00:00:00:19 - 00:00:17:22 Rev. Hannah What if God's love isn't just out there somewhere, but flowing through every part of creation, even including those we struggle to welcome, as well as those we love dearly? Where might we notice it today? 00:00:18:00 - 00:00:27:08 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:27:10 - 00:01:01:06 Rev. Hannah Hello. Welcome to Perspectives. This is Hannah Ka, and I'm here in the studio with Reverend Brittany. Here we are continuing our series on the Unexpected Divine – in surprising places today, based on John chapter 1, verses 3 and 4. Short and sweet. This is how it goes: "All things came into being through him, and without him, not one thing came into being. 00:01:01:08 - 00:01:15:08 Rev. Hannah What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people." So, Reverend Brittany, what do you hear in these short verses? 00:01:15:10 - 00:01:43:13 Rev. Brittany I think I'm convicted. I think, you know, I think when you read scripture. At least for me, in this particular case, I feel convicted because I think of all of the people that I don't necessarily agree with. Right. Or people that I think are not necessarily living into God's light. And yet, and still, they have God's light in them. 00:01:43:14 - 00:02:09:12 Rev. Brittany They were created. They have the Divine spark. Exactly. That light, right. That Divine light is within them. And even though I don't always see it, doesn't take away from the fact that every person in humanity, all of God's creation, whether that's human beings, or the plants, the animals, whatever it is, was created in the light of God, right? 00:02:09:13 - 00:02:13:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yeah. And we may not be able to see it, but God can see them. 00:02:13:18 - 00:02:23:01 Rev. Brittany But God can in every creature. I think I need to start praying, Reverend Hannah, like: "God, help me to see your people the way that you do." 00:02:23:03 - 00:02:27:01 Rev. Hannah That was my. 00:02:27:03 - 00:02:28:23 Rev. Hannah Father-in-law's prayer every day. 00:02:29:00 - 00:02:53:15 Rev. Brittany Really? Yes. It's a, I mean, it really is true. Yes. Because I can, I mean, with all that happens in the world. Right. And you are inundated with information, and, oh, information overload. And I ... it can become very polarizing. Yeah. Where it's us versus them. Me versus him. You know, all of that kind of stuff. And you really forget that at the core of who we are is created. 00:02:53:16 - 00:03:30:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that is actually my prayer. Every time I go into a meeting or a place where I know that I have people that I struggle to welcome. And I think that you're not too far away from the author of John, the fourth Gospel, because people said God is God of Israel and there are Greeks who are saying the logos is Zeus. And so, they have their understanding of God and their idea and their reality. 00:03:30:02 - 00:03:36:20 Rev. Hannah And there are also these Christian folks who have come to follow Jesus. But not so sure. 00:03:36:22 - 00:03:37:19 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:03:37:21 - 00:03:59:23 Rev. Hannah About them. So, there are disagreements in that time. And John, or the author of this fourth gospel, creatively and beautifully wove them together so that he could speak to the Greeks, the Jews, and the Christians, and whoever else was there in disagreement. 00:04:00:01 - 00:04:20:12 Rev. Brittany Because disagreement is a part of what it means to be human. Right. It's a part of what it means to be a part of God's creation. We're not always going to agree. I don't think that that's the point. But I think the core of it is to try to always remember that we're more connected than we choose to believe. 00:04:20:14 - 00:04:25:08 Rev. Brittany Yes. That we have more in common than we understand, often. 00:04:25:09 - 00:04:48:05 Rev. Hannah No matter what color of your skin is, no matter what faith, tradition, and culture you're brought up in, there ... if we believe that there's a little bit of Divine sparkle in every human person, no matter what language that is, wouldn't the world be more welcoming of the Divine? 00:04:48:06 - 00:05:11:13 Rev. Brittany Oh wouldn't it? You know I'm going to tell a story, Reverend Hannah, because it's the truth. When I was, I graduated from college, and I did a year of service in Chicago. I lived with 15 other people who had just graduated from college. Very limited budget. Right. And I assume that we're going to get there, and because we've all applied to this program, that we're all coming at it from the same vantage point. 00:05:11:15 - 00:05:29:09 Rev. Brittany Naivete, of course. 22. Right. And one of my roommates and I, we did ... I'm talking about did not get along to the point that we had to like, sign an agreement that we wouldn't argue in the house. Right. And there was this one night, we were – it was a Catholic based organization – and we had like a spiritual retreat. 00:05:29:11 - 00:05:53:17 Rev. Brittany And one night, we were, we had to, like, pass this candle around and, like, look in each other's eyes and like, you know, have a moment of silence. And I couldn't, I could not stand this girl. Okay. It was bad. And it was something about being in the dark, getting the candle, and standing across from her that I just burst into tears because at the for the first time, I actually, like, took the time to see her. 00:05:53:18 - 00:06:12:03 Rev. Brittany Beyond our disagreements, beyond the fact that she lived in a different place, and I actually was like, "maybe she's dealing with something that I haven't paid attention to." Right. "Maybe she's like wrestling with something that I have just put off as her." Just being, you know, distant or having a bad attitude. But she's probably wrestling with something. 00:06:12:03 - 00:06:23:18 Rev. Brittany And that was the first time that I was actually able to connect with her on a human-to-human level. And, I mean, I burst into tears and everybody was like, afterwards, like, "did you just cry because of, like ... what was happening?" 00:06:23:23 - 00:06:24:19 Rev. Brittany And I was like, "I don't know." 00:06:24:19 - 00:06:25:19 Rev. Brittany I just felt God. 00:06:25:19 - 00:06:45:00 Rev. Brittany Like telling me to like, "let it go" and just like, "move on." And that was a really profound moment for me as a young adult, because it reminded me that even in the darkness, there is light, and that none of us are the totality of how we express ourselves out in the world. Like there's so much more to us. Yes. 00:06:45:00 - 00:06:45:07 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:06:45:09 - 00:07:11:07 Rev. Hannah And now that I hear your story, I think about myself, Hannah Ka 30 years ago, 40 years ago, or even 10 years ago, would have been different versions of Hannah Ka. And we continued to become a new person, different person, who shines the Divine sparkle in a different way. The seed is there, but we don't polish them well enough. 00:07:11:08 - 00:07:22:03 Rev. Hannah Right? It takes a life experience and a whole lot of challenges in our lives than just good old days. 00:07:22:07 - 00:07:22:19 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:07:22:20 - 00:07:57:13 Rev. Hannah And I see, the author of ... the fourth evangelist using simple words like "come to be." And "the life was light." So, there are mainly two verbs in Greek "come into being", which means "become." And "was" is the "to be" verb. And both of them were used in a past incomplete tenses. That is, started in the past but it's not done yet. 00:07:57:13 - 00:08:31:03 Rev. Hannah Correct. So God's ... the Divine ... the Unexpected Divine is not done working through every sparkle that's planted in all creation. And it's going towards the perfection. Or the holiness. Yes. Holiness. Wholeness. Yes. So, all that is to say, how often do we get frustrated and angry at someone for one incident? 00:08:31:04 - 00:08:32:08 Rev. Brittany Correct. Yeah. 00:08:32:10 - 00:08:58:17 Rev. Hannah Without seeing the whole spectrum of that person's life and relationship that has formed that person and the struggles that person is going through. So all that is to say, last week we talked about "eternity now" and that expansion of time horizon is now opening us up to all people. Continuing to become. 00:08:58:21 - 00:09:20:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I remember there was a ... I think it was America's Next Top Model season or something ... that this woman said, she was like a beauty queen and she would always say, "I may not be able to speak your language, but I realize that a smile is universal." And it's so true! And I've taken that with me because there have been so many instances when I've traveled across, you know, the world. 00:09:20:09 - 00:09:46:09 Rev. Brittany And I'm like, I don't know what you're saying, but I'm going to smile, you know, and realize that it's hard for everybody, but it costs nothing to show kindness to someone. It costs nothing to remind them that they are seen. And that they are a beautiful part of God's creation, too. Even if I don't have the words, my gestures and my interactions with them can show that to you. 00:09:46:10 - 00:09:58:03 Rev. Hannah Yes. So. The genuine nature within you, doesn't require a lot of translation. Yeah. 00:09:58:05 - 00:09:58:10 Rev. Brittany No. 00:09:58:11 - 00:10:05:00 Rev. Hannah It just speaks to each other. And you recognize the goodness when you see it in others. 00:10:05:03 - 00:10:29:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I think it's ... it's so much easier to call out what's not right. Right. Or somebody who doesn't agree with you or somebody who you don't feel like is walking in the way of the light. It's so much easier to call out those things. It's ... we don't really spend the time calling out the good things that someone did or the way in which they're, you know, the positive things about them. 00:10:29:09 - 00:10:37:19 Rev. Brittany It's really easy for us to say, "I don't like that they did this." But you also didn't think about the good things that they've done in the world. You know. 00:10:37:19 - 00:11:05:00 Rev. Hannah That is true and there is no absolute goodness or badness in the world. So, going back to the Scripture and verse 3 and 4. Verse three, I see the creation here. So we talked about, in the beginning in verse 1 last week, and we are continuing the same theme. "All things came into being through him." 00:11:05:02 - 00:11:33:13 Rev. Hannah "And without him, not one thing came into being." So this one verse, with few words – they're are all the same words! Repeating in two different ways. Few words. The author is expanding the horizon to include the Jews, the Christians, and the Greeks, and everyone through creation. And then the next verse brings sustenance part of it. 00:11:33:15 - 00:12:06:12 Rev. Hannah "What has come into being in him was life. And the life was the light of all people." So, not only the Word, the Logos. Whether it's in Greek tradition or Sophia [Wisdom] in the Jewish tradition, or the Word in Christian tradition, came into being and gave life to all people and light to all people. So, that gives me a little assurance that we don't have to struggle so hard. 00:12:06:14 - 00:12:28:06 Rev. Hannah We just follow the life and the light. And that's probably why John, the Gospel of John has a lot of "I am the light, that is the life." "I am the way." For us to follow the concrete example of the Incarnate Divine. So, I just love John chapter 1. 00:12:28:08 - 00:12:56:10 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean, if we take it back to Genesis, you know, he's not Jesus. "God dwelled over the face of the dark deep waters." Right. And John is saying that that light broke through that darkness essentially. Right. And so, I think that, at least for me, when I'm in a dark place, I am looking deeply for a glimmer, a glimpse, a cracked window, a sunshine, an artificial light, even. 00:12:56:11 - 00:13:24:03 Rev. Brittany I'll take ... I will take whatever, because it can get so dark, right? In feeling alone or feeling disenfranchised or feeling marginalized or disrespected. All of those things can just make you feel like there's no hope. There's no ... there's ... it's all dark. But John is saying that, "okay, yeah, there is darkness, but the light of God continues to shine in each and every one of us." 00:13:24:05 - 00:13:26:08 Rev. Brittany "No matter what." Yes. Yeah. 00:13:26:09 - 00:13:52:01 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And it's not in these two verses. But when John talked about the darkness, and the light driving out the darkness, he uses the past tense with the darkness. And uses the present progressive with the light. So, one thing comes before us but there is always something else, a light coming in. And lifting us up. 00:13:52:03 - 00:13:55:20 Rev. Hannah So that's the good part of this John chapter 1. 00:13:55:21 - 00:13:56:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:13:56:10 - 00:14:22:14 Rev. Hannah And then, if you pay attention to all the verbs and tenses and nouns that he chose to use, it just gives me a lot of hope. And if I can get a glimpse of it from a third, second, third, fourth-hand translation, think about the impact. His writing has had in the people who lived in his contemporary world. 00:14:22:15 - 00:14:31:15 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Especially for those, like you were talking about, the Greeks, like who were very heady. Let's, I mean ... 00:14:31:17 - 00:14:52:19 Rev. Brittany Broadly speaking, right. They weren't smarter than anybody else, but they may have thought they were. And so, John's language is so beautiful, but it's poignant and it pulls together. I mean, these similes and these metaphors that he uses to like draw the people in. I think is a beautiful way that his light shines through and continues to shine through us. 00:14:52:23 - 00:14:53:12 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:14:53:14 - 00:15:00:20 Rev. Hannah Weaving the creator God and the Logos of the Greek philosophy and the incarnation. 00:15:01:01 - 00:15:01:11 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:15:01:11 - 00:15:18:08 Rev. Hannah Christian theology. And that actually brought the Divine closer to everyday life. And he's saying that there's no one and nothing that doesn't have the Divine spark in them. 00:15:18:09 - 00:15:18:18 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:15:18:22 - 00:15:21:03 Rev. Hannah So, we shouldn't be surprised. 00:15:21:07 - 00:15:23:03 Rev. Brittany We shouldn't be surprised. 00:15:23:03 - 00:15:28:02 Rev. Hannah To see the Divine, the Unexpected Divine, in every moment of the life. 00:15:28:04 - 00:15:51:12 Rev. Brittany And I want to do ... I want to be better at that. I really do. I really do. Because I think I, again, I can be very polarized in what I think. And I, you know, I still think there are other ways that we could do this thing called life a little differently for everyone involved. But it's a good reminder to me that God created. 00:15:51:12 - 00:16:14:14 Rev. Brittany If I believe that God is the creator, then I have to believe that God created us all. Yes. Right. And that I'm no better than anyone else, even though I may think differently or my values may be different, may show up different. I'm a part of God's light. But this person is true and that person is and that together. 00:16:14:16 - 00:16:22:06 Rev. Brittany The Divine is working through us to do something that could be beautiful if we would only allow it to happen. 00:16:22:07 - 00:16:30:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that aspect of Christianity was the one that was attractive to Korean Christians. To begin with. 00:16:30:20 - 00:16:32:07 Rev. Brittany Tell me more. 00:16:32:10 - 00:17:14:21 Rev. Hannah So, contrary to other parts of the world being missionized, Korean Christianity started with Catholicism. So, before the Catholic missionaries came into our land, the Koreans went to China to get new books, the latest books from the world. And they came across some Catholic books that say "everyone is equal before God." So this was still a feudal society that has the owners and the slaves and whoever is in between – very classist society. 00:17:14:23 - 00:17:42:12 Rev. Hannah And this Confucian scholar, came to read this book, "everyone is equal before God." And he came back and brought this back to Korea and started practicing this principle with his household. He freed all the slaves and he equaled himself with whoever else is in the house. And it became a threat to the social order later on. 00:17:42:12 - 00:17:44:14 Rev. Brittany Shocking! 00:17:44:16 - 00:18:13:11 Rev. Hannah So he was persecuted by the King later on. But that was very attractive to people who were living under the Roman Empire in John's time or living under the King's regime in Korea or other places that we have. We all have the equal value, absolutely inherent dignity before God and the Divine sparks in us. 00:18:13:13 - 00:18:39:23 Rev. Brittany Well, it goes, you know, that's why folks didn't want enslaved Africans to read the Bible, that they would take out ... you know, they would give, it was called the Slaves Bible, where they would take out the part where "there's neither slave nor free." And they took all that out. Right? And it was this idea that these people knew how to read, and they could get into this word, and they would realize that God has intends for us all to be equal in to all the children of God. 00:18:39:23 - 00:18:56:17 Rev. Brittany So, the more people are separated, you know, and divided, the more we continue to pull away from that, grounding peace that we are all created in God's image. Yes. 00:18:56:18 - 00:19:13:16 Rev. Hannah And aren't you, aren't we, ashamed of the fact that we have limited the radical aspects of the Gospel? That Jesus came to be persecuted for this radical claim that everyone is equal before God? 00:19:13:18 - 00:19:34:16 Rev. Brittany See, that's where I get the polarizing! Because I'm like, how do we not? I mean, it's so beautiful and it's like, it's so simple. But we don't act it out, you know what I mean? It's like, of course we grow up even in school, right? I remember being in elementary school and it was "we're all children of God," you know, "God loves us all" kind of thing. 00:19:34:19 - 00:19:52:18 Rev. Brittany And then you get older and it's like, well, "I don't like what you did there." And it's just ... you start to be pulled against each other, you know what I mean? Like, we're not all the same anymore. In a way that you don't think about when you're a kid. But kids will run up to anyone and like give them hugs and, you know, talk. 00:19:52:20 - 00:19:59:04 Rev. Brittany There's no ... they don't see any of the things until the world indoctrinates them with a different. 00:19:59:06 - 00:20:32:19 Rev. Hannah Yes. And division is the tactic of the colonial power to divide and conquer. But Jesus came to unite everyone into one Logos, as one God, one Unexpected Divine. So ... can you just imagine a world, sitting in this room, where people can see the Divine sparkle in the person who is cutting the beef behind the store? 00:20:32:21 - 00:20:51:08 Rev. Hannah Or those who deliver Amazon products to your unit, without knowing a word in English? Or those who haul heavy Costco Instacart items to your door? 00:20:51:10 - 00:20:59:01 Rev. Brittany Those who pick the produce you plant? Like those who clean? You know, like. Yeah. 00:20:59:03 - 00:21:15:21 Rev. Hannah Can we see the Divine spark in the strawberries we eat? And see all the hands that have worked with sweat and tears, and all the exploitation that they go through? 00:21:15:23 - 00:21:16:15 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:21:16:17 - 00:21:28:19 Rev. Hannah And wouldn't we be able to change the way we live, the way we become touched by the Unexpected Divine in all places? 00:21:28:21 - 00:21:47:23 Rev. Brittany And what would it look like if we expected the unexpected? Like, what would it look like if we woke up in the morning and expected to see the Divine in each other? What would that look like? Because I don't typically think of that. I get up in the morning, I'm in a rush. I don't know, I just huff and puff. 00:21:47:23 - 00:22:04:02 Rev. Brittany Oh, I gotta get up, I'm moving slow. And that's not a way to ... you know, that day is a gift of life. You know. And I don't always cherish it as such. Yeah. Or think of it as such. And I certainly am not looking for the Divine in the people, you know what I mean? 00:22:04:04 - 00:22:05:11 Rev. Brittany As often as I should. 00:22:05:12 - 00:22:15:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yes. And I wake up with the same hymn every day, "Morning by morning, new mercies I see." 00:22:15:14 - 00:22:17:05 Rev. Brittany She's so churched! 00:22:17:07 - 00:22:26:08 Rev. Hannah No, that's so bad. That has been the only way for me to survive each day and look for something and expect something good. 00:22:26:08 - 00:22:49:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Yeah. I think we also just like in our inculturation, at least for me, I can say I have been in culture aided with, like, it's all going to fall, it's all going to fail. It's the you know what I mean? The sky is falling. The sky is falling. Chicken Little. Without the hope of what I can experience. 00:22:49:17 - 00:22:54:06 Rev. Brittany That's not. The sky is falling. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. 00:22:54:08 - 00:23:14:20 Rev. Hannah Well, well, I enjoyed my conversation. I think I can leave this room with a little more hope. Yeah, a little more expectations. Of the. The Unexpected Divine in every human life and every life on earth. So it's been a pleasure having the conversation around these two verses. 00:23:15:00 - 00:23:39:21 Rev. Brittany It's been great. Reverend Hannah and I will continue to pray the prayer that your father-in-law prayed. "God, help me to see your people the way that you do." Yeah, that is something that I will pray every day. Shake on it. We have a couple of questions that we'd like for you to ponder, reflect on. Our first question is: Have you ever encountered God through a conversation that you were avoiding or a person that you had written off? 00:23:39:23 - 00:24:03:21 Rev. Brittany Our second question is: How has an unexpected relationship changed your understanding of love, grace, or truth? And last: Where do you see life and light breaking through in places the world has written off? We hope that you'll spend some time reflecting with yourself or reflecting with those in your family or some of your friends. And we hope to see you next time. 00:24:03:23 - 00:24:05:19 Rev. Brittany Bye. 00:24:05:21 - 00:24:21:18 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org