00:00:00:10 - 00:00:06:04 Rev. Hannah Are the shadows of life dimming our expectations for divine encounters? 00:00:06:06 - 00:00:19:23 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:20:01 - 00:00:58:21 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah. I'm here with Reverend Brittany in the studio, and we are continuing our conversation about how God is Still speaking. Thanks for choosing a wonderful series. And today we are going to talk about Isaiah's call. And this is how the story goes in Isaiah 6:1-8: “In the year of King Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, the edges of his robe filling the temple. 00:00:58:23 - 00:01:29:00 Rev. Hannah Winged creatures were stationed around him. Each had six wings: with two they veiled their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they flew about. They shouted to each other, saying, ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of heavenly forces. All the earth is filled with God's glory.’ The doorframe shook at the sound of their shouting, and the house was filled with smoke. 00:01:29:02 - 00:01:59:15 Rev. Hannah I said, ‘Woe is me! I’m ruined. I'm a man with unclean lips, and I live among a people with unclean lips. Yet I have seen the King, the Lord of heavenly forces.’ Then one of the winged creatures flew to me, holding a glowing coal that he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth and said, ‘See, this has touched your lips.’ 00:01:59:21 - 00:02:24:14 Rev. Hannah ‘Your guilt has departed, and your sin is removed.’ Then I heard the Lord's voice saying, ‘Whom should I send, and who will go for us?’ I said, ‘I am here. Send me.’” 00:02:24:16 - 00:02:49:00 Rev. Brittany Isaiah! Isaiah! It's pretty … Reverend Hannah, in the beginning of the first sentence that you read—“In the year of King Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and exalted throne, and the edges of his robe filling the temple”—I found that interesting, so I had to figure out what was going on and who King Uzziah was, because I had forgotten a bit about who he was. Apparently, he was a decent king. 00:02:49:02 - 00:02:58:13 Rev. Brittany He kept the kingdom pretty stable. People were thriving financially, right? I don't think I'm making that up? 00:02:58:15 - 00:03:21:01 Rev. Hannah It was pretty good around 740 before the Common Era. And the Kingdom of Judah was still stable, but there were some forces coming their way. The political situation was shifting, different powers were rising, and the kingdom of Assyria was on the rise. 00:03:21:05 - 00:03:22:10 Rev. Brittany Yeah, they were coming. 00:03:22:12 - 00:03:23:22 Rev. Hannah There were some threats. 00:03:24:02 - 00:03:24:21 Rev. Brittany For sure. 00:03:24:23 - 00:03:29:09 Rev. Hannah From the outside. But he was a decent king, like you said. 00:03:29:12 - 00:03:30:10 Rev. Brittany He was decent. 00:03:30:12 - 00:03:33:10 Rev. Hannah Probably the last decent king. 00:03:33:11 - 00:03:34:00 Rev. Brittany Right. [laughter] 00:03:34:04 - 00:03:45:17 Rev. Hannah It was around the time this king died. People could hear, “Oh, things are going to go bad.” 00:03:45:19 - 00:03:46:15 Rev. Brittany Oh, yeah. 00:03:46:17 - 00:03:49:11 Rev. Hannah And that's the time of his call. 00:03:49:13 - 00:03:54:06 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Uzziah, I guess he represented for them … 00:03:54:08 - 00:03:55:04 Rev. Hannah The last good king! 00:03:55:04 - 00:04:26:00 Rev. Brittany The last good king, right? Anytime someone who has created stability and a sense of decency—even though they were doing things that weren't totally on the right path and weren't following God's justice as well as they should have at this time—anytime someone dies, moves, or whatever, there's a shift, and people start to become afraid about what is to come. 00:04:26:01 - 00:04:34:09 Rev. Hannah He was being called during this time of uncertainty. 00:04:34:11 - 00:04:45:22 Rev. Brittany It's also interesting that Uzziah is dead and now the Lord is sitting on a throne, right? There's a juxtaposition between an earthly king to a heavenly one. 00:04:45:23 - 00:04:58:06 Rev. Hannah Yes. They were also beginning to imagine the heavenly king on an earthly king's throne. The image was shaped by what they had seen. 00:04:58:07 - 00:04:59:10 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:04:59:12 - 00:05:04:13 Rev. Hannah There were two kingdoms here, and one was about to fall. 00:05:04:19 - 00:05:05:14 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:05:05:16 - 00:05:11:01 Rev. Hannah And there was a call from the other one. 00:05:11:03 - 00:05:41:19 Rev. Hannah It's a very dramatic call story. Compared to the call of Samuel in your sermon last week, which happened in the night like a whisper when no one was around, this was happening in a public space—or rather, a sacred space—with all those mysterious and unusual things happening. 00:05:41:21 - 00:05:43:18 Rev. Hannah Unusual things happening. 00:05:43:19 - 00:05:58:18 Rev. Brittany Oh, yeah. Seraphim would be terrifying to see in real life. Are you kidding? Six wings—like, are you joking? Two covered their faces, two their feet, and then they flew about, honey. What? I would be terrified. 00:05:58:19 - 00:06:01:01 Rev. Hannah Yes. This was before the AI era. 00:06:01:02 - 00:06:06:23 Rev. Brittany Right. Now I feel like I can imagine an angel, but okay. 00:06:07:05 - 00:06:38:13 Rev. Hannah The seraphim proclaiming God's holiness must have carried some sacredness. But scary? Yes. Then the doorframe shakes, and they see holy smoke in the temple, right? Think about the movement, the shaking. It's like you're experiencing the danger and fear with all five—or six—senses. 00:06:38:15 - 00:07:02:05 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I really think sometimes that when we're going to hear the voice of God, or we have encountered the voice of God, or we think we're encountering it, we just assume that it's not going to be frightening. I think it can be both beautiful and terrifying. 00:07:02:07 - 00:07:21:21 Rev. Hannah Yes. I wouldn't have minded being called if the world was going well and I was going to take care of the people, right? But not amid crises on multiple fronts. He's being called in a scary scene. 00:07:21:22 - 00:07:23:09 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:07:23:11 - 00:07:51:06 Rev. Hannah I think this is why I love Isaiah. I think this man is very humble, a little cautious, and nice to God. He could have said, “Are you kidding me? You see the crazy world.” But instead he goes, “I'm a man with unclean lips, and I'm not worthy of serving your call.” 00:07:51:08 - 00:08:06:21 Rev. Hannah “And I live among a people with unclean lips.” He placed himself among others: “I'm not any better than these people. We are all crazy people, and we don't deserve your mercy here,” right? 00:08:06:23 - 00:08:31:14 Rev. Brittany That, to me, is so reassuring, right? Isaiah could have pointed his finger and said, “Well, I don't do the things that they're doing.” But no matter what, we're all a part of society, right? We all function in the dysfunction—myself included, me included. For him to say out loud, “Woe is me!”— 00:08:31:16 - 00:08:55:06 Rev. Brittany “I ain't got it all. I don't have it all figured out. And the people that I'm around surely don't have it all figured out.” I think there's something humble and human about Isaiah recognizing his shortcomings and being able not only to recognize them, but to be willing to move beyond them. 00:08:55:07 - 00:08:56:02 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:08:56:04 - 00:09:30:18 Rev. Hannah He didn't say no either, though. “I'm a man with unclean lips, so you decide.” He was putting the ball in God's court and saying, “These are my limitations, and there's nothing I can do as a part of this human society,” as you just said. In this call story, he didn't have the agency, but God was in control. 00:09:31:00 - 00:09:35:11 Rev. Brittany Correct. God—listen. 00:09:35:12 - 00:09:43:12 Rev. Brittany God is in control because the door frame shook. The six-winged angels are flying around. 00:09:43:13 - 00:09:46:12 Rev. Hannah And burning your lips with coal. 00:09:46:14 - 00:09:48:10 Rev. Brittany By golly. 00:09:48:12 - 00:09:52:15 Rev. Hannah A lot is going on. It's one thing to see the smoke, but coal touching your lips? 00:09:52:16 - 00:10:00:00 Rev. Brittany Correct. I don't know if you've ever had, like, lip burn. It's not a fun feeling. 00:10:00:02 - 00:10:23:01 Rev. Hannah But I see a little humility and a little more grace in this text: a human acknowledging, “I'm not worthy of serving you,” and God comes to him and makes him clean. What do you think about that? 00:10:23:01 - 00:10:47:13 Rev. Brittany And removing his guilt, right? Sometimes, when we make mistakes or know that we live in a society that's flawed and that we, too, have flaws, it can become overwhelming with guilt. You feel like there's nothing you can do. So, for one of the seraphim to say, “Your guilt has departed; your sin is removed,” right? 00:10:47:15 - 00:11:04:19 Rev. Brittany It's almost like he gives the confession. This is what I love about it. I believe in confessing, right? He gives his confession, and then he is absolved. Then he is able to hear the call that God has: “Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?” 00:11:04:20 - 00:11:36:18 Rev. Hannah You just clicked something in my brain: the prayer of confession in the sanctuary, or words of confession in the temple. The temple—or the sanctuary—is not just a place where we come in asking for blessings. It's a place where we bring all the limitations we have and all the evil things happening in the world. 00:11:36:20 - 00:11:56:22 Rev. Hannah The reality of our world, into the temple, into the sacred space, right? And say, “Here are my own limitations.” That's where God meets us and welcomes us with grace. 00:11:56:23 - 00:12:16:08 Rev. Brittany Right. It's like the prayer of confession then moves us to be able to receive God's grace. Now we are open. We're not carrying the burden of shame and guilt anymore, so we can receive the grace. 00:12:16:10 - 00:12:40:13 Rev. Hannah Also think about all the weight we carry into that space—all the weight, hesitations, judgments, assumptions, and our own internal struggles. We don't have to leave them outside the church. We can carry them into the space, into the presence of God. 00:12:40:15 - 00:12:44:12 Rev. Brittany And it's— 00:12:44:13 - 00:13:06:22 Rev. Brittany God comes to Isaiah while he's in the temple, right? That's a very familiar place, but this is a very unfamiliar scene. Sometimes we come into the church, into the sanctuary, expecting the same feeling week after week. We don't expect that. We don't expect to see the heavenly host. We don't expect to really encounter the voice of God. 00:13:06:22 - 00:13:32:13 Rev. Brittany We're going because it's what we do. It's a part of our routine. It's part of our faith. But sometimes I think we have become so routinized in the things we've done, or the things we do in our faith, that we aren't expecting to hear the voice of God come to us in the temple, to encounter heavenly forces, whatever they may be. 00:13:32:14 - 00:14:08:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. You just mentioned something about an unusual scene and how often we come into the same thing out of habit, expecting the routines. But here God is welcoming this person with unclean lips with grace, saying, “You're cleansed here now, and you're worthy to speak whatever I'm going to tell you to speak.” 00:14:08:06 - 00:14:45:08 Rev. Hannah We often think that we need to come in prepared to receive Communion. We need to come in prepared to hear the words of God, to be blessed by God. But this encounter with God wasn't about personal blessing. It was about your call out in the world, and all the things that happen in the temple or sanctuary: God's grace cleansing your sin and saving you from the shame and guilt that you bring into that space. 00:14:45:13 - 00:14:59:14 Rev. Hannah It's not just for yourself, not for your peace. It's for you to have that confidence, with humility, to go out into the world and right the wrongs. 00:14:59:17 - 00:15:10:01 Rev. Brittany Correct. That's perfect, Reverend Hannah, because I don't think God blesses us just to be a blessing to ourselves, right? 00:15:10:03 - 00:15:10:21 Rev. Hannah Or to each other. 00:15:10:21 - 00:15:33:12 Rev. Brittany Or to each other but for the world. How do you go out beyond the walls and the people you're comfortable being around, and share with other people the blessing God has given you? Sometimes I think that, in our Americanized culture and society, we are so individualistic. 00:15:33:14 - 00:15:37:15 Rev. Brittany And so … we hold on to things, whether— 00:15:37:16 - 00:15:38:12 Rev. Hannah Personal choice. 00:15:38:13 - 00:15:46:19 Rev. Brittany Right. Personal salvation. “Jesus Christ is my Lord and personal Savior.” And it's like, I don't think that's how it goes down. 00:15:46:21 - 00:15:50:03 Rev. Hannah God has always been the God of the world—the entire universe. 00:15:50:04 - 00:16:17:23 Rev. Brittany Correct. All of the things, right? Once we recognize that when God has blessed us, it's always for the betterment of God's world and all of God's people, then we can really recognize how beautiful and gracious it is to be a child of God. 00:16:18:01 - 00:16:35:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. You brought my attention back to the first five chapters of Isaiah. This is a very unique place for a call story to take place: chapter six, right out of those 66 chapters. 00:16:35:20 - 00:16:36:21 Rev. Brittany Because Isaiah is long. 00:16:36:22 - 00:16:48:09 Rev. Hannah Yes, and by three different authors. But the first five chapters talk about all those signs of the present day going south. 00:16:48:10 - 00:16:49:06 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:16:49:08 - 00:17:06:00 Rev. Hannah Five chapters are full of events and signs that say, “You're going to have some trouble because you're doing these things wrong.” It wasn't about any personal sin. It was about the entire nation. 00:17:06:03 - 00:17:06:18 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:17:06:21 - 00:17:39:05 Rev. Hannah In every corner—in their use of finances, in their political corruption, in every aspect. That made me wonder: Why do we ever talk about the separation of church and state when God has been involved in everything from creation to this moment? Why do we have to limit the scope of God to inside a church? When did that happen, and why did that happen? 00:17:39:07 - 00:17:41:20 Rev. Hannah For whom did that happen? 00:17:41:23 - 00:18:00:01 Rev. Brittany Did it happen? I think it's beautiful when people can see God more expansively. But sometimes we silo God into being the God of our own agenda, right? 00:18:00:03 - 00:18:02:11 Rev. Hannah God is our caged bird. 00:18:02:12 - 00:18:06:23 Rev. Brittany Oh, Maya Angelou says she knows why the caged bird sings. Okay. 00:18:07:02 - 00:18:16:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. And in our privatized, individualistic culture, God is a caged bird. 00:18:16:05 - 00:18:22:03 Rev. Brittany For sure. With clipped wings. 00:18:22:05 - 00:18:54:04 Rev. Hannah The funny thing is that in this story, God didn't even speak a word to Isaiah. All these things were happening before his eyes, and his lips were cleansed. God didn't promise Isaiah any superpowers that he didn't have. He brought these unclean lips, and the same lips were cleansed. 00:18:54:06 - 00:18:59:12 Rev. Hannah And God simply shows up and asks a simple question. 00:18:59:14 - 00:19:21:09 Rev. Brittany “Whom shall I send? Who will go for us?” I think it's very interesting that Isaiah refers to his lips as unclean, knowing that he's a prophet and is about to speak. This cleansing of his lips is not only— 00:19:21:11 - 00:19:42:19 Rev. Brittany It's symbolic of many things, right? The experiences he's had, the ways he's maybe talked down to other people or talked about other people. He recognizes the way his lips have been unclean, acknowledges that, and then he is cleansed. 00:19:42:21 - 00:19:47:19 Rev. Brittany To then go and do the work of speaking. 00:19:47:21 - 00:20:18:06 Rev. Hannah His lips have been touched by something sacred, and now the use of his lips will be different. It's the same mouth; the use of it will be different because of what happened to it. With God's touch, welcoming him with grace and asking that question, his answer changed from “I have unclean lips” to 00:20:18:08 - 00:20:22:13 Rev. Brittany “Here I am. Send me.” 00:20:22:15 - 00:20:25:16 Rev. Brittany “Here I am. I am here. Send me.” 00:20:25:19 - 00:20:53:15 Rev. Hannah He's ready. You know what? I can resonate with this prophet. I can imagine myself making excuses in front of God: “I'm an ESL person. I have unclean lips. I have cussed before. I have unclean lips. I have talked about people. I have unclean lips. And I have joined in the voices of the mess, hurting others.” 00:20:53:17 - 00:20:55:14 Rev. Hannah “I have unclean lips.” 00:20:55:16 - 00:20:58:06 Rev. Brittany Girl. Me too. What? For sure! 00:20:58:08 - 00:21:12:04 Rev. Hannah Yeah. So I see Isaiah not saying no, but giving the same reasons why God cannot use him. But: “Here I am. Send me.” 00:21:12:06 - 00:21:20:12 Rev. Brittany “If this is what you want, Lord. Listen, you know me. You know the inner workings of my heart, mind, soul, and life.” 00:21:20:14 - 00:21:38:16 Rev. Hannah I see Isaiah as a man of few words here. His response to God's call is short. But think about all those words that are going to come out of his mouth for the rest of Isaiah. 00:21:38:18 - 00:21:52:01 Rev. Brittany And, you know, God never tells Isaiah in the first eight verses where God's going to send anybody. “Whom shall I send?” “Well, where am I going?” But Isaiah doesn't even ask that. Isaiah doesn't say— 00:21:52:03 - 00:21:52:23 Rev. Hannah Man of few words, out of humility! 00:21:52:23 - 00:22:13:02 Rev. Brittany “Okay, well, wherever you're going, I guess I'll go. I'm down for the ride, right? Here I am. Send me. I'll drive.” It's interesting because I feel like there have been times in my life when I've heard God say, “Are you going to go?” 00:22:13:04 - 00:22:31:15 Rev. Brittany Like, “Will you go if I say go?” And I have literally, out loud sometimes, been like, “No, what's happening?” Then there have been other times when I've relinquished control and just been like, “Okay. All right. I guess, yes.” 00:22:31:17 - 00:22:41:04 Rev. Hannah And I remember from your sermon last Sunday, we have this conditional response to God's call. “If you do X, I'll do Y.” 00:22:41:06 - 00:22:56:20 Rev. Hannah But there wasn't any of that in this one. The same lips that Isaiah recognized as unclean became the tools through which God was going to speak through him. 00:22:56:22 - 00:23:22:06 Rev. Brittany I think that's honestly how our shortcomings work, right? I think our mistakes teach us and move us forward to do good if we pay attention to them in that way, as opposed to holding on to them and feeling such shame about them. How can our shortcomings work for the greater good? 00:23:22:07 - 00:23:31:03 Rev. Brittany “I was a gossip. I used to talk badly about people, and now I don't. I think about what I say before I say it,” you know what I mean? 00:23:31:05 - 00:23:39:17 Rev. Hannah That actually prompts me to think about shadow work. 00:23:39:19 - 00:24:08:09 Rev. Hannah Everyone has a shadow. Everyone has a limitation. Shadows come from our upbringing, our trauma, and our family of origin. But when we recognize the shadow as unclean lips, when we recognize our shadow, work on it, reflect on it, and invite God to be there, your shadow can be redeemed to become your gift. 00:24:08:11 - 00:24:11:06 Rev. Brittany Correct. Because God's in the shadow too. 00:24:11:07 - 00:24:16:10 Rev. Hannah The psychology worked in the ancient time. Why can't it work today? 00:24:16:12 - 00:24:18:03 Rev. Brittany It absolutely needs to work today. 00:24:18:04 - 00:24:29:13 Rev. Hannah Listeners, if you have any shadows that you're not proud of, invite God to be in your space, and let God's call touch you. 00:24:29:15 - 00:24:36:13 Rev. Brittany Be present with them. The shadow always teaches us something if we're willing to listen. 00:24:36:14 - 00:24:37:23 Rev. Hannah It also burns still. 00:24:38:00 - 00:24:52:13 Rev. Brittany Oh, it tears you up. No, it'll tear you up and through, but it builds you up too, right? I don't think God destroys anything that God won't repair, resurrect, and restore. 00:24:52:15 - 00:25:12:03 Rev. Hannah That's the death-and-resurrection model. The shadow needs to be put to death so that something new, divine, and good can come out of it. 00:25:12:05 - 00:25:14:06 Rev. Brittany Well, we could talk about Isaiah all day. 00:25:14:09 - 00:25:17:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. We didn't expect to have this kind of conversation. 00:25:17:11 - 00:25:21:03 Rev. Brittany I did not, but it was very, very good. I'm thankful for your perspective, Reverend. 00:25:21:09 - 00:25:23:21 Rev. Hannah Thank you for your perspective as well. 00:25:23:23 - 00:25:45:23 Rev. Brittany We have some questions that we'd like you to ponder on your own. Or, if you have some folks in your life you'd like to chat with about these questions, we invite you to do so. The first question is: What keeps us from listening with humility? The second question is: How can we acknowledge our own shortcomings while navigating disappointment in the actions of others? 00:25:46:01 - 00:25:53:15 Rev. Brittany And thirdly: What helps you stay grounded when the present reality doesn't give you much hope? 00:25:53:17 - 00:26:00:16 Rev. Brittany We hope you have enjoyed our perspective, and we hope to hear your perspective soon. Bye. 00:26:00:18 - 00:26:15:15 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org.