00:00:00:19 - 00:00:23:14 Rev. Hannah Life is really simple. We often want life and people to fit into neat categories. But Ecclesiastes invites us into something different. It reminds us that life is richer, more beautiful, and more mysterious than our categories can contain. 00:00:23:16 - 00:00:37:04 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:37:06 - 00:00:44:01 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah. I'm here with Benicio Casillas. Welcome, Benicio. 00:00:44:02 - 00:00:45:07 Benicio Thank you for having me. 00:00:45:08 - 00:01:28:10 Rev. Hannah Thanks for coming. Today we're beginning a new series called Imago Dei 2.0. This is the second iteration of the Image of God sermon series we had last year, where we will celebrate the image of God reflected in many lives of people. And as we prepare to celebrate Pride, this will be released the day after the Pride Parade. I'm delighted to have you here with us to hear about your life experiences, and you're part of our beloved River community, our LGBTQ+ ministry in this church. 00:01:28:12 - 00:01:58:10 Rev. Hannah Together, we'll hear his story and explore how Scripture invites us to recognize the divine image in every person. So, when people think of Ecclesiastes, they usually think of the words, “for everything there is a season.” It's one of the Bible's most quoted lines. And here is the irony: those beautiful verses often end up on greeting cards and coffee mugs. 00:01:58:14 - 00:02:34:09 Rev. Hannah “There is a season.” Well, the book itself is anything but simple. So, this book questions easy answers. It pushes against certainty, refuses simplistic theology, and it's one of the Bible's most unconventional books because it resists being neatly put into categories. So perhaps that's exactly why it has something to teach us today. And let's hear these familiar words with fresh ears. 00:02:34:11 - 00:03:09:03 Rev. Hannah So, I'll be reading Ecclesiastes chapter 3, verses 1-8: “For everything there is a season, a time for every matter under heaven; a time to be born and a time to die; a time to plant and a time to pluck up what's planted; a time to kill and a time to heal; a time to break down and a time to build up.” 00:03:09:05 - 00:03:39:04 Rev. Hannah “A time to weep and a time to laugh; a time to mourn and a time to dance; a time to throw away stones and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; a time to seek and a time to lose; a time to keep and a time to throw away.” 00:03:39:06 - 00:03:59:08 Rev. Hannah “A time to tear and a time to sew; a time to keep silence and a time to speak; a time to love and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.” 00:03:59:10 - 00:04:00:11 Benicio Beautiful. 00:04:00:13 - 00:04:35:04 Rev. Hannah Beautiful, beautiful. This book—I love Ecclesiastes. This is one of my favorite books in the Bible. And it gives room for mystery, gives room for doubts and questions and everything in between. And it doesn't sound like Proverbs, where Proverbs often gives answers to people. It often says, “if you live wisely, life will generally work.” Yeah, but this book says sometimes it doesn't. 00:04:35:10 - 00:04:56:16 Rev. Hannah It doesn't go the way you always expect, and it doesn't work as a reward system. It doesn't erase contradictions. It sits with those contradictions. And this book asks us to trust God even when life refuses to fit into our categories. 00:04:56:18 - 00:04:57:14 Benicio Absolutely. 00:04:57:15 - 00:05:31:17 Rev. Hannah And many queer theologians have found resonance in Ecclesiastes. I don't know if you were aware of that, not because it explicitly talks about LGBTQ people, but because it challenges rigid assumptions and makes room for complexity. And maybe that's faithful theology: not having every answer to our questions, but trusting God within the mystery and within those two polar extremes. 00:05:31:18 - 00:05:49:07 Rev. Hannah Yeah. So, I wanted to ask you a little bit about yourself. Has there been a time when you felt like you left the categories that other people expected? 00:05:49:13 - 00:06:18:10 Benicio Yeah, absolutely. And hearing the story, it's my first time in some way. And I think that's the beauty about it. It's like the growth, right? It's not linear, which goes into my life definitely, as I'm a trans man. So, for the first 27 years of my life, I was either presented as a woman or believed I was a woman, right? 00:06:18:12 - 00:06:59:15 Benicio Growing up, there was always a seed that something was different. But I continued to live as a girl, being my mother's one and only child and being her one and only daughter, my first grandchild of the immediate family. So, my grandmother was very happy. Being able to explore that wasn't really an option because I grew up in a Catholic household and eventually was going to church in a more conservative church. 00:06:59:17 - 00:07:03:16 Benicio You had to follow this role. 00:07:03:19 - 00:07:07:01 Rev. Hannah The proverb. Yeah. Like that one model. 00:07:07:04 - 00:07:48:21 Benicio Yeah. You have to follow it. You cannot question it. You cannot question God. And that was something that I was very upset about because we're created in God's image, and God got it wrong. However, I'm not supposed to question God. So, I buried it a lot and didn't have the courage until later on in my adult life, when I took a leap of faith and moved to a different city without knowing anybody, without family or friends, to reinvent myself. 00:07:49:02 - 00:07:54:16 Benicio And so, yeah, I have some experience with that for sure. 00:07:54:21 - 00:07:58:04 Rev. Hannah Wow. 00:07:58:06 - 00:08:06:02 Rev. Hannah And you talked about living as a girl. How were the first 27 years of your life? How did you feel? 00:08:06:02 - 00:08:29:09 Benicio Well, that's the funny thing about this journey, because it's not linear. And so, there were times where I did believe that's where I was supposed to go, where I'm supposed to grow up. And I am Mexican, so you're supposed to get married, have children, everything that's one after the other. 00:08:29:11 - 00:08:53:00 Benicio I did have boyfriends growing up, and I very much did like them, right? But there was always something in the back of my mind and in my heart where something wasn't fitting; it was not aligning. And so, as that voice started getting louder and louder, because it was nearing to come out, it's like, imagine if you saw yourself. 00:08:53:04 - 00:09:10:03 Benicio And this is how I saw myself, buried under ice and just crying out to be free. And that was the voice of me like, you're actually a man. Like, you know it, but I hadn't accepted it. 00:09:10:04 - 00:09:42:08 Rev. Hannah Yeah. I just cannot imagine the weight of the ice, the coldness and your inability to move around and live under that ice. And I'm glad that you're here. Thank you. Some years later. So, you mentioned that your life in your 27 years wasn't linear. And that's what I believe this book is about. It's not linear. And there is a time for everything. 00:09:42:10 - 00:10:14:01 Rev. Hannah And this is not telling us that life is divided into neat opposites. It describes the fullness of being human between birth and death, between weeping and laughing, between silence and speaking, and between mourning and dancing. And these are poetic pairs, a way of saying human life contains the whole range of experiences. Notice what the author never says. 00:10:14:01 - 00:10:56:00 Rev. Hannah He never says, or she never says, or they never say, “one season is holier than any other season.” Instead, wisdom is learning what this season requires: sometimes healing, sometimes grieving, sometimes speaking, and sometimes listening. Faith isn't escaping life's trouble. You have to sit with it. Yeah, right. And it's learning how to live faithfully within those situations. So, I have another question for you, if you are ready. 00:10:56:01 - 00:10:57:08 Benicio Absolutely. 00:10:57:10 - 00:11:06:01 Rev. Hannah So, what has the complexity of your life and the seasons of your life taught you about faith? 00:11:06:03 - 00:11:08:16 Benicio Well. 00:11:08:18 - 00:11:13:02 Benicio For me, I. 00:11:13:04 - 00:11:38:00 Benicio At the forefront, faith wasn't there because, like I mentioned before, okay, I was created in the image of God, but yet God got this wrong. So why am I supposed to believe this? Right? And to talk about the different seasons of my life: like I mentioned, I had boyfriends and then I came out as a lesbian, so I started dating girls. 00:11:38:00 - 00:12:04:06 Benicio Yeah. So, I started dating girls to really have that experience of coming out and essentially the death of that thought of being married, having kids with the, with the assessment. Right. But then also now coming out as trans. 00:12:04:08 - 00:12:30:06 Benicio That was another death, another season that died, because I'm not a lesbian, I'm a trans man, and I'm dating a cis woman. And there's a complexity there, too, because people automatically assume that my partner and I are a heteronormative straight couple, which in fact is more complex than that. It's more layers than that. 00:12:30:08 - 00:13:14:21 Benicio And so really, it was never linear, but I needed that leap of faith to get out of the box I was in that I was outgrowing and move into a new state. I moved to Portland, Oregon, and became myself. And I think about this because looking back on it, I thank God that it was God's plan for me to be there, because the first night that I came out as trans, I met my fiancée, Shaila. 00:13:14:22 - 00:13:17:20 Rev. Hannah Oh. 00:13:17:22 - 00:13:37:14 Benicio So, I met her the same day I came out as trans. And if that wasn't God's plan, I don't know what it was. But there was hope, there was a hope there with a friend of mine who gave me hope that it's okay to be yourself as well. 00:13:37:16 - 00:13:41:12 Rev. Hannah And you found those beautiful moments with people. 00:13:41:13 - 00:13:43:15 Benicio Yeah, absolutely. 00:13:43:17 - 00:14:06:22 Rev. Hannah As you do not fit into either extreme, but somewhere in between. Yeah, right. Well, many LGBTQ+ Christians know what it's like to move through many different seasons. And there may have been seasons of hiding, of questioning, of grief. 00:14:07:01 - 00:14:07:20 Benicio Absolutely. 00:14:07:21 - 00:14:37:07 Rev. Hannah And of fear. Yeah. And perhaps a season of finding words for who you truly are. And Ecclesiastes reminds us there is a time to keep silence and a time to speak. Silence can sometimes protect you, protect us. But there also comes a holy moment when telling the truth about yourself becomes an act of faith as well. 00:14:37:12 - 00:14:57:12 Rev. Hannah So not because identity is easy, but because God's love calls us to be who we are in God's own image. So, my question for you now is: what gave you the courage to live more authentically? 00:14:57:12 - 00:15:28:15 Benicio Yeah, I want to give credit. It was my fiancée, Shaila, and a friend of mine in high school who was presented as male, right. They were female at birth, but they were part of the group who knew they were a man all along, right? And so, seeing them living their true self, even though I was still not accepting who I was, I was hiding who I was. 00:15:28:17 - 00:15:48:21 Benicio Gave me that hope that I can get to that point, right? And in some way, if you really think about it, that has to be God working in that, right? Because there's God in everybody we meet and we attract those people who either we are or who we want to be. 00:15:49:00 - 00:16:22:08 Benicio And so maybe I wasn't quite listening to that or seeing God there, but that has to be something. It took a while for me to get there, but it was something. Same thing with me and my fiancée: having that safe person to accept me and all of me, even really before I could accept myself. And that's the thing: I had to be quiet because of fear of losing my family. I’m a Mexican. 00:16:22:08 - 00:17:12:02 Benicio And it's not an appeal see, in families. It's not accepted to be gay or lesbian or be trans. So, there is that safety piece. There is the alienation by your own maternal or your closest family. And for me to come really fully into who I am, I finally felt safe to do so. And I thank God that I did have the faith to go somewhere out of that box because, essentially, if I were to come back into where I grew up in that fear, I'd just be going back into the closet, because I would be hiding who I am. 00:17:12:04 - 00:17:36:05 Benicio And I want to say that just because you can't fully be yourself yet because of the safety part—because I see that, I understand that, especially in the world we're living in today—your safety is priority. But that doesn't mean that God loves you any less. 00:17:36:07 - 00:17:38:08 Benicio You know, God still loves you. Yes. 00:17:38:12 - 00:18:07:16 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you just nailed it. You're talking ahead of me. One of the dangers in the religious world is believing that God only loves one version of us, that one expected box. Yeah, but Scripture tells another story. Every human being bears God's image: you, me, everyone else. And throughout our lives, we continue discovering what that means. 00:18:07:18 - 00:18:47:06 Rev. Hannah And the image of God is always unfolding in us. So, the image of God is not something we earn, and it's not something we lose either. It's not limited by race, gender, age, ability, or any other human categories. The image of God is a divine gift for each one of us. And each of us reflects that image differently, and together we reveal more of God than any one of us can ever do. 00:18:47:07 - 00:18:59:02 Rev. Hannah And so, I have the last set of questions here. What does being made in the image of God mean to you today? 00:18:59:04 - 00:19:05:07 Benicio Well, yeah. Today. 00:19:05:09 - 00:19:23:03 Benicio It's really to accept all of you, even the part of you that still is in hiding. Because that's still you. And I want to say: 00:19:23:05 - 00:19:41:05 Benicio Made in the image of God has a different meaning to me now than before, because it took a while to get there. The journey wasn't linear. It was scary at times, for sure. The thought of losing family. 00:19:41:07 - 00:20:17:20 Benicio The thought of losing everything that I knew. But now it's like, even if that were to go away, I still have my faith. And I still know that I was not created in a mistake. I was created. I was a loving image of God in the form of Benicio. And so, meeting others who also are getting away from putting themselves in a box. 00:20:17:21 - 00:20:42:16 Benicio I love meeting you, too, love seeing God in you. And that's the thing about Pride: not only being proud of yourself, but with others. And we take a look at our generations before. I have two gay uncles, and it was just—I don't have a memory of them coming out, but it was just accepted. 00:20:42:18 - 00:21:09:21 Benicio And it kind of felt like a “don't ask, don't tell” in the family. But there was a seed starting to be planted, right? We know they're gay. And then I came out; it was handled a little differently. And of course, the consequence of that was, my grandmother was very opposed to it, but that starts to open the door. 00:21:09:22 - 00:21:24:12 Benicio Right. And I have, you know, lesbian cousin and a trans woman cousin like it just, you know, it starts to like, have a ripple effect. And so, you know, I love seeing that. I love seeing God in them, too. 00:21:24:14 - 00:22:01:12 Rev. Hannah Yes. It wasn't just one way or the other. It wasn't cisgender woman or cisgender man. There are a variety of people reflecting the image of God. And I'm glad that you found God's presence and God's image in your own fabulous self after all those years. Yeah, and this is a good season to celebrate the diversity of the divine image in everyone, especially in this Pride month, and a season to confess where we've confused conformity with holiness. 00:22:01:14 - 00:22:31:01 Rev. Hannah A season to remember that God's image has always been far more expansive than our categories, right? Yeah. And because every authentic life reveals something unique about the Creator God. Every story, every journey, and every part of your seasons and every person in your family and friends. So maybe we continue to expand the image of God. 00:22:31:03 - 00:23:05:00 Benicio Yeah, absolutely. Because if we have the rhetoric of, “you are not God's image,” people don't realize the effect of that, especially in the community, where we're battling mental illness and substance abuse. Right. Because they feel, and I feel—because I have mental health issues and I am a sober person—because I felt like I was a letdown. 00:23:05:01 - 00:23:05:07 Rev. Hannah Not accepted. 00:23:05:07 - 00:23:31:01 Benicio Exactly. Not accepted, that I am not worthy of even being in the same sentence as God because of everything that was told to me. Going to Catholic Church, where Prop 8 was on the ballot, and remembering the church saying, “do not vote for it,” because that is essentially evil. 00:23:31:03 - 00:23:50:18 Benicio And so, the more that people understand and love themselves and see that God is there for them, a lot of the community can move away from that, especially like I've seen around and, again, experienced myself too. 00:23:50:20 - 00:24:10:13 Rev. Hannah So that's beautiful. That's beautiful. And you and I and our church will continue to celebrate the many images of God reflected in all people, starting with this week and then moving on to different parts of the world. 00:24:10:16 - 00:24:51:10 Benicio That's what I love about church. I came to church three or four months ago now, to this church. I was testing out the waters of different churches. But this one really called out to me because I felt included. Right. It's not like, “oh, this is where so-and-so,” like the group of men who love men or women who love women. Whereas if I go out to clubs and there's “girls' night” and “guys' night”, you feel a little bit excluded even within the community. Whereas church here, everybody is welcome. 00:24:51:12 - 00:25:00:20 Benicio And sometimes it sounds like a cliché, but you really feel welcome. I really feel welcome and loved. 00:25:00:22 - 00:25:31:19 Rev. Hannah I am delighted with your church. Did you hear him? This is a good moment for us to be reminded that we welcomed you in a loving way. So, I'm glad that you are here, and you're making us become an even better church because you are here. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you so much for taking the time to be with me here and to share your stories and your experiences. 00:25:31:20 - 00:25:34:01 Benicio Absolutely. Thank you. 00:25:34:03 - 00:26:07:08 Rev. Hannah Before posing the discussion questions, I would love to give a big shout-out to Lembi for joining us on Patreon. And thank you, Lembi, and I invite others to join us as well. Before we close our conversation, let me offer you a few questions for discussion. Instead of thinking in an either/or framework, Ecclesiastes invites us to notice the whole landscape of life in between two polar extremes. 00:26:07:10 - 00:26:37:03 Rev. Hannah So, as you reflect this week, I would like you to consider those questions: Where in your life have you been thinking in either/or categories? What might become possible if you imagine a little wider spectrum of possibilities? The next question is: This book names two extremes, like weeping and laughing, silence and speaking. So where do you find yourself 00:26:37:03 - 00:27:06:12 Rev. Hannah somewhere in between those two extremes today? And the last question is: How has someone's story helped you see God or the image of God in a way that you hadn't seen before? I hope you engage in a conversation with your friends and whoever else is around you, and hope you enjoyed this episode of Perspectives. Thanks for listening and see you next week. 00:27:06:14 - 00:27:20:01 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.