00:00:00:10 - 00:00:30:05 Rev. Trudy Today we have a podcast takeover as I have a conversation with The Skeptic Pastor. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of perspectives. Today we are having something very special happen here and I'm so glad that you are joining us. 00:00:30:11 - 00:00:54:12 Rev. Trudy We are going to do our typical kind of exploration of the Scripture passage this week, but we also have a very special guest, and so I'm glad you're here. We are continuing in the series of what does this say about us? And we're looking at the story of Zacchaeus and realizing that we have already been given an invitation to be a part of something bigger. 00:00:54:12 - 00:01:07:16 Rev. Trudy Just as Jesus gave the invitation to Zacchaeus. And I am going to be discussing this passage with Reverend Jeremy Steele, and I am so glad, Jeremy, that you are here. Welcome. 00:01:07:18 - 00:01:09:11 Rev. Jeremy Glad to be here. 00:01:09:12 - 00:01:33:20 Rev. Trudy Good, good. I'm going to just say a little bit about you. And if I say anything wrong, just run with it. If it's complimentary. Okay. There you go. Actually, I'm impressed and so grateful that you're here. You are a United Methodist pastor, and an author, and he is an amazing digital creator. And he is known as The Skeptic Pastor. 00:01:33:21 - 00:02:03:13 Rev. Trudy We can all relate to that. I'm glad that you have claimed that title. Jeremy has spent the recent years building an online congregation of people who don't feel seen or understood by the traditional church. He brings a curious, questioning perspective to Christianity, challenging traditional interpretations of the Bible and making space for people who have doubts or who have felt excluded or hurt by religion. 00:02:03:15 - 00:02:06:13 Rev. Trudy So glad you're doing that work. I'm so glad. 00:02:06:14 - 00:02:08:03 Rev. Jeremy Thank you so much. Yeah. 00:02:08:04 - 00:02:13:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let me go ahead and read our scripture passage today. 00:02:13:12 - 00:02:33:12 Rev. Jeremy That was a nice intro. Yeah, I am a little disappointed because I did have somebody in an intro just bestow a PhD on me. Right. They call me the Reverend Doctor. And I mean, like, if that's all I have to do to get a PhD, I'm 100% alright. 00:02:33:17 - 00:02:47:17 Rev. Trudy There you go. I've had that happen to me, too. I'm surrounded by PhDs and or DMins. But yeah, I have yet to get that title. I would like to be bestowed, too. I will bestow you. You can bestow me. How's that? 00:02:47:23 - 00:02:49:17 Rev. Jeremy Great. That sounds awesome. 00:02:49:19 - 00:03:17:01 Rev. Trudy All right. That's probably a little too much, but this is our scripture passage today. Comes from the Gospel of Luke, chapter 19, verses 1-10: “Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector, and he was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short, he could not see over the crowd. 00:03:17:01 - 00:03:38:12 Rev. Trudy So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore fig tree to see him. Since Jesus was coming that way, when Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, ‘Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.’ So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly. All the people saw this and began to mutter. 00:03:38:14 - 00:04:02:11 Rev. Trudy ‘He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.’ But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, ‘Look, Lord, here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor. And if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because this man too is the son of Abraham. 00:04:02:14 - 00:04:08:23 Rev. Trudy For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.’” Zacchaeus. 00:04:09:01 - 00:04:10:23 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. That's right. Yes. 00:04:11:01 - 00:04:11:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:04:11:14 - 00:04:23:16 Rev. Jeremy You know the song about him when I was a little kid? Yeah. No, all I learned from the song was that he was short. 00:04:23:18 - 00:04:27:22 Rev. Jeremy Right? But, I mean, it's better than nothing. Right. Well. 00:04:28:00 - 00:05:03:09 Rev. Trudy There you go. That's right. Yeah. This story has some really interesting points to it. Right. I mean … and interesting details. He has given the name Zacchaeus, and that's important. He is up in the fig tree. He is short and he's wealthy. He's one of the tax collectors. Right. All of that detail. And in the traditional understanding, I think what we really latch on to with this story is sin and forgiveness. 00:05:03:11 - 00:05:21:21 Rev. Trudy And my interpretation, I think I always felt like Zacchaeus was the sinner, and I never really knew if his sin was for being short. Probably not. But it was a kind of a confusing passage. Is that kind of the interpretation you grew up with? 00:05:21:23 - 00:05:54:16 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. You know, that's definitely … so, I grew up in the Deep South evangelical world, and this very much was a salvation message, you know, a personal salvation message, sin and repentance and sort of Jesus knows, right? Jesus knows all the bad things that you've done. And I think, I don't know, for me, I don't find a lot of life in that. 00:05:54:18 - 00:06:43:12 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. And especially the thing that I struggle with all of these little, I guess, vignettes, all these little, is that we will take them and just look at them on their own, and there's nothing wrong with that. Right. But I find that when you sort of put them contextually and you see, like, where are things happening, what, you know, all of that ends up bringing—I mean, ultimately, in general, my experience is it brings a different orientation to most passages. 00:06:43:13 - 00:06:45:16 Rev. Jeremy Definitely different than I grew up with. 00:06:45:18 - 00:07:10:13 Rev. Trudy Right, right. Exactly. You know, I think about that larger context, and I think about the Gospel of Luke, famous for being, almost a liberation theologian. Right. The one that cares for the poor and really wants to portray Jesus as being the one that brings the comfort and the good news to the poor. And so, here's Zacchaeus. 00:07:10:17 - 00:07:19:06 Rev. Trudy Right. And it's really easy to be able to say, oh well he was wealthy. So of course Jesus saved him. Right. 00:07:19:11 - 00:07:21:09 Rev. Trudy He needed to be saved. Right. 00:07:21:10 - 00:07:44:22 Rev. Jeremy For sure. Well, you know, it's really interesting. So just a little bit earlier in the book, you have the rich young ruler who comes and says, like, what do I need? And he says, like Jesus says, you've got the law. And he's like, yeah, I've done all of that, which is bullshit. And then he says, okay, sell everything you have. 00:07:44:23 - 00:08:13:12 Rev. Jeremy And the guy, like, turns away, which. And so, you've got that, then you have another little piece. And then there's this like quote that sort of leads into, I feel like this story where, you know, “with man, not all things are possible, but all things are possible with God.” And then you have Zacchaeus. So, sort of as a mirror to the rich young ruler. 00:08:13:14 - 00:08:47:03 Rev. Jeremy Where I, you know, when I read the Rich Young Ruler, I read someone who is looking for someone to bless his decisions in his life, right as it exists. Yeah. And someone who does not have the ability to ... they don't have an accurate self-perception. Right. 00:08:47:05 - 00:08:47:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:08:47:21 - 00:09:03:12 Rev. Jeremy And then Jesus asks the question that I think—it's not just—I don't think Jesus is trying to guilt him. Right. 00:09:03:15 - 00:09:04:01 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:09:04:05 - 00:09:11:20 Rev. Jeremy I think this is one of those moments where it breaks things open for him. 00:09:12:02 - 00:09:12:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:12:17 - 00:09:38:10 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. Right. And he obviously knows like, well, I'm not going to do that. And he walks away. But the way that it speaks of him. It's like he comes in cocky. I'm really holy. And he leaves saying oh wow, I am not the person I thought I was. 00:09:38:12 - 00:09:39:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:39:12 - 00:09:39:20 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. 00:09:39:21 - 00:09:41:15 Rev. Trudy I think you're right. 00:09:41:17 - 00:09:42:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And then. 00:09:42:17 - 00:09:44:22 Rev. Jeremy Is sort of the opposite side of that. Right? 00:09:44:23 - 00:09:47:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. 00:09:47:10 - 00:09:52:01 Rev. Trudy Zaccheaus is wealthy like the rich man. 00:09:52:03 - 00:10:01:20 Rev. Trudy And yet, he's, I mean, I don't know, I always thought it was ridiculous that he climbed a tree. I don't know if that was like common practice. But, you know. 00:10:01:22 - 00:10:27:04 Rev. Jeremy Well, I think it is really interesting and it very much fits the setting. So, like this is in this Jericho area that was very wealthy and they were very wealthy from like figs and dates and stuff like that. And so, like, I think Josephus talks about it and talks about the like huge wealth, which means, you know, for a tax collector that skims money, that's how they make money. 00:10:27:06 - 00:10:29:04 Rev. Jeremy He's got a lot to skim, right? 00:10:29:05 - 00:10:30:11 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. 00:10:30:13 - 00:10:47:12 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. And so, I love—I know I'm not a person that wants to, like, find hidden messages. I'm not some sort of, like, Bible conspiracy theory person, but, I don't know, there's something about … 00:10:47:14 - 00:11:04:12 Rev. Jeremy just for me as a reader. I don't know if this is anything intentional from Luke. But for me, as a reader, the symbol of Zacchaeus climbing up the thing that creates the wealth in that area. 00:11:04:13 - 00:11:38:08 Rev. Jeremy Right. And he's sort of sitting or viewing from this source of wealth, not just personally, but like communally, like this is the thing that makes this area wealthy and that has made ultimately me wealthy. And he's looking for Jesus from that place, which I think is really the 180 degrees from the rich young ruler. 00:11:38:10 - 00:11:39:23 Rev. Trudy Yes, exactly. 00:11:40:01 - 00:11:52:07 Rev. Jeremy Zaccheaus is the rich young ruler. Is not looking for Jesus. He's looking for validation. For endorsement. Right. 00:11:52:09 - 00:11:52:21 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:11:52:22 - 00:12:12:05 Rev. Trudy Exactly. Yeah. I think you're spot on. I think I've always thought the rich young ruler, when Jesus tells them to sell everything and he walks away, I just picture him thinking about that forever after. Because he knew, right? He was looking for something more by even asking the question. 00:12:12:10 - 00:12:12:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:12:12:16 - 00:12:36:17 Rev. Trudy And because he knew something was missing in his life. Right. And now here's Zaccheaus who is wealthy as well and has followed the law, like the rich young – I’ll put the right word up in there – and he knows he's missing something. And he has heard about Jesus, and he does make that effort to climb there. 00:12:36:17 - 00:12:40:12 Rev. Trudy So. Exactly. The mirror opposite. 00:12:40:13 - 00:12:41:02 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:12:41:08 - 00:13:17:09 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. And I think is an interesting. Is this, like, interesting character in this culture? He's like, in a very interesting place. Right. So, in that part of the world in that time, they associated wealth and health with connection to God. Right. And if you were sick or if you were poor, it wasn't because you did something wrong, because you had sinned or your parents had sinned. 00:13:17:11 - 00:13:33:12 Rev. Jeremy And so, Zacchaeus is, he has this sort of outward sign that you would, all things being equal, people would think, oh, he is being blessed by God. He is somehow holy or whatever. 00:13:33:14 - 00:13:34:00 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:13:34:01 - 00:14:05:10 Rev. Jeremy But he is the chief tax collector. And because of the way that culture viewed the tax collectors, he's seen—and it's explicit—he is seen as a sinner, not like somebody who kind of sins, but like he is a Sinner. And so like, it's this conflicted existence of being, like, ostracized by the religious people. 00:14:05:12 - 00:14:18:05 Rev. Jeremy And at the same time, having the outward signals of connection with God. I don't know, it's just really, he's a really interesting character. 00:14:18:07 - 00:14:26:15 Rev. Trudy Well, and I find it really interesting that it's really kind of ambiguous whether or not he's a sinner at all. 00:14:26:20 - 00:14:27:19 Rev. Trudy Right. Right, right. 00:14:28:00 - 00:14:36:20 Rev. Trudy He never asks for mercy or forgiveness from Jesus. Jesus never calls him a sinner. It's assumed within the culture, right? 00:14:37:03 - 00:14:43:13 Rev. Jeremy Well, the people say it, right. He’s going [to a sinner’s house], right. So, the perception of him is that. 00:14:43:14 - 00:15:16:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And Zaccheaus in Hebrew, Zakkai, I believe is the Hebrew word for it means clean and pure. Right. So, there's this. And when Jesus comes to his house, salvation has come to his house. And he's the son of Abraham, right? I mean, all of that, that language that comes out of Jesus's mouth never says he's the one that needs to be saved. 00:15:16:22 - 00:15:17:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:15:17:10 - 00:15:33:09 Rev. Trudy It's as if he has opened his heart first by climbing up the tree to see what Jesus might have to offer him, to see what is beyond the wealth that everybody would assume is the blessing. 00:15:33:11 - 00:15:34:10 Rev. Trudy Right? Yeah. 00:15:34:12 - 00:15:36:13 Rev. Trudy And go ahead. 00:15:36:14 - 00:15:38:00 Rev. Trudy Sorry. 00:15:38:02 - 00:15:52:12 Rev. Trudy I was just going to say it challenges me when I do have a tendency to think wealth is probably bad, dirty, indicates greed. 00:15:52:18 - 00:15:53:12 Rev. Trudy You know. 00:15:53:13 - 00:16:14:11 Rev. Trudy And especially after the election. This is the morning after the midterms. You know, when we have seen money play so big a role in politics, right? I have to rethink who I call a son of Abraham or one who is saved. 00:16:14:12 - 00:16:16:02 Rev. Trudy Right? Yeah, because. 00:16:16:03 - 00:16:18:10 Rev. Trudy It could be someone like Zacchaeus. 00:16:18:12 - 00:16:37:08 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. And I, you know, going back to, you know, whether or not he was a sinner. I actually don't find very much use in the term at all, really, in the term sin at all. Because I… 00:16:37:10 - 00:17:09:12 Rev. Jeremy I don't live in a black and white world. Like, my world is not black and white. Are there things that are definitely bad and definitely good? Sure. But any given day I don't have that right. And I remember – I'm a huge fan of The West Wing – and there's a moment where, you know, President Bartlet talks about how he doesn't get to make black and white decisions. 00:17:09:16 - 00:17:23:08 Rev. Jeremy Right? He got, in that moment, he did. He's like “every other decision I make all day long is 51–49.” And for me, life is 51–49. 00:17:23:10 - 00:17:24:02 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:17:24:04 - 00:18:04:16 Rev. Jeremy And so, one of the things that I love about this story is, as contrasted with the rich young ruler, the rich young ruler has to be told, exposed, whatever, right. He is not engaged with Jesus, engaged with God, whatever. In a way that is informing his life. But then Zacchaeus, he does not have to be told, right? 00:18:04:21 - 00:18:38:16 Rev. Jeremy It is just this response from being in the presence of Jesus, where he clearly realizes there is a wrong that he has, that he needs to right. There is injustice that have been done at his hand. And he does. He takes action. And so, I could give a shit about whether he's a sinner or not technically like because 00:18:38:18 - 00:19:06:21 Rev. Jeremy everybody is and nobody is. But the spiritual life is engaging with the Divine in a way that helps us become the best version of ourselves and create the best version of the world that we exist in. And I think that's the real thing that you see in Zacchaeus. There is no altar call. There's no person naming all of the things. 00:19:07:02 - 00:19:21:14 Rev. Jeremy It is just an experience with the Divine that pulls him into a better place, into a better way of life. 00:19:21:16 - 00:19:22:18 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah. 00:19:22:19 - 00:19:47:12 Rev. Trudy I think that's beautiful. And I am with you on that. I think most people, you know, agonize over decisions one way or the other. And it's just not that significant, you know? And we are 49–51 on any given day. And we have done things that we'll never know the repercussions of. They could be horrible. 00:19:47:13 - 00:20:16:03 Rev. Trudy And yet, and that's all of us. And so, this idea that Jesus, you know, speaks to Zacchaeus and invites the crowd to understand him differently to is another encounter of the Divine right? Yeah. Yeah. Because I, you know, Jesus came for everybody, right? That thinking about just the “who's in and who's out” 00:20:16:04 - 00:20:32:00 Rev. Trudy nature of the sin language. Yeah, it's a difficult topic to reform. Yeah, yeah. Don't you think? Yeah. 00:20:32:04 - 00:21:03:05 Rev. Jeremy Yeah, I think that sin is so—well, so I just speak for myself growing up with my history. The word sin is such a big … has so much wrapped around it. So much guilt, so much shame. It has for me this association with 00:21:03:07 - 00:21:49:01 Rev. Jeremy an inherited belief that the external judgment of like what is right and wrong, it's not me to judge, as some pastor that's going to tell me. And that like if you sin, sin is what leads to hell. Right. You know, eternal conscience. Like sin is just this like massive ball of like, knotted up religious trauma and weirdness. And it's, and I just feel like really for me, and what I so I work with people who have religious trauma who have been screwed over by the church and many of whom, like Christianity, is not accessible to them anymore because of the trauma, but they're still interested in God. 00:21:49:03 - 00:22:15:11 Rev. Jeremy And when we talk, one of the things is that I say, like, look, we don't need to deal with all of that baggage and complication with sin. Like, really, it is like we are living a life and God wants us to be the best version of ourselves, to have a purpose greater than ourselves. 00:22:15:12 - 00:22:35:05 Rev. Jeremy And to make the world better because of our existence. And sometimes we do a good job with that. Sometimes we get off track and that's fine. Everybody does that. I did that like ten minutes ago. But it's not that. It's not a big deal. Like, yeah, you got off track. You correct. 00:22:35:06 - 00:22:58:18 Rev. Jeremy Now some of the course corrections have to be bigger. Sometimes we get off track, and we had in a direction for a long time. That's the wrong direction. But it's not some earth-shattering cosmic devastation. It's life. It's being human and yeah. 00:22:58:20 - 00:23:04:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. You know, I don't know if you've made this connection, but, 00:23:04:12 - 00:23:09:12 Rev. Jeremy Also, I'm going to hell for saying that. Let's just be clear. Like, I'm 100% going to hell. 00:23:09:12 - 00:23:13:00 Rev. Trudy I know for sure. I know for sure you're a sinner. Okay. 00:23:13:05 - 00:23:21:23 Rev. Jeremy I'm a heretic. And that has been. I'm certified by 20 or 30 commenters every day. Yeah. Sorry. But I own that. 00:23:22:00 - 00:23:25:12 Rev. Trudy Right, right. No, no. 00:23:25:14 - 00:23:47:21 Rev. Trudy That's right, that's right. Yeah, I get the “you're a woman. You should be not saying a thing,” right? So yeah, yeah, yeah. That's where sin language gets us. I don't know if you have made this connection, but I certainly see what you're doing. I see some parallels in the Zacchaeus story. Yeah. For sure. You know for sure. 00:23:47:22 - 00:24:12:06 Rev. Trudy Right. That is one who's eager to have this encounter with the Divine and is willing to reform some of what might be needed to be reformed and willing to accept the challenge because he knows it's going to be worth the journey. And then you got the crowd, they're all saying, oh yeah, but you shouldn't be talking to him right. 00:24:12:10 - 00:24:41:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. How many times have you heard, Jeremy, that you really need to be in a big church to suit the crowd? That is easy to say, you know, to point out who's the sinner and who's not. When you broke away and went out to find the people who are lurking in the streets wondering, where on earth is God and why can't I find him or her? 00:24:41:08 - 00:25:18:16 Rev. Jeremy Yeah, I man, it's such an interesting story. Because I've worked in ministry, in megachurches, in normal churches, in the Deep South, in Silicon Valley, and in DC. And I've always been very open about my skepticism. My, you know, I'm never 100% sure if God exists. Some days that I'm more in some days than I'm less. 00:25:18:18 - 00:25:56:12 Rev. Jeremy But, and so, it means it like for really my having been being paid to be a professional Christian for 28 years, and I've always had this connection with this sort of group of people that are like me. And so, in some ways what I'm doing is not that different. 00:25:56:13 - 00:26:24:13 Rev. Jeremy Also, I don't have a lot of Christian friends. I find Christian people to be weird in general. But, and so, I've always had like a bunch of atheist friends and all of those kinds of things. But what happened was—the short version of the story is that my undergrad is in communication, I was asked to do a an article around how churches can use TikTok. 00:26:24:15 - 00:26:47:23 Rev. Jeremy So, I spent a month paying attention to it, trying to understand why this New York Times bestselling author has nobody. And this person I've never heard of has millions of people. Yeah. And so, my plan was to test my hypothesis, release ten pieces of content, and write my article, get my check, and move on to the next thing. 00:26:48:01 - 00:27:13:11 Rev. Jeremy And one of the really important things that when I do consulting for social media, for companies and nonprofits and advocacy groups, and individuals, one of the things that we start with is like, there's got to be something very unique about you, something that when people find it out there like, “That's interesting.” Yeah. 00:27:13:12 - 00:27:47:09 Rev. Jeremy Right. And my experience is everybody has that, right. And so, for me, being a pastor who is not sure if God exists, who is a skeptic, that I was like, that's whenever somebody finds that out about me, they're always curious. So that was the part of myself that I chose to share. And I released the first piece of content, and I had 1500 followers that day, and 10,000 was very close behind. 00:27:47:10 - 00:28:31:16 Rev. Jeremy And what happened was, there are people all over the place who either have left church or live in this isolated community or family system or whatever and have not had access to a pastor who's not sure about God, a pastor who is queer. Any of these things. And so, when the algorithm brings my content to them ... 00:28:31:18 - 00:29:12:12 Rev. Jeremy It's for a lot of them, it's like the first time they've heard that. And it's, I feel like in some sense, it's like a Zacchaeus. It's like this, like, resonant with their soul. I remember, within the… I think it was the first month, I got wild direct messages every single day. And this young adult reached out to me and he said, “when I came out to my parents, they told me that I was going to hell and I believed them.” 00:29:12:14 - 00:29:47:04 Rev. Jeremy “And I've been watching your videos, and I'm starting to think that they might be wrong. And I'm wondering how I can get back with God.” But that's every single day, right? Yeah. You know, 10 to 50 direct messages, thousands of comments, and eventually people began asking for a community where the sort of regulars in my comments could be together. 00:29:47:04 - 00:30:07:17 Rev. Jeremy And so, I sent the leadership over me and my denomination, a message telling them what's been going on and saying, I think unbeknownst to me, God has been forming a church. 00:30:07:19 - 00:30:39:10 Rev. Jeremy I love—and they said, okay. And I said, but it'll take more time. So, they gave me like a quarter of my time to use towards this. And now it's my full-time job. And this community, we call it Not Church. It's full of people of all kinds of religious identities and non-identities. Like any religious stream you can imagine, like it's we're all there together. 00:30:39:12 - 00:31:19:04 Rev. Jeremy Most everybody has been deeply, deeply hurt by the church. A lot of conversations start with “I'm never going back to church. So don't try to get me to do that. But I do want a spiritual community.” And so, we all are there exploring spirituality together. And the reason it's called Not Church is because early on, somebody said “it's like all of the things that I miss from church, talking about spiritual things and morality and sharing my life with people who have similar values.” 00:31:19:07 - 00:31:35:09 Rev. Jeremy “And when things get really bad, when I'm sick, people being honestly there for me, except nobody's telling me I'm going to hell because I've got a tarot deck on my bedside table. And so, it's not church.” 00:31:35:13 - 00:32:06:13 Rev. Trudy Not Church. Yeah. Yeah. Oh gosh. Jeremy, there's so many things I would love to ask you. We probably taken up more than enough of your time, but I do want to say that we have, at this church, First Church, we've tried to create a digital presence for us, doing something similar. And we do find people that will find us on our podcast, and will come to see how the church really is expecting it to be different. 00:32:06:15 - 00:32:40:02 Rev. Trudy And I've been grateful that we've also been able to change the culture of the church so that it is welcoming and such. But, I mean, there's a place for so much more of that and we could do more. And just watching you be one of those leaders that are out there in that digital space and the way in which you have been able to be called by a denomination to do this work, makes me feel so much better about where we could be going. 00:32:40:03 - 00:32:59:23 Rev. Trudy And to be clear, it is in that more mysterious kind of spirituality that can't be contained in any religion or denomination but could only be glimpsed as you encounter a Divine. You know, however, that might be even in the sycamore tree. Right? 00:33:00:01 - 00:33:00:22 Rev. Jeremy Yeah. Right. 00:33:00:23 - 00:33:07:01 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah. Yeah. This has been so wonderful. Thank you so much for spending some time with us. 00:33:07:02 - 00:33:13:15 Rev. Jeremy Thank you. It was great to get to be together and talk about Zacchaeus and all the crazy shit in the Bible. 00:33:13:17 - 00:33:20:17 Rev. Trudy That's right, that's right. There's a lot there. There's a lot there. Keep doing what you're doing and let's stay in touch. 00:33:20:19 - 00:33:22:06 Rev. Jeremy Yeah, absolutely. 00:33:22:08 - 00:33:51:23 Rev. Trudy Thank you so much. I am very grateful for the conversation that we had with Jeremy Steele. I know that there are plenty of questions that come to your mind. Run with them, talk to others about them. And if you want to know more about Jeremy Steele, you can find him in very many places. If you just Google “Skeptic Pastor.” And if you want to be a part of his community, you can join at Patreon.com/SkepticPastor. 00:33:52:01 - 00:34:12:06 Rev. Trudy Thank you for joining us. We'll see you next time. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.