00:00:00:09 - 00:00:28:06 Rev. Trudy Today's world is full of Goliaths, but we can harness the confidence of David. Stay tuned for how. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. 00:00:28:08 - 00:01:00:05 Rev. Trudy We are continuing our series of conversations we’ve titled “What We Really Mean When We Talk About…” This is 2.0. And today we are talking about faith. And the Scripture reading that we are considering comes from 1 Samuel 17:2-11. It's a little bit of the story you probably heard as a child. Here it is: 00:01:00:07 - 00:01:27:00 Rev. Trudy “Saul and the Israelites gathered and encamped in the valley of Elah and formed ranks against the Philistines. The Philistines stood on the mountain on the one side, and Israel stood on the mountain on the other side, with a valley between them. And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a champion named Goliath of Gath, whose height was 6 cubits and a span. 00:01:27:03 - 00:01:54:20 Rev. Trudy He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with the coat of mail. The weight of the coat was 5000 shekels of bronze. He had greaves of bronze on his legs, and the javelin of bronze slung between his shoulders. The shaft of his spear was like a weaver's beam, and his spears head weighed 600 shekels of iron, and his shield bearer went before him. 00:01:54:22 - 00:02:26:08 Rev. Trudy He stood and shouted to the ranks of Israel, ‘Why have you come out to draw up for battle? Am I not a Philistine? And are you not servants of Saul? Choose a man for yourselves, and let him come down to me. If he is able to fight with me and kill me, then we will be your servants. But if I prevail against him and kill him, then you shall be our servants and serve us.’ 00:02:26:10 - 00:02:49:20 Rev. Trudy And the Philistines said, ‘Today I defy the ranks of Israel. Give me a man that we may fight together.’ And when Saul and all of Israel heard these words of the Philistine, they were dismayed and greatly afraid. 00:02:49:22 - 00:02:51:02 Rev. Trudy David and Goliath! Here it is! 00:02:51:03 - 00:02:52:22 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:02:53:00 - 00:03:16:11 Rev. Trudy David's not on the scene so far, right? There's not a lot of bronze going on in here. Lots of measurements that you know. We don't know what they mean. Most of us. I'm told that he's, what, nine feet tall, over nine feet tall. And all of his armor was about equivalent of 125 pounds. That's what I read somewhere. 00:03:16:15 - 00:03:18:10 Rev. Trudy I don't know. Can't check their math. 00:03:18:11 - 00:03:22:00 Rev. Hannah And earlier you mentioned something about the age. 00:03:22:02 - 00:03:34:21 Rev. Trudy Oh, the age. Yes, I did. I did this is the Bronze Age. In historical times, this would have been about that, which is obviously why there's so much bronze in the story. 00:03:34:22 - 00:03:37:19 Rev. Hannah In details. In details. 00:03:37:23 - 00:03:39:03 Rev. Trudy Right. That's right. 00:03:39:04 - 00:03:53:02 Rev. Hannah This is one of those children's stories that makes into different versions of Children's Bible in many different languages. Yeah. And I grew up hearing this story probably annually. 00:03:53:04 - 00:03:53:14 Rev. Trudy Did you? 00:03:53:19 - 00:03:59:19 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Yeah. Like in … I went to a methodist missionary elementary school. 00:03:59:21 - 00:04:00:21 Rev. Trudy Okay. So that makes sense. 00:04:00:21 - 00:04:26:07 Rev. Hannah We had a chapel every week. So, and between that and church. But this is one of those children's stories that we like to tell and sounds like, usually we feature the story between David and Goliath, but I was fascinated by how you choose this portion to highlight something that we are about to reveal today. 00:04:26:10 - 00:04:27:02 Rev. Trudy There you go. 00:04:27:05 - 00:04:44:05 Rev. Hannah And, a great details about his armor and Goliath armor and all that. And as you know, as a Bible nerd, I always like to expand our horizon and see the bigger picture and the history. 00:04:44:06 - 00:04:47:14 Rev. Trudy I rely on this in our conversations. Tell me. 00:04:47:16 - 00:05:07:16 Rev. Hannah So, we hear about Samuel. And so, throughout the entire book from chapter 1 to 16, and David is mentioned twice, probably like once then when he was called and another time anointed or probably. 00:05:07:17 - 00:05:08:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:05:08:13 - 00:05:40:00 Rev. Hannah Anyway, and in that succession of story, we hear the story about Samuel as the priest among the judges, and then, Saul, the first king. And this is the second king, probably. And there's a lot of change politically at that time, like from loosely jointed federation into a little united monarchy. 00:05:40:01 - 00:06:00:16 Rev. Trudy That's right. So, this is the 12 tribes becoming a full on nation. Yes. Rather than 12 independent tribes with all the judges for each tribe doing all of that kind of stuff. So, this is that moment of time where they are just entering into that monarchy. Right. And yeah, Saul is the first king. Yes. 00:06:00:17 - 00:06:08:18 Rev. Trudy And David is his successor? Yes. And I just told the story away. I think most people knew. Carry on. Yes. 00:06:08:23 - 00:06:43:17 Rev. Hannah And that's the political situation. And historically, as you mentioned, about the Bronze Age, people used to be the Israelites, used to be nomadic people. Yeah. Herding sheep and cattle. Now settling into more established life, owning land and plows and all this iron product, products of Iron Age. Yeah. Yeah. And trying to settle in. And then God used to be the God of tribes. 00:06:43:19 - 00:06:57:02 Rev. Hannah Now God is creating a nation out of these 12 loosely federated people. So, the relationship between God and Israel is becoming a little more covenantal. 00:06:57:06 - 00:07:07:01 Rev. Trudy Covenantal. Okay. Okay. So, I was wondering if it was coming, maybe even a little bit more, “orthodox.” 00:07:07:03 - 00:07:10:19 Rev. Hannah Institutionalized the two lines. That's the way. 00:07:10:21 - 00:07:13:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. More. More restricted. 00:07:13:11 - 00:07:26:05 Rev. Hannah Yes. The covenantal relationship started all year with Abraham. Isaac. Now it's becoming more institutionalized with the settlement into a city. 00:07:26:07 - 00:07:35:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. For sure. Yeah. You got to have everybody understand in the right way. Right. And believe in the right things. Yes. Yeah. Happened in Christianity, too. 00:07:35:13 - 00:07:40:10 Rev. Hannah So, this story, although it may sound like a children's story, it's not. 00:07:41:07 - 00:07:52:00 Rev. Hannah It carries a lot of socio, historical, political, and technological shifts in the life of Israelites. And the stops right there. 00:07:52:02 - 00:07:53:16 Rev. Hannah Yeah. 00:07:53:18 - 00:08:20:06 Rev. Trudy Well yeah. And so, it's really interesting because I think the story of David and Goliath really captures our desire for the underdog to win from time to time because we feel as though that's doesn't happen often enough. Right. And I think that's the hook. But I also then understanding this moment in cultural history where things have shifted and everything's changing. 00:08:20:06 - 00:08:48:21 Rev. Trudy And God is also kind of in the mix of that. And we'll say more about that I know as we get into the story. But it says also not just about the underdog, David who wins, but the God who is orchestrating and being with the people as all of these changes occur so that they can come out of it as faithful, strong people. 00:08:48:22 - 00:09:20:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. And it's much more complicated story than that, than what we read. And you just gave us a little foretaste of it. In this book, David is called by the priest Samuel, and is hired by the king Saul, and is now empowered by God. Yeah. So, David is not only, Samuel's boy, Saul’s, and God's person. 00:09:20:11 - 00:09:20:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:21:00 - 00:09:22:13 Rev. Hannah So. 00:09:22:15 - 00:09:36:06 Rev. Hannah The 1 Samuel is weaving the politics and religion and the Divine. The Divine power all together in this simple story. 00:09:36:07 - 00:09:51:04 Rev. Trudy In this simple story. And yeah, that has some harsh repercussions as we come into this particular age. Right. With the hope of having a theodicy. 00:09:51:06 - 00:09:54:03 Rev. Trudy That's not the right word. Theocracy. 00:09:54:05 - 00:10:02:20 Rev. Hannah Sorry. We're getting the theodicy instead of the theocracy. We're getting the why God did you do this, instead of God is in charge of our government. 00:10:02:20 - 00:10:31:12 Rev. Trudy That's an interesting perspective. That's probably for another podcast. Yes. But you're right. And the point of that weaving is to allow God to shape the people. Yes. Right. And the way in which God shows up in this story, I think, says a lot about who God is right before we get to there. 00:10:31:13 - 00:11:00:19 Rev. Trudy Some of the study that I looked at, there's different ways this story shows up. There are some translation, some scrolls, some iterations where some of those verses are not present. Right. Did you come across that? Yeah. Yeah. And even so, it's not fully there in every single, representation we get of the script. 00:11:00:21 - 00:11:03:04 Rev. Trudy That's not the right word of the Scriptures. 00:11:03:07 - 00:11:07:01 Rev. Hannah The holistic picture. There you go. 00:11:07:03 - 00:11:39:12 Rev. Trudy And not just that, but prior to this placement of this story, in this, as you said, he's already been called by Samuel. He's already been anointed by Saul to be the next king. He has already got his position. But in this story, he has gone back to being just the shepherd who annoys his brothers, even though as the story proceeds, he brings along provisions for them who are standing in front of this giant to keep up with their vigil. 00:11:39:13 - 00:12:15:23 Rev. Trudy David comes along and does that for them, and they treat him like he's a shepherd boy. Right. So, it seems out of place with the storyline. And so, on the first glance, it's probably a late addition, right? Yeah. Right. To all of this. Which begs the question: Why? Right. Which for me, says I think they were really wanting to make sure we understood something about God in this story. 00:12:16:01 - 00:12:44:03 Rev. Trudy In this story that is inserted in the trajectory of the Israelites move to being a nation, in the trajectory of the changes in understanding God that are probably there. That even just the trajectory of David, who will come to be somebody that everybody in Judaism and Christianity knows about. 00:12:44:05 - 00:13:14:06 Rev. Hannah Yes. And I think the intention is not purely pure, because the Davidic kingdom was the only heyday, maybe the heyday of the Israelites. And as you mentioned, the latest addition and editing took place in the first century before the common era. Yeah. So, it's after many, many different empires ruling over them and oppression. Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:14:07 - 00:13:30:07 Rev. Hannah And before Jesus came to the scene. Yeah. They needed a heroic person in their Scripture to point them towards God and how God has worked through difficult times. Yeah. Like in the situation of Goliath. 00:13:30:08 - 00:13:32:11 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. Yeah. 00:13:32:12 - 00:13:34:12 Rev. Hannah You needed a distraction. Yeah. 00:13:34:13 - 00:14:12:07 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting to me, just the way in which we can recognize these real human activities in our Scripture. Right. Real, intentional, agenda-laden kinds of stories that are both good and bad. Right? They're both good and bad. And I don't know that we've always recognized that as a faith tradition. I think we have often tried to just kind of say, “Oh, yeah, well, it's a typo and the scribe got it wrong and it really goes go well together.” 00:14:12:09 - 00:14:38:13 Rev. Trudy Right. But I think we lose some of it. When we don't recognize that if we don't ask the questions: what was going on here, and why is it going to help us as we consider the Word of God and the nature of God, or is it going to shift us and vote for people that ... 00:14:38:15 - 00:14:43:16 Rev. Trudy Sorry. Never mind about that one. Right. Do something more damaging. 00:14:43:17 - 00:15:19:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. And I think this final editors fully embrace the complexity of the Divine presence in their midst. Not always good, not always bad. That's right. And that was the case with Saul and David. At some point they were a pretty good people of God and leaders of God. Yeah. Or chosen. Yeah. And at some point, they were corrupted and they showed, their lust for power and women and... 00:15:19:12 - 00:15:19:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:15:19:21 - 00:15:38:21 Rev. Hannah Yeah, violence and all that. So. Yeah. In even in the chosen ones, we see the complexities. And the whole book of Samuel doesn't hide. Yeah. Yeah. Those complexities, as you mentioned. Not fully good. 00:15:39:02 - 00:16:04:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. So, let's look at this story. Yes, it goes on. It goes on. David brings over the provisions, and he ends up being the one to stand in front of Goliath. And Saul gives him his armor, a lightweight armor that is still too heavy for David. 00:16:04:13 - 00:16:32:23 Rev. Trudy And so, David leaves it behind and he then comes, only with, you know, five stones. His sling. Something else. I can't remember what it is. Right. And they begin to taunt one another. We hear Goliath's taunting to the Israelites, and in fact, he gets mad because nobody's going to stand up and engage in the taunting. 00:16:33:01 - 00:17:01:10 Rev. Trudy But that used to be a form of combat in various traditional cultures. Right. Just to kind of taunt. And it was intended to be a battle of the mind of the wit, if you will, and that might avoid a more dangerous violent combat. So, they're going back and forth. Goliath taunts David about his size and his lack of experience. 00:17:01:12 - 00:17:20:15 Rev. Trudy He says, “Give me an equal here. This is ridiculous.” He's you know, but David counter said, oh, he's killed lions and he's bears. He's fine. And he then often he offers Goliath, “You're going to suffer a similar fate. I'm going to feed you to the wild animals.” Right. And Goliath says, “What am I, a dog?” 00:17:20:16 - 00:17:34:12 Rev. Trudy “I'm not going to run after your sticks.” And David says, “Come to me and I'll give your flesh and blood to the animals.” Right. So, they have this taunting back and forth. 00:17:34:13 - 00:17:35:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:17:35:11 - 00:17:41:13 Rev. Trudy And then David takes the stone. 00:17:41:15 - 00:17:44:21 Rev. Trudy And falls him. 00:17:44:23 - 00:17:52:23 Rev. Trudy And Goliath is down on the ground, takes his sword, cuts off his head and is declared the winner. 00:17:53:01 - 00:17:55:03 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:17:55:05 - 00:18:30:22 Rev. Trudy Go, Underdog! Go, Underdog! And part of what David insists on in this story is that God's honor needs to be defended. And, in fact, he is so ashamed of the Israelites for not standing up to Goliath who is taunting God, and he wants to defend God's honor. Yes. And he relies on God. 00:18:31:00 - 00:18:54:02 Rev. Trudy As a shepherd, he had to protect his flock. And he ... that's where he counted the lion and the bear. And God helped him protect the flock. And he gives God the credit. Yes. For all of that? Yes. Right. So that it's that real confidence in what God is going to do, which circles this back around to why this is about faith. 00:18:54:04 - 00:18:55:05 Rev. Trudy Yes. Right. 00:18:55:06 - 00:19:38:21 Rev. Hannah And I hear that … there's a sharp contrast between what Goliath is armed with. Yes. And what David has figure wise and technology wise and confidence wise. But Goliath's confidence was in his armor and in his stature and his height and power and capability. But David comes with this natural pebbles. Right. And yet fully armored with the Divine power. 00:19:38:23 - 00:20:20:15 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And he's. Yeah, he's the connector between the Divine deity and a federated nation. Claiming that it's not always the armor is and what you see and what you can envy or fear. But it's God who goes beyond our calculations and our limitations and our fear and does something unexpected. Yeah. So, it's not naïve optimism. 00:20:20:17 - 00:20:44:17 Rev. Hannah It becomes more solid faith. Right. In God. Right. God who brings mysterious powers and victories to people. Yeah. Yeah. And that didn't remain victorious until the first century, before the common era. But people were seeing God through ages. Yeah. 00:20:44:19 - 00:21:07:12 Rev. Trudy It's a … when we talk about David and his complete confidence in God, we see that in so many of the stories of David as it moves forward. Where he is, you know, singing the songs to the Lord and he's nurturing that connection. And we also see the ways in which he has turned his back on God and done something different. 00:21:07:14 - 00:21:28:17 Rev. Trudy Right. Talking about the full humanity of the Scriptures, and that's the person God chooses. So, I think God doesn't need us to be perfect. God just needs us to be God’s. 00:21:31:14 - 00:21:32:03 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:21:32:05 - 00:21:33:02 Rev. Hannah Yep. 00:21:33:04 - 00:21:47:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And if that's the case, would it have mattered had David not won? In the battle against Goliath? 00:21:45:00 - 00:21:47:13 Rev. Hannah That's an interesting question. 00:21:47:13 - 00:22:12:14 Rev. Trudy Because when I talk about, when we talk about, having other confidence in God and that's how he won. Well, that doesn't always make us win. And I want to say back to that theodicy question: “God, I trusted in you, and what happened? You didn't perform.” Right. 00:22:12:16 - 00:22:43:10 Rev. Trudy But I think there's something to the fact that David went into battle with Goliath, trusting in God, but also trusting in all that made him who he had been up to that point. He was a shepherd. He knew the ways of wild things. He knew how to protect them with something simple like rocks and a slingshot. He knew his limitations and he knew he had to be strategic. 00:22:43:15 - 00:23:04:18 Rev. Trudy And it really wasn't God who did anything other than nurture David in all of those experiences. And then David was able to see the weakness in Goliath with all that bronze on them and found it and hit him there. 00:23:04:20 - 00:23:05:08 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:23:05:10 - 00:23:06:17 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:23:06:19 - 00:23:36:05 Rev. Hannah Yes. And the … I am going to bring my own experience. So, when we know what we can do well but when we are put in a very, difficult situations like this, we lose confidence. That's true. And we are shaken by the fear. And we are overwhelmed by the fear. And we don't do well fully, confidently. 00:23:36:06 - 00:23:48:07 Rev. Hannah Yeah. But this boy was right there with all the things that he knew how to do it well. Right. But if he was doing it for his own ego ... 00:23:48:09 - 00:23:49:23 Rev. Trudy Oh, he couldn't match Goliath. 00:23:50:00 - 00:24:12:09 Rev. Hannah He couldn’t match Goliath. Yeah. He might have lost it. Yeah. Yeah. But he knew that he was being used by God with all the things that he knew how to do it. That's right. And he was up there with his faith, with God's power, and confidence, and fighting with Goliath. 00:24:12:10 - 00:24:46:15 Rev. Trudy How many times do you and I climb into the pulpit. Oh, okay. Me probably more than you, because you're much more faithful than I am. Climb into the pulpit and say, “I don't know what's going to come out of my mouth, but I'm going to get up there and I'll say something.” Right. Negating the 28 years or more, whatever that I've been in the pulpit, negating how God has worked within me to come up with something that might be helpful, negating all of that stuff. 00:24:46:15 - 00:25:13:23 Rev. Trudy Because all I see is what's inside of me that feels uncertain and know, “My gosh, there might be my District Superintendent or my Bishops in the congregation today.” Or it might be, “Oh, those guys are here...” And you get the picture. Right. We focus on the outside. And we limit ourselves into what we bring to those situations because of what's going on in the inside. 00:25:13:23 - 00:25:25:23 Rev. Trudy And what we should be doing is really saying, “God helped me with the lion. And God helped me with the bear. And I learned a lot from that. And so maybe this isn't so scary.” 00:25:26:00 - 00:25:37:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. So instead of seeing the challenging realities, David saw what he was capable of and who’s behind him. 00:25:37:15 - 00:25:49:07 Rev. Trudy Oh, say that again. That was good. That was good. Yeah. Yeah. “Rather than seeing the challenging realities, he saw what was within him.” 00:25:49:08 - 00:25:54:02 Rev. Hannah Yes. That was his faith in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. 00:25:54:06 - 00:26:04:15 Rev. Trudy And that's really what faith is. Don't you think? Is to see what you can't see. And let it guide you. 00:26:04:17 - 00:26:19:08 Rev. Hannah And feel the presence of the unseen. In that moment. Yeah. Who's working with us, through us, and beyond us, and above us. And in spite of us. 00:26:19:10 - 00:26:35:06 Rev. Trudy Whether it is the anointed soon-to-be king that shows up or the shepherd boy who is an irritant to his brothers. Yes. Yes. Right. Yes. Good conversation Hannah. 00:26:35:08 - 00:26:41:14 Rev. Hannah Yes. I enjoyed having conversation about this, and I hope I didn't … 00:26:41:16 - 00:26:45:17 Rev. Trudy Oh. Stop it! You brought your whole self to us, and I'm, we're, grateful for it. 00:26:45:19 - 00:26:50:20 Rev. Hannah And powered by sugar and Holy Spirit. 00:26:50:22 - 00:26:51:15 Rev. Trudy There you go. 00:26:51:16 - 00:27:00:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. So, it's important that we do not become paralyzed by our fear or the realities we see. Yeah. Yeah. So. 00:27:00:16 - 00:27:26:02 Rev. Trudy I'm speaking to myself now. Well, now we all get there. We all have to be reminded of that. And thank you so much for your presence and your wisdom and the conversation and the spirit here. Anybody who's listening, I hope so. Yeah. So, let us go. Thank you. And I would like to offer our audience a few questions for them to think about this passage. 00:27:26:02 - 00:28:05:11 Rev. Trudy And, David, faith in this situation. Good. So: What does this story tell you about God? What are the “Goliaths” in our world that convince us that they are the only reality that matters? And: How do we weaken the power of God in the face of difficult circumstances? These are good questions to bring your reality and our world and our faith together, for us to sit together and find God's presence in those moments. 00:28:05:12 - 00:28:21:18 Rev. Trudy Thank you so much for listening and I enjoyed our conversation. I hope you all enjoyed your conversation with your loved ones and friends and whoever is around you. And thanks for joining us. See you next week. Bye y'all. 00:28:21:20 - 00:28:37:05 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources visit FUMCSD.org.