00:00:00:11 - 00:00:26:01 Rev. Trudy People might throw you away, but God will never throw you away, and God will never throw away the people who have hurt you. This is what makes forgiveness complicated and possible. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their music on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:03 - 00:00:50:09 Rev. Trudy Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. It is week two of our sermon series: What We Really Mean When We Talk About ... 2.0. And today we are talking about forgiveness and trying to really understand what it might mean as we talk about it. And so, we are using the story of Joseph from Genesis. Genesis 45 is our Scripture lesson today. 00:00:50:09 - 00:01:15:04 Rev. Trudy His story is a long, dramatic, complicated one. And so, you'll only be able to hear a little bit of it. But I think you'll get the gist. Joseph was one of the sons of Jacob, the prodigy that was promised to Abraham in the covenant. And Joseph had brothers who were jealous of him, and they sold him into slavery, and they gave him up for dead. 00:01:15:04 - 00:01:39:07 Rev. Trudy But Joseph actually ends up being a dream interpreter for the Pharaoh of Egypt. And as he is more and more successful with that, the Pharaoh gives them more and more responsibility, trusts him a little bit more, and believes what he's saying so much more, such that Joseph now is part of the ruling class, if you will, of Egypt. 00:01:39:07 - 00:02:13:16 Rev. Trudy And currently the land is experiencing a famine. But Joseph's dream interpretation warned Pharaoh and Pharaoh prepared. Pharaoh began to stockpile some resources. And now Joseph and Joseph's brothers. Excuse me. Come to Egypt to see if Egypt might help Israel with some of those resources. And then I think I got it all. I think so. And then we hear the scripture that we're focusing on today. 00:02:13:17 - 00:02:40:16 Rev. Trudy This is Genesis 45, verses three through 15. And still, it's a pretty long passage. Here's what it says: “Joseph said to his brothers, ‘I am Joseph. Is my father still alive?’ But his brothers could not answer him. They were so dismayed at his presence. Then Joseph said to his brothers, ‘Come closer to me.’ And as they came closer, 00:02:40:18 - 00:03:04:00 Rev. Trudy Joseph said, ‘I am your brother Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. And now, oh, do not be distressed or angry with yourselves, because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life. For the famine has been in the land for these two years, and there are five more years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvest. 00:03:04:02 - 00:03:32:21 Rev. Trudy God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant on the earth, and to keep alive for you many survivors. So, it was not you,’ Joseph says, ‘who sent me here, but God, he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt. Hurry and go up to my father, and say to him, thus says your son Joseph, God has made me Lord of all Egypt. 00:03:32:22 - 00:03:55:06 Rev. Trudy Come down to me. Do not delay. You shall settle in the land of Goshen, and you shall be near me, you and your children and your children's children, as well as your flocks, your herds, and all that you have. I will provide for you there, since there are five more years of famine to come, so that you and your household and all that you have will not come to poverty. 00:03:55:11 - 00:04:20:01 Rev. Trudy And now your eyes and the eyes of my brother Benjamin see that it is my own mouth that speaks to you. You must tell my father how greatly I am honored in Egypt and all that you have seen. Hurry and bring my father down here.’ Then Joseph fell upon his brother Benjamin's neck and wept, while Benjamin wept upon his neck. 00:04:20:02 - 00:04:30:11 Rev. Trudy And he kissed all his brothers and wept upon them. And after that his brothers talked with him.” 00:04:30:13 - 00:04:31:15 Rev. Trudy There's the story. 00:04:31:15 - 00:04:32:15 Rev. Brittany There's the story. 00:04:32:16 - 00:04:35:09 Rev. Trudy We think it's about forgiveness. 00:04:35:11 - 00:04:40:03 Rev. Brittany I think it could be. It could be. Sure it could be. Yeah. 00:04:40:09 - 00:05:02:07 Rev. Trudy It's striking because Joseph, you know, there was a lot of history between him and his brothers. And I know a lot of people, myself included, that will hold on to a few grudges. Right. But he is just overwhelming with, "No, no, no. It's okay. Come. It's me. It's me. I still love you," kind of stuff, right? 00:05:02:09 - 00:05:05:00 Rev. Trudy He should be angry. 00:05:05:01 - 00:05:31:06 Rev. Brittany Yeah, he should be. I mean, I think I would be probably. I think the difference is that his life was better without them in a way, you know? And it wasn't like he was sold into slavery in Egypt and suffered a great deal. Yeah, actually his life was more beneficial. And so I think that, in my opinion—I don't know, I wasn't there. 00:05:31:11 - 00:05:44:21 Rev. Brittany But my theological imagination moves me to think that Joseph understood it a little differently because of the privilege that he began to have once he got where he was going. Yeah. 00:05:44:22 - 00:06:08:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah, absolutely. That makes forgiveness pretty easy. If you can rise above whatever it was that did something bad to you, that would hold you down, right? If you can rise above it, then sure, whatever, I can, you know. But still, he doesn't have that, "Well, look at me now," kind of thing. It feels a little softer. 00:06:08:23 - 00:06:10:22 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:06:11:00 - 00:06:22:20 Rev. Trudy But still forgiving if you aren't seeing good results out of what has happened has got to be incredibly hard. 00:06:22:21 - 00:06:41:11 Rev. Brittany I think forgiveness is a very difficult thing. Yeah. All the way around. Yeah. I don't even like talking about it, honestly. It's not my thing to talk about. I know it makes me very uncomfortable in a lot of ways. Yeah, I know they say that forgiveness is for you. It's not for the other person. 00:06:41:13 - 00:06:49:15 Rev. Brittany And I agree with that, I do. I just also think that forgiveness is much more complicated than we would like to believe it is. 00:06:49:16 - 00:06:50:12 Rev. Trudy Right? Right. 00:06:50:13 - 00:07:00:01 Rev. Brittany And this scripture makes it just so. It makes it all so simple, and you tie it in a bow, and Joseph then saves his family, and yay! 00:07:00:01 - 00:07:18:08 Rev. Trudy Well, let's unpack it a little bit. You know, clearly. Right. I think Joseph has changed too, right, because he was kind of a snot. He was a little brat. He was what? He stole the coat, right? Steal it. Oh. That's right. His mother made it for you. 00:07:18:09 - 00:07:21:02 Rev. Brittany Yeah. And so, he thought he was highfalutin. 00:07:21:05 - 00:07:25:23 Rev. Trudy He was highfalutin. Because, you know, “my mom's favorite,” right? You know, that would drive any sibling crazy. 00:07:26:00 - 00:07:31:11 Rev. Brittany Correct. Yeah. I kind of blame their parents, to be honest, you know? 00:07:31:12 - 00:07:35:12 Rev. Trudy Well, you know, mama shouldn't have done something just for him. Correct. 00:07:35:13 - 00:07:36:17 Rev. Brittany Right. I blame his parents. 00:07:36:18 - 00:08:05:06 Rev. Trudy There you go. Well, there's a lot of things like that that go on. I mean, I think there's a lot of family dynamics that you can get hung up on. And I think it's probably families, the hardest people to forgive. Right. Yeah. For sure. And so, he was a snot, but he wasn't anymore. And I imagine whatever he experienced at the hands of the brothers humbled him greatly. 00:08:05:08 - 00:08:31:05 Rev. Trudy He was imprisoned for a while, and it was a humbling station to be under Pharaoh and be subject to whatever it was he wanted and to do the work for him. But somehow, he made that—he accommodated and was blessed by it. 00:08:31:08 - 00:08:31:19 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:08:31:20 - 00:08:59:20 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah. He still could have he still could have seen his brothers and said, “You know, well, look at me. You did this. You don't get any resources,” right? But he still wanted to be reconciled. I think I think maybe that's part of the change that we see in the Joseph story, that he was a brat. His brothers were horrible. 00:08:59:22 - 00:09:05:05 Rev. Trudy He changed, kind of owned his brattiness. Maybe. 00:09:05:06 - 00:09:06:13 Rev. Brittany Maybe. Yeah. 00:09:06:17 - 00:09:08:06 Rev. Trudy Or at least grew out of it. 00:09:09:03 - 00:09:25:09 Rev. Trudy And realized he still missed his siblings. Yeah. And for, however, the family dynamic dictated their relationship. He missed them. Yeah. I think that's clear in this, right? 00:09:25:10 - 00:09:58:10 Rev. Brittany I think so, I think like essentially, to me, what you're saying is a bit of like repentance in a way that Joseph has like maybe turned away from his own bratty or this high and mighty ideal that he's had because he's been humbled by imprisonment and then also humbled by the fact that he was a prisoner and once enslaved and now is working with the Pharaoh and, you know, able to do things that other people aren't able to do. 00:09:58:12 - 00:10:28:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. There was one commentary that had this quote, and I apologize, I didn't even take note of the author, but he says this, talking about the repentance piece of it: "They have all been humbled by the trials and tribulations of life that have brought them closer to their true selves." Yeah. Right. It was humbling for Joseph to have been at Pharaoh's beck and call. 00:10:28:00 - 00:10:41:00 Rev. Trudy It was humbling for the brothers to come to Pharaoh and say, "We need your help." Yeah. Right. And I think humility has got to be a part of forgiveness. 00:10:41:02 - 00:10:42:08 Rev. Brittany I agree. Yeah. 00:10:42:09 - 00:10:46:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah, on both sides. If it's really going to work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:46:23 - 00:11:24:18 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean, it's complicated, I think. You know, I know we're supposed to do it, and I know that God forgives us all the time for the things that we don't quite get right. Yeah. But I still think it's very, like you said. I think when family has hurt you, it's a little different than when friends or people from the outside hurt you, because it's almost like they know exactly what to do and what to say because they've been around you for your whole life. 00:11:24:19 - 00:11:25:07 Rev. Brittany You know. 00:11:25:08 - 00:11:28:17 Rev. Trudy They know your vulnerability, correct. And they know how to poke you. 00:11:28:18 - 00:11:55:22 Rev. Brittany Correct. And so, yeah. You know, and it's not like Joseph is sold into slavery by people he doesn't know. These are his brothers. Like, same mother, same father, grew up in the house together, ate meals together, did chores together. And yeah. You know, to just think that like—and it was him by himself, you know, it wasn't like him and another brother. 00:11:55:22 - 00:11:59:23 Rev. Brittany So, all 11 of you all, like, did this to me. 00:12:00:00 - 00:12:03:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. That seems now that one of you could have said, “Hey, wait, guys.” 00:12:03:11 - 00:12:28:22 Rev. Brittany Right. Nobody stuck up for me. No one said anything. So, like, I think of Joseph as a saint in many ways, because I don't think that I would be able to do that in the same way. I mean, I think that his ability to move forward obviously was a part of the blessing. And I think that him being able to 00:12:29:00 - 00:12:57:13 Rev. Brittany acknowledge the fact that, like, “What you guys meant for evil, God turned into good.” You know, I think that's a beautiful lesson of forgiveness. I just still think that it's so complicated when the pain is so deep, you know, and there's this idea that forgiveness requires forgetting in a way, you know, and I don't think that that's the case, but we're kind of inundated with that sense of, like, “Let it go!” 00:12:57:14 - 00:12:58:23 Rev. Trudy And it's like, right. 00:12:59:01 - 00:13:07:05 Rev. Brittany I don't know if I can let it go if it's been imprinted in my brain and in my heart, and it's a part of a trauma that I've experienced. 00:13:07:07 - 00:13:34:00 Rev. Trudy Well, I think part of this story really is, as that quote I said, the trials and tribulations Joseph went through it. Yeah. And who knows what his brothers experienced in the famine, right? Right. They were humbled. They were going through it. And, you know, as the Bible would suggest, it is God's providence that brought them together in order to save each other. 00:13:34:00 - 00:13:39:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. So. 00:13:39:03 - 00:13:42:23 Rev. Trudy I don't know that any of it was forgotten. 00:13:43:00 - 00:13:43:14 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:13:43:15 - 00:14:17:04 Rev. Trudy But it was maybe put in a different place, essentially in the place of God's activity. Right. Right. Yeah. This scripture passage is one of the readings for the season of Epiphany, which is kind of interesting. We think of usually Epiphany as, you know, the wise men and the baptism of Jesus. But this Old Testament reading offers the epiphany, the revelation of God, and it's connected with God's providence. 00:14:17:05 - 00:14:34:01 Rev. Trudy You know, Joseph says, you know you mean it for evil, but God meant it for good or turned it into good. However you want to look at that and that providence is something that I think might help with forgiveness. Yeah. Do you think? 00:14:34:02 - 00:14:36:00 Rev. Brittany I think so. I think it can. 00:14:36:01 - 00:14:36:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:14:36:23 - 00:15:02:02 Rev. Brittany I think that hindsight is always 20/20. I think that when things happen in the moment, it's very hard to understand why they're happening or, like, what was the purpose behind it. I think when you are out of the situation and you're on the other side of it, you can always look back and have a different understanding of why those things occurred. 00:15:02:03 - 00:15:14:18 Rev. Brittany Right. I don't think that everything happens for a reason. I think that's a really toxic way, for sure, in life. But I do think that in time you can find meaning behind the things that have happened. 00:15:14:20 - 00:15:40:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I think that's a better way of saying it, because, yeah, the purpose of what Joseph's brothers did to him was to get back at him. And if he died, oh well. Right. But the hindsight allows us to see that God was working in that moment. Even so, to try and, I don't know, bring Joseph to a different place. 00:15:40:18 - 00:15:49:00 Rev. Trudy Maybe working in Joseph's brothers. I mean. But that's the idea of providence. There's something at work that is going to be better. 00:15:49:02 - 00:16:13:11 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I think that Joseph's brothers threw him away, but it's like a sign that God never did, right? Yeah, that's when you can kind of see it in that respect and see that, like, oh, you were just broken. You all were broken little boys who didn't have, right, your wits about you or weren't emotionally intelligent enough to deal with your pain. 00:16:13:11 - 00:16:39:08 Rev. Brittany And so, your response was to throw me away. But God never did. You know, and I think that's something that I can get behind and like understanding how trauma works and how people respond to it, and also realizing that no matter what happens, no matter what, no matter how people treat you or what they say about you, that's not what God thinks, and that's not what God says, and that's not who God is. 00:16:39:09 - 00:16:59:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. So, forgiveness is such a central notion in Christianity. I mean, it is right up there, right up there. And I don't think we do a very good job of it. 00:16:59:11 - 00:17:27:13 Rev. Trudy Tell me, tell you something you don't already know. Right. Yeah. “God's reconciling movement in the world still and always hinges on forgiveness. In forgiveness, the wronged one is transformed from the critic of the world to a co-creator with God of a brand-new world.” 00:17:27:15 - 00:17:31:02 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:17:31:04 - 00:17:52:01 Rev. Trudy That was part of the reading that I had done. “God's reconciling movement in the world still and always hinges on forgiveness. In forgiveness, the wronged one is transformed from a critic of the world into a co-creator with God of a brand-new world.” 00:17:52:03 - 00:17:56:15 Rev. Brittany Okay. I mean… 00:17:56:17 - 00:18:15:14 Rev. Trudy You're not sure. So, what does that look like? What does that feel like? I mean, I think you nailed it early on: The forgiveness is often just for us to move on with our life. And I can see that in Joseph's story, you know, he had to let go. He had other things to worry about, like staying alive in prison. 00:18:15:16 - 00:18:26:22 Rev. Trudy And so, you know, letting go with the abundance around him all, you know, that was easy. 00:18:27:00 - 00:18:29:01 Rev. Trudy It's not always easy. 00:18:29:03 - 00:18:32:06 Rev. Brittany No, it's not. 00:18:32:08 - 00:18:35:05 Rev. Trudy I'm just saying the same thing. It's not easy. 00:18:35:06 - 00:18:47:07 Rev. Brittany Especially when, like, again, I think that it's easy as someone like, you know, cut you off in traffic. Okay. I can forgive you for that. 00:18:47:08 - 00:18:47:15 Rev. Trudy No, I’ll track them down … 00:18:47:15 - 00:18:48:11 Rev. Brittany You know? 00:18:48:12 - 00:18:48:15 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:18:48:18 - 00:18:49:07 Rev. Brittany I'm sorry. 00:18:49:08 - 00:18:49:22 Rev. Trudy You know. 00:18:50:03 - 00:18:53:01 Rev. Brittany It's easier to me if someone … 00:18:53:03 - 00:18:56:22 Rev. Trudy I don't really. Let me just clarify that I don't really. 00:18:56:23 - 00:18:57:17 Rev. Brittany She's not, sorry. 00:18:57:18 - 00:18:58:05 Rev. Trudy Go ahead. 00:18:58:07 - 00:19:20:00 Rev. Brittany You know, a vindicator in that way? Vigilante. I think that there are certain things that you can forgive people for. I can forgive you for stepping on my shoe. I can forgive you for, you know, again, cutting me off in traffic. There are some things that imprint in the heart, in the mind, that change you. You know, Joseph has changed when his brothers throw him into slavery. 00:19:20:01 - 00:19:40:18 Rev. Brittany Like, he is changed. There are things that happen in life. If your family doesn't accept you for who you are and you're LGBTQIA, like, that's a trauma, you know, and that takes a lot to work through and deal with. And especially, you know, his brothers come back to him. A lot of people don't have folks who have apologized, right. 00:19:40:19 - 00:20:01:19 Rev. Brittany And so, they hold on to this deep hurt and pain because it's like, “Well, they've just moved on with their life. And now I'm here to fix myself and deal with some of that trauma.” There are people who have been violated, you know, as children and, you know, how do you move forward and forgive in those situations? 00:20:01:19 - 00:20:17:07 Rev. Brittany So, I think that, like, the indiscretion depends. There are certain things that are very like, “Oh, I can move past that. I can have a conversation about that.” And there are some things that are like, you know, you hear it in your head, or you remember it, and it... 00:20:17:09 - 00:20:17:18 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:20:17:19 - 00:20:24:14 Rev. Brittany I don't think that people want to hold on to it. I think they would much rather be able to zap themselves out of the memory. 00:20:24:15 - 00:20:27:05 Rev. Trudy For sure. But it's working itself out. 00:20:27:06 - 00:20:52:10 Rev. Brittany It, it, it really does. You know. Yeah. And so, I think that sometimes in the church and as Christians, we just have this idea that forgiveness is easy and that it's just like once you do it, it's a one-and-done thing. And I think that forgiveness is like an all-the-time thing. Like the same way that I don't think someone heals from trauma. 00:20:52:11 - 00:21:21:23 Rev. Brittany I think you are always healing. I think forgiveness is … you're always forgiving, and you're always trying to work through it. And I think if we explained it in that way, as opposed to, like, "Oh, you forgive it and you let it go," then I think that people who struggle with the feelings that have been left behind, the residue of that type of trauma, would be able to maybe move through it a little bit differently if it wasn't just like this one-and-done kind of thing. 00:21:22:00 - 00:21:22:08 Rev. Brittany Absolutely. 00:21:22:12 - 00:21:57:23 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of work. It's continual. You have to do it again and again and again. But when you get to that place where you know that you are better, I think part of what this story offers is that there could be the possibility that you could extend some of that work that you have done, to another person, to the one who has wronged you, in the hopes that they might come out of whatever caused them to do what they did. 00:21:58:00 - 00:22:01:03 Rev. Brittany I think that's beautiful. 00:22:01:05 - 00:22:03:09 Rev. Trudy I don't know how else you transform the world. 00:22:03:09 - 00:22:04:10 Rev. Brittany I don't either. 00:22:04:13 - 00:22:34:19 Rev. Trudy I don't know how else you transform the world. You become a co-creator with God, who created everything and called it good. I don't know how you get beyond the damage we do to one another if we can't allow for the other person who has done horrific things to actually repent and be reformed, which is all about forgiveness, right? 00:22:34:21 - 00:23:04:10 Rev. Trudy And I am … and for many people, I will let God do the forgiving because I can't do that. For the large societal ones, I've been really lucky. I don't have any trauma in my life. And so, I don't have anything that I need to—anyone that I really need to forgive at the depths of what we are talking about. 00:23:04:12 - 00:23:32:00 Rev. Trudy And so, when I imagine myself or what they've gone through, I don't know that I could do it. I don't know that I could do it. But even just allowing that God could. And if Joseph's brothers would have come to him while he was in the prison cell with repentance, saying, "Please forgive us," I think that would have affected him as well. 00:23:32:01 - 00:23:46:07 Rev. Trudy Right. So, I guess I really do think the only way we're going to honor humanity in the way God would have us is to really work on this forgiveness stuff. 00:23:46:09 - 00:23:48:03 Rev. Brittany I don't disagree. 00:23:48:05 - 00:24:13:09 Rev. Brittany I think that I have trauma from various instances in my life, and while I don't wish any bad thing to happen to the people who have caused me trauma, I also don't want to be in relationship with them. For sure. You know, I … you can stay over there and do the thing that you need to do. And, you know, I think God is the God of us all. 00:24:13:09 - 00:24:39:18 Rev. Brittany And God loves you the same way that God loves me. However, I'm okay with you living in Israel and me staying in Egypt because I'm okay over here. This is beautiful, that there was this ability for both sides, the brothers and Joseph, to come together. Sometimes that's not possible. And so, I think that, you know, I do believe that God is a forgiving God. 00:24:39:18 - 00:24:59:18 Rev. Brittany I do believe that God is a gracious God. I do believe that God is a loving God unconditionally. I do believe all of those things, and still, I am not… So I release you to God and whatever it is that you and God are working on, may you be changed in that process. I just don't think that I can. 00:24:59:19 - 00:25:26:06 Rev. Brittany I would be able to be in right relationship with people who aren't right with themselves or the God that they serve, but God is, you know, always working. You know what I mean? So. Right. Yeah, I think that forgiveness doesn't have to be reconciliation. It can be moving forward. It can be taking the things that have happened, as awful as they have been, and finding meaning and new understanding for yourself and the experiences that you had. 00:25:26:08 - 00:25:42:11 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I also don't think that it automatically means that you have to be in relationship with people who have done those things to you, and I don't think that it means that you don't have to be in relationship. I think it's a continuum. You know, I think forgiveness is not just this one thing that you do. 00:25:42:11 - 00:25:53:11 Rev. Brittany I think that people have to make meaning out of it for themselves. And there's a spectrum, you know, as to what it will look like for them and how they will navigate all of those things, if that makes any sense. 00:25:53:12 - 00:26:00:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Do you ever get over trauma? Does one ever get over trauma? Yeah. Yeah. 00:26:01:00 - 00:26:17:01 Rev. Brittany It's a lifelong process that you will work through. Trauma is something that stays with you forever. But it doesn't have the same sting; it shouldn't, as you work through it, you know. And so, there are things that have happened to me when I was a very little girl that I can still remember very vividly. 00:26:17:02 - 00:26:44:06 Rev. Brittany Am I over it? I don't think that it affects my day to day, but I do think that it's changed me, you know, in that way. A trigger will come up, or a name or anything can come up, and I have to, like, “Oh, okay.” I'm not right back there, but I remember it, you know, and I think that trauma is just like a memory, you know, and I don't think you lose the memory. 00:26:44:06 - 00:26:57:14 Rev. Brittany So, I don't think you ever get over trauma. I think you work through it. I think that you continue to heal through it. And like I said, I feel like it's lifelong. It's not a one and done kind of thing. Right? It's forever. 00:26:57:15 - 00:27:21:17 Rev. Trudy Right? I don't know how I feel about this story having such a happy ending. Yeah, especially when you consider, you know, the next thing we hear about the progeny of Abraham is that a new pharaoh comes along, and they don't know who Joseph was. And they spent 400 years in slavery. 00:27:21:18 - 00:27:22:08 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:27:22:09 - 00:27:29:12 Rev. Trudy Right. And it's not until 00:27:29:14 - 00:27:39:02 Rev. Trudy God hears the cries. It kind of came a little late in the game, right? I didn't know what to do with that. 00:27:39:04 - 00:27:41:03 Rev. Brittany It's all complicated. It's all. 00:27:41:03 - 00:27:42:02 Rev. Trudy Very complicated. 00:27:42:02 - 00:27:43:23 Rev. Brittany And I think that if… 00:27:43:23 - 00:28:11:14 Rev. Brittany if, when, we try to simplify it, I think we don't do humanity the justice that we're deserving because it is complicated. You can have a really great 40 years, and then things happen, and they're not so great, you know. And so, like, God is still in the midst of it, but it's just not as easy to put into a box and move on to the next thing and put it off on the shelf, you know. 00:28:11:16 - 00:28:18:01 Rev. Brittany Sure. So, I think I think it's hard. It is hard. I think it's really hard. 00:28:18:07 - 00:28:22:04 Rev. Trudy So yeah, it's hard and yet it's central. 00:28:22:10 - 00:28:33:01 Rev. Brittany Exactly. Yeah. I think that's staying humanity. Right. Isn't that what it means to be human? That things are hard, and usually the hardest things are what. 00:28:33:01 - 00:28:34:00 Rev. Trudy We need most. 00:28:34:00 - 00:28:37:02 Rev. Brittany We need most, and what makes us who we are. 00:28:37:04 - 00:28:39:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I'm not sure we solved anything. 00:28:39:22 - 00:28:41:15 Rev. Brittany I don't know if we were supposed to. 00:28:41:16 - 00:28:42:21 Rev. Trudy That's a good point. 00:28:42:22 - 00:28:43:14 Rev. Brittany I don't know if we were supposed to. 00:28:43:14 - 00:28:48:12 Rev. Trudy There you go! We've given you a lot to think about, I'm sure. 00:28:48:14 - 00:29:08:11 Rev. Brittany And we hope that you will think about them. We have a few questions that we'd like for you to ponder in your own time. Or maybe talk with some folks that are around you in your life. Our first question is: How does it feel for you to be forgiven? And when you forgive others, what does that feel like? 00:29:08:13 - 00:29:33:00 Rev. Brittany Second question is: What does it take to experience forgiveness? And the third question is: How can we imagine God's activity in a flawed world? There's much to think about, there is much to ponder, and there's much to pontificate. And so, we hope that you'll spend some time doing all of those things. Will we see you next time? Yep. 00:29:33:00 - 00:29:49:09 Rev. Trudy Bye, bye everyone. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.