00:00:01:00 - 00:00:31:20 Rev. Trudy Death happens. Grief sucks, and we need to talk about it. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergywomen at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson, and today I am here yet again with the wonderful and wise Sheilah Cameron, the director of our New Life Counseling Center. 00:00:31:22 - 00:01:01:18 Rev. Trudy We are continuing our sermon series on taking care of our mind, body, and spirit. Today we're talking about taking care of grief. That is a universal experience. To look at this subject, we are using the story of “The Raising of Lazarus,” as it is called, from the Gospel of John, chapter 11. I'm picking out some of the verses within that chapter to make the story more concise. 00:01:01:18 - 00:01:28:10 Rev. Trudy So, if you want to read the whole thing, it's John chapter 11, and it goes like this: “Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. Mary was the one who anointed the Lord with perfume and wiped his feet with her hair. Her brother Lazarus was ill, so the sisters sent a message to Jesus: ‘Lord, he whom you love is ill.’” 00:01:28:12 - 00:01:54:02 Rev. Trudy Now the Scripture goes on to say that there was a purposeful delay before Jesus actually headed toward them: For two days he stayed in the place where he was. In this time, the Scripture says, he says, “This illness doesn't lead to death, but to the glory of God.” Then we pick up the story at verse 14: “Jesus told the disciples plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead.’” 00:01:54:04 - 00:02:20:17 Rev. Trudy And then at 17: “When Jesus arrived, he found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, some two miles away, and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them about their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him. While Mary stayed at home, Martha said to Jesus, ‘Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 00:02:20:19 - 00:02:44:01 Rev. Trudy But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.’ And Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise again.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.’ And Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live. 00:02:44:01 - 00:03:07:23 Rev. Trudy And everyone who believes in me will never die.’” And then in verse 32: “When Mary came where Jesus was and saw him, she knelt at his feet and said to him, ‘Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.’ When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was greatly disturbed in spirit and deeply moved. 00:03:08:00 - 00:03:34:09 Rev. Trudy He said, ‘Where have you laid him?’ And they said to him, ‘Lord, come and see.’ And Jesus began to weep. So the Jews said, ‘See how he loved him.’” Then, at verse 43: “Jesus cried out with a loud voice, calling, ‘Lazarus, come out!’ And the dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth. 00:03:34:11 - 00:04:04:06 Rev. Trudy Jesus said to them, ‘Unbind him, and let him go.’” The story of Lazarus has... yeah, we know it. Sometimes we love it. I think sometimes we don't. One of the things that strikes me in this is Mary and all of the people who had come to be with her. All of them are weeping, and the grief here just feels so immediate, so tangible. 00:04:04:08 - 00:04:07:14 Rev. Trudy And we can all kind of relate to that. I think. 00:04:07:14 - 00:04:13:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT What strikes me in that is that there was community around. 00:04:13:14 - 00:04:21:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There was not weeping in isolation, and there were people sharing in that despair. 00:04:21:07 - 00:04:22:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT With her. Yeah. 00:04:23:00 - 00:04:32:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And that makes a difference from what I have found in my work with clients in their grieving process. The community makes a difference. The biggest difference, actually. 00:04:32:08 - 00:04:50:02 Rev. Trudy We have a really hard time as a culture with death and with grieving it. I think a lot of people feel awkward around that. So, the idea of having a community around you, you think, “Oh, give me a couple of my best friends, and that's about it.” Right? 00:04:50:06 - 00:05:17:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. And that's okay, to just have a couple of your best friends. That's enough community. Even one friend might be enough community. Some people might need more. Some people might be disappointed if their best friend, or people who they thought would be there, aren't there. That's also part of complex grief: feeling that deep disappointment for those who don't show up in the way that we envisioned them to show up. 00:05:17:09 - 00:05:19:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:19:02 - 00:05:26:01 Rev. Trudy How can we be better as a culture? What do you see happening in our world, our setting, around... 00:05:26:03 - 00:05:53:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We have to first normalize death and dying. We have to have conversations, larger conversations, and maybe early on in life, with death and dying being not apart from the life cycle, but very much a part of the life cycle. We need to normalize that. I think people struggle with that because they don't want to view their own mortality, and they don't want to view themselves dying. 00:05:53:21 - 00:06:20:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, then we shy away from that. I think, just starting off, maybe it's as simple as having conversations with young children around pets dying. That's often when it comes up first, right? It might not be a friend or a grandparent; it might be that pet. So lean into that, and let's have conversations around what happens when things die. 00:06:20:20 - 00:06:34:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Is this part of the life cycle? And so, we could start to normalize it and destigmatize talking about death. That allows us to grieve more easily. 00:06:34:09 - 00:06:35:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:06:35:06 - 00:06:58:07 Rev. Trudy I remember serving in Cheyenne, Wyoming, and there was a ranching community there. Being on some of the roundups of the cows and the branding and all that, at one point we noticed one of the calves had been kicked by the commotion and was struggling. We figured there was a puncture of the lung. 00:06:58:09 - 00:07:05:03 Rev. Trudy And I remember kids going over and watching the calf die. 00:07:05:06 - 00:07:05:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:06:00 - 00:07:28:20 Rev. Trudy And asking me, as the pastor, to say a prayer for them. In that setting, they watch the calves be born on ranches, right? That kind of life-and-death cycle, I think, is probably more evident for them. I live in the community … I will not even put it on my community. 00:07:28:20 - 00:07:30:15 Rev. Trudy I will say, this is what I do. 00:07:30:15 - 00:07:30:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. 00:07:30:23 - 00:07:38:02 Rev. Trudy I don't even like—this is awful—I don't even like to buy chicken breast with bones because I don't want to realize it used to be alive. 00:07:38:03 - 00:07:46:13 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT To be alive. Yes. So, we're kind of disconnecting a little bit from this life cycle. 00:07:46:19 - 00:07:48:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:48:10 - 00:07:55:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT You know, and this isn't passing a lot of judgment, but sometimes it's like the goldfish dies. 00:07:55:01 - 00:07:55:18 Rev. Trudy Right? 00:07:55:19 - 00:08:16:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And then some parents are like, or the bunny dies, “I gotta hurry up and get another one while they're at school so they don't have to struggle with grief.” That's where it starts. It's like, what are we protecting them from versus having a moment to really educate them on this life cycle process, and then not fear the emotions that come up with grief? 00:08:16:18 - 00:08:40:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT The emotions, as painful as they are, are helpful, healthy, and normal. We don't need to be afraid of those emotions. That will actually make us more resilient and stronger. We could also talk about not just death, but the connection that was there and how painful it was because we cared deeply and we loved. So, let's not try to put Band-Aids over... 00:08:40:13 - 00:08:41:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:08:41:06 - 00:08:41:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT All of that. 00:08:42:04 - 00:08:59:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT But really, just take it for what it is and use those moments to dig deeper and maybe start to talk about things like, “Well, what happens? Where do people go when they die?” Then we could go back to the Word and talk about what Jesus says. What does God say about what happens? 00:08:59:04 - 00:09:00:01 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. 00:09:00:06 - 00:09:03:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We can start exposing children and others to that. 00:09:03:12 - 00:09:04:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:04:07 - 00:09:13:16 Rev. Trudy I think Christianity in general has moved to a place where we expect everything to be good all the time. And that's not the way it is. 00:09:13:18 - 00:09:22:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Well, in the Bible, there's not good all the time. There's a lot in there. There's a lot of emotion, pain, and suffering, actually, in the Bible. 00:09:22:04 - 00:09:28:16 Rev. Trudy So that's part of the richness of life, right? And it's part of the way in which God shows up. 00:09:28:17 - 00:09:34:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's like, if we have just highs all the time and all the pleasant feelings... 00:09:34:05 - 00:09:34:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:34:20 - 00:09:48:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We won't really appreciate them as much. Life is like a heartbeat, right? There are ups and downs, and we've got to understand what happens in those valleys to appreciate the peaks. 00:09:48:15 - 00:10:02:01 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. So, if we live in a world where we shy away from death, we may not recognize grief. How do you think grief shows up for us these days? 00:10:02:03 - 00:10:06:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I think this is a good time to maybe talk about the stages of grief. 00:10:06:12 - 00:10:07:07 Rev. Trudy Actually, yes. 00:10:07:07 - 00:10:34:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I've heard of... Yeah. In 1969, there was a psychiatrist, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross. She was treating terminally ill patients, and she ended up actually pivoting and looking at what was happening to their loved ones, the survivors, the people who were in bereavement. She ended up creating a framework called the Five Stages of Grief. 00:10:34:07 - 00:11:05:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT She introduced this model in her book On Death and Dying. The five stages of grief are denial, which is shock and avoidance, or avoiding the reality of what has happened. Then there's anger, which is frustration and resentment. Oftentimes, that is even anger turned toward God. I'll see my patients have anger turned toward the person who passed. 00:11:05:21 - 00:11:22:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT “How come you left me? How could you do this to me?” There's also the stage of bargaining, which is trying to negotiate and find a way out of pain, or trying to control the situation. “If I only did this. I should have done this.” So the should've, would've, could've. 00:11:22:06 - 00:11:22:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:11:22:17 - 00:11:28:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's trying to make sense and order the chaos that's going on in the loss. 00:11:28:19 - 00:11:29:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:11:29:18 - 00:11:53:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Then there's the depression stage, which is, of course, despair and profound sadness, and acceptance: coming to terms with the loss and adjusting to the new normal. But the five stages have been criticized because people thought it was supposed to be a linear process. 00:11:53:07 - 00:11:53:22 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:11:54:00 - 00:12:12:06 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And it's not linear at all. The author actually clarified decades later: this is a way to understand what the stages are, but oftentimes we will waft in between the stages or even skip stages altogether. 00:12:12:07 - 00:12:13:01 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:12:13:04 - 00:12:16:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Because it's a unique approach. It's a unique experience. 00:12:16:06 - 00:12:39:03 Rev. Trudy Everybody grieves differently. So that makes good sense. In this story, I think both Martha and Mary show signs of that. I think, in some way, Martha is the one that says, “You could have been here. You would have saved us.” But there was a “but” really quickly after her statement to that. 00:12:39:05 - 00:12:55:21 Rev. Trudy And I feel like that represents those of us who don't really want to acknowledge it. It's the denial part of it. She was very quick to smooth over any kind of negativity. 00:12:56:00 - 00:13:02:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And that's problematic because then we're looking for solutions versus acknowledging what is. And what is, is hard. 00:13:02:13 - 00:13:04:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:04:14 - 00:13:26:04 Rev. Trudy And then Mary. Mary is the one I kind of like a lot in this one, right? Jesus delayed two days. It was four days that Lazarus had been gone in the tomb, and she just walks right up to Jesus and says, “You should have been here.” 00:13:26:06 - 00:13:27:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And the anger. 00:13:27:08 - 00:13:49:03 Rev. Trudy The anger. That's right. You should have been there. And that anger toward God. I find it really interesting. The Gospel of John is the one gospel that is most confident in saying Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus is God. They're one and the same. And yet, here's this story. 00:13:49:04 - 00:14:10:03 Rev. Trudy I mean, if I were Mary, and if I believed—and she has confessed she believes in Jesus as God—I would be like, “I'm not going to say that to God.” But the fact that it's here in this story, I think, really does give us that permission to just feel the feels. 00:14:10:04 - 00:14:15:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. All of the feelings, and trust that God understands and can handle it. 00:14:15:13 - 00:14:16:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:14:16:04 - 00:14:22:02 Rev. Trudy Exactly. And the beautiful thing about this: Jesus weeps. 00:14:22:02 - 00:14:25:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yes. There's a sadness and despair. 00:14:25:18 - 00:14:26:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:14:27:03 - 00:14:54:23 Rev. Trudy Which I think the profound reality is that empathy. Even though there's hope, even though Jesus comes around to say, “I'm the resurrection and the life,” and we know that's a part of our faith, in that moment there is solidarity in the grief and the pain, even though the other moments will come. 00:14:55:00 - 00:15:02:13 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And both can be experienced at the same time, too. Even if there is hope and someone has faith... 00:15:02:15 - 00:15:12:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There can still be anger, frustration, sorrow, and despair. That doesn't cancel out our hope. Both things can happen simultaneously. 00:15:12:13 - 00:15:14:14 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:14:16 - 00:15:26:04 Rev. Trudy So, what do you think? You mentioned that we talked about the community. I think part of the reason we want to buy a goldfish before the kid comes home, a lot of times, is... 00:15:26:04 - 00:15:28:06 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Just to make things easier. 00:15:28:08 - 00:15:43:12 Rev. Trudy Okay. It is a goldfish bowl. But still, I think we as friends sometimes don't know what to do. And I think a lot of that is because we don't want to feel. 00:15:43:14 - 00:15:49:15 Rev. Trudy We don't want to get too close to that because we don't know what it'll do to us. So how can friends help? 00:15:49:16 - 00:16:11:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Sometimes it might not be that we don't want to feel, but we might feel like, “Oh gosh, I don't want to say the wrong thing.” So it's this: “I'm not showing up because I don't know what to say. I don't want to say the wrong thing.” Like, “I don't want to mess up.” But that's... 00:16:11:11 - 00:16:11:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:12:00 - 00:16:33:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's highlighting you in that versus going to the person in grief and just acknowledging how painful it is. Acknowledging the sorrow they're in and just sitting with them in that. And then even maybe allowing yourself to say, “I don't know what to say right now. 00:16:33:20 - 00:16:34:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. That goes. 00:16:34:22 - 00:16:38:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT But this hurts, and I will always be here.” 00:16:38:08 - 00:16:39:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:39:07 - 00:16:49:15 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT When we try to come up with solutions or pleasantries, that's when we start to invalidate the person's experience of grief. 00:16:49:17 - 00:16:50:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:16:50:11 - 00:16:51:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, let's not do that. 00:16:51:18 - 00:17:01:01 Rev. Trudy I hate those pleasantries. I hate those sing-song, “Everything's going to be okay.” Mary's response. Or I'm sorry, Martha's. 00:17:01:01 - 00:17:23:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Martha's. It's well-intended, so we do have to extend grace to ourselves if we say that. I know I'm probably guilty of saying those things. But we show up, and we show up imperfectly, and we try. Then we realize that we don't have to have a magical script. We just show up, we're present, and we acknowledge what's going on. 00:17:23:06 - 00:17:24:19 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:17:24:21 - 00:17:54:01 Rev. Trudy The Gospel of John is a very theological gospel. It offers some really big ideas about who Jesus is. One of the commentaries I read noted that oftentimes the disciples can't see that big offering of theological truth because they're too focused on the situation at hand. 00:17:54:03 - 00:18:18:23 Rev. Trudy I've always thought that there was a little bit of grace after death in the family's need to create and prepare for a memorial service. It was a little bit of a distraction that made it not all quite so overwhelming all at once. But that's very situational. 00:18:19:00 - 00:18:24:08 Rev. Trudy And so, I don't quite know if that's the right way to look at that. 00:18:24:10 - 00:18:44:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, in preparing for a memorial service, sometimes people find that helpful. It's like, “Give me something to do because these feelings of grief are really overwhelming.” So, then they want to get into, “Give me a task and let me focus on the task,” versus focusing on the feelings that are arising for me. 00:18:44:12 - 00:18:48:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And that might be helpful in the initial stages of grief. 00:18:48:21 - 00:18:49:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:18:49:14 - 00:19:05:02 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT But we do want to come back to checking in on what the feelings are, because that could be an act of avoidance. Avoiding the feelings too long could prolong our grief and cause complications for us. 00:19:05:04 - 00:19:30:17 Rev. Trudy So, here's something interesting. The longer I've been in ministry, the more I have seen the scheduling of a funeral or memorial service move from being two or three days after the death, which had been tradition for a long time, to months out. And I just wonder what that might do for the grieving process. 00:19:30:18 - 00:19:44:14 Rev. Trudy I know, for a memorial service, I see in the families the greater pressure to get everything in and everything right as they're working through honoring their loved one. 00:19:44:16 - 00:20:01:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's an interesting perspective that you have, seeing a trend with stretching it out a little bit. I wonder if that's more of a scheduling, logistical thing: families living far away and wanting to get it right in that way. 00:20:01:18 - 00:20:02:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:20:02:13 - 00:20:17:05 Rev. Trudy I know that's what they tell me. “We want to make sure everybody can come.” I'm just traditionalist enough, I guess, around this that I want to say death is supposed to interrupt life. It's supposed to. 00:20:17:05 - 00:20:33:02 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right? And also, it is that ritual of having a service, any kind of ritual, that acknowledges it and puts closure to it. That closure is sometimes very necessary in order to get to that stage of acceptance. 00:20:33:02 - 00:20:34:03 Rev. Trudy Right, right. 00:20:34:04 - 00:20:50:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I've worked with a lot of clients who are like, “I just want to hurry up and get there. Even though I don't want to be there, I want to hurry up and get there because that puts some kind of closure to it.” But everyone's very unique. Some people are like, “I am so numb with this that I can't even think straight. 00:20:50:00 - 00:21:11:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I can't. I'm not even fully present.” There are some people whose body is there, but then they'll come back in our grief support group and say, “I don't even remember who was there. I don't remember what was said,” because there's that numb shock still going on. So, it's really an individual experience. 00:21:11:12 - 00:21:13:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And we don't know until we're there. 00:21:13:11 - 00:21:21:02 Rev. Trudy I know I always tell families, especially as they're trying to get it perfect, that we can't do it all. 00:21:21:03 - 00:21:22:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:23:00 - 00:21:25:03 Rev. Trudy And we don't have to do it all at once. 00:21:25:04 - 00:21:25:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:26:00 - 00:21:31:10 Rev. Trudy Because grief is not like that. It's not one and done, right? It's something you have to work on. 00:21:31:11 - 00:21:41:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There's also that sometimes people will have the service, and then the meals will start, but the phone calls will stop. And then it's like, okay, well, we wrapped it up. 00:21:41:11 - 00:21:41:20 Rev. Trudy Yes. 00:21:41:21 - 00:21:49:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And we're kind of moving on. Oftentimes, right after the service is when people will start to feel it. 00:21:49:18 - 00:21:50:02 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:21:50:03 - 00:21:58:15 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And then they need people's presence, and they need the support. So that's an interesting dynamic. That's a tricky thing to deal with. 00:21:58:16 - 00:21:59:14 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:21:59:16 - 00:22:09:22 Rev. Trudy And I've also heard that sometimes it's better for friends to just do something rather than say, “Let me know what you need.” 00:22:09:23 - 00:22:25:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Definitely. You want to be very specific with, “Let me help you do laundry. Let me help you with the drop-offs for kids. Let me help you with making arrangements for X, Y, and Z.” So be very specific. 00:22:25:09 - 00:22:25:18 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:22:25:19 - 00:22:33:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT As opposed to just putting it on the person who's in grief, because they don't know everything. They need help with everything, and yet they're not going to tell you to begin. 00:22:33:23 - 00:22:40:21 Rev. Trudy Exactly. So, what's your advice to somebody who is going through grief, who has lost somebody? 00:22:40:21 - 00:23:08:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I think it's important to allow yourself to check in with yourself and feel all the feelings, and to give yourself permission to mourn in a way that matters to you. Also, as much as we want people to be very specific in how they're going to help us, if we do identify something that we need help with... 00:23:08:08 - 00:23:11:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Ask. Ask somebody. 00:23:11:04 - 00:23:11:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:11:22 - 00:23:15:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There might be disappointment, but we also need to get our needs met. 00:23:15:12 - 00:23:17:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:23:17:05 - 00:23:20:19 Rev. Trudy I am just practicing that. 00:23:20:21 - 00:23:21:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Asking for help. 00:23:21:23 - 00:23:23:20 Rev. Trudy Finally. Right. I'm proud of... 00:23:23:20 - 00:23:25:04 Rev. Trudy You. Yeah. Well. 00:23:25:04 - 00:23:40:10 Rev. Trudy Thank you. I think I wish it were easier for everybody to just be available for one another, and to not feel so... 00:23:40:12 - 00:23:47:04 Rev. Trudy Unable to express what it is we're feeling, and not to have it be so difficult to actually understand what you're feeling. 00:23:47:06 - 00:23:51:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's inconvenient sometimes to help people. 00:23:51:19 - 00:23:54:10 Rev. Trudy Well, there it is. Yes. I have a schedule. 00:23:54:11 - 00:24:21:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah, I have a schedule, but life is inconvenient. Being a friend sometimes is really inconvenient because their life and deaths don't go according to our plans. But we have to go back to what is in our value system. If we value community, if we value being there for people, then we organize our schedule and we be present for each other. 00:24:21:18 - 00:24:41:07 Rev. Trudy If I'm honest, it's those moments when I have been invited into the space of such intense emotion, when love has brought forth such grief. They are the most sacred moments I've ever had. And I wouldn't turn it away. 00:24:42:04 - 00:24:50:14 Rev. Trudy If I had the opportunity. And yet, at the same time, after each conclusion of a funeral, I'm back to the checklist. 00:24:50:14 - 00:24:52:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT But what you just said was. 00:24:52:15 - 00:24:52:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:24:53:05 - 00:25:18:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's not only us being available for the giver, right? But it's also what happens to us, too, being of service to people. Something magical happens where we have a shift in perspective, where something changes within us, too. That is a sacred thing. So, it's not just me helping you or doing a favor for you, the person who's in grief. 00:25:18:19 - 00:25:26:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's also like there's something here that happens for me, and that's an experience that is so important. 00:25:26:21 - 00:25:28:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:25:28:15 - 00:25:34:20 Rev. Trudy It's something that just touches at the core of how we were made, I think. 00:25:34:22 - 00:25:35:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:25:35:13 - 00:25:38:08 Rev. Trudy That, so many other things doesn't reach. 00:25:38:09 - 00:26:05:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. I feel the same way being a therapist. My clients think it's one way, and I'm like, you guys have no idea how you're shaping my life. Of course, I can't express to them all the ways, but the fact that I'm so blessed hearing your story or being with you in this grief gives me a different perspective on so many things. I feel more equipped and resilient because I was there with them. 00:26:05:15 - 00:26:07:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:26:07:06 - 00:26:19:00 Rev. Trudy Is that motivation enough to really take care of grief—and ourselves as we're going through that, and others as they grieve around us? Thank you so much. 00:26:19:02 - 00:26:20:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Thank you. 00:26:20:11 - 00:26:40:11 Rev. Trudy You're the best. I hope you've enjoyed listening to our conversation. We have some questions we want you to consider. As you listen to this, you might want to find a little community or a best friend or two to talk through what these questions might bring up in you. And so, I offer these for your consideration. 00:26:40:12 - 00:27:06:11 Rev. Trudy The first one is: What gets in the way of your grieving? The second one is: What hope do you see in this story, or any tenet of faith, really? And the final question is: Is grief ever a good thing? Lots of food for thought. We thank you so much for joining us, and we'll see you next time. Have a good one. 00:27:06:13 - 00:27:22:10 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.