 00:24:35:11 Rev. Trudy Or to make than the change to protest what we think is wrong in the world. 00:24:35:11 - 00:24:46:19 Rev. Brittany But see, then my question is, right, where in any of our text does it say that that to follow Christ is convenient? 00:24:46:20 - 00:24:47:12 Rev. Trudy Yes. 00:24:47:13 - 00:25:06:04 Rev. Brittany Because it's not. Absolutely. And it wasn't convenient for him. And if he we talk about the Christ. Yeah. They're right. Yeah. If Jesus had to take a moment away from the people to say, I need to rest. Yeah. Right. That's. Yeah. That's how we do this work, is to create boundaries when we know that we need a moment and to also check back in with God. 00:25:06:05 - 00:25:08:03 Rev. Brittany You know, like, all the time. Always. 00:25:08:03 - 00:25:08:18 Rev. Trudy All the time. 00:25:08:19 - 00:25:26:06 Rev. Brittany We don't always do that. I know for me, I get in the groove, and the moving, and I'm so whatever. Yeah, but I haven't spent a moment having a conversation with God and saying, like, “okay, give me some guidance, give me some direction.” Because I ... God’s over there and I'm here. And I got to worry about this. 00:25:26:06 - 00:25:28:11 Rev. Brittany Right. And, you know, give me a message. You got one. 00:25:28:11 - 00:25:30:00 Rev. Trudy I guess it's that intention. 00:25:30:03 - 00:25:32:09 Rev. Brittany Exactly. Right. 00:25:32:11 - 00:25:58:10 Rev. Trudy And it's worth it. Not that we'll see everything get better. Not that we'll see the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven, but just the groundedness of having the Word of all creation be in us as light. And to be able to rest there. It is huge. 00:25:58:12 - 00:26:08:02 Rev. Brittany It is huge. And I think it's the only thing that we have to hold on to, at least in my opinion, in the midst of such. 00:26:08:02 - 00:26:08:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:26:08:22 - 00:26:12:22 Rev. Brittany Tragedy and chaos and heartbreak. 00:26:13:00 - 00:26:14:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And even then, it's hard to. 00:26:14:21 - 00:26:15:09 Rev. Brittany Of course. 00:26:15:10 - 00:26:53:21 Rev. Trudy It is the only thing we have to hang on to when we're on our deathbed. Right. And my image of that is beautiful. To be in that moment when God ... when we understand more deeply, in the full presence of God, as we crossover. I think that that's bound to produce, if we're still in our kind of thinking mind on earth. 00:26:53:23 - 00:26:58:02 Rev. Trudy I would think we would say “why didn't I embrace this earlier?” 00:26:58:04 - 00:26:59:01 Rev. Brittany Right. Yeah. 00:26:59:03 - 00:27:02:00 Rev. Trudy “Why didn't I?!” 00:27:02:02 - 00:27:03:03 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:27:03:05 - 00:27:06:08 Rev. Trudy Oh boy. We've covered a lot of things for now. 00:27:06:09 - 00:27:11:14 Rev. Brittany My brain is kind of hurting because I'm like I'm still on track. Okay. 00:27:11:16 - 00:27:12:07 Rev. Trudy Sorry. 00:27:12:09 - 00:27:13:09 Rev. Brittany No it's fine. 00:27:13:11 - 00:27:23:07 Rev. Trudy It's fine. We're just going to ask people that, you know pick up what they need in this podcast. I feel like we're kind of like everywhere, but there's a lot there. 00:27:23:09 - 00:27:24:16 Rev. Brittany Quickly, before we go. 00:27:24:17 - 00:27:29:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:27:29:08 - 00:27:46:22 Rev. Brittany “The will of God versus the will of flesh.” Right. Yeah. What does that look like? Because when I think of the will of God, I've already said what I think the will of God is. And I think that flesh will tell me, “Yeah that I don't need to worry about what's going on in Israel and Gaza.” 00:27:46:22 - 00:27:51:10 Rev. Brittany “I don't need to worry about what's going on in Sudan because, like, they're over there.” you know, they. 00:27:51:13 - 00:28:12:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of dualism going on right here. Yeah. And dualism, that the idea that Spirit is good and flesh is bad. Right. Or, light is good and dark is bad. Earth is good. Or heaven is good and earth is bad. World is bad. Whatever. A lot of dualism going on in here. 00:28:12:14 - 00:28:19:03 Rev. Trudy That the that the church picks up and carries on and we've inherited and we keep trying to shake it loose. But it's there. 00:28:19:05 - 00:28:19:21 Rev. Brittany Certainly. 00:28:19:22 - 00:28:48:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. But I think, you know, the will of the flesh in Biblical scholarship is typically is around sex. Right. It's typically around those passions and desires. And we know that the Greek had some interesting practices that, you know, we consider unethical. Right. So, there was a break away from that. 00:28:48:22 - 00:29:01:07 Rev. Trudy And that may or may not be what we, how we understand that today. Right. But I think there, 00:29:01:09 - 00:29:26:13 Rev. Trudy I think our bodies can get in the way and they can be helps as well. Right. I think about the will of the flesh, that gets in the way of our transformation, is that ability to know our bodies and our health and what we need to do to maintain them and to deal with the stress and the way we take care of our bodies, is one thing. And that will of the flesh 00:29:26:13 - 00:29:36:18 Rev. Trudy sometimes, we you know, we read that wrong. And we'll eat the dozen donuts rather than, you know, and get a good night's sleep. 00:29:36:20 - 00:29:38:12 Rev. Brittany Right, for sure. 00:29:38:13 - 00:29:54:21 Rev. Trudy Addictions. You know, all of that body image will take our minds away from things we should be talking about. So those kinds of wills of the flesh, I think are counter to what would be the transformation God offers to us. 00:29:54:22 - 00:30:07:13 Rev. Brittany It's almost like, just a small example, when you're talking about body image. Yeah. I will say something negative about my self and I, but I know that that's not how God would describe me. Right. But in my own fleshiness. 00:30:07:14 - 00:30:08:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:30:08:06 - 00:30:14:06 Rev. Brittany I have a negative thought about who I am, right. As a, or someone you know, as opposed to how God. 00:30:14:08 - 00:30:14:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:30:14:16 - 00:30:15:12 Rev. Brittany Would see me. 00:30:15:12 - 00:30:45:00 Rev. Trudy Right? Right. Right. And, you know, I mean, there is that part, especially with women. I think. I'm a woman, so I'm going to say that. But, maybe this is not the case. But, there is that sexual aspect of how we are seen. That can be really damaging for everybody. You know, the system that happens about. 00:30:45:02 - 00:31:06:05 Rev. Trudy But I also think this is coming ... here's this circumstantial will of God. I also think that in the coming together of people that love each other in that consensual enjoyment of one another's body, has the potential to aid in the transformation. 00:31:06:10 - 00:31:06:23 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:31:07:01 - 00:31:44:04 Rev. Trudy Right. I think that the union of two people, the giving yourself to someone else in some of that. In the best possible scenario can be really beautiful. Similarly in the relationship or in the commitment to one another, whether it's through marriage or in other commitment, ways to express that, that gives you the space to be who you are and to be aware of who maybe you want to become. 00:31:44:06 - 00:31:52:09 Rev. Trudy And those relationships are really part of that too. So we're just deconstructing the duality of this whole passage a little bit I guess. Yeah. 00:31:52:11 - 00:32:17:21 Rev. Brittany I think it, just for me, is that we are not just the spirit, we are not just the head. We are not just the body. That we are a lot. But God would want us to be aligned. And so, if God created us in the flesh, then God doesn't see our flesh as a problem. But God is calling us to think and to be more expansive in who we are and whose we are. 00:32:17:21 - 00:32:43:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. And, coming back to the very beginning of this chapter, the Word being Logos in the Greek, they had this, the Greek had this understanding of the journey of the soul. Where the soul lived in the heavenly realm and would come down and take on the physical being and then would eventually come back up to the heavenly round as a soul. 00:32:43:18 - 00:32:52:00 Rev. Trudy So we aren't our bodies. We're more our souls. Which is an interesting way to think about things too. Right. 00:32:52:04 - 00:33:01:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah, I've heard that. I feel that in some ways. We could talk about this all day long. We could. We could talk about this all day long. I didn't think I’d be this into it. 00:33:01:09 - 00:33:06:04 Rev. Trudy People are probably ... maybe ... I hope they're still sitting in their car after their drive to work. 00:33:06:06 - 00:33:09:06 Rev. Brittany So let us know if it was not what you wanted. 00:33:09:08 - 00:33:10:05 Rev. Trudy Well, there you go. 00:33:10:09 - 00:33:12:13 Rev. Brittany It was our perspective. 00:33:12:15 - 00:33:14:23 Rev. Trudy There it is. Ask them for theirs. 00:33:15:04 - 00:33:42:06 Rev. Brittany We have some questions. We love to hear from you. Our first question is: What does it mean to become children of God? Our second question is: What does transformation look like in your life? And our third question is: How does your life reflect the will of God as you know it? We hope that you'll spend some time reflecting on those questions, and if you would like to reflect with others online, we invite you to join us on Patreon.com/fumcsd 00:33:42:07 - 00:33:56:07 Rev. Brittany And if you are in need of a good laugh. Oh yeah. Because we all are. Amen. Amen. Become a member and you can watch our latest blooper reel. Hilarious and embarrassing. 00:33:56:08 - 00:33:57:14 Rev. Trudy Yes, yes, yes. 00:33:57:14 - 00:34:02:11 Rev. Brittany But funny. We hope to see you next time. Bye. 00:34:02:13 - 00:34:18:11 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.