00:00:0015 - 00:00:12:10. Rev. Brittany. Love is more than what you say. It's what you do. Even when it is uncomfortable and you don't want to do it. Washing someone's feet or having someone wash yours. 00:00:1212 - 00:00:26:11. Rev. Trudy. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:2613 - 00:01:01:17. Rev. Brittany. Hi, and welcome to another episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany, I'm here with Reverend Trudy. We are continuing in our conversation about “what do we really mean when we talk about.” And this week we're talking about love. Our scripture reading comes from the Gospel of John, chapter 13, verses 3-9: “Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands and that he had come from God and was going to God, got up from the table, took off his outer robe, and tied a towel around himself. 00:01:0119 - 00:01:23:04. Rev. Brittany. He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel that was tied around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, ‘Lord, are you going to wash my feet?’ Jesus said, ‘You do not know what I am doing now, but later you will understand.’ 00:01:2306 - 00:01:45:15. Rev. Brittany. Peter said to him, ‘You will never wash my feet.’ Jesus answered, ‘Unless I wash you, you will have no share with me.’ Simon Peter said to him, ‘Lord, not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.’” Reverend Trudy, you sure know how to pick them. 00:01:4515 - 00:01:47:08. Rev. Trudy. I do. 00:01:4708 - 00:01:47:23. Rev. Brittany. You sure do. 00:01:4723 - 00:02:09:18. Rev. Trudy. I do. I surely could have found a simpler scripture to read about love, right? Yeah. As if love is not already a complicated term, correct? Yeah. I chose this one. This is one of those stories that I think we need to hear. 00:02:0920 - 00:02:10:13. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:02:1015 - 00:02:12:09. Rev. Trudy. But we don't ever want to be a part of it. 00:02:1211 - 00:02:14:14. Rev. Brittany. Correct. No. For real. 00:02:1416 - 00:02:22:04. Rev. Trudy. I'm like Peter: ‘You're going to—you're washing my feet?!’ Right? Have you been a part of a foot washing before? 00:02:2209 - 00:02:31:06. Rev. Brittany. I have washed the feet of confirmands in early ministry. I have not ever had my feet washed. 00:02:3108 - 00:02:37:14. Rev. Trudy. Now, see, I also would prefer to wash some of these feet than to have someone wash my feet. 00:02:3715 - 00:02:41:04. Rev. Brittany. Correct. I guess the closest would be a pedicure. And I don't even like that as much. You know, I’m a little like … 00:02:4105 - 00:02:44:06. Rev. Trudy. Oh, I do pedicures! I never thought of that. 00:02:4406 - 00:02:46:17. Rev. Brittany. … paint my toes. And let's move on. 00:02:4619 - 00:03:18:04. Rev. Trudy. But yes. Yeah. I find this to be just a really interesting story on so many levels, right? I think we know, in antiquity, washing a weary traveler's feet was a sign of hospitality. Jesus does it a little bit differently here. They've all gathered together, and they're just sitting down or relaxing to have dinner, and Jesus comes around to say, ‘I'm going to wash your feet.’ 00:03:1806 - 00:03:43:17. Rev. Trudy. And usually that happens earlier. Usually, it happens one at a time. It's not a communal kind of experience. So, Jesus seems to be doing something different with what was familiar and trying to instill in us a different understanding, clearly about love. Yeah. Because this whole chapter and John's focus is on love, the new commandment, and all of that kind of stuff. 00:03:4319 - 00:03:48:00. Rev. Trudy. But I'm not exactly sure what to make of it. 00:03:4805 - 00:03:48:20. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:03:4822 - 00:04:00:00. Rev. Trudy. You know, ‘Okay, we could wash people's feet if you want us to, Jesus.’ But there's a bigger message here, I think, than just that act. 00:04:0002 - 00:04:21:00. Rev. Brittany. Correct. I agree. I think that the scripture is a little off putting …. I mean we hear it and it's, ‘Oh, Jesus washed the feet of the disciples.’ But I think it's a little, in modern times, right—and maybe even in antiquity—it sounds a little ridiculous. Yeah, right. It seems a little bit outlandish, a little bit radical. 00:04:2100 - 00:04:40:10. Rev. Brittany. Are there not other ways to express that kind of compassion and care? But I think that, to me, is the point of love: it sometimes doesn't make sense. Yeah. It's outrageous. It's ridiculous. There may be another way to do it, but this is the way that you choose to express it. 00:04:4012 - 00:04:51:10. Rev. Brittany. Love goes out of its way to do something for someone and show them that you care, even when they're uncomfortable with receiving it, you know? 00:04:5111 - 00:05:03:04. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. It kind of seems to me counter to Gary Chapman and the “love languages,” right? 00:05:0305 - 00:05:08:16. Rev. Brittany. Oh, I do know that. It took me a minute. It took me a minute. I'm like, ‘Who is Gary, and what is he talking about?’ But I'm back. 00:05:0820 - 00:05:21:15. Rev. Trudy. I know that it was the whole idea that you need to understand my love language. I need to understand: how do you want me to love you? Yeah, right. I don't know that any of the disciples—they probably all felt like Peter. 00:05:2115 - 00:05:23:06. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:05:2308 - 00:05:37:11. Rev. Trudy. And so, there's an aspect, then, to that: love will make us uncomfortable. Yeah. And it won't always be what we want it to be. But it will make us uncomfortable. 00:05:3712 - 00:05:44:04. Rev. Brittany. For sure! I have a—I don't like receiving gifts. I love receiving gifts, but I don't like receiving gifts. It's very— 00:05:4404 - 00:05:44:16. Rev. Trudy. It's not my— 00:05:4416 - 00:06:07:15. Rev. Brittany. Language. It's not. I'm like, ‘Let's go on a walk. Let's think.’ That's the way I get there. Let's have a conversation. And so, people are like, ‘Oh, no, we want to celebrate you,’ and I feel a little unkind—and I shouldn't—because it's, ‘Thank you for that.’ The same way that Peter is receiving and accepting that—or not receiving—but the same way that Peter is apprehensive to it. 00:06:0717 - 00:06:14:05. Rev. Brittany. I have been apprehensive to that type of love shown to me, right? See, you said it makes you uncomfortable. 00:06:1406 - 00:06:15:10. Rev. Trudy. That's right. That's right. 00:06:1510 - 00:06:37:12. Rev. Brittany. But I do think that, like Peter, I have to be willing to accept the form of love that someone is willing—or that someone is making an effort—to give. And I don't want to conflate that to be, ‘Accept things that make you feel bad,’ right, as cloaked in love. 00:06:3712 - 00:06:42:20. Rev. Brittany. Because that's not it, right? That's not what—right. But when someone is offering me a gift— 00:06:4221 - 00:06:43:23. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. 00:06:4404 - 00:06:48:18. Rev. Brittany. Receive it, even if it is foot washing and I think, ‘You don't need to do that.’ 00:06:4819 - 00:07:05:05. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. I think for me now—and this might be anachronistic—but I look at the act of washing feet, and I feel really vulnerable. I'd rather sit in front of a crowd in my underwear. Okay, well, maybe not! 00:07:0506 - 00:07:08:07. Rev. Brittany. I was about to say, that feels a little vulnerable, too! 00:07:0809 - 00:07:33:06. Rev. Trudy. Right? Yes. I don't know why, but it feels vulnerable. And I imagine it probably wasn't in Jesus' day because their feet were out all the time. But I do think that vulnerability is something that has to be a part of this, because whenever I have been in the service washing somebody else's feet— 00:07:3307 - 00:08:03:09. Rev. Trudy. It really is kind of a sacred thing. Yeah. To hold someone's feet. We don't normally engage with people's feet, right, unless you're a pedicurist. But just to hold their feet and to consider all that they have walked through. And the way they have stood upon them in so many ways, and such a vehicle for so much of life. 00:08:0311 - 00:08:26:08. Rev. Trudy. It's your feet. And to hold them and care for them is almost as though you're holding and caring for the entire life of that person, that whole journey that was there. And for those who let themselves think about us as the foot washers, standing in the place of Christ, it becomes an emotional experience to feel blessed. 00:08:2610 - 00:08:32:04. Rev. Trudy. In all of that. And that vulnerability is definitely a part of love. 00:08:3206 - 00:08:49:01. Rev. Brittany. It really is. I think that you can't receive love and you can't give it if you're not in a vulnerable space, because love is vulnerable. You're putting yourself out there and, you know, you might receive that response back. You might not. It is very vulnerable act. 00:08:4905 - 00:08:50:08. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Exactly. 00:08:5009 - 00:09:05:02. Rev. Brittany. My grandmother had diabetes. And I was a little kid, and I didn't always understand that she had nerve pain in her feet. Yeah. And so, she would sit at the edge of the bed and rub her feet. And then I would go and be, ‘Grandma, do you want me to rub your feet for you?’ 00:09:0503 - 00:09:24:01. Rev. Brittany. And sometimes she would say yes. And I do remember those moments of being, yeah, I just thought I was doing something, spending some time with my grandma, which I was. But it's also, wow, to know that I'm sure I don't know what my little hands did for the nerve pain in her feet. 00:09:2402 - 00:09:25:04. Rev. Brittany. Probably nothing. 00:09:2504 - 00:09:26:19. Rev. Trudy. Oh, probably more than you know! 00:09:2619 - 00:09:34:06. Rev. Brittany. But that act is, I'm sure, something that she remembered and something that I will always remember as well. 00:09:3407 - 00:09:40:00. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, Jesus is here with all of the disciples. 00:09:4001 - 00:09:41:00. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:09:4102 - 00:09:43:17. Rev. Trudy. Including Judas. 00:09:4319 - 00:09:47:17. Rev. Brittany. Right. Wow! What a man. What a man. 00:09:4718 - 00:10:15:03. Rev. Trudy. So, what does it mean then for Jesus to have washed Judas' feet? To actually do that act, right? That gets to the vulnerability. That gets to perhaps the road that Judas decided to take and where his feet would take him. What does it mean to say, ‘I'm going to love you in this moment, even though I know where you're headed?’ 00:10:1505 - 00:10:21:18. Rev. Brittany. Jesus, what a man. That's why I said it: “what a man!” What a guy. 00:10:2120 - 00:10:22:16. Rev. Trudy. Exactly. 00:10:2217 - 00:10:42:12. Rev. Brittany. Because, yeah, I think it's the radical, ridiculous thing that I'm talking about. What? I don't know what it would look like to know someone's going to betray you and love them anyway. I don't know what that's usually. But you don't know when someone's going to betray you. 00:10:4212 - 00:10:59:09. Rev. Brittany. They just happen to do it. But Jesus knew that it was coming, and Jesus loved him anyway. Yeah. And maybe it's that Jesus. His love for Judas expanded well beyond the betrayal and knowing that he had built a relationship with him. And he really did know the heart of Judas. 00:10:5910 - 00:11:00:00. Rev. Trudy. Right. Right. 00:11:0001 - 00:11:02:10. Rev. Brittany. And saw the good in him. 00:11:0210 - 00:11:02:20. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. 00:11:0221 - 00:11:12:12. Rev. Brittany. Even though he made a—Jesus, wouldn’t say it was a mistake—but yeah, even though he made a poor choice. 00:11:1213 - 00:11:18:09. Rev. Trudy. Yes. Yes, but that makes it easy. I think. 00:11:1811 - 00:11:22:18. Rev. Brittany. You know where I stand! 00:11:2219 - 00:11:47:18. Rev. Trudy. Right? Yeah. It makes it easy for us to say. ‘Oh, but Jesus really knew the heart of Judas.’ Well, maybe the heart of Jesus was really selfish. Maybe it was more the heart of Hitler. Right. — Hitler's the other favorite one we pull out every once in a while. — But. Right. It seems to me that there really is something deeper in that whole scenario. 00:11:4720 - 00:12:13:21. Rev. Trudy. Because Jesus is asking us to do that, right? Jesus is a really great guy, but we aren't Jesus. But Jesus asks us to do it anyway, and we won't know whether the Judases in our life really have a kind heart or are evil through and through. And still, that love is something. 00:12:1323 - 00:12:25:00. Rev. Trudy. That's the new commandment: ‘Do just what I've done for you.’ Right? Yeah. These are not easy concepts! 00:12:2501 - 00:12:34:19. Rev. Brittany. They're not. They're not easy. Love is not easy. Especially—on the surface, it's easy when it's easy, it's easy; when it's not, it's not, right? 00:12:3420 - 00:12:36:23. Rev. Trudy. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 00:12:3817 - 00:12:58:09. Rev. Trudy. And truthfully, we stopped short of the kind of love that Jesus is really asking us to be in. Right. We stopped short of being really vulnerable with people. We have to come to really know them and trust them. And we'll throw out tiny little efforts of will it pass this test? 00:12:5810 - 00:13:37:01. Rev. Trudy. Maybe I'll trust you a little bit more, but it's never a full-on, ‘hey, let's just wash your feet right now.’ Right. It's not that fast. And we always put some boundaries around what we do with our love. Yeah. And I don't think that's what Jesus had in mind. And then it gets combined and tangled up with grace and forgiveness, and all of these terms just become this …. We're supposed to be the experts here telling people what we really mean when we talk about. You did a great job on forgiveness, for sure. 00:13:3703 - 00:13:40:17. Rev. Trudy. I'm struggling here with love! 00:13:4017 - 00:13:42:11. Rev. Brittany. Which is very interesting to me. 00:13:4212 - 00:13:43:03. Rev. Trudy. Yeah? 00:13:4305 - 00:13:45:03. Rev. Brittany. It is. It's very interesting because … 00:13:4711 - 00:13:53:02. Rev. Brittany. Love and grace are your thing. Love, grace, and forgiveness are your thing. 00:13:5304 - 00:14:12:17. Rev. Trudy. I try, I think. So, what is the difference between love, grace, and forgiveness? How are they related? Right, we're splitting hairs a little bit because I do think it's a tangled mess. This was the best thing I could think of. This is the best thing I kind of thought: that grace is space. 00:14:1219 - 00:14:14:02. Rev. Brittany. Okay. 00:14:1404 - 00:14:16:00. Rev. Trudy. That love is commitment. 00:14:1601 - 00:14:17:02. Rev. Brittany. Okay. 00:14:1704 - 00:14:19:18. Rev. Trudy. And forgiveness is healing. 00:14:1919 - 00:14:23:10. Rev. Brittany. Okay. Space … 00:14:2312 - 00:14:25:20. Rev. Trudy. Commitment and healing. 00:14:2522 - 00:14:29:22. Rev. Brittany. Okay. Okay. I could get behind it. 00:14:3000 - 00:14:49:09. Rev. Trudy. Yeah, because I think part of what this story tells us is that love is more than just something you say. It is what you do. It is vulnerable. It is ridiculous. It is uncomfortable many times. But it is a commitment, and this is what I am doing because I had said to you, Judas, ‘You are one of us,’ right? 00:14:4909 - 00:15:01:05. Rev. Trudy. Or whatever it is. So, I think it's, it's all of that. Which is love. And we fall short and we get scared. 00:15:0106 - 00:15:13:15. Rev. Brittany. Okay. So, with love, grace, and forgiveness, it sounds as though none of them are conditional. I'm asking, because that, you know? 00:15:1321 - 00:15:21:08. Rev. Trudy. I think we struggle with that. But I do think that is how God is. Yeah, I do. 00:15:2110 - 00:15:33:10. Rev. Brittany. I think God is that way. Yeah. Yeah. But I am not. So yeah, I think that there are some conditions sometimes I don't think that's necessarily the way that I should be. But as a human I do. 00:15:3311 - 00:15:33:23. Rev. Trudy. Right. 00:15:3323 - 00:15:35:06. Rev. Brittany. So very flawed person. 00:15:3509 - 00:16:00:22. Rev. Trudy. Well, and I think, and all the disciples were for Pete's sakes. Jesus chose those people to walk with him. Right. And they were not they didn't have it figured out, but they were committed to the journey. Talking about the journey. Right. And the feet that are walking it, they were committed to take one step closer to having their heart stretched a little bit more. 00:16:0022 - 00:16:31:16. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. To be able to show things a little bit deeper and stronger and whatever. I'm struck in this passage because it talks about Jesus being with them to the end. Right. He loved them to the end. And in Greek, the end can mean ‘telos’, which is the conclusion and the termination of a goal or a fulfillment, right? “Means to an end” is that same kind of thing. 00:16:3118 - 00:16:44:10. Rev. Trudy. But we don't know whether that's what he meant or if he meant that until the end of his life and he knew he was going to the cross, because it's right there in that time frame as well. Or maybe it's both. 00:16:4412 - 00:16:45:03. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:16:4505 - 00:16:55:17. Rev. Trudy. Right. Maybe it was the end of his life, but it was also, in his washing of the feet, the fulfillment of his mission. 00:16:5519 - 00:16:57:04. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:16:5706 - 00:17:13:15. Rev. Trudy. Which, his mission was: to offer us a path to walk, to care for us as we walk, and have that path lead to more love, a stronger, open, bigger heart for all of that. Right. 00:17:1317 - 00:17:28:22. Rev. Brittany. Yeah! I didn't—I've never thought about it in the sense of Jesus inviting us on the journey, too, and caring for us on the journey. That makes—yeah, that's—I can get behind that theological point. 00:17:2822 - 00:17:51:05. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. And this story, comes a few chapters later, than Mary anointing Jesus for burial. Right. So, a similar … with her hair and the feet. Right? Yeah. So, it was I kind of think Jesus got the idea from Mary—just saying maybe. 00:17:5105 - 00:17:54:13. Rev. Brittany. Maybe not how it happens, but I'll keep moving. 00:17:5415 - 00:18:23:11. Rev. Trudy. But in a sense, her preparation for his journey, where the path would end, right, really empowered him to be able to get there. Yeah. And I think about the wedding vows, right? “Till death do us part.” I'm going to love you. And that's why that imagery that's in the New Testament about the church being the bride of Christ is so beautiful. 00:18:2316 - 00:18:25:00. Rev. Trudy. Right. 00:18:2501 - 00:18:25:16. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:18:2518 - 00:18:27:03. Rev. Trudy. All right. 00:18:2705 - 00:18:30:21. Rev. Brittany. I like the wedding vows! I understand where you were going. You see? 00:18:3023 - 00:18:33:10. Rev. Trudy. Well, but to your skeptical face. 00:18:3312 - 00:18:34:06. Rev. Brittany. I'm a skeptic. 00:18:3407 - 00:18:50:20. Rev. Trudy. That kind of love. “Love unto death” is really hard to relate to these days. Super, right? Super absolute. Yeah. It's hard to relate to. It's hard to understand. It's hard to believe in. 00:18:5022 - 00:19:18:12. Rev. Brittany. Yeah, truly, I have seen couples, which has really been beautiful, to watch a husband or wife at the bedside of their lifelong partner, their husband or wife or their spouse, and watch them take their last breath, or to see them caring for them in their last days and wiping their hand and feeding them ice chips, all of those kinds of things. 00:19:1814 - 00:19:19:02. Rev. Trudy. Washing their feet, probably. 00:19:1904 - 00:19:51:22. Rev. Brittany. Washing their feet, of course, bathing them. Yeah. It has been, ‘Oh, wow, it does exist. It is possible,’ people can care for someone in this very vulnerable way, because when someone's dying, they're very vulnerable, right? Yeah. When someone is in a hospital. It's very vulnerable. So, when I go in and I visit someone who's in the hospital, I have to remind myself that I'm going into a space where they don't want me to see them like this, right? 00:19:5200 - 00:20:08:02. Rev. Brittany. Yes, they are ill and they need help, and they need prayer or whatever it is. But I'm going into a very sacred space for them. Yeah. And to pay attention to what that means. And so, I never take that lightly, going into a hospital room. 00:20:0802 - 00:20:08:13. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. 00:20:0813 - 00:20:14:05. Rev. Brittany. Or a skilled nursing or something, but specifically a hospital room is always kind of. 00:20:1407 - 00:20:16:10. Rev. Trudy. Right. Wow. Sacred space. 00:20:1610 - 00:20:16:18. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:20:1619 - 00:20:32:21. Rev. Trudy. And, yeah, when asked, I'm sure the patient would say, ‘No, I'm fine. I don't need a visit. No, don't wash my feet. I'm good. I'm fine.’ Right? But that's what love does: it just loves anyway. 00:20:3221 - 00:20:33:12. Rev. Brittany. Right. 00:20:3314 - 00:20:44:16. Rev. Trudy. Right. Yeah. To make that space that is vulnerable and loved in that vulnerability. Right. 00:20:4418 - 00:21:02:10. Rev. Brittany. And I think the other thing is that Jesus doesn't make it weird. Peter's like, ‘Oh no, you're not going to do it,’ and Jesus isn't trying to condemn him for not doing it, right? But Jesus is like, ‘No—’ 00:21:0212 - 00:21:02:21. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. 00:21:0221 - 00:21:29:17. Rev. Brittany. ‘I need to do this’ Yeah, right. It's because that's it. I don't think that love is a one-way street. I do think that it is a mutual-giving and a mutual-receiving. Yeah. So, I feel it's uncomfortable to be cared for, especially in our society, where we've been conditioned to be so individualistic: ‘I can handle it all on my own.’ 00:21:2917 - 00:21:48:14. Rev. Brittany. ‘I don't need help,’ blah. And we've just figured out ways to kind of separate ourselves from community. Yeah. I think this scripture kind of brings us back to the complexity of community, but the gift that it brings when it brings compassion, that's for sure. 00:21:4814 - 00:22:03:17. Rev. Trudy. When you can get to that place. Honestly, I think some of the strongest friendships and relationships I've had have been based on faith first. Really just knowing, just having something out there that asks more of you. 00:22:0318 - 00:22:04:10. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. 00:22:0412 - 00:22:13:12. Rev. Trudy. Really helps with the relationships that you have with other people. Yeah. Yeah. Did we say anything important about love right here? 00:22:1316 - 00:22:15:00. Rev. Brittany. I think we got many things. 00:22:1500 - 00:22:15:21. Rev. Trudy. We said—okay, good. 00:22:1522 - 00:22:20:03. Rev. Brittany. I think we said many things. I think the people will find what's important for them. 00:22:2003 - 00:22:20:22. Rev. Trudy. I sure hope. 00:22:2022 - 00:22:23:11. Rev. Brittany. So, we're just giving our perspective. 00:22:2312 - 00:22:24:08. Rev. Trudy. There you go. 00:22:2408 - 00:22:25:02. Rev. Brittany. That's all we can do. 00:22:2503 - 00:22:42:07. Rev. Trudy. That's our perspective. There you go. Honestly, there's so much more we could probably say. But I think this story is really, really illustrative of so many aspects of the kind of love God, through Jesus, is helping us try and embrace. 00:22:4208 - 00:22:54:18. Rev. Brittany. Yeah. Yeah. The only thing I would say is that I hope for all of us, that we are both willing to give that kind of love. And when that love shows up for us, that we're willing to receive it as well. 00:22:5419 - 00:22:58:09. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Are you better at giving or receiving? 00:22:5814 - 00:22:59:01. Rev. Brittany. Giving. 00:22:5906 - 00:22:59:22. Rev. Trudy. Yeah. 00:23:0000 - 00:23:00:15. Rev. Brittany. Always. 00:23:0015 - 00:23:04:17. Rev. Trudy. There you go. If, say, I will wash your feet any time. Okay. Get away from me. 00:23:0417 - 00:23:10:17. Rev. Brittany. Okay. See what I'm saying? No. You talked about my shoes on Sunday, too. 00:23:1019 - 00:23:28:21. Rev. Trudy. I did ask for forgiveness. People might not believe that, but I did. There you go. Thank you so much for listening to us. We hope that our ramblings are as fun for you to hear as they are for us to talk about. And we do hope there's a nugget there somewhere that gives you some things to think about. 00:23:2903 - 00:23:47:06. Rev. Trudy. And in case you didn't get any more to think about, I'm going to give you some questions. We would encourage you to find somebody to talk them over with. You're more than welcome to be a part of our Patreon group and put your thoughts on that channel. Or you can come to church if you're in the San Diego area. 00:23:4707 - 00:24:21:08. Rev. Trudy. We have Convergence on Sundays at 11:45 AM. That's where they talk about this podcast. But anyway, I have questions. Reach out to me. These are the questions I have for you about this podcast. First one: When has love called you to do something that seemed ridiculous or unreasonable to others? Number two: What makes it difficult or uncomfortable for you to let others love and care for you? 00:24:2110 - 00:24:53:00. Rev. Trudy. And number three: Who has shown you a kind of love that changed the way you understand love? Happy thinking about it. We'll see you next time. Thanks for joining us. Bye. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.