00:00:00:10 - 00:00:11:18 Rev. Hannah What does holiness look like in daily life? Today we explore how faith leads us to welcome migrants with justice, dignity and love. 00:00:11:20 - 00:00:25:08 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:25:10 - 00:01:10:12 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. Today we continue our conversation on Imago Dei 2.0, exploring what it means not only to affirm that every person bears the image of God, but also to live as though we truly believe it. Our focus today is migrants: their dignity, courage, gifts, and contributions to our communities. I'm Reverend Hannah. Today I'm joined by Nyla Marson, one of our Patreons, who has been showing up at the courthouse every week to stand alongside migrants and others affected by our immigration system. 00:01:10:14 - 00:01:13:13 Rev. Hannah Nyla, thanks for joining us today. 00:01:13:14 - 00:01:14:09 Nyla It's good to be here. 00:01:14:10 - 00:01:43:16 Rev. Hannah Thank you. Before we talk about your experiences, I would like to begin with these words from Leviticus chapter 19, verses 33 and 34: “When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you. You shall love the alien as yourself. 00:01:43:18 - 00:02:19:02 Rev. Hannah For you were aliens in the land of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.” Some translations use the word alien, and I can't even pronounce it with my ESL tongue. Today we're more likely to say immigrants, migrants, foreigners, international people, ethnic people, or whatever. But the command is unmistakable: do not oppress them. Treat them like citizens among you. 00:02:19:04 - 00:02:43:22 Rev. Hannah Love them as yourself. So, let's begin with your story, Nyla. What first moved you to join these courthouse protests? And what happens when you gather there? And what do you hope your presence communicates to migrants and their families? I want to hear your story and your experience. 00:02:44:00 - 00:03:14:16 Nyla You know, it's funny. I started doing that because it just seemed like the right thing to do. There was a woman in United Women in Faith at the Encinitas church, and she said, you know, what's going on with immigrants in the community is not right. She started a group going down there. 00:03:14:18 - 00:03:37:00 Nyla Initially it was Tuesday and Thursday, and then we're all there Thursday, and Tuesday kind of faded off. Initially, I was there with one or two other people on occasion. Then it's been kind of fun because it started to grow. I've been able to meet people from the other Methodist churches in the area. 00:03:37:00 - 00:03:43:00 Nyla We have a whole pink shirt lady crew that get down there and wear our— 00:03:43:00 - 00:03:44:18 Rev. Hannah standing up for justice. 00:03:44:19 - 00:03:53:07 Nyla Standing up for justice. We've actually become known; people look for us. They're like, “oh, there's the ladies in the pink shirts.” 00:03:53:11 - 00:03:55:01 Rev. Hannah Okay, good. 00:03:55:03 - 00:04:18:15 Nyla Which has been—I'm going to get ahead of myself—but toward the end of your question, you said the impact that it makes. I think having us as a group—the biggest group we've had is probably about eight to ten people, all in our pink shirts— 00:04:18:16 - 00:04:19:21 Rev. Hannah Yes. Noticeable. 00:04:19:22 - 00:04:29:02 Nyla And so, it is known as well, and it does have an impact. But initially, I was— 00:04:29:04 - 00:04:53:03 Nyla I was having difficulty dealing with what was happening and the vilification of immigrants in the country and the current administration's change in some of the policies. It felt like being able to do something was what we were called to do. 00:04:53:06 - 00:04:53:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:04:53:19 - 00:05:13:18 Nyla And so, through the United Women in Faith group that was there, it made it an easy thing to step into. Initially, some people were going actually to the courts because we're right in front of the courthouse and we were on the street, and I actually never went up there. I was going to at one point. 00:05:13:18 - 00:05:38:18 Nyla They do special training sometimes for people, but I talked to several others who had been, and they said they actually felt like we make more of an impact being on the street and creating some visibility. So, we've been doing that for over a year now. Initially it was really just us. Sometimes there'd be a few other people after the Rene Good and Alex Pretty killings. 00:05:38:20 - 00:06:10:08 Nyla There's an Indivisible group that has hosted different people who show up. They show up a couple hours before we do. So, I feel like, you know, now we have an opening act, and then we will join them partly whenever we get there, and then we stay a little bit later. So, it's been interesting also to see the change in the energy level and what other people are doing and saying. There's a little stage out there. 00:06:10:08 - 00:06:40:15 Nyla And so, it's been interesting to see the evolution of even our protest out there. The other part where we see an evolution is that we get a lot more positive honks and waves and thumbs up. We still get a few of these and some other finger messages. But for the most part, it's a lot more positive, where I think it used to be kind of a blend. 00:06:40:15 - 00:07:00:07 Nyla And now we really feel like there's more positive. I feel like that's an impact we're making: we're standing up for something, and people will come by on the street and talk to us. It's very interesting to hear, and it's our opportunity to explain why we're there and what we're doing. 00:07:00:08 - 00:07:20:20 Nyla We do say we are people of faith, and we do this because we believe it's the right thing to do for our faith. Some of our signs have Bible verses. Matthew tells us to love your neighbor, and Leviticus, of course, commands it, right? 00:07:20:22 - 00:07:24:17 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that's the origin of Matthew version. Yeah. 00:07:24:18 - 00:07:25:01 Nyla Okay. 00:07:25:01 - 00:07:57:11 Rev. Hannah That makes sense. Yes. So, Matthew, speaking to a Jewish audience, wanted to borrow from the Hebrew Bible to make sure that the author of Matthew speaks to the same audience. So, you're not off. It sounds like it started by the initiative of one person and joining some people of faith together, and also collaborating with people out there standing up for those migrants at the courthouse. 00:07:57:11 - 00:08:08:03 Rev. Hannah And I just cannot imagine the impact that your presence makes to the comfort of those migrants walking into the courthouse. 00:08:08:09 - 00:08:17:22 Nyla We frequently do get people who come by, who are going into the courthouse, and they'll say, you know, thank you for being here. Thank you for making a difference. 00:08:18:00 - 00:08:48:07 Rev. Hannah And those of us who are not at the courthouse every week may encounter immigration mainly through news reports and statistics and political arguments. And you have been close enough to encounter the actual people who come, say hello and thank you, and their families. So, I was wondering, would you share something you have witnessed that has stayed with you after you left the courthouse? 00:08:48:08 - 00:08:56:13 Rev. Hannah What have migrants and their families taught you by watching them? 00:08:56:15 - 00:09:26:14 Nyla Well, I mean, there are a couple of ways of answering that question. Because we're down there on a weekly basis, we do see people going in. We do hear some of the stories, even though a lot of times we're not directly communicating with the immigrants. One of the things that to me kind of is—I'm not saying that well … 00:09:30:20 - 00:10:03:00 Nyla Part of one of the stories, I think, shows an example of the way the current administration is looking at immigrants. At one point there was a young woman, 19, who had been picked up the night before from down in South San Diego. 00:10:03:01 - 00:10:26:00 Nyla And so, her car was impounded, and they basically took everything she had on her and put her in detention, because underneath the courthouse they actually have a temporary detention area. They put her down there, and she spent the night in detention. The next day she said, “well, can I get out?” And they said, “no, not until we charge you.” 00:10:26:00 - 00:10:33:19 Nyla And she says, “but you're not going to charge me with anything.” Well, the reason they weren't going to charge her is because she's a U.S. citizen. She was born in Puerto 00:10:33:19 - 00:10:37:06 Nyla Rico, which is the U.S. Yeah. 00:10:37:12 - 00:10:46:20 Nyla And there was nothing that she had. I mean, she wasn't doing anything for them to pick her up other than driving while brown. 00:10:46:22 - 00:10:48:20 Rev. Hannah And wearing skin color. 00:10:48:21 - 00:10:49:21 Nyla Exactly. 00:10:49:22 - 00:11:09:01 Nyla And so, when they let her out. They let her out without anything. She had no car. She had no phone. She had no wallet. No money. So, she was standing there starting to cry. And somebody said, “you know, you should go talk to those ladies with the pink shirts.” 00:11:09:03 - 00:11:10:09 Nyla Oh my God. 00:11:10:11 - 00:11:32:07 Nyla And one of our group—not me so much, but one of our group—a couple of them took her home to their home, cleaned her up, gave her something to eat, and was able to get her phone, and charge it so she could call her father. He was able to come and get her and at least take her home. 00:11:32:07 - 00:11:59:03 Nyla And they did have to pay for her car to come out of impound, even though she had done nothing and she was not an immigrant at all. She was a U.S.-born citizen. So, I think that's not an unusual story. I mean, there are instances of that that we've seen. The other thing that I think— 00:11:59:05 - 00:12:02:04 Nyla A lot of people say, “well, people shouldn't enter this country illegally.” 00:12:03:06 - 00:12:25:17 Nyla And there are people who come in undocumented, and a lot of the people who are being picked up or detained are not necessarily coming in illegally. They've been allowed to come in under asylum status or under some other status. One that we saw was a sheriff. 00:12:25:19 - 00:12:45:09 Nyla So, he's a sheriff in San Diego County, and his wife was in the process of getting her green card. She was showing up to court because she thought she was in the last stage of being able to get her green card. And they said, “no, we're going to change your status, and you need to leave. 00:12:45:10 - 00:13:16:04 Nyla You need to leave the country.” And they were holding her. I don't know the end of the story, but there was some question about whether they were going to actually deport her or whether they were going to give her an ankle bracelet, which is basically house arrest. And so, the husband was outside with a stroller because they had a newborn baby. 00:13:16:06 - 00:13:33:00 Nyla And so, you know, here's this husband who is a U.S. citizen, clearly, and his wife was legally going through the process. He now has a new baby, and he might have his wife deported. 00:13:33:01 - 00:14:16:07 Rev. Hannah And that's a perfect story about this woman who just gave birth, and this sheriff, her husband, and this newborn baby, innocent. And when they are treated as case numbers or statistics, or like problems to solve or figure out, we downplay the image of God embedded in her. And the image of God cannot be reduced to an immigration status or political category, or tied to a place of birth when her kid was born here. 00:14:16:07 - 00:15:02:06 Rev. Hannah So, your story reminded me that each person, every person, carries a story: relationships, labor, wisdom, fear sometimes, humor, and hope. And Imago Dei means that we do not merely feel sorry for migrants. We recognize them as neighbors, teachers, community builders, chiefs, sheriffs' wives, and also bearers of God's presence. Today's text begins with—well, Leviticus chapter 19 begins with God saying, “you shall be holy, for I, the Lord your God, am holy.” 00:15:02:09 - 00:15:45:07 Rev. Hannah And we sometimes separate holiness in Sunday worship and secularness out in the world, and holiness as personal purity or separation from the world. But this book places worship and ethics side by side. And if you read the entire chapter 19, it speaks about worship. It speaks about leaving food for people who have trouble finding food, paying workers fairly, protecting vulnerable people, rejecting hatred, respecting elders, and loving aliens—immigrants—as ourselves. 00:15:45:07 - 00:16:34:04 Rev. Hannah The Matthew chapter, “love your neighbor as yourself,” comes from loving your aliens as yourself. Yeah, “neighbors” is softened, but the original text is aliens, immigrants. So, this is not a side note in Scripture. It's a central theme, and the center in which God's holiness is revealed is not limited to a church building. The entire chapter talks about how it extends to where you encounter those people out in the field, leaving some food out in the field for others to glean, and into your workplaces, neighborhoods, public institutions, and, in your case, the courthouse. 00:16:34:06 - 00:16:52:15 Rev. Hannah So, do you experience your presence at the courthouse as an expression of your faith? Do you think of it as an expression of your faith? Has it changed the way you understand worship and where you encounter God? 00:16:52:17 - 00:17:14:18 Nyla I mean, I do definitely see it as an expression of my faith. That's part of the intention of being there. We show up very intentionally as Women In Faith, and we relate to other people that way. Sometimes the language gets a little salty with some of the other organizations that are there. 00:17:14:20 - 00:17:17:07 Nyla And that's where we're like— 00:17:18:00 - 00:17:38:09 Nyla Well, you have to think there are certain things that we don't put on our signs that other people do. But I think all of it is bringing that, that we see it as a charge from God. Yes. That this is what's expected of us, and that we can make a difference. 00:17:38:15 - 00:17:48:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. And broadening our scope to see the divine in every person, including immigrants and your fellow protesters. 00:17:48:06 - 00:18:10:00 Nyla Well, and I'll share with you. I grew up in a very culturally diverse area in Oxnard, Ventura area. There's a lot of Japanese in this area who had settled there after World War II. It’s an agricultural area. And there's a lot of Hispanic, and the church I grew up in— 00:18:10:01 - 00:18:34:16 Nyla I mean, we had a Japanese Nisei fellowship, and we had Hispanics and African Americans and European Americans. When we had a potluck at church, it was a multicultural dining experience. And it wasn't just the food. I was in the youth choir, and we were a touring youth choir, and we were called the Many Shades of Joy. 00:18:34:17 - 00:19:01:19 Nyla Yes, because when we were up there, we were very much many shades. And I realized, in thinking about what we were going to talk about today, how blessed I am to have really had that very diverse environment. I mean, I grew up in a house where we had a Japanese American family on one side and a Mexican American family on the other side, and we got tamales at Christmas and strawberries in the spring. 00:19:01:23 - 00:19:38:01 Nyla Yes, and I realized I feel like my experience growing up has been very rich because of all of the diversity. And then in my career in San Diego, I've also had, particularly working in manufacturing, a lot of diversity in the workforce. I think having grown up that way, it was maybe easier for me in some ways to be able to relate to people who are very different. 00:19:38:02 - 00:20:00:09 Nyla Yes, at one workforce, we had a lot of Buddhists. So, I remember actually studying, like, what exactly is Buddhism? Because I wanted to understand where their value system comes from. And I think that has helped me be able to understand my own faith differently. Yes. Or better, maybe. 00:20:00:10 - 00:20:02:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. There are different lenses. Yeah. 00:20:02:12 - 00:20:42:14 Nyla And so, I was thinking about Reverend Brittany's sermon a couple of weeks ago, where she was talking about leaving as an opportunity to get new perspectives, to sometimes be uncomfortable, and learning to be comfortable being uncomfortable. And I feel like immigration, loving your immigrant neighbors, is sort of the flip side of that. Yes, it's seeing things through a different perspective of somebody who has themselves left home and come here and is probably uncomfortable and learning to be comfortable with that. 00:20:42:14 - 00:21:14:12 Nyla And sometimes that's challenging for us, whose home and community they're coming into. Yes. And I think that's part of what we're seeing right now. But God also says in Leviticus, you were immigrants in Egypt. Yes. We are all immigrants. Yes. I mean, in this country, if you go back far enough, even the people we call Native Americans actually came from somewhere else, according to most historians. 00:21:14:12 - 00:21:27:00 Nyla Right. And so, at some point, you know, we are all immigrants. If we didn't come here from another country, our ancestors did. 00:21:27:01 - 00:21:41:02 Rev. Hannah Yeah. I was intrigued by your sharing of your family of origin. As you talk about immigrants that you run into, would you like to tell us a little bit about that? 00:21:41:03 - 00:21:47:19 Nyla Well, I think what I said to you was, on my father's side, I'm actually second generation. 00:21:47:21 - 00:21:50:07 Rev. Hannah You don't even go far, right? 00:21:50:08 - 00:22:10:00 Nyla I mean, you know, because we kind of think as white people in this country, you know, we think that this is our nation, and it's like, well, on one side of my family, generations of farm folk in Indiana, but on my other side, my grandfather was an alien, right? He came from Britain. 00:22:10:01 - 00:22:11:01 Rev. Hannah Wow. 00:22:11:03 - 00:22:22:18 Nyla And married my grandmother in the 1920s. Okay. And she always was very careful to say that he was a citizen when he married her. 00:22:22:20 - 00:22:25:11 Rev. Hannah So, there's something going on there, right? 00:22:25:12 - 00:22:51:11 Nyla And so, it was somehow important to her that she didn't marry— But the funny thing is, we actually found his naturalization certificate after they had all passed, and we're not so sure that he was a citizen. I don't know if he misled her or if she was just misleading other people. But yeah. 00:22:51:14 - 00:23:25:19 Rev. Hannah There was some tendency, something about our human nature, that we do not want to share the whole truth. But if you go back to your history, just two generations, there's some hidden truth about that too. Yeah. So, it's interesting to see how you connected God saying, remember you were aliens in the land of Egypt, and remembered those treatments of others, and that's the basis of your care for others. 00:23:25:19 - 00:24:02:15 Rev. Hannah And you remembered your grandfather coming from another country, and grandma trying to hide that fact about the immigration history, and how remembering actually helps us align our faith and our practice. When we opened up our church, a lot of migrants came in, and I was nervous about getting our volunteers ready to serve them. And I realized, these are the people who do not want simply to be served. 00:24:02:17 - 00:24:26:20 Rev. Hannah These are the people who wanted to contribute to the operation of the shelter. So, after a week, I became hands-off. The migrants were running the shelter: they were cleaning the restroom that they used, and they were organizing the clothes that were donated. They wanted to become part of the community and leaders of the community. 00:24:26:20 - 00:25:02:21 Rev. Hannah And I remember later making labels—nametags—transportation, registration, food—so that everyone among the shelter people could be in charge of their own little community. And also, as I was hearing about your upbringing and the neighborhood where you were growing up, I remembered that out of my six years of ministry in this church, maybe those two months were the longest working-hour days. 00:25:02:23 - 00:25:31:14 Rev. Hannah However, I remember sitting down after 10 PM, listening to these new migrants' stories and how they came, listening to two women in love, how they fled their home to find a home that welcomes two women in love. We ended up marrying them in this church, and these migrants threw a party and brought cake, and they were dancing. 00:25:31:14 - 00:25:38:11 Rev. Hannah And I forgot that I learned to do salsa dancing. 00:25:38:15 - 00:26:11:11 Rev. Hannah Out of all these two years, they are the ones who brought out joy from me. So, we weren't just the givers. We weren't in the upper hand offering help. We were receiving lots of love and curiosity and storytelling and new relationships and all of that, and how fun that is. So actually, they brought the divine image of God from me, and it was revealing relationship for both parties. 00:26:11:13 - 00:26:40:00 Nyla So, and I love what you said about how they didn't come basically with their hands out. And I think this is how a lot of people relate to immigrants, because this is what they're told. People who immigrate here, and who immigrate anywhere really, want to be a contribution, and they want to be part of the community, and they want to be able to make a difference and build a life for themselves. 00:26:40:00 - 00:26:41:04 Nyla But they want. 00:26:41:05 - 00:26:44:07 Rev. Hannah They want to make the community to be safe. 00:26:44:07 - 00:27:02:00 Nyla Exactly, exactly. And I think that's a little bit different lens to look through when we think of who our immigrants are in our community than what kind of is showing up right now. So yeah. 00:27:02:01 - 00:27:39:10 Rev. Hannah And immigration is often presented as a choice between compassion and safety, security, and welcoming people, and respecting law. But Scripture asks us to begin somewhere more fundamental: Who is this Nyla Morrison in front of me? Who is this migrant before us? Before someone is described as documented or undocumented, citizen or non-citizen, newcomer or stranger, that person is a beloved child of God. 00:27:39:10 - 00:28:14:19 Rev. Hannah And that's the lesson we are taking away from these children. Affirming the image of God does not answer every political question, but it should determine how we speak to them, how we listen to them, and what forms of treatment we are willing to accept. No political disagreement gives us permission to dehumanize another person. So this book, Leviticus, does not simply tell us to have kind feelings toward immigrants. 00:28:14:21 - 00:28:41:23 Rev. Hannah It says, go. Action. Do not oppress them. Treat them like citizens among you. Love them as yourself. And that became the core of Jesus' teaching as well. So biblical love is more than an emotion. It takes practical and public form. 00:28:42:00 - 00:29:01:23 Rev. Hannah So, as we think about migrants, I would like to ask: what are some practical ways people can stand with migrant neighbors, even if they cannot join you in a protest? What could be good ways? 00:29:02:00 - 00:29:05:06 Nyla We would love to have other people join us. 00:29:05:08 - 00:29:07:05 Rev. Hannah Yes, but other ways can. 00:29:07:06 - 00:29:39:07 Nyla Then there are other ways. I mean, I think part of it is increasing your own awareness, like, understand what is going on. And part of that is looking at the news, reading things. There are a lot of stories out there, and so you don't have to go out and protest to hear some of those stories, but you do have to make an intention to maybe listen, or listen for what's going on in the world around us. 00:29:39:07 - 00:30:01:06 Nyla And maybe, I think, listen with God in your heart, because people will say, well, you know, I never know. I don't know what's true or what's not true. And that is something to discern. I think, for me, I kind of look at, well, what do I think God's telling me in this story? 00:30:01:07 - 00:30:20:04 Nyla What is there for me to learn or to take away that will help me understand how to better communicate with immigrants or with other people about what's happening with immigrants? And so, I think that's a big thing, to just realize. 00:30:20:06 - 00:30:38:16 Nyla You know, don't look away. Right. Sometimes it's being uncomfortable about what's going on. I think the other thing is, kind of what you were saying, to look at— 00:30:38:18 - 00:31:14:10 Nyla You know, to look at other people as a child of God. And even when you don't agree with them, or you think you have biases about them, maybe also look and say, well, what's there that I can connect with? Because I think it's making that connection. Sometimes just sitting on the bus and saying hi to somebody—sometimes people will respond back, and you think, you know, you're in a conversation and you've learned something new about this person. Maybe they go on and you never see them again, but you've learned something new that you can take to your next interaction also. 00:31:14:13 - 00:31:47:13 Rev. Hannah So, it sounds like you're suggesting to our listeners and myself to see the other person as a bearer of the image of God, and to start conversing with them and engaging with them and listening to their stories instead of looking away. So, these are good takeaways. Thanks for joining me today, Nyla. Your faithful witness out at the courthouse and your sharing your stories 00:31:47:13 - 00:32:20:20 Rev. Hannah help us be better people and find the divine image in every person we run into. So, as we continue to reflect on these stories and this chapter, we invite you to consider these questions: Where do you recognize the image of God in your everyday life? How might your spiritual practices lead you toward greater love and justice, like she does? 00:32:20:22 - 00:32:50:11 Rev. Hannah What have you come to understand differently about migrants among us? As we always do, I hope you continue this conversation with your friends and whoever is around, even with your migrant friend that you run into in a grocery store or restaurant. So, I hope you find the divine image in every person you run into each day, and find abundant love in your conversation. 00:32:50:12 - 00:32:54:16 Rev. Hannah So, thanks for listening and see you next time! 00:32:54:18 - 00:33:08:15 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.