00: 00: 00: 18 - 00: 00: 28: 13
Rev. Trudy.
Grace is not just a name or a before-dinner prayer. Jonah is not just a children's story. It's a joke on us and our thoughts on grace. I hope you'll listen. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, what it has to do with us.

00: 00: 28: 15 - 00: 01: 01: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. We are glad you are joining us. We are starting a brand new sermon series. It is another 2. 0 series, meaning we have done something this before last year and it felt so good and there's so much more to say. We're doing something similar again this time these weeks. That is, we are answering the question, “what we really mean when we talk about…”

00: 01: 01: 12 - 00: 01: 31: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
Today our topic of conversation is grace. What is it we really mean when we talk about grace? I'm glad you're joining us. I'm here with Rev. Dr. Hannah Ka. It's been a while since we've been together. We've had some wonderful interviews and conversations with laypeople in the church, that's been lovely. I’ve got to thank some of our Patreon members, especially those who have been paying contributors to this podcast through Patreon from the very beginning.

00: 01: 31: 10 - 00: 01: 54: 02.
Rev. Trudy.
So, I want to send a shout out to Barb and Sabrina and Danica and Laurie. Thank you so much, because we're having fun doing this, we are so glad that you're having enough fun and getting enough food for thought to want to support us. Thank you so very much. Okay, I've already talked too much. Let's get going.

00: 01: 54: 03 - 00: 02: 26: 17.
Rev. Trudy.
This is: What We Really Mean When We Talk About Grace. In order for us to think about grace, we're using the story of Jonah. So, I am reading to you this morning, the very beginning, the first three verses, Jonah 1:1-3. This is what it says: “Now the word of the Lord came to Jonah, son of Amittai, saying, ‘Go at once to Nineveh, that great city, cry out against it, for their wickedness has come up before me.’

00: 02: 26: 19 - 00: 02: 51: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
Jonah set out to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. He went down to Joppa and found a ship going to Tarshish. He paid his fare, went on board to go with them to Tarshish.” How many times can we emphasize he's not going to Nineveh and away from the presence of the Lord? I love this story.

00: 02: 51: 12 - 00: 03: 04: 15.
Rev. Trudy.
I love this story. Because how often have I felt God, you want me to go here?! I'm going here. I'm sorry. That's just not in the cards. I cannot.

00: 03: 04: 15 - 00: 03: 11: 02.
Rev. Hannah.
I identify with Jonah, resonate with him not wanting to go over God is sending me to go.

00: 03: 11: 03 - 00: 03: 30: 13.
Rev. Trudy.
One of my first classes in preaching. We had a guest preacher come in and preached on Jonah for all of us seminary students who were going to be in churches where we were told to go serve. He talked about Jonah's being the pastor who was appointed to a new church.

00: 03: 30: 14 - 00: 03: 31: 13.
Rev. Hannah.
A boy.

00: 03: 33: 03 - 00: 03: 39: 05.
Rev. Trudy.
He didn't really want to go to that new church. Okay. That's how we look at this. Tell us more about Jonah.

00: 03: 39: 06 - 00: 04: 06: 00.
Rev. Hannah.
Playing with the historical background of the text. Although Jonah, the book of Jonah came to this, its final form much later, it's set in a time around eighth century before the common era. Okay. Does that ring a bell? Around the time that the northern Kingdom fell to the Assyrian Empire?

00: 04: 06: 00 - 00: 04: 19: 04.
Rev. Hannah.
Then I also digging through some of the commentaries that I read, Jonah also means dove.

00: 04: 19: 20 - 00: 04: 22: 22.
Rev. Hannah.
Dove. Dove. The dove, peace. Yes.

00: 04: 22: 22 - 00: 04: 24: 09.
Rev. Trudy.
Oh, wow. So.

00: 04: 24: 11 - 00: 04: 50: 07.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. The peace bird was used as a metaphor for Israel in Hosea, in Psalms, in other places in Old Testament. I began to imagining Jonah meaning the Israelites who fell to the Assyrian attack and is now, God is sending them to Nineveh, which is a major city of Assyrian empire. Okay.

00: 04: 50: 09 - 00: 04: 55: 08.
Rev. Trudy.
I didn't remember. If I ever learned that. Oh, that's good. Okay. Keep talking.

00: 04: 55: 10 - 00: 05: 23: 03.
Rev. Hannah.
Enemy Israel had good reasons to hate, not to … God is sending Israel or Jonah, whether there is a person or a group to those people who actually invade into their space and brought them destruction. They are the last people that Jonah or Israel would want to extend grace to.

00: 05: 23: 05 - 00: 05: 54: 06.
Rev. Trudy.
Wow. That is really profound. I'm just thinking about all the things that Jonah does to try and not do what God has asked. And we understand it now. One of the commentaries I had read had suggested that this might be a joke. Because he says this story, as it's set up, is kind of formatted, is structured as a joke.

00: 05: 54: 06 - 00: 06: 27: 20.
Rev. Trudy.
There's a callback line that happens again and again, which is, what? What the joke begins with … here it is, God saying, “Jonah, I want you to go to Nineveh.” That is repeated not just once, not just twice. It's over and over again. There's a comic rule of three. I learned that the joke gets the greatest laughs when the situation comes around three times.

00: 06: 27: 22 - 00: 06: 58: 23.
Rev. Trudy.
Okay, think about this story. We read it. We read most passages of scripture with such seriousness. When you think about it, there's an outrageous premise of this story. There is a reluctant prophet. We've never really known a reluctant prophet before. There's been eager prophets.

00: 06: 59: 00 - 00: 07: 13: 00.
Rev. Trudy.
Eager in that they want to save themselves and they need the people to do that. There's always been maybe, “I’m sorry I have to say this” kind of thing. Jonah doesn't even want to say it.

00: 07: 13: 01 - 00: 07: 14: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
Doesn't even go near.

00: 07: 14: 09 - 00: 07: 45: 09.
Rev. Trudy.
Doesn't even go near. That's right. But God still calls Jonah. Then there's an outrageous response. He goes the other way, he gets on the ship and they encounter a storm. Then the storm demands, the people on the ship, the Gentile sailors want Jonah to get off the ship because, he's making the storm happen and he gets tossed off.

00: 07: 45: 09 - 00: 07: 49: 19.
Rev. Trudy.
Jonah is okay with that because he would ...

00: 07: 49: 21 - 00: 07: 50: 18.
Rev. Hannah.
Die in the sea.

00: 07: 50: 19 - 00: 08: 19: 12.
Rev. Trudy.
He would rather die in the sea. Then he gets followed by a whale, or so we say. God asks again once he spit out of the whale’s belly, of the fish's belly, “Will you go?” again. Then he goes and he talks about Nineveh and then Nineveh repents and God saves them.

00: 08: 19: 13 - 00: 08: 29: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
Then Jonah, he kind of says that … he kind of says that joke. “Well, just kill me now.”

00: 08: 29: 11 - 00: 08: 31: 06.
Rev. Hannah.
“I would rather die now.”

00: 08: 31: 08 - 00: 09: 03: 02.
Rev. Trudy.
Exactly. Because that's what he does. He says, “I'm gonna go. I'm going to wait here for a worm to eat me.” Sorry. It's interesting to think of this story as a joke because it is funny. There are elements of it that are just outrageous, I don't quite understand the point. If it is, especially given the background that you had offered.

00: 09: 03: 08 - 00: 09: 15: 13.
Rev. Trudy.
What except perhaps that when things are going so horrifically, you might as well just laugh.

00: 09: 15: 15 - 00: 09: 16: 10.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes.

00: 09: 16: 16 - 00: 09: 19: 12.
Rev. Trudy.
There's more to it than that. Yes.

00: 09: 19: 14 - 00: 09: 53: 04.
Rev. Hannah.
Now that I hear your story, I get to think of Jonah as a collective Israel and Nineveh as collective Assyrian people. They don't want to be in relationship. Jonah also didn't want to be in relationship with God, he decided to flee from that presence. Wherever he turned to, whether that's the opposite direction or not, God showed up.

00: 09: 53: 06 - 00: 10: 32: 21.
Rev. Hannah.
Even in the belly of the big fish, or in this falling sea, or in the land of Nineveh, God showed up and made the impossible relationship possible. Thinking about people of Nineveh, a great city, listening to this prophet who is from a fallen nation and turning their way from what they were called wickedness and building a religion, restoring relationship with God or something.

00: 10: 32: 23 - 00: 10: 38: 07.
Rev. Hannah.
He goes under the what do you call the shade?

00: 10: 38: 08 - 00: 10: 44: 15.
Rev. Trudy.
The fig leaf or the yes, that God provided while he waited for the worm to eat them.

00: 10: 44: 17 - 00: 10: 55: 21.
Rev. Hannah.
Even their God was present, there was no way for him to escape or anyone, any nation, to escape the grace of God.

00: 10: 56: 14 - 00: 11: 04: 02.
Rev. Hannah.
I see a little more universal message about God, the universal scope of God.

00: 11: 04: 03 - 00: 11: 05: 22.
Rev. Trudy.
Definitely.

00: 11: 06: 00 - 00: 11: 16: 11.
Rev. Hannah.
Being with the Assyrians and Israelites, Jonah and whoever comes into the scene.

00: 11: 16: 13 - 00: 11: 43: 08.
Rev. Trudy.
Well, there's something in this story that is mimicked in other places in Scripture. Where the good people, if you want to call good and bad, the good people who are doing what God has asked them to do, or the other right, which boy, I think I would have been mad at God.

00: 11: 43: 09 - 00: 11: 49: 02.
Rev. Hannah.
“God, you told me to do this. The outcome is up to you.”

00: 11: 49: 04 - 00: 11: 49: 21.
Rev. Trudy.
Well.

00: 11: 49: 23 - 00: 11: 51: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
It's not.

00: 11: 51: 10 - 00: 11: 52: 01.
Rev. Trudy.
Go ahead.

00: 11: 52: 02 - 00: 11: 55: 18.
Rev. Hannah.
It's not turning into the way that I expect this to be going.

00: 11: 55: 22 - 00: 12: 23: 11.
Rev. Trudy.
That's true. Because, Jonah, when Jonah gets there. Jonah is the only thing he says, which is very different from most of the other prophets. The only thing he says is, “You're doomed. You're doomed.” Walking across the whole city. “You're doomed. You're doomed. You're doomed.” No, “Well, if you turn back to God…” as all the other prophets did. it was just plain old:

00: 12: 23: 12 - 00: 12: 28: 06.
Rev. Trudy.
“You're doomed”

00: 12: 28: 08 - 00: 13: 04: 16.
Rev. Trudy.
In that situation, where their nation has been conquered by the Assyrians, I'd be walking through the streets saying, “You'll get yours. It's coming.” That strikes at such a deep place so I can understand, Jonah, how ridiculous his actions are. I think part of what makes the story work at that level of being ridiculous.

00: 13: 04: 18 - 00: 13: 35: 01.
Rev. Trudy.
Is because that kind of response is ridiculous. That kind of response to the enemy, to someone who has hurt you so bad, to come out with that same kind of violence and hatred and desire to hurt somebody else, you just get a whole bunch of hurting people. You just get a whole bunch of war. Maybe that's the point of being able to say, “can't you see how ridiculous your actions are, Jonah?”

00: 13: 36: 06 - 00: 13: 44: 21.
Rev. Trudy.
Can't you see that's not going to make, that's going to put you in the belly of a big fish?

00: 13: 44: 23 - 00: 13: 47: 08.
Rev. Trudy
All those choices he makes?

00: 13: 50: 00 - 00: 13: 52: 21.
Rev. Hannah.
Always getting him into trouble.

00: 13: 52: 23 - 00: 13: 59: 03.
Rev. Trudy.
That's for sure. Boy, we can understand it. Given the context.

00: 13: 59: 04 - 00: 14: 06: 18.
Rev. Hannah.
The anger and hatred, we have those people that we never want to extend hear great God's grace to be available.

00: 14: 06: 20 - 00: 14: 11: 12.
Rev. Trudy.
Oh, it's usually because they have hurt us somehow.

00: 14: 11: 13 - 00: 14: 29: 17.
Rev. Hannah.
It's not just Jonah and this unique person. It's human nature. As someone. As a person. We want to be the judge of God's grace. Where it's worthy.

00: 14: 29: 19 - 00: 14: 58: 02.
Rev. Trudy.
I think … I think I see throughout the story just Jonah insisting on his agenda, if you want to call it that. He is not going there. He is not going to give them any grace. He is not going to be happy when they turn and come back to God and repent of their ways. He, it's just not going to be. He's going to he's going to fight for what he wants it to turn out to be in his ways.

00: 14: 58: 03 - 00: 15: 00: 18.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes, he's positioned to be that way.

00: 15: 00: 19 - 00: 15: 18: 07.
Rev. Trudy.
That's right, that's right. You've got to wonder, when you hear a story that is so ridiculous, if you’re then able to say, “oh yeah, maybe my insistence on how things go is also ridiculous.”

00: 15: 18: 09 - 00: 15: 31: 21.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. I hear the question of can we accept God whose mercy, whose grace, reaches people we would rather exclude? In this story?

00: 15: 31: 22 - 00: 15: 35: 22.
Rev. Trudy.
Oh, oh, I see it all the time. I feel it.

00: 15: 36: 03 - 00: 15: 37: 06.
Rev. Hannah.
It's our story.

00: 15: 37: 07 - 00: 16: 02: 17.
Rev. Trudy.
I feel it. For sure. For sure. It's funny because here in Jonah says in chapter four, the second verse: “Oh, I knew you were a gracious God and a merciful God, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and ready to repent from punishing. Oh, I knew that. I knew you'd do this!” Right. “I knew you'd do this.”

00: 16: 02: 17 - 00: 16: 07: 08.
Rev. Trudy.
“God! I didn't want you to do this. I wasn't praying for you to do this.” 

00: 16: 07: 08 - 00: 16: 12: 04.
Rev. Hannah.
That’s ironic to hear that he knew God's graciousness.

00: 16: 12: 08 - 00: 16: 36: 02.
Rev. Trudy.
But isn't that true? Isn't that us? We know God's grace. We have been in a situation, surely, where we have felt the grace of God when all of a sudden you confront the idea that, “Oh, that was me. I did that, oh my gosh.” When you feel that grace come and know that God still loves me.

00: 16: 36: 02 - 00: 16: 38: 05.
Rev. Trudy.
That's okay. We know that.

00: 16: 39: 03 - 00: 16: 40: 17.
Rev. Trudy.
We don't want to give it away, though.

00: 16: 40: 22 - 00: 16: 50: 16.
Rev. Hannah.
It causes us to be angry at the same time causes us to be humble.

00: 16: 50: 18 - 00: 17: 00: 21.
Rev. Hannah.
Another interesting factor you might not be interested in.

00: 17: 00: 23 - 00: 17: 16: 22.
Rev. Hannah.
The entire chapter. Chapter? Entire book of Jonah has reference to God in one way or another, whether that's the Lord or God, Yahweh or the Divine being 39 times.

00: 17: 17: 00 - 00: 17: 18: 22.
Rev. Trudy.
In 4 chapters? That's a lot.

00: 17: 18: 23 - 00: 17: 27: 06.
Rev. Hannah.
That shows me to me that we are not the subject of grace. We are not the only recipient of the grace.


00: 17: 27: 17 - 00: 17: 42: 10.
Rev. Hannah.
God is the subject of grace. God is the one who is Lord of all grace needed in this world. It's a good reminder, right. Hard for me to swallow.

00: 17: 42: 12 - 00: 17: 53: 03.
Rev. Trudy.
It's so funny because we tend to read the story and think it's about Jonah.

00: 17: 54: 01 - 00: 18: 03: 22.
Rev. Trudy.
If God has mentioned so many times, then we got to be paying attention to how God is mentioned and the character of God and what it is that God does for us.

00: 18: 03: 23 - 00: 18: 05: 06.
Rev. Hannah.
What is the main actor.

00: 18: 05: 11 - 00: 18: 07: 01.
Rev. Trudy.
That's right. It is God.

00: 18: 07: 02 - 00: 18: 09: 13.
Rev. Hannah.
Oh, Wow.

00: 18: 09: 14 - 00: 18: 32: 15.
Rev. Trudy.
As you said earlier, all in all of these situations, God is there working, moving and whatever. God is there. God is there. I know some people might have difficulty even just with the concept of grace. Have you found an easy way to think about grace?

00: 18: 32: 17 - 00: 18: 46: 21.
Rev. Trudy.
That's part of why we're doing this series, is to talk about the way in which some of our theological language is just really mysterious by nature.

00: 18: 46: 23 - 00: 18: 55: 12.
Rev. Hannah.
As you know, by now, after working together for 6 or 7 years, I'm the queen of metaphors.

00: 18: 55: 14 - 00: 18: 59: 07.
Rev. Trudy.
Food metaphors, to be sure!

00: 18: 59: 07 - 00: 19: 07: 02.
Rev. Hannah.
A naturalist as well. This time I was thinking … no, all the time, I experience grace.

00: 19: 08: 07 - 00: 19: 15: 18.
Rev. Hannah.
In the in the depth of ocean water, it purifies all the water is that falls into that.

00: 19: 15: 19 - 00: 19: 16: 19.
Rev. Trudy.
Okay.

00: 19: 16: 21 - 00: 19: 35: 20.
Rev. Hannah.
There is no … although we give a names in different continents and oceans. They're all connected. Okay. Or the air we breathe. Although I want to monopolize the air as I breathe it. We're all breathing it. 

00: 19: 35: 21 - 00: 19: 38: 21.
Rev. Trudy.
All five of us are breathing it [in the studio]. Breathing each other’s air. Yes.

00: 19: 38: 22 - 00: 19: 49: 06.
Rev. Hannah.
I see grace is to be that borderless abundance like air.

00: 19: 49: 08 - 00: 20: 11: 13.
Rev. Trudy.
I … that ... You're such a theologian. The Wesleyan one at that. I hear all over that statement the grace, the justifying grace, the sanctifying grace that John Wesley and scholars that study him have named. When you started to say you think of grace being in the depths of the ocean. I'm a scuba diver, I took you literally.

00: 20: 11: 14 - 00: 20: 39: 00.
Rev. Trudy.
Okay. But I think there's something to that as well. When I'm scuba diving, I'm reliant upon so many other things, I'm in this setting where anything can happen. There's such beauty all around them. I'm humbled. Yes. By all of those things. It's so it works at that level too.

00: 20: 39: 02 - 00: 20: 48: 14.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. It shows us the grace is mutually interdependent. That makes our relationship mutually interdependent.

00: 20: 48: 20 - 00: 21: 20: 15.
Rev. Trudy.
I think that's what makes this story of God with Jonah ridiculous. The story that we like to hear, and are part of, is that we don't recognize that interconnectedness. And we do things to hurt it, which ultimately hurt ourselves. Yes.

00: 21: 20: 16 - 00: 21: 21: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes.

00: 21: 21: 12 - 00: 21: 24: 00.
Rev. Trudy.
Yes.
00: 21: 24: 00 - 00: 21: 31: 09.
Rev. Hannah.
One way or another. That's right. Even if it's not visible, it's hurting us too.

00: 21: 31: 11 - 00: 21: 43: 05.
Rev. Trudy.
When you, when you begrudge the people who've done something to you, out of whatever reason. When we carry that. Look at what Jonah carried.

00: 21: 43: 06 - 00: 21: 44: 13.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. Bitterness.

00: 21: 44: 15 - 00: 22: 03: 21.
Rev. Trudy.
Such bitterness and such willingness to avoid going to those people. He was getting seasick on the on the ship. He was all of these things. And willing to die rather than. Yes. Yes.

00: 22: 03: 22 - 00: 22: 07: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
His nature of avoidance.

00: 22: 08: 05 - 00: 22: 12: 04.
Rev. Hannah.
Was also inescapable from God's grace reaching to him.

00: 22: 12: 09 - 00: 22: 13: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
That's right.

00: 22: 13: 12 - 00: 22: 16: 15.
Rev. Hannah.
Or to the people that he wanted to exclude grace from.

00: 22: 16: 16 - 00: 22: 36: 10.
Rev. Trudy.
I think one of the one of my favorite jokes about this, if it is a joke in this story, is God was going to let Jonah just be there, eaten by worm. “If that's what you want. You have free will. You could do that. I'm going to at least make sure that the sun doesn't beat you to death!”

00: 22: 36: 12 - 00: 22: 42: 06.
Rev. Trudy.
“I'm going to create shade for you. Jonah. While you're waiting.” Oh, I love that.

00: 22: 42: 18 - 00: 22: 45: 04.
Rev. Trudy.
Just shading over you.

00: 22: 45: 06 - 00: 22: 46: 13.
Rev. Hannah.
Until you realize.

00: 22: 46: 14 - 00: 23: 09: 09.
Rev. Trudy.
That's right. This is such a great story. I love it. It is a good one for grace. It is such a such a great reminder of the gifts that God gives us, even if we can't quite explain it. We know what gets in the way. Yes. We get in our own selves way more often than not.

00: 23: 09: 12 - 00: 23: 41: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
Yes. Also, this is a short book, four chapters. For those of you who may not be reading the entire book, the Bible, I invite you to read the four chapters so that you can hear more from us or from her preaching on Sunday. Yeah. With that in mind, with that invitation out there, I would to pose a few questions for you to consider:

00: 23: 41: 10 - 00: 24: 18: 10.
Rev. Hannah.
How have you experienced God's persistent grace? Who do you have a difficult time offering grace to? How have you seen God offer grace to someone you couldn't? These may be a good question. A good series of questions that you can have a good, meaningful, graceful conversations around you. Hope you enjoyed this podcast and enjoy the conversation and enjoy living with grace moving forward.

00: 24: 18: 16 - 00: 24: 22: 08.
Rev. Hannah.
Thanks for listening and see you next time.

00: 24: 22: 10 - 00: 24: 40: 12.
Rev. Trudy.
Good to talk with you again. Likewise. Thanks. Bye, everyone. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org