00:00:00:15 - 00:00:17:04 Rev. Hannah Long before this Samaritan woman met Jesus at the well, other people had already told her who she was. What happens when the story we believe about ourselves is interrupted by someone who truly sees us? 00:00:17:06 - 00:00:26:14 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, Theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:16 - 00:00:39:06 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah. I'm here with Sheilah Cameron, director of New Life Counseling Center. Welcome back. 00:00:39:07 - 00:00:41:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Thank you so much for having me. 00:00:41:21 - 00:00:51:22 Rev. Hannah Thank you for coming in. You've been on this for five weeks. This is the fifth time. I appreciate you sharing your expertise and your knowledge. 00:00:52:04 - 00:00:52:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Of course. 00:00:52:19 - 00:01:21:02 Rev. Hannah As we continue our series on taking care of mind, body and spirit, which is important, we talk about it. We care about our physical health and financial stability and all the other health, but we often do not think about taking care of our identity. So today we'll be looking at the story from John chapter 4 about this Samaritan woman and her encounter with Jesus. 00:01:21:04 - 00:01:55:20 Rev. Hannah As we talk about identity, here is how the story goes in John chapter 4, verses 7-19, and then 27-29: “A Samaritan woman came to draw water, and Jesus said to her, ‘Give me a drink.’ His disciples had gone to the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him, ‘How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria? 00:01:55:22 - 00:02:24:23 Rev. Hannah Jews do not share things in common with Samaritans.’ Jesus answered her, ‘If you knew the gift of God and who it is that is saying to you, give me a drink, you'd have asked him, and he would have given you living water.’ The woman said to him, ‘Sir, you have no bucket, and the well is deep. Where do you get that living water? 00:02:25:01 - 00:02:53:17 Rev. Hannah Are you greater than our ancestor Jacob, who gave us the well, and his sons and his flocks drank from it?’ Jesus said to her, ‘Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again. But those who drink of the water that I will give them will never be thirsty. The water that I will give will become in them a spring of water gushing up to eternal life.’ 00:02:53:19 - 00:03:26:16 Rev. Hannah The woman said to him, ‘Sir, give me this water, so that I may never be thirsty or have to keep coming here to draw water.’ Jesus said to her, ‘Go call your husband, then come back.’ The woman answered him, ‘I have no husband.’ Jesus said to her, ‘You're right in saying, I have no husband. For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. 00:03:26:18 - 00:04:00:19 Rev. Hannah What you have said is true.’ The woman said to him, ‘Sir, I see that you are a prophet.’”—Just then, several verses later, it goes.—“Just then his disciples came. They were astonished that he was speaking with the woman, but no one said, what do you want? Or why are you speaking with her? Then the woman left her water jar and went back to the city. 00:04:00:21 - 00:04:33:10 Rev. Hannah She said to the people, ‘Come and see a man who told me everything I've ever done. He cannot be the Messiah, can he?’” That's how the story ends. So, one of the things that was striking for me in this text is Jesus' multiple boundary crossing. Yes. And he engages in this conversation without asking about all those things that you ask before taking any patience. 00:04:33:12 - 00:04:38:14 Rev. Hannah Your gender, your age, your identity and all these other things. 00:04:38:16 - 00:04:42:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT How you view yourself, right? How you situate yourself in the world. Yes. 00:04:42:19 - 00:05:04:17 Rev. Hannah Instead of figuring out who she was, he just jumps into a conversation and asks her to give him water. So, he's asking for a favor. Here, I see that he's not trying to fix her, but he respects this lady with dignity. 00:05:04:20 - 00:05:05:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. 00:05:05:22 - 00:05:37:02 Rev. Hannah And just approach her. And it makes me wonder how identity is played out in relationship, like this one brand new relationship you encounter. Or how it's played out in our social relationship. So, we often talk about caring for our mind, body and spirit. So where does identity fit into that picture? 00:05:37:04 - 00:06:01:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. Humans are wired for both identity formation and belonging. So, we need to know who we are, but then we also need to know that we are accepted. Oh, yes. That's a big part of the human experience. And when either of those two things are threatened, then that could impact almost all aspects of our life. 00:06:01:15 - 00:06:01:23 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:06:02:03 - 00:06:25:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We're focusing on mind. So, the mind can be, we can experience anxiety and depression. We can turn to people pleasing for that acceptance and to understand who we are in relation to those around us. There can be perfectionism, constant comparing ourselves. Yes. And even confusion about our self-worth. 00:06:25:11 - 00:06:31:02 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So that's the mind aspect of it. The internal question could be, am I enough? 00:06:31:04 - 00:06:31:17 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:06:31:17 - 00:06:59:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right. And then the body, we could struggle physically if we don't have a good sense of identity and feeling accepted. We could have chronic stress, sleep problems, exhaustion, eating disorders, body shame, the list goes on and on. Addictions, overall nervous system dysregulation. That's often the symptom that shows up in my office first. Sometimes people don't even understand what thoughts they have. 00:06:59:19 - 00:07:23:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's more like there are these physical ailments or physical symptoms. And so, we can do a body scan. Where do you feel it? Oftentimes I do have to refer to doctors, making sure there's not an actual medical diagnosis and an issue within their body. But sometimes what's going on in our mind and our spirit shows up physically. 00:07:23:21 - 00:07:41:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And then spiritually, people who are feeling disconnected from identity and connection with others, they might feel disconnected from God or ashamed. They might fear rejection. They might feel spiritually numb. 00:07:41:06 - 00:07:42:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So that's how I see it. 00:07:43:00 - 00:07:43:07 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:07:43:08 - 00:07:45:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT With mind, body and spirit. 00:07:45:22 - 00:08:21:22 Rev. Hannah Yes. And in order to cope with this fragmentation and disintegration of your body, mind, spirit, when your identity is put into question and your belonging is not welcomed, I noticed that in this story, this lady was assumed to have developed a strategy for surviving. So, she knew how to handle conversations. First of all, she went to draw water at the peak of the sunlight when no one else comes. 00:08:21:23 - 00:08:38:09 Rev. Hannah So that's the first strategy. And the second strategy is to shut down the conversation. She is living with a man. She had five husbands, but her answer was, I have no husband. So she knows how to protect herself. 00:08:38:13 - 00:08:39:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. She leads with. 00:08:39:18 - 00:09:12:00 Rev. Hannah That. Yes. By creating that story. Yeah. And then that was the quickest way to end uncomfortable conversations for her, so that she won't have to deal with extra explanations or judgment from people or awkward questions. Who is this person? Or many of us do similar things. We choose to hear or not to hear stories 00:09:12:02 - 00:09:49:19 Rev. Hannah when our identity is questioned and when our belonging is threatened. And we learn how to manage other people's expectations by choosing to share certain parts of us that feel safest. Sometimes, a little victim story and to cause pity on us sometimes. We're not just telling other people's stories. We sometimes start believing that what others have about us is who we really are, or 00:09:49:19 - 00:09:57:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT how we take on how people talk about us or how they view us. Sometimes we take on those narratives. 00:09:57:20 - 00:10:20:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. So, when we have this survival skill and our own narratives to be tweaked, and there's the narratives that other people impose on us, so does that disrupt a person's sense of wholeness or identity? And how do we face the consequences of those? 00:10:20:12 - 00:10:53:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. Well, we have to understand that this disruption of identity and wholeness happens when painful experiences happen and when they happen repeatedly. Instead of thinking something bad happened to me, people begin to believe something is wrong with me. So, identity is shaped in relationships. And identity may be also shaped by negative or adverse experiences, particularly early in life. 00:10:53:23 - 00:11:32:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And those negative experiences might be things like childhood neglect, inconsistent caregiving, abuse, trauma, rejection, bullying, racism, divorce, addiction, chronic criticism. So, all of those things could shape how grounded we are in our identity. Jesus gently separates the woman from her story. And it sounded like he understood that her worth wasn't in her story in this verse. 00:11:32:09 - 00:11:37:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT He acknowledges her history, but then he doesn't shame her for it. That's what I hear in this verse. 00:11:37:22 - 00:12:12:16 Rev. Hannah Yes. You're so right. And when Jesus asked her about her husband, he sort of seemed to know where she's coming from, the struggles, and understand, reading the context, that this lady had to come to draw water at the peak of sunlight. She knew there was something terrible in her life. Without shaming her, without pretending that he, 00:12:12:18 - 00:12:39:02 Rev. Hannah It didn't happen to her either. Jesus was saying, after he heard her closing down the conversation by saying, I have no husband, he goes, what you have said is true. Affirming her story without shaming, without guilt tripping, without further proving what has happened. 00:12:39:03 - 00:12:43:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT He affirmed her. He validated her. Yes. Experience? Yes. 00:12:43:11 - 00:12:59:13 Rev. Hannah So, he was able to meet her where she was and continue the conversation. So, she realizes that she's finally with someone who knows her story but is introducing her to her past trauma. 00:12:59:13 - 00:13:08:01 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. And how healing that could be, to then have somebody witness, stand or know that about you and not turn away from you. 00:13:08:02 - 00:13:28:19 Rev. Hannah Yes. So that moment became a healing moment. So, with that I was wondering how do shame trauma or exclusion shape the internal stories people live by. And how can we better deal with those internal stories that haunt us? 00:13:28:21 - 00:14:05:01 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. Everyone lives by an internal narrative. It's essentially stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how the world operates. Trauma and shame don't just create painful memories. They often become identity statements. So instead of thinking or saying, I experienced rejection, one might start believing, like, I'm unlovable. Instead of saying things like, oh, I failed in that circumstance. 00:14:05:03 - 00:14:13:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT People might believe I am a failure. Do you see how that internal script goes? It's not just about the experience that then becomes internalized. 00:14:13:14 - 00:14:13:18 Rev. Hannah Worse. 00:14:13:18 - 00:14:41:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Process and it gets worse. Yeah. And so, we internalize it. And those things aren't meant for us to internalize and create our identity around. Those are just circumstances and experiences in our life. Instead of, I was abused, people might say, I believe I deserved it. So these identity statements could create core beliefs, and core beliefs are the lens we see the world through. 00:14:41:19 - 00:15:14:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's how we believe, it's what we believe about our self, others in relationship with us and just how the world operates. So there are these internal narratives that then create core beliefs. And an example of core belief is if a child experiences criticism, the core belief could be, I'm not enough. If someone experiences abandonment, they might believe that people always leave. 00:15:14:09 - 00:15:16:13 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT People will never stay. 00:15:16:15 - 00:15:18:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT If someone experiences abuse. 00:15:19:00 - 00:15:34:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT People might think the world is unsafe. Right. And so then we operate, then we behave according to those internal scripts and those core beliefs in which we see the world. So essentially, is the world a safe place or an unsafe place? 00:15:34:12 - 00:15:46:12 Rev. Hannah This sounds like such an unfair vicious cycle of how others perceive you and how you internalize that. And that's how you view the world. And that goes the cycle. Yeah. 00:15:46:14 - 00:16:16:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And usually those internal dialogs, those narratives and those core beliefs are subconscious. So unless we can be very aware of what our thoughts are, and usually we do that either through journaling practices or in relationship with others, we just go around holding these beliefs and these ideas of our self as if it's just true. 00:16:16:18 - 00:16:38:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT When we start to externalize these things, then we get to kind of tweeze it apart and start being curious about these things. Is it based in truth, or is this just based in negative circumstance? Are there problem-saturated stories that might have some cracks in them? Is there a different way of reframing this? 00:16:38:20 - 00:17:08:07 Rev. Hannah Based on what you have shared, I just can't, it gives me chills, how Jesus broke that pattern by affirming her. Yeah. What you have said is true. And then, he begins by seeing her. He begins the relationship. He resets the relationship or her expectations by seeing her as who she was, and her circumstances haven't changed. 00:17:08:09 - 00:17:35:01 Rev. Hannah And she's still Samaritan. She's still a woman. She cannot delete the fact that she had had five husbands, and the one she's with is not her husband. But it's the same person whose identity is affirmed. Yeah. She goes back to the same village and talking to those people who had shaped the stories that she came to internalize. 00:17:35:03 - 00:17:55:18 Rev. Hannah So I think she began to see herself differently and started breaking that vicious cycle that has haunted her for a long time. So what helps those stories become, what helps those stories begin to loosen or change? 00:17:55:20 - 00:18:37:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Well, research shows that healing happens in safe relationships. We are relational beings. So it often happens in those safe relationships. We change when we experience new corrective experiences that challenge those negative narratives, those old problem-saturated stories, or that challenge those core beliefs. These corrective experiences could include just being vulnerable in secure relationships, therapy of course, healthy community, honest vulnerable conversation, practicing self-compassion. 00:18:37:17 - 00:18:57:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And when I say practice, practicing is very intentional, consistent practice. It's not a one and done thing. Right. To reaffirm ourselves and challenge those negative identities, also grieving losses, spiritual practices and experiencing God's grace. 00:18:57:13 - 00:19:16:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Jesus offers those three things to her. Right. He sees her. He says, I know your story. He stays with her and he doesn't walk away. So he's not scared or repelled by everything she's experienced or who she is. And he offers that living water to her. 00:19:17:00 - 00:19:44:14 Rev. Hannah What a beautiful transformation and healing that's happening in this ancient story. And I noticed that she was leaving the water jar behind. She came with the water jar, expecting no one, expecting to see no one in the daylight. And she runs into this man who has no judgment and who started breaking her barriers in her traumas. 00:19:44:16 - 00:20:19:17 Rev. Hannah And listening to her. So she came looking for the water. She leaves carrying purpose instead. And instead of drawing water, she's drawing people to him, to Jesus. Yeah. So instead of avoiding her neighbors, she runs towards them saying, come and see this man. Yes. So throughout her life she was avoiding people. But that changed. Her identity changes before her circumstances too. 00:20:19:19 - 00:20:36:08 Rev. Hannah So with that story, with that story ending like that, I was wondering, what are the signs that someone is moving towards a more integrated sense of well-being or a more integrated sense of identity for you? 00:20:36:10 - 00:21:19:01 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Well, I think that integration really means that you can accept all parts of your story without having it define our entire identity. Wounds become chapters in our life, and it doesn't become our name. So we often become more integrated when we know ourself more honestly, when we experience less shame. That's, I think, a huge one when we can regulate our emotions more effectively, when we develop healthier boundaries with our self and with others, when we become less driven by fear and approval. 00:21:19:03 - 00:21:25:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT When we have greater self-compassion and when we're doing all of this for our self, we can also do it for others. 00:21:25:11 - 00:21:30:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Also when we can be more vulnerable, when we can tolerate more vulnerability. 00:21:30:09 - 00:21:42:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And when we become more connected with God and others. And ultimately, when we're also connected more deeply with our values. 00:21:42:14 - 00:22:01:04 Rev. Hannah As I was listening to your story today, I was thinking about all those first few years after I moved to the U.S., where my whole identity was shaken up and my beloved sense of belonging was challenged. And I could see all those issues now. 00:22:01:05 - 00:22:01:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. 00:22:01:18 - 00:22:35:20 Rev. Hannah But not then, emerging in different corners. And how I try to see the world through my perspectives and how I try to squeeze God in my life. Yeah. But over time, over the past 30 years or so, I was able to shift the story and shift my identity from being a Korean American international student to being a beloved child of God. 00:22:35:21 - 00:22:54:00 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And placing my story in God's eternal life so that I see where I am coming from and where I'm heading. So that actually shifted my understanding in how I interact in relationship with others. Yeah. 00:22:54:02 - 00:23:29:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's like that primary identity, that identity wasn't so much about being a Korean-American. That's important, but it is part of the whole. But then this primary identity was being a child of God. In reflecting on our talk today, I was remembering, as a young therapist, I was working at a community agency, and there I had to do 52 weeks of anger management. 00:23:29:06 - 00:23:55:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I facilitated anger management classes for men who were getting out of the prison system. Wow. There was a man who was sitting in my group for 52 weeks, and he had been in prison for 25 years. And so to really do a lot of that work, that was part of their probation and integrating back into society. 00:23:55:13 - 00:24:23:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And there was a lot of integrating back into society. Can you imagine 25 years in prison, technology changes. Men didn't know what a cell phone, how to use a cell phone. You know, they didn't know what was going on in media. So there was a lot of also our work was not only anger management and going through anger management issues, but it was really breaking down and understanding what was their internal narrative about themselves. 00:24:23:21 - 00:24:57:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Wow. What were they holding on to? And it was really past identities about what their struggle was like in their upbringing or gang affiliation and what people told them they were. And there was also a lot of shame based on what they had done. So a lot of that work was like what we're talking about here is actually where are we forming our identity and uncoupling from some of the shame and the things that actually aren't part of their identity. 00:24:57:10 - 00:25:03:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. So it's important and powerful work and transformative work for me to be a part of. Yeah. 00:25:03:18 - 00:25:33:09 Rev. Hannah Wow. A lot of powerful story. Every time I sit down and talk to you, I learn something new and something different. And I appreciate having a conversation with you. So thank you so much for being part of this podcast for five weeks, and remembering all the lessons that I learned from your conversation with other pastors, I've come up with a few questions for our listeners to ponder upon. 00:25:33:11 - 00:26:00:13 Rev. Hannah And you can approve or disapprove. So what labels have you carried for so long that you've mistaken them for your identity? Are you spending more energy protecting your reputation than nurturing your identity? And what would change if you truly believed you're fully known and fully loved? These are good questions. 00:26:00:15 - 00:26:01:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I approve of them. 00:26:01:12 - 00:26:22:00 Rev. Hannah Thank you. And I invite all our listeners to either think about those questions or have a conversation with your friends or whoever is surrounding you with these questions. And we thank you so much for listening to our talk and hope to see you again. Thanks. 00:26:22:02 - 00:26:37:23 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org