00:00:00:15 - 00:00:07:05.
Rev. Hannah.
What if peace is an avoiding conflict, but facing it without losing ourselves?

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Rev. Trudy.
Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us.

00:00:21:03 - 00:00:33:13.
Rev. Hannah.
Welcome to perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah. I'm here in the studio with Reverend Brittany. Today we are talking about peace. So what do we really mean when we talk about peace?

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Rev. Brittany.
What do we really mean?

00:00:35:16 - 00:01:06:18.
Rev. Hannah.
And let's begin with Daniel chapter six, verses 11 and 12. The conspirators came and found Daniel praying and seeking mercy before his God. Then they approached the king and said, concerning the interdict, O King, did you not sign an interdict, that anyone who prays to anyone, divine or human, within 30 days, except to you or King, shall be thrown into a den of lions?

00:01:06:20 - 00:01:23:01.
Rev. Hannah.
The king answered the thing steadfast according to the law of the Medes and Persians, which he cannot be, cannot be revoked. Do you remember this story on Sunday school?

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Rev. Brittany.
Of course I remember this story from Sunday school. They kind of get straight to the den of lions. Yeah, they had all the time. The whole thing, you know.

00:01:30:15 - 00:01:35:22.
Rev. Hannah.
They did all those, like, crafts around those den of lions.

00:01:36:00 - 00:01:57:10.
Rev. Brittany.
It's kind of… It's not one of my favorite stories, but, Daniel is dealing with a lot. You know, he's been … he's exiled from Judah, and then he's kind of questioned, and trying to figure out they're trying to figure out who he is, and then he can interpret things. And so, then he gets a little bit more elevation.

00:01:57:10 - 00:02:23:09.
Rev. Brittany.
And then the king is like, okay, now you guys can't pray. And Daniel is a praying prophet. You know, like that's how he connects with himself and with God. Yes. And so, Daniel takes it upon himself to break the interdict, as it says. And he prays to God, you know. Knowing the consequence of doing that.

00:02:23:11 - 00:02:40:13.
Rev. Brittany.
He still has enough gumption. I guess would be the word and enough. Courage to continue to be himself even in the midst of like, very challenging and dangerous times. Yeah.

00:02:40:15 - 00:03:06:10.
Rev. Hannah.
So he lives in a world where the politics is happening. And then he also has this deep faith that he carried from Judah. And if we go a little deeper back into historically beyond our Sunday school, education, the book of Daniel is written in two different languages, Aramaic and Hebrew.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:07:00.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah.

00:03:07:01 - 00:03:39:04.
Rev. Hannah.
And that represents that they have been living the Hebrews, the Jews, including Daniel, have been living under multiple imperial powers. Right. And they had to write their book. Yeah. In two different languages. And that's the simplicity of the old world. But, must have been much longer span of time after the Judah fell at 581. Or is that.

00:03:39:06 - 00:03:53:01.
Rev. Hannah.
Yeah. Somewhere in the sixth century. And then Daniel, in its final form came to be shaped somewhere between the third century down to for a century. So these are like 500 years.

00:03:53:01 - 00:03:53:18.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah.

00:03:53:20 - 00:04:14:18.
Rev. Hannah.
And over these time, there are different powers came and go Babylon first and then Persia and then later Hellenistic world, the Greece right. And competing powers over Palestine and they didn't have any place. So when the superpowers keep on changing.

00:04:14:23 - 00:04:16:02.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:04:16:04 - 00:04:28:12.
Rev. Hannah.
You lose your place all the time. And even if you became elevated in one government, you can be thrown off. And it sounds like it's doing the same.

00:04:28:14 - 00:04:29:13.
Rev. Brittany.
King. Right.

00:04:29:16 - 00:04:43:22.
Rev. Hannah.
That he was elevated and then other people got jealous and wanted to attack him and there was no fault. He was fully serving with the integrity in the government and he was favored by the king. But other people don't like it.

00:04:43:23 - 00:04:44:20.
Rev. Brittany.
Of course not.

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Rev. Hannah.
So.

00:04:45:13 - 00:05:06:23.
Rev. Brittany.
Of course not. Especially when you have a sense… I think that when there's like a jealous spirit, there's a lack of sense of your own self. Right. And so, because Daniel was kind of … he knew who he was and he was going to do his own thing regardless of what other people thought, and regardless of what the rules were, people didn't like that about him.

00:05:06:23 - 00:05:10:19.
Rev. Brittany.
And they also didn't like that the king liked that about him. You know what I mean?

00:05:11:00 - 00:05:36:10.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. Yeah. Two worlds collided in his world, and he didn't have to choose one and attack the other one, right? He still had respect for the king. But he still he served the king the way he has always been. But when he goes to his house he knelt down and prayed. And he wasn't hiding that either.

00:05:36:10 - 00:05:40:14.
Rev. Brittany.
Right. Because it says in the Scripture he had windows in the upper room.

00:05:40:15 - 00:05:51:09.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. So he knew that when different empires came and went. God's still remained the same.

00:05:51:10 - 00:05:52:03.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:05:52:05 - 00:05:59:04.
Rev. Hannah.
And he didn't want to give up on his spiritual life. But he also had to live in that world.

00:05:59:06 - 00:06:25:23.
Rev. Brittany.
I mean he was friends with Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. Right. And they were under Nebuchadnezzar. And this is King Darius. Yeah. So two different kings and have different approaches, but still this very, hardened, innocent way of approaching their people. And I feel like Daniel is coming from a space of like you said, no matter who is the leader of the political world.

00:06:26:00 - 00:06:50:17.
Rev. Brittany.
He knows that God is the leader of all you know. And so, he's unwilling to forfeit his faith. Just for his position. But he also realizes that having that position can benefit a larger number of people. If he goes into it with having integrity. You know what he means. He benefits his people and others who are living under oppression, right.

00:06:50:18 - 00:07:08:06.
Rev. Brittany.
If he has a voice that he can talk to the king and still I feel like you gain that voice and that sense of assurance. Like you said, peace is that understanding of assurance earlier. He gets that assurance from that connection in that relationship that he has with God.

00:07:08:06 - 00:07:19:22.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. And his faith and his civic duty and his relationship all were connected. And he had, he carried all three of them with integrity.

00:07:19:22 - 00:07:20:12.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:07:20:13 - 00:07:51:19.
Rev. Hannah.
And he didn't have to give up one for the other one. And the peace that he carries doesn't come from a clean situation. Right. We often think of a peace that comes from serene backgrounds and peaceful moments when nothing is in conflict. And everything is perfect in the way that we want them to be. But if we extend the peace into the into relationship.

00:07:51:21 - 00:08:14:07.
Rev. Hannah.
My peace may not be your peace. Right. Or my peaceful situation may not be your peaceful situation. But he knew regardless of what's happening outside his personal life, out in the world, he knew that he could maintain and enjoy the peace. If he's grounded. Yeah. In faith.

00:08:14:09 - 00:08:31:23.
Rev. Brittany.
You know something so funny, Reverend Hannah? I went to Bali in 2017 on my own and went to like a meditation retreat because I thought I need to center myself, I think too much, like, yada, yada. And while I was in Bali, I'm at a meditation retreat. Beautiful. It was quiet. They fed us fresh fruits and all the things.

00:08:32:00 - 00:08:52:04.
Rev. Brittany.
And I got back to New Jersey with the sirens and the concrete and I it was like all of the things that I learned in Bali were just pushed to the back of my mind. Right. And it was like I had to sit with myself as you're saying, and be like, if I can do it there, and I have to do it here, I can.

00:08:52:04 - 00:09:09:17.
Rev. Brittany.
If I was able to settle in, to sit and be quiet in those moments, then with the birds chirping and the beauty of the nature, then I should be able to like, sit also in the concrete jungle and with the sirens going on, like how do I quiet myself enough? Because it's not. I'm not always going to be in Bali.

00:09:09:17 - 00:09:20:13.
Rev. Brittany.
I'm not always going to be at a meditation retreat. But there are. I still need to cultivate that sense of quiet and that sense of calm within myself, no matter what's going on around me.

00:09:20:16 - 00:09:43:20.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. And I'm so glad that you got to experience that, and you’re mindful of bringing that peace into your day to day life. Yeah. And think about all those people being depressed and distracted by all the political things that goes on in this nation or around the world, and all the fear and anxiety that came comes from that kind of.

00:09:43:22 - 00:10:11:14.
Rev. Hannah.
Yeah. Situation. And we also need to look into Daniel's situation. Yeah. Different powers come and go. And if it was really written as the scholars say, some somewhere between the first century to the first century before the common era, that means those Jewish people had gone through multiple powers over then without having their own land or governance.

00:10:11:16 - 00:10:40:23.
Rev. Hannah.
And no power over themselves and always being flipped by whoever comes in power. There was no way for these people to be peaceful. And this book is one of those books that features non-fictional person Daniel. Like but Job. Yeah. It's a, yeah. It's a theological book that the Jewish people began to think about during their displacement.

00:10:41:01 - 00:11:09:20.
Rev. Hannah.
And they had to think about how do we hold faith in changing situations and just stressful situations and we often think of peace as something that's immune from all those external circumstances. But here we see this Daniel, a model Jewish person. Yeah. Who knows how to navigate the political world without losing his integrity.

00:11:09:22 - 00:11:10:18.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah.

00:11:10:19 - 00:11:15:19.
Rev. Hannah.
And what he's modeling for other people who are in situations like him.

00:11:15:23 - 00:11:36:00.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah. Because we don't get to take ourselves out of the world. The world is the world. And things are going to happen. There's going to be … there's oppression. There's injustice. There are all of those things that happen. And still there has to be a sense of connection with the God who created you. And a sense of duty.

00:11:36:02 - 00:11:54:03.
Rev. Brittany.
To try to make the world a better place, to do the thing that you can do with whatever privilege that you may have to move the needle forward. And sometimes it may just be like finding a little bit of joy in the midst of such heartbreak and such heartache, you know.

00:11:54:05 - 00:12:17:10.
Rev. Hannah.
I was wondering if Daniel found a little bit of joy and peace in that moment of prayer. While still dealing with whatever is going on. And then think about the den of lions. As placed in the interdict. And he didn't think about what will come after that moment of prayer in his private home.

00:12:17:10 - 00:12:18:06.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:12:18:07 - 00:12:36:13.
Rev. Hannah.
But he was must have been in that fully present in that moment of prayer, being in the presence of God. Yeah. Finding peace in the midst of all those challenges that's coming at him personally and politically.

00:12:36:15 - 00:12:57:14.
Rev. Brittany.
It's in mindfulness. That's what it is about like the practice of mindfulness as being present, not thinking too far into the future and not holding on to the past, but taking the present moment and living into that. So Daniel had already seen what happened to his friends when they were thrown into the fiery furnace. And Nebuchadnezzar was out of his mind.

00:12:57:16 - 00:13:17:00.
Rev. Brittany.
And also, he knows that, like there is the there's the possibility of the den of lions, but I have to be present with myself right now. No matter what, you know what I mean. And so, I think before he had the word for it, like Daniel is practicing mindfulness and like being present with himself.

00:13:17:03 - 00:13:21:23.
Rev. Hannah.
Yeah. And with that mindfulness, he was able to hold the tension with peace.

00:13:22:06 - 00:13:27:00.
Rev. Hannah.
And peace doesn't always mean resolution for him.

00:13:27:02 - 00:13:27:08.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:13:27:08 - 00:13:57:00.
Rev. Hannah.
And he respects the king, still does, and yet still disobeys the rule. And he resists without being violent with the world. And he trusts God without knowing the outcome. So for him, the prayer was not a retreat from the world. He prayed and his … Yeah. And prayer does not remove him from the conflict situation.

00:13:57:02 - 00:14:00:22.
Rev. Hannah.
But it grounded him to face the reality.

00:14:00:23 - 00:14:09:00.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah. But what … Hannah, why do you think that Daniel didn't hide his prayer? Like, you know.

00:14:09:02 - 00:14:12:08.
Rev. Hannah.
That's a good question. What do you think?

00:14:12:10 - 00:14:54:02.
Rev. Brittany.
Sometimes I think, I mean, I don't know … but I kind of think it's intentional to me that the writer wrote that the windows were there and that Daniel prayed knowing that. And there’s something about your life is a living witness to someone else. Like maybe, he maybe did, or maybe he didn't, but maybe he did use that as an opportunity to show others what it looks like to remain, to do the things that you're talking about, to remain faithful to the King while also having to be faithful to yourself because the people knew who Daniel was.

00:14:54:02 - 00:15:23:17.
Rev. Brittany.
It wasn't like he was an unknown citizen. And, he had some type of privilege within the royal court. But still him using his free will to pray, not in private, but in a way that other people might see. Yes, he risked them telling like they did, but I think he also risked, or opened up the opportunity for someone else who was struggling.

00:15:23:19 - 00:15:31:12.
Rev. Brittany.
And their fear of what do they do. Can they pray. Can they both have a foot in and a foot out.

00:15:31:14 - 00:16:02:23.
Rev. Hannah.
You know you're right, you're right on that one. And going back to what I have shared about the time period, Daniel, just non-fictional—fictional person came to exist in the book for the Hebrew people. From 600 to a 105 hundred years. And that's a lot of time. And for different, power over them.

00:16:03:01 - 00:16:19:14.
Rev. Hannah.
But think about five years, 500 years, how much can you be assimilated into whoever comes in power. Very, in terms of language, they were written in Aramaic. The first part. And they weren't thinking in a Hebrew way.

00:16:19:14 - 00:16:20:04.
Rev. Brittany.
Right.

00:16:20:06 - 00:16:47:20.
Rev. Hannah.
So, I'm pretty sure a good, faithful people like Daniel who wanted to show that, yes, you need to live in the world. But you still can embrace your faith the way you have. Even if you are displaced, your God will always be your God and you need to. You do not have to give up or hide that part of spiritual and cultural aspect of yours.

00:16:47:22 - 00:17:11:15.
Rev. Brittany.
It's like singing the songs of Zion and Babylon, like still holding on to the core of who you are, even if you don't know the land. You know what I mean? Even if you have been displaced from the … your culture’s experience, you know what I mean? Like there's still something that is in you that will always remember.

00:17:11:18 - 00:17:23:13.
Rev. Brittany.
I think personally there's that inner knowing. Yeah. And you know, the stories that are told from generation to generation and you know, how people are able to survive.

00:17:23:15 - 00:17:25:02.
Rev. Hannah.
The embodied experience.

00:17:25:03 - 00:17:25:12.
Rev. Brittany.
Right?

00:17:25:12 - 00:17:26:11.
Rev. Hannah.
Of peace.

00:17:26:12 - 00:17:28:04.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:28:07 - 00:17:50:07.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. And it gave him deeper confidence about who he is. And it actually frees him from, frees him to resist injustices that's coming at him without surrendering his own humanity. His own whole self. Yeah. Without compromising the rest.

00:17:50:07 - 00:18:24:12.
Rev. Brittany.
Yeah. So I think I think there's something to be said about that is that when you are living in a world that is unjust, that you are living under an oppressive system, that there is something to be said about holding on to something that is beyond yourself so that you can live. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like when we talk about politics or whatever in this country, it can be overwhelming, and it can just be like, well, what?

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:47:21.
Rev. Brittany.
I don't know what to do, and I don't know how to feel. But there's something about like remembering the people who've come before you and how they still found joy in the midst of struggle and the generations that will come in that the life that you are living and the ways in which you are, finding peace can be transmitted and passed on.

00:18:47:21 - 00:18:59:18.
Rev. Brittany.
You know what I mean? And I think that's really the only way that you survive this holistically. Is if you have something to hold on to. Within yourself.

00:18:59:19 - 00:19:45:16.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. Yes. You're very right on that one. But as a person whenever there is some sort of jealousy coming at me and a lot of external changes, that's overwhelming to me, I often lose myself. Yeah. But the only way I can bounce back is by having some sort of ground. Yeah. To comfort me and have me root myself and reground myself so that I don't react to the situations, but I respond to the situations in a way that I can do in the most peaceful moments, even if it's not peaceful moment.

00:19:45:18 - 00:20:05:08.
Rev. Brittany.
The young kids say, “go outside and touch grass.” That's like how you ground yourself. Like, go be outside and like, do something or, be in nature to remind yourself that, like, it's not all technology, it's not all of this pitter patter outside. Like, take off your shoes and go touch grass.

00:20:05:14 - 00:20:05:21.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes.

00:20:05:21 - 00:20:07:12.
Rev. Brittany.
What's the Gen Zers say.

00:20:07:14 - 00:20:25:05.
Rev. Hannah.
Oh, okay. So, yeah. And going back to Daniel, I often think of him when I lose my ground. Peace doesn't come from perfect condition or context. The situation.

00:20:25:05 - 00:20:25:12.
Rev. Brittany.
Right?

00:20:25:15 - 00:20:41:10.
Rev. Hannah.
It doesn't come in a perfect harmony. Peace doesn't come from having a safe and secure ground. But peace finds us and we find peace within ourselves.

00:20:41:12 - 00:20:45:20.
Rev. Brittany.
Because would we need peace if everything were already.

00:20:45:22 - 00:20:48:15.
Rev. Hannah.
That's not peace, that's comfort. Yeah, exactly.

00:20:48:15 - 00:20:51:04.
Rev. Brittany.
Like if every anyway.

00:20:51:04 - 00:21:15:02.
Rev. Hannah.
Yeah. Yeah. Peace doesn't. Peace is not the same as having enough privilege. Yeah. Entitlement or comfort. Comfortable life. Yeah. Peace. I sometimes find peace in people who are fleeing from a danger, knowing that they're fleeing from the danger and finding a better place.

00:21:15:04 - 00:21:27:16.
Rev. Brittany.
Man, I think it's a forever work in progress. It's a day-to-day kind of thing. You can have peace. One moment and have to remind yourself and reground yourself the next moment, you know.

00:21:27:21 - 00:21:30:17.
Rev. Hannah.
And very relevant to our context right now.

00:21:30:18 - 00:21:33:06.
Rev. Brittany.
Very. Okay.

00:21:33:08 - 00:21:34:06.
Rev. Hannah.
Hey.

00:21:34:08 - 00:21:39:08.
Rev. Brittany.
It's been a while since we've been in this studio together. Hannah, I appreciate our conversation today.

00:21:39:10 - 00:21:41:01.
Rev. Hannah.
Glad to hear.

00:21:41:03 - 00:22:03:11.
Rev. Brittany.
We have a few questions that we'd like for you to ponder. You can reflect on them on your own, or we invite you to share them with some friends and kind of think about what it means for you. Our first question is: When does keeping the peace actually protect injustice? The second question is: What is the difference between peaceful resistance and passive compliance?

00:22:03:13 - 00:22:20:19.
Rev. Brittany.
And the third question is: Can peace include conflict? Some good theology to chew on that. We hope that you'll spend some time reflecting on those questions. And we look forward to chatting with you soon. Bye.

00:22:20:21 - 00:22:36:19.
Rev. Trudy.
This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.