00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:02 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. Today in this series that we have called The Anger Within Us, we're talking about violence. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. This is Reverend Brittany J. 00:00:29:03 - 00:00:55:05 Rev. Trudy Hanlin. She's here to have us both share with you our perspectives. So the story that we're talking about today comes from the gospel of Mark chapter 11, verses 15 through 17 read like this. "Then they, Jesus and the disciples, came to Jerusalem and He entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling and those who were buying in the temple. 00:00:55:07 - 00:01:19:04 Rev. Trudy And he overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold doves. And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple he was teaching and saying it is excuse me, is it not written? My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations. But you have made it a den of robbers." 00:01:19:06 - 00:01:43:12 Rev. Trudy I don't know. I can't read this passage without using my angry voice. Right? Jesus is angry. Angry enough to overturn tables right. This is another one of those instances we talked about last week, like cursing the fig tree. It's Jesus. Behaving so uncharacteristically. 00:01:43:12 - 00:01:45:04 Rev. Brittany That's the word. I'm here to help you grow. 00:01:45:05 - 00:02:10:04 Rev. Trudy Out of character. That's. There you go. And the easier, safer way to say that he's he's acting out of character, that we don't expect this from Jesus. He's violent, it seems. You know, if I had been there, I would have been scared. Tables, clattering, tabletops, cleared, shattering, clanking, trashing everything, you know, doves, coins. It seems violent to me. 00:02:10:05 - 00:02:34:10 Rev. Trudy And if the children were there, they would have been crying. And I know, at least in the context with which I usually read this passage, I know it's some sort of righteous indignation, right. But scared children don't know what righteous indignation is. It's just violence. And what do you do with this? 00:02:34:11 - 00:02:39:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah, it's very emotional. Like emotional hostility, volatility. 00:02:40:03 - 00:03:05:17 Rev. Brittany So, yeah. Reverend, do you just read the scripture? But the part that stuck out to me goes into the next verse, verse 18. And so when the chief priest and scribes heard what Jesus had done, they kept looking for another way to kill him, for they were afraid of him because the whole crowd was spellbound by his teaching. And then when the evening came, Jesus and his disciples went out of the city. 00:03:05:19 - 00:03:26:17 Rev. Brittany So when I think about this, when I when I read that Scripture in its entirety, I see Jesus's anger that we have labeled righteous indignation in many ways. Right. But still anger. And then I think about the scribes and the chief priests who are also angry and that their anger turns to violence quickly, Right? Jesus's anger turns to violence as he flips over the table. 00:03:26:22 - 00:03:30:12 Rev. Brittany But this violence is forever, right, to. 00:03:30:14 - 00:03:31:00 Rev. Trudy Be. 00:03:31:02 - 00:03:37:06 Rev. Brittany Directed at someone and to know that they were looking for a way to kill. 00:03:37:06 - 00:03:39:05 Rev. Trudy him, meditated, not react. 00:03:39:05 - 00:03:52:19 Rev. Brittany Exactly right. So it's not a response in many of the ways. I think that Jesus may be. And maybe, maybe because I have a little bit of righteous indignation, I don't know what I'm doing. Well, doesn't everybody. Don't we all. At some. 00:03:52:19 - 00:03:53:17 Rev. Trudy Point. Yeah. 00:03:53:19 - 00:04:13:18 Rev. Brittany Exactly. And that's the point of this text, I think, in many ways is that it shows us how fully human Jesus is, even as divine, as fully human. I mean, as fully divine as Jesus was. It also shows his full humanity that things in this world upset him and that he also struggled with anger and what to do with it. 00:04:13:21 - 00:04:14:07 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:04:14:09 - 00:04:16:06 Rev. Trudy Wait, wait. What? 00:04:16:08 - 00:04:40:01 Rev. Brittany That's what the book says. I wasn't there, but that's what the text tells us. And so this also isn't uncommon for us even in history. Right. We see this happening with Jesus, that he does something that has now upset the people because he describes. Right. He's speaking not only is he talking over the tables in the temple, but everyone is mesmerized by his willingness to do that right in his teachings. 00:04:40:03 - 00:04:59:20 Rev. Brittany And so they know that Jesus is he has this captivation, right. These people are captivated by him. And so what they're going to do now is follow him. And now the scribes and everyone, they're afraid of what that type of change might look like. Right. And we see that throughout history. Right, Dr. King? We love to talk about Dr. King. 00:04:59:20 - 00:05:20:17 Rev. Brittany And I think this is an apt opportunity to do so. Right. But Dr. King was saying things that went against the status of what was going on in society at that time. And while many people followed him and thought it was great, many people did not think that it was great. Right. And so we see these issues coming up not only in antiquity, but they happened in history, and they're still happening today. 00:05:20:19 - 00:05:22:05 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:05:22:07 - 00:05:43:14 Rev. Brittany Hi, there. It's Reverend Brittany, and I have a favor to ask if you're enjoying this episode of Perspectives. Well, please be sure to, like, follow, subscribe, share, and leave us a review. This helps make sure that others like you can get into the conversation as well. And if you'd like to support our ministry, you can give online visit at 00:05:43:14 - 00:05:57:01 Rev. Brittany fumcsd.org/giveonline. That's fumcsd.org/giveonline. Now let's get back into the conversation. 00:05:57:03 - 00:06:32:03 Rev. Trudy You know, Dr. King is is a beautiful example of that righteous indignation you know in in the dynamic of a situation that calls forth righteous indignation and requires some sort of action that can often turn to violence, whatever that action might be, it makes me think of Professor Walter Wink's theory or conversation book actually, about the myth of redemptive violence. 00:06:32:05 - 00:06:56:19 Rev. Trudy You know, it's that it's that belief that violence can save violence simply appears to be the nature of things, he writes. It's what works. It seems inevitable. The last and often the first resort in conflicts, the myth of the redemptive violence is the myth of the modern world. Walter Wink says it's the dominant religion in our society today. 00:06:56:19 - 00:07:27:05 Rev. Trudy It's not Christianity or Judaism or Islam. It's the myth of redemptive violence. And he points out that we teach it to our children through cartoons. right. You didn't see that coming. Yeah, right. So it's the structure of and see, you know, he talks about whoever captures the heart or the mind of children owns the future. See, so we're embedding, at least in my generation, this, this myth, because. 00:07:27:05 - 00:07:52:10 Rev. Trudy Right. Think about some of the cartoons that I grew up with. At least your maybe they got better your generation. But in some of the movies. Right. But the structure of cartoons found this pattern and it goes like this. And this is Wink's words. An indestructible hero is doggedly opposed to an era deformable and equally indestructible villain. Nothing can kill the hero, though. 00:07:52:10 - 00:08:13:13 Rev. Trudy For the first three quarters of the comic strip or TV show, you can see how old this is, right? He rarely see the hero suffers grievously and appears hopelessly doomed until miraculously the hero breaks free. Vanquish is the villain and restores order until the next episode. Right. 00:08:13:13 - 00:08:15:14 Rev. Brittany So like Bugs Bunny? Yes. 00:08:15:14 - 00:08:42:17 Rev. Trudy And both. Yes. And Yep. Finally. Coyote Wily. Yep. See? But we know in those cartoons, we. We know the good guy and we know the bad guy. And we're cheering for the good guy and we're booing for the bad guy. But when you look at their actions, the behavior. It's the same. It's violence. Right? 00:08:42:19 - 00:08:50:12 Rev. Trudy It's all violent. All it takes is the conviction that we are the good ones. And they are the bad ones. 00:08:50:14 - 00:09:10:03 Rev. Brittany I've noticed, even when I'm watching television shows or I'm watching a movie that isn't like a cartoon or whatever, I'm just watching something. Yeah. And our culture is rooted in violence that we are so desensitized to it. And I'm like, I don't think I'm a violent person, but I do find myself when I know that this is the protagonist, right? 00:09:10:03 - 00:09:13:08 Rev. Brittany And they're just the good guys. Get them right. Get em. 00:09:13:09 - 00:09:17:16 Rev. Trudy Poor Jaws. We cheered in the theater when he was blown up. Right. 00:09:17:17 - 00:09:20:11 Rev. Brittany It's like, it's a little bit wild. 00:09:20:14 - 00:09:47:20 Rev. Trudy So Wink actually writes redemptive violence gives way to violence as an end in itself. It is no longer religion that uses violence in pursuit of order or salvation, but one in which violence has become an aphrodisiac, sheer titillation and addictive high a substitute for relationships. Violence is no longer the means to a higher good. Violence becomes the end. 00:09:47:22 - 00:10:14:13 Rev. Trudy So coming back to this story, I have heard some people hear this story, Jesus overturning the tables as permission to for righteous justification. Indignation, right? To be violent. To. To get in there and shake things up and turn over some tables and shout at the top of your legs and make threats. And. And it's for your own good is for the good of the world. 00:10:14:14 - 00:10:45:01 Rev. Trudy Right. And Christian history has shown that interpretations of Scripture, passages like this and many others have given rise to anti-Semitism and also given justifiable station for Christians to commit horrific acts of violence against our Jewish brothers and sisters. And this passage in particular gives way to that because it is interpreted as an indictment against the temple. 00:10:45:05 - 00:10:45:19 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:10:45:21 - 00:10:47:13 Rev. Trudy What do you do with this? 00:10:47:14 - 00:11:11:10 Rev. Brittany Well, luckily, yeah, I went to Vanderbilt Divinity School and my New Testament, Professor Amy-Jill Levine, who is an Orthodox Jewish woman who teaches the New Testament, definitely helps me think of the Scriptures in a different way. Right. And to read them outside of my own lens, because again, yeah, I'm a little turning over the tables with Jesus in the temple. 00:11:11:10 - 00:11:14:20 Rev. Brittany That's you know what I mean? I'm working on it. However. 00:11:14:20 - 00:11:18:13 Rev. Trudy Amy-Jill. Yes, she's a Jewish Orthodox Orthodox Jew. 00:11:18:14 - 00:11:19:05 Rev. Brittany She is a. 00:11:19:05 - 00:11:22:01 Rev. Trudy Woman. What an amazing perspective it was. 00:11:22:01 - 00:11:41:17 Rev. Brittany And it has been. And so when I read the scriptures, especially the ones that are rooted a lot in anti-Semitism, I go back to the fact that this is still a Jewish text, that Jesus was still a Jewish man. Right. And so anything that Jesus is doing, he's doing it for the people in which he knows and the community in which he knows and hopefully those that he does not know as well. 00:11:41:19 - 00:11:59:19 Rev. Brittany But Amy-Jill Levine makes a really good point when she says that a lot of people are assuming that Jesus is making an indictment against the temple in and of itself. Right. That the temple should be destroyed and that the temple is going to be destroyed and then the church is going to be built. Do you know anything about the church, though? 00:11:59:19 - 00:12:15:01 Rev. Brittany We're not. Come on, guys, know that's not the case, right? But Jesus does have something to say, and it's an indictment, but it's not on the temple. The idea is that people are coming to the temple, right? And they're going through business as usual. That's what the book of Jeremiah says, right? They're doing business as usual. They're praying. 00:12:15:01 - 00:12:37:03 Rev. Brittany They're making these sacrifices, but then they're going out and doing the exact same thing that they've been doing. The piece that's missing in this coming to the temple is the act of repentance. Right? And so Jesus isn't condemning the fact that the temple exists. Jesus isn't even condemning that. The money exchange, because that was what was historically known at the time. 00:12:37:03 - 00:13:05:12 Rev. Brittany Right. Jesus is condemning the fact that people are coming to do business as usual and not taking any accountability for the repentance that needs to come in order for them to live lives fully with God. So when we think about Jesus in his indictment, yeah, he is he's really upset, but he's upset less with the visual and the symbology of the temple and more with we're supposed to come here to be changed and we're not being changed to. 00:13:05:14 - 00:13:32:21 Rev. Trudy Makes me think of the Protestant Reformation, right? People were buying indulgences. The church was send them, send and selling them and nothing really was changing right in the behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I in the context of redemptive violence and it really wasn't an indictment against the temple. I, I still want Jesus to answer to some of this. 00:13:33:02 - 00:14:00:04 Rev. Trudy You know, in the end, I don't know. In some ways, it makes it worse that he was mad at the people. Right. And. And I think part of what I see as I put this instance against what happened at the end of the week, right when Jesus is arrested and has to stand in front of Pilate, he he's in a very different position for sure. 00:14:00:06 - 00:14:25:20 Rev. Trudy But I also see the way in which it could have gone a different way. Right. But so it makes me think that from this moment to that moment, talking about Jesus being human. Jesus has has grown some you know, he has understood a little bit more about what to do with that righteous indignation. I mean, it sounds weird. 00:14:26:02 - 00:14:56:17 Rev. Trudy He's fully human, fully divine, our theology says. So he he could have grown from that point to now. But when we see him in front of Pilate, he's he stands subdued. He's not arguing. He's not engaging. He's not shouting proclamations or judgment. He's not making threats. He's not. He's not righteously indignant then. Right. He is just a man standing accused in front of a man with the power. 00:14:56:19 - 00:15:28:03 Rev. Trudy And he stands tall with dignity, with self-respect, and with conviction. And will not engage in the violent power struggle that is in front of him at that moment. He's stands there without anger, without violence, without giving Pilate anything that might actually give him the opportunity to say, "See, I told you he was a criminal." 00:15:28:05 - 00:15:50:10 Rev. Trudy Look at what he's done here. Right. I see it with my own eyes. He gives them nothing. And for me, this is the key for what I take away with my own anger and my own sense of righteous indignation or my own tendency to violence, even if it is just slamming my hand down on the table, right? 00:15:50:11 - 00:16:19:18 Rev. Trudy I see. In. In that difference Jesus standing before Pilate, Jesus makes very clear the distinction that he is a good man. Because this is his behavior. It is different than the violence that is surrounding him in that system. And in doing so, Jesus negates the idea that any kind of redemption can come from violence. 00:16:23:04 - 00:16:29:20 Rev. Trudy I think of Martin Luther King Jr. Standing in front of the. The fire hoses. Right. 00:16:29:22 - 00:16:32:10 Rev. Brittany Well, then, Reverend Trudy, I have a question then. 00:16:32:10 - 00:16:32:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:32:22 - 00:16:57:19 Rev. Brittany I didn't know it was going to come up, but I do now. Okay, So if Jesus is standing before Pilate and realizing that I'm not going to give in to the violent nature of the system. Right, then why is it, as Christians, do we take the cross as a redemptive act and we don't pay attention to the violence that ensued around it? 00:16:57:20 - 00:17:02:03 Rev. Brittany Right. So we take the cross and we think, Jesus, Jesus had to die. 00:17:03:14 - 00:17:24:03 Rev. Brittany And I just think that it just very interesting as you put those things together, because it does make sense. Jesus is is telling you, I'm not going to go into this system. I'm not going to behave the way that you're behaving. That's right. Yet we've become so desensitized to the act of violence, to the cross, to guns, to whatever, that we don't even realize. 00:17:24:05 - 00:17:42:22 Rev. Brittany The actual. The fullness of what is happening. Of the violence. Right. And it's not just that Jesus is, has been, is not in this text, but that Jesus will be crucified. But there are two other men who will be crucified and there are other people beyond that, that day after that day that will be crucified. 00:17:42:22 - 00:17:44:08 Rev. Trudy And yeah. 00:17:44:09 - 00:17:50:03 Rev. Brittany It's just this idea that we have, we can find ways to justify violence for our benefit. 00:17:50:04 - 00:17:51:22 Rev. Trudy We absolutely right. 00:17:51:23 - 00:17:53:14 Rev. Brittany Without our interrogating it. 00:17:53:15 - 00:18:18:02 Rev. Trudy That's right. We can justify it and and yet, if Jesus was there to fight all the wrongs of the world and to inaugurate the the Kingdom of God with all the beautiful values that we espouse, the kingdom holds, it won't come. If he participates in the system as it is. 00:18:18:02 - 00:18:18:17 Rev. Brittany Right? 00:18:18:18 - 00:18:58:07 Rev. Trudy Right. So. So him defying the violent structure and culture by being innocent, by being non combative with Pilate, I think that is what people remember when he is taken down from the cross. Right. The robbers say it. "Come on, we're guilty. He did nothing." Right. And if there's anything that's going to change the system, I think it has to come from outside the system or not participating in the system. 00:18:58:09 - 00:19:10:15 Rev. Trudy So the redemption is not complete. But that's the only thing that's going to move us closer to it is repeated acts of nonparticipation. 00:19:10:17 - 00:19:19:16 Rev. Brittany So there's a quote that just made me think that I needed to check on. And it's from Audre Lorde. And it says, "For the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house." 00:19:19:16 - 00:19:20:08 Rev. Trudy There it is. 00:19:20:11 - 00:19:41:12 Rev. Brittany Right. So like Dr. King says, "You can't use it can't be violence for violence. Right. Only love can do that. It can't be hatred for hatred. Only love can do that." And so this idea that sometimes the only tools we have are the master's tools, but we have to start to think about ways to create different tools with what we've been given, I think in the dismantling. 00:19:41:14 - 00:19:49:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. We could go on because this brings up a whole bunch of other stuff, but I think we should probably stuff now. 00:19:49:19 - 00:19:51:01 Rev. Brittany Well, that's our perspective. 00:19:51:01 - 00:19:51:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:19:51:22 - 00:20:16:19 Rev. Brittany Thanks for tuning in. There are a couple of questions that we have for you. A few, actually, is justice. That's not. The question is violence ever justified? Is violence ever justified? Second question: How do you handle your own violent impulses? Because we are human, as we saw with Jesus. And then what do you do with righteous indignation that you feel? 00:20:16:21 - 00:20:25:07 Rev. Brittany Those are the three questions. We hope that you'll join us for Convergence to continue those conversations. Or in Tapestry. See you later. 00:20:25:09 - 00:20:53:12 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org