00:00:00:06 - 00:00:16:00 Rev. Trudy What do you do when you are stuck in an impossible situation with no end in sight? If you're like my colleague Hannah Ka or if you're like the lesser-known prophet Habakkuk, you might say, "How long, O Lord? 00:00:16:00 - 00:00:17:22 Rev. Trudy How long?" 00:00:18:00 - 00:00:53:01 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Thank you for joining us for this Perspectives episode. We are glad that you are here. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson, and this is Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. We are in conversation today continuing our series on the fact that God is still speaking and we're trying to figure out how to listen in a noisy world. 00:00:53:03 - 00:01:18:18 Rev. Trudy And today we're thinking about the long silence that can happen, especially as Habakkuk has experienced it. Habakkuk, one of those tiny little books of the Bible. One of the minor prophets. And that's our scripture. We're going to pick a couple of verses out of the first chapter and a couple out of the second, and you'll be able to hear all about Habakkuk. 00:01:18:18 - 00:01:48:04 Rev. Trudy I'm pretty sure it's four short chapters, so let's just dig in. This is what Habakkuk says: "The oracle that Habakkuk the prophet saw: Lord, how long will I call for help and you not listen? I cry out to you, violence, but you don't deliver us. Why do you show me injustice and look at anguish, so that the devastation and the violence are before me? 00:01:48:06 - 00:02:15:15 Rev. Trudy There is strife and conflict abounds. The instruction is ineffective. Justice does not endure because the wicked surround the righteous. Justice becomes warped. Then the Lord answered me and said, ‘Write a vision and make it plain upon the tablets so that a runner can read it. There is still a vision for the appointed time. It testifies to the end. 00:02:15:15 - 00:02:32:14 Rev. Trudy It does not deceive. If it delays, wait for it, for it is surely coming. It will not be late.’" There's a lot in there. Yes, a lot in there. Sounds pretty wise to me if we can figure it all out. 00:02:32:17 - 00:03:04:20 Rev. Hannah Yes. And this is one of the most quoted line by Hannah Ka: “How long? Oh, God. How long? How long?” Whenever I am frustrated. “How long?” Yeah. That's an expression of our frustration. Lots of anger. And in this short four chapters and nothing much is known about Habakkuk. Yeah. No family lineage, no hometown, and no clear call story in these short four chapters. 00:03:04:20 - 00:03:06:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But yes. And a lot to say. 00:03:06:15 - 00:03:09:17 Rev. Hannah Yes. So, we get to see his inner world though. 00:03:09:19 - 00:03:10:10 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:03:10:12 - 00:03:19:08 Rev. Hannah About his struggles and yeah, nothing is known about his time. 00:03:19:10 - 00:03:52:16 Rev. Hannah But scholars say that he lived around … well, he worked around seven centuries before the common era. And remembering the fall of Judah. Right? Right. Five 597. Before the common era, the first round of people were taken to Babylon, and then ten years later, another round and until they fell. So, this was really close to the fall of Judah. 00:03:52:18 - 00:03:55:00 Rev. Hannah Yeah. So, I'm learning. All right. 00:03:55:05 - 00:03:56:10 Rev. Trudy There you go. Yeah. 00:03:56:10 - 00:04:00:12 Rev. Hannah Prophets were living in a horrible time. 00:04:00:14 - 00:04:03:16 Rev. Trudy And that's a perfect time for prophets. Right> 00:04:03:18 - 00:04:04:18 Rev. Hannah There are national crises. 00:04:04:18 - 00:04:07:17 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:04:07:19 - 00:04:28:03 Rev. Hannah And instead of speaking to people. Yes, he was speaking to God. Yeah. So, he's unique. He's different from the rest of the prophets. He wasn't delivering God's story to people. He was bringing people's pain to God's attention. 00:04:28:03 - 00:04:53:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. Habakkuk: “How long, Oh Lord? How long?” I understand that's a signal, for a particular genre. Right. The lament. The deep anguish of what you're experiencing, kind of like, you know, “once upon a time,” you know, that's a story for children, right? 00:04:53:11 - 00:05:18:22 Rev. Trudy “How long? Oh, Lord.” Yeah. Don't let children hear this one. Right? Yes. And I love that he is addressing God. It's the first two chapters are this conversation between Habakkuk and God. And then Habakkuk, he is telling God how he feels. Right. This is about, we want to know, why you haven't acted, God. 00:05:19:00 - 00:05:44:13 Rev. Trudy And actually, we think it's well over time that you should have. Right. So, it's accusatory almost. Right. Yeah. And God responds and God responds with an answer, and actually it does nothing to alleviate Habakkuk anguish because it's just more bad news. 00:05:44:13 - 00:05:46:08 Rev. Hannah More violence coming from bad. 00:05:46:10 - 00:06:03:04 Rev. Trudy Exactly, exactly. You're not done yet. I know you're experiencing all this horrible stuff, and you want to hear from me. Okay, here, here's what I have to say. More is coming. Right. And Habakkuk, it's like, well, wait a second, maybe I'll roll that back. 00:06:03:04 - 00:06:04:00 Rev. Trudy A little bit. 00:06:04:01 - 00:06:35:01 Rev. Trudy If that's what you got. Right. Gosh. But how often do we find ourselves in the middle of some horrible situation and we are wanting so much for relief. And it doesn't come right away. You know, it took a while. Mostly I would say for us to get to this horrible situation and it's going to take a while for us to get out of the horrible situation. 00:06:35:01 - 00:06:35:12 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:06:35:15 - 00:06:47:15 Rev. Hannah And the answers or the solutions do not seem to be elevating those issues. And yeah, I would rather not have those answers. That doesn't help me. Right? 00:06:47:15 - 00:06:48:02 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:06:48:02 - 00:07:24:23 Rev. Hannah And also, God is awfully silent. Or when God moves in this book, in this lament. Yeah, it's not to people's favor. Right. So, what do we do when that kind of things happen with God? Right. And as I look into the hurt of Habakkuk and his inner space. I see his expressions of anguish and angry anger and frustration in those situations that's beyond his control. 00:07:25:04 - 00:07:40:05 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And I see that maybe lament is an expression of faith. Instead of quitting on God, he's engaging in that conversation. Absolutely. 00:07:40:05 - 00:07:41:10 Rev. Trudy And yeah. Yeah. 00:07:41:13 - 00:07:56:21 Rev. Hannah Through that engagement in that conversation, he's actually finding faith in the ground of God. Yeah. So maybe faith is not always, “yes!” It's also “how dare you, God.” 00:07:57:00 - 00:08:32:19 Rev. Trudy Oh. Now you're going to ruffle some feathers right now, you know. Right. But I agree with you. 1,000%. I think it's a beautiful illustration of the way we can be honest with God, with whatever it is. Habakkuk continues to talk with God. And I find a couple of things interesting in that. I think that Habakkuk, it’s later in chapter one, as he's talking to God about what's happening and God responds, and he seems to question God's character. 00:08:32:21 - 00:09:03:08 Rev. Trudy Right. Yes. In verse 13 of chapter 1, he says, “you who have purer eyes, you see evil and you can't look on perversity. So why are you, why are you having this in front of you? Why don't you do something? Why can't you, swallow up the wicked.” You know. And I find that's a really interesting and hard thing to say, right? 00:09:03:10 - 00:09:13:05 Rev. Trudy Because I think there is a part of us that we are firmly convinced that we know what is righteous. 00:09:13:06 - 00:09:15:13 Rev. Trudy And it's not what “they're” doing. 00:09:15:15 - 00:09:18:18 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Right. Yes. Right. 00:09:18:20 - 00:09:24:06 Rev. Trudy And to and to say “God, how on earth are you letting them get away with it.” Yes. 00:09:24:07 - 00:09:30:00 Rev. Hannah As if we know that for sure that we are in agreement with God. 00:09:30:02 - 00:09:58:06 Rev. Trudy Right, right. And I think that's the other thing that I noticed in this conversation when God responds to “write a vision.” He then says there is still a vision for the appointed time. So, I hear a distinction between God asking Habakkuk to write a vision. And what God has as a vision for the appointed time. 00:09:58:12 - 00:10:19:12 Rev. Trudy Right? Yes. Right. And we can do that. Right. Right. Now we want all sorts of things for our world right now. Right. All sorts of things that we think, oh, that's the righteous past. That's what will make everything better. That's what will take away our lament. 00:10:19:14 - 00:10:28:20 Rev. Trudy And God says, “Ooooh …. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe this one, this vision that I have for the appointed time.” 00:10:28:22 - 00:10:32:19 Rev. Trudy You're going to be surprised. Yes. Right. 00:10:32:21 - 00:10:53:16 Rev. Hannah Yes. And leaving some room for that. And for room for anger and dislike. Disagreement and confusion. Yeah. A lack of clarity might be part of what we are getting out of this text that yes, that can be part of our relationship with God. 00:10:53:18 - 00:10:56:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. It really stretches us in that way. 00:10:56:18 - 00:10:58:06 Rev. Hannah It challenges our certainty. 00:10:58:10 - 00:11:14:08 Rev. Trudy But it sure does what we know exactly. It sure does, because there's not a happy ending in sight. And, you know, as you said, Habakkuk is writing, you know, really as that is just beginning the, the conquest and the exile. 00:11:14:08 - 00:11:15:12 Rev. Hannah The worst hasn't come. 00:11:15:12 - 00:11:19:10 Rev. Trudy The worst has not come and it will be generations 00:11:19:12 - 00:11:42:07 Rev. Trudy before they begin to nurture something different. And so even whatever back to the point that I just made, Habakkuk might have had an idea of what he wanted to have happen as his vision for everything to be better, but you know after generations that's going to look different. And God knows. And God will get us there. 00:11:42:08 - 00:12:04:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Right. So, in the meantime, we're stuck in this middle ground. We're stuck in this space where we are lamenting and everything's changing and it's not going to get better. And God has told us it's not going to get better. And yet God is still with us and we have to wait for that appointed time. And so how on earth do we relate? 00:12:04:14 - 00:12:11:13 Rev. Trudy In this space, how does our faith work. In that space. Yes. Right. 00:12:11:15 - 00:12:22:16 Rev. Hannah And we are not covering a chapter two, verse one. But I found that very interesting that he says “I will stand at my watch post.” 00:12:22:18 - 00:12:29:05 Rev. Trudy That's God saying no to Habakkuk. That's good. Okay. Oh have to watch. Yeah. I got my eyes on you, God! 00:12:29:05 - 00:12:40:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And after arguing with God in chapter one, that's what he says. “And I'll stand at my watch post and watch to see what God will say to me.” Okay. And that's when God has me. 00:12:40:14 - 00:12:43:14 Rev. Trudy Good God. Yeah. Got my eyes. 00:12:43:16 - 00:12:56:02 Rev. Hannah But sorry we didn't read that. But as I reflect on that, one short verse that wasn't included, I was thinking about a pasture of his. 00:12:56:02 - 00:12:57:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:12:57:12 - 00:13:17:22 Rev. Hannah Posture of attentiveness. Okay. And if it's what, you know, for God there you go. Yeah. You're right looking. Yeah. What you do for what you do. So maybe. Yeah. Listening includes being attentive to God. 00:13:18:00 - 00:13:20:08 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:13:20:08 - 00:13:38:11 Rev. Hannah Yeah. He didn't run away. He in the midst of uncertainty in the midst of not having the right answer that he was expecting and he wasn't pretending that everything made sense. But he stayed in that relationship still watching. 00:13:38:11 - 00:13:51:10 Rev. Trudy Still watching. Yeah. Yeah. And that's really all you can do when you're in the world and everything's changing. Right. And eventually he gets there. 00:13:51:12 - 00:13:52:14 Rev. Hannah He does. Yeah. 00:13:52:15 - 00:14:21:18 Rev. Trudy He gets there. And before we get to that part of it, I read in one of the commentaries, kind of a redefinition of the word righteous. We tend to think righteous is moral. Right. But it this commentary said that first and foremost, righteous is a relational term. 00:14:21:20 - 00:14:36:01 Rev. Trudy Right. So, the righteous are those who are dependent on God no matter what. Right. So not necessarily moral or ethical issues but the dependency of God. It's the foundation. 00:14:36:03 - 00:14:37:13 Rev. Hannah Right. Or of faithfulness. 00:14:37:13 - 00:15:08:11 Rev. Trudy For a faithfulness. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And yeah. And, this commentary had just said the wicked, they don't have that dependency of God. They are going to depend on something else. And so, they don't feel obligated to obey the laws of God or to behave in that moral way. But again, that dependency is the foundation of it. 00:15:08:16 - 00:15:33:18 Rev. Trudy And the wicked are the ones who violate all of that. And in this, that the very beginning of this passage that we read, it talks about the justice being warped. And so, that relationship of dependency, that is the outcome of the morality of justice was broken, was broken at that at that point. And right. 00:15:33:20 - 00:16:03:07 Rev. Trudy And I thought about, you know, what does it mean, to be dependent on God. Right. And we talk about righteousness and the dependency of God. We talk about that in covenantal language. Right. We talk about, you know, we are bound together by the agreement that our ancestors made. And that puts us in relationship like it or not. 00:16:03:09 - 00:16:13:00 Rev. Hannah Right. Yes. Always. It's not going to be beautiful all the time. 00:16:13:01 - 00:16:42:04 Rev. Trudy That's right. And that's typical. Right. Right. And I think about that relationship that is not that is not easy. But you're stuck with it. Right. And that's really what it is between the Babylonians and Judah. It between you know, all our our enemies today and ourselves. Right. We are stuck together as one human humankind on one earth. 00:16:42:06 - 00:16:51:08 Rev. Trudy And we gotta figure it out. And my narrow view of what is righteous and what I want God to do is not going to be good enough. 00:16:51:10 - 00:16:54:00 Rev. Hannah Or is not going to be what God wants us to. 00:16:54:00 - 00:17:16:12 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. So, the vision for an appointed time is very different. I think there's another thing about that covenantal idea of righteousness. I know in the Old Testament the covenant was with the Torah as well, and the righteousness, you know, that dependency on God. But that manifested in the law. 00:17:16:14 - 00:17:48:18 Rev. Trudy And it was kind of this covenant, this relationship with God and humanity that had that required, behavior from humans and presence from God. Right. Yes. And then I think about our Christian faith. That says Jesus came in communion holds up a cup of the new covenant poured in my blood. And the covenantal relationship then is connected with the crucifixion and the resurrection. 00:17:48:20 - 00:18:10:01 Rev. Trudy Right. And it seems to me that shift from behavior to presence to the worst of human behavior and crucifixion, the worst of what we could do to one another and the absolute impossible performance of what God can do with it. Yes. 00:18:10:05 - 00:18:11:13 Rev. Hannah Grace. 00:18:11:15 - 00:18:21:17 Rev. Trudy Grace. New life. Resurrection. All of that stuff, which I think really speaks to what Habakkuk is really wanting. 00:18:21:18 - 00:18:22:07 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:18:22:10 - 00:18:27:14 Rev. Trudy And what he is lamenting that isn't there. Right. Did that make any sense at all? 00:18:27:15 - 00:18:32:16 Rev. Hannah You did. And you, you're at that saying something really profound. And I didn't want to interrupt your flow. 00:18:32:18 - 00:18:35:08 Rev. Trudy Oh yeah. I have lost that I'm quite sure. 00:18:35:09 - 00:19:09:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And so there are differences between us and people we think are different. Yeah. There are differences. We live in between the world, in between God's promise, and God's fulfillment. Yeah. We don't know which part of that spectrum will be in. Yeah. That long history will. We live in between what should it be and what is and what are what we are asking for and what God is providing for us? 00:19:09:15 - 00:19:10:06 Rev. Hannah That's right. 00:19:10:12 - 00:19:32:12 Rev. Trudy And people of faith all over the world find themselves in different spaces. And that. Right? I'm thinking, okay, I don't have any laments right now. That's really good, right? But there are others that are seeing a different reality. And so, at any given time we share those spaces. And move from one to another and all across the spectrum. 00:19:32:12 - 00:19:52:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. And all we can do during that time may be waiting. Yeah. In silence. Yeah. And watching and being attentive to what's happening around us. That's right. And what God may be. That's right. Seeing differently from what we do. Exactly. But still stay engaged. 00:19:52:02 - 00:20:07:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's where that vision that God tells Habakkuk to have. Write a vision. You see something. Well, what can you do about that in this time and moment. But there's a difference between what you can do and what God will do. Right. Yes. Yeah. 00:20:07:23 - 00:20:09:07 Rev. Hannah There is that humility. 00:20:09:07 - 00:20:40:05 Rev. Trudy That's right. That humility. And that's really where Habakkuk arrives. At the end, at the end of the book. Right. He arrives at the idea. Let's see, in chapter three. He says, he expresses faith in God even though he doesn't really get it right. But he says, “for though the fig tree doesn't flourish, nor fruit beyond in the vines, the labor of the olive fails. 00:20:40:05 - 00:21:11:01 Rev. Trudy The fields yield no food.” This is pretty horrible stuff. “The flocks are cut off from the fold and there is no herd in the stalls yet. I will rejoice in Yahweh. I will be joyful in the God of my salvation.” So, he has found a way in that in-between time, where all you can do is watch and be attentive and try to make it through the silence, knowing that there will be a time. 00:21:11:03 - 00:21:17:14 Rev. Trudy He has found a way to be dependent on God. Yes. And not ask anything of God? 00:21:17:16 - 00:21:32:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. But still continue to be in God's presence. That's right. Still communicating and conversing with. That's right. That's even if. Yes, his request is not granted. Yeah. Even if he doesn't understand what God is doing. 00:21:32:13 - 00:21:41:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And really, how arrogant of us to think that we can understand what God is doing. The fullness. 00:21:41:13 - 00:21:45:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. Right. That has been the arrogance of Christian tradition. 00:21:45:05 - 00:21:45:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:46:00 - 00:21:48:09 Rev. Hannah Knowing that we have the right. Well. 00:21:48:11 - 00:22:29:12 Rev. Trudy Well, there you go. You're absolutely right. This—sorry—this conclusion of utter faith is what Martin Luther, read and saw as his justification for faith alone. Is what saves us. Right? Yes. I never understood that connection. Never knew that connection. And when you think about it, in the context of the faith needed, when there is such horrible lamenting going on and there is generations yet to come—to have faith be the only thing that will save you. 00:22:29:13 - 00:22:31:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:22:31:02 - 00:22:33:04 Rev. Trudy That's pretty beautiful. 00:22:33:06 - 00:22:34:08 Rev. Trudy Yes. And tricky. 00:22:34:13 - 00:22:40:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yeah. Because people can have different definitions of faith and faithfulness. Yeah. 00:22:40:14 - 00:23:08:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Exactly. And so, I'm going to hang on to this idea, the faithfulness of being in relationship, the faithfulness that the righteousness is, is really about that covenantal, conviction. That, things will be horrible and God will be there. Period. Yes. And wait for the vision. Yes. That is God's at the appointed time. How long? 00:23:08:13 - 00:23:09:05 Rev. Trudy How long? 00:23:09:05 - 00:23:12:01 Rev. Hannah I don't know how long. You know. 00:23:12:03 - 00:23:15:00 Rev. Trudy Can I mark it on the calendar somewhere? At least? 00:23:15:02 - 00:23:19:17 Rev. Hannah Probably not. Right. To different generations, maybe beyond our time. 00:23:19:17 - 00:23:20:19 Rev. Trudy That's for sure. 00:23:21:01 - 00:23:25:09 Rev. Hannah Oh my goodness. And who knew? Little Habakkuk. 00:23:25:11 - 00:23:30:07 Rev. Trudy I call them little because it's only four chapters. Who knew there was such richness in this? 00:23:30:09 - 00:23:50:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. That's pretty awesome. Thank you. Reverend Trudy Robinson I enjoy having theological conversations around this text. And I get excited when you get excited if I remain too quiet. Forgive me. 00:23:50:20 - 00:23:55:14 Rev. Trudy No. You make no regret. Wonderful. I always enjoy talking with you, thinking like whether you're sugared up or not. 00:23:55:17 - 00:24:02:19 Rev. Hannah Okay. Our listeners, I just want to tell you that I didn't have any sugar before today. Yeah. 00:24:02:20 - 00:24:04:12 Rev. Trudy There you go. No Smarties! No Smarties! 00:24:09:18 - 00:24:15:23 Rev. Trudy I think it proves that you can survive without them. Okay. Because you're very smart and very engaging anyway, so. Thank you. 00:24:16:00 - 00:24:47:12 Rev. Hannah A little juice? Yeah. All right. I enjoyed our conversation, and I hope that our listeners can enjoy their conversations with others around them. So here are some questions for you to ponder upon: Can arguing with God be an act of faith? If so, have you ever? And: What do we do with God's silence? Yeah. Do you love God or do you love the blessings of God? 00:24:47:12 - 00:24:58:07 Rev. Hannah You like? So these are the questions that you can have conversations. Thanks for listening. We hope to see you next time. 00:24:58:09 - 00:25:15:13 Rev. Trudy Bye. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit a fumcsd.org