00:00:00:20 - 00:00:22:14 Rev. Hannah Afraid of stormy days? Jesus never promised a life without storms. Instead, he talked about trees, fruit, and foundations. What if the most important preparation for life’s storms isn’t about avoiding them, but growing deeper roots before they arrive? 00:00:22:16 - 00:00:36:14 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their muses on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:36:16 - 00:01:15:06 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. I’m Reverend Hannah, here in the studio with Reverend Doctor Brittany Juliette Hanlin. We are glad you’re joining us today for a standalone episode. In a world that often values quick outcomes and glowing appearances, Jesus tells a different kind of story, one about trees and foundations. These images may seem ordinary at first, but they invite us to consider what’s growing within us, what sustains us, and what kind of foundation we’re building our lives upon. 00:01:15:08 - 00:01:57:12 Rev. Hannah Our reflection today comes from Luke chapter 6, verses 43 through 49. Listen now to these words from Jesus: “A good tree doesn’t produce bad fruit, nor does a bad tree produce good fruit. Each tree is known by its own fruit. People don’t gather figs from thorny plants, nor do they pick grapes from prickly bushes. A good person produces good from the good treasury of the inner self, while an evil person produces evil from the evil treasury of the inner self. 00:01:57:14 - 00:02:26:07 Rev. Hannah The inner self overflows with words that are spoken. Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, hears my words, and puts them into practice. It’s like a person building a house by digging deep and laying the foundation on bedrock. 00:02:26:09 - 00:02:58:18 Rev. Hannah When the flood came, the rising water smashed against that house, and the water couldn’t shake the house because it was well built. But those who don’t put into practice what they hear are like a person who built a house without a foundation. The floodwater smashed against it, and it collapsed instantly. It was completely destroyed.” 00:02:58:20 - 00:03:07:02 Rev. Hannah Trees and houses. While preaching on the mountain. 00:03:07:04 - 00:03:09:19 Rev. Hannah What did you hear? 00:03:09:21 - 00:03:38:22 Rev. Brittany You know, I heard so much. This whole passage makes me think of my grandmother, really and truly, because I can get myself pretty worked up about a myriad of things—stress, anxiety, the future, all the things. And she would always remind me to remember who you are and to create a foundation that is strong, right? 00:03:38:23 - 00:04:01:12 Rev. Brittany And so, I think about when I do feel a little stressed and I don’t have her words to rely on anymore, I’m like, well, what was the foundation that was laid, you know? And that’s always been my faith. So, I always go back to that. So, I really hear, obviously they’re Jesus’s words, but I hear my grandmother repeating them to me as a child. 00:04:01:13 - 00:04:02:06 Rev. Hannah Wow. 00:04:02:08 - 00:04:10:04 Rev. Hannah Yeah, that’s a good experience, growing up being reminded of the foundation instead of, ‘Get your work done.’ 00:04:10:10 - 00:04:11:13 Rev. Brittany Yeah, no. 00:04:11:18 - 00:04:14:09 Rev. Hannah That's a great nurturing coming from your grandmother. 00:04:14:10 - 00:04:15:20 Rev. Brittany It was. Yeah. 00:04:15:22 - 00:04:43:22 Rev. Hannah Yeah, yeah. We have lots of anxiety, lots of distress, and distractions as well in this world—lots of last-minute pressure, always on demand, and lots of things. Yeah. And I think also what’s going on in the world influences how we feel about our identity as well. 00:04:43:23 - 00:04:44:13 Rev. Brittany Absolutely. 00:04:44:14 - 00:05:15:15 Rev. Hannah And I think about Jesus talking about trees and houses when he’s living in a world filled with political conflict and religious debates, under the Roman Empire. And yet, when he had a moment on the mountain with lots of people, he wanted to talk about trees and houses. And I was wondering why. 00:05:15:17 - 00:05:49:00 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Well, I think for me, trees are like—obviously a tree can be uprooted, right? But it’s oftentimes rare, right? And trees are pretty—we need them, of course—but trees are very steady and ever-present. They may sway with the wind, you know what I mean, but they’re very solid most often, and they do produce for us. 00:05:49:00 - 00:05:55:05 Rev. Brittany Right. Fruit. And so, thinking about that, it's like... 00:05:55:07 - 00:06:15:14 Rev. Brittany I think that nature has a lot to teach us about life in general. We don’t always pay attention to it, but I think that Jesus is trying to get folks to realize the continuity between who we are and what nature teaches us. 00:06:15:15 - 00:06:47:12 Rev. Hannah Yes. He didn’t go after those people who were giving him a hard time, right? But he was talking about this natural stuff that takes forever to grow—like from a seed to a tree, and to bear fruit. It’s years after years of planting, watering, pruning, and all that—caring for that, and waiting time, indefinite waiting time. And a house is not built in a day. 00:06:47:14 - 00:07:03:14 Rev. Hannah It takes forever. It takes planning, digging, and laying out a foundation as well. So, I think Jesus was just trying to tell people, be patient. 00:07:03:16 - 00:07:28:00 Rev. Brittany Be patient with yourself, right? Exactly. That’s where you started talking, like, yeah. Because I think that sometimes we expect this immediacy of patience to come to us, or for us to always feel good, you know? And when we don’t feel good, we just want to feel better. And sometimes it’s like, “no, slow down.” 00:07:28:00 - 00:07:39:06 Rev. Brittany Right. And also, I think that Jesus is saying, like, you can’t just do one good thing and think you’re done. You know what I mean? 00:07:39:08 - 00:07:44:17 Rev. Hannah It's not just once for all. It's correct. It's continuous work. 00:07:44:18 - 00:07:45:09 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:07:45:10 - 00:07:50:20 Rev. Hannah It takes time. And after your house is built, it still needs a lot of work to be done. 00:07:50:21 - 00:07:51:11 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:07:51:12 - 00:07:53:02 Rev. Hannah And it's never finished. 00:07:53:03 - 00:07:55:00 Rev. Brittany Never, ever. 00:07:55:04 - 00:08:25:17 Rev. Hannah So, he’s sort of steering people’s attention from one action into a lifelong formation that takes a long time. And I was wondering if that has something to do with when Luke was written. It’s like 50 years after Jesus left the disciples. So, 50 years after I left you, what would you remember 50 years after? 00:08:25:19 - 00:08:26:19 Rev. Brittany So much? 00:08:27:00 - 00:08:30:14 Rev. Hannah How old will you be? Old. 00:08:30:16 - 00:08:34:09 Rev. Brittany A seasoned saint. 86. So, 86. 00:08:34:11 - 00:09:05:03 Rev. Hannah Think about the community that was left 50 years after Jesus left. A lot of the first witnesses were aging or had passed. And so, the church was growing, but there were lots of distractions in the world. And they gathered, and they called them Christians, following Christ, and they used the confession as their measurement of faith, right? 00:09:05:07 - 00:09:28:13 Rev. Hannah But they weren’t remembering what Jesus did with their actions, so there wasn’t any embodiment, right? So, I was wondering if the author of Luke was trying to capture that moment and remind his community that discipleship isn’t just about calling Jesus ‘Lord, Lord.’ 00:09:28:15 - 00:09:29:09 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:09:29:10 - 00:09:31:00 Rev. Hannah It takes more. 00:09:31:01 - 00:09:31:23 Rev. Brittany A lot more. 00:09:32:01 - 00:10:03:02 Rev. Hannah It’s your formation. And they must have had a question about their own identity, as who they are living in the Roman Empire and living as part of the larger Jewish community, but still spiritually and religiously, they were set apart. Yeah. So, they had to build their own identity, asking who we are and how do we follow Jesus. 00:10:03:04 - 00:10:31:23 Rev. Brittany I think I read in the commentary, Reverend Hannah—Reverend Doctor Hannah Ka, PhD, hahaha! Anyway, that this was not included in Matthew’s Sermon on the Mount. Matthew was talking about false prophets. And so, for me, it’s very interesting that Luke is taking it away from other people and putting it back to ourselves, right? And this idea that … 00:10:32:00 - 00:10:51:00 Rev. Brittany to be good means that you have to do good. You can’t just think about being good. You have to do good. And in doing good, you produce good fruit. And that good fruit blesses the world and helps people, and yourself, you know. 00:10:51:02 - 00:11:32:08 Rev. Hannah Yes. So, I think you are talking about integration of your inside and your words and your actions. And people can live a life without being integrated holistically. We can say something and spend money in a way that’s the opposite of what you say or what you believe. And these things can happen. And so, the Lukan community must have been facing some issues, a lack of integration between their identity and their actions. 00:11:32:13 - 00:11:50:01 Rev. Hannah And Luke is bringing his Lord Jesus to bring them back, to be grounded, become grounded. And you said something, but … 00:11:50:03 - 00:11:52:16 Rev. Hannah Well, you continue and I'll think about it. 00:11:52:16 - 00:12:18:00 Rev. Brittany So, it’s like one of those things for me that I’ve always found … you know, I’m far from perfect. Again, it’s a work in progress every day. But something that has always been really important to me is not just to be a person who’s a Christian in the church, right? Not just to sing, “Lord, I lift your name on high” when we’re in the sanctuary, right? 00:12:18:00 - 00:12:32:05 Rev. Brittany But then go outside and be a menace to society, to service workers, or to strangers, or in general to your family. You know what I mean? Who you are, your public self and your private self, should be integrated. Yes, right. 00:12:32:06 - 00:13:00:18 Rev. Hannah And that’s what I call redemption, salvation. Salvation comes when your inner self and your outer self are aligned, right? When they’re aligned, you find peace and comfort, and it’s easier to live with what you believe, to say what you believe, and to follow with your actions what you say. And … 00:13:00:20 - 00:13:28:07 Rev. Hannah So that brings me the insight about trees and houses. Think about their lives. The storms come and smash against the house, and the tree has to survive the drought season and the rainy seasons, and all the other wind attack and people’s harm to their bodies. 00:13:28:12 - 00:13:34:05 Rev. Brittany And insects that are foreign to them. Yes. Learning about the beetle or something? 00:13:34:06 - 00:14:05:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. That is to say, Jesus is not promising a storm-free life or a tree in a greenhouse. Jesus is saying that you need to be deeply rooted in the ground, or you need to dig deeper into the ground to build the house, to grow as a tree. And it takes a lot of effort, and your life won’t be rosy. It will be full of challenges ahead of time. 00:14:05:02 - 00:14:21:19 Rev. Hannah So, hold on one second—when he says, ‘When the storm comes,’ not ‘if the storm comes,’ that means it’s guaranteed that you’re going to face some storms coming towards you. 00:14:21:21 - 00:14:47:22 Rev. Brittany Yes, exactly. And I think there are two things. One, when I was a child, right—and I don’t know if anybody else’s church did this, but I grew up in a Baptist church—before we would have worship, we’d have devotions, and folks would be invited in the congregation to sing a hymn, so we’d have a little hymn sing, and someone would get up and give a testimony, you know. 00:14:47:22 - 00:15:10:01 Rev. Brittany And I always enjoyed devotions, but I was mortified because I was like, “I don’t want to go through any of these challenges. I don’t want to have a testimony.” And I told myself as a little girl, I will never have a testimony, right? Because I had heard—I mean, I’m listening, right?—and I’m picking up on the things that people are sharing. 00:15:10:01 - 00:15:26:15 Rev. Brittany And I was like, “oh, I have to do it the right way. I have to do it the right way.” And I think in my mind, I assumed that if I did it the “right” way, whatever that is, if I went left instead of right or went right instead of left, that I would avoid whatever challenges life had. 00:15:26:15 - 00:15:52:00 Rev. Brittany And as I—And it’s something that kind of kept me bound for a really long time into my young adulthood—that was like, no, honey, you don’t get to avoid a storm because you did it the right way. That’s not how life works. We’re all going to go through storms. So that’s something that really stuck out to me when I was reading this and thinking about my own life, like, “oh yeah, this is some of where that came from.” 00:15:52:00 - 00:16:13:18 Rev. Brittany And then there’s also a gospel song by Mary Mary, and one of the lines is, ‘Nobody told me that the road would be easy.’ And then it goes on to say, ‘But I don’t believe he brought me this far to leave me.’ And so, I come back to that sometimes when I’m having those moments where I’m like, why is this happening to me? 00:16:13:23 - 00:16:32:02 Rev. Brittany And then I have to remember, honey, you are not exempt from human suffering, okay? As sweet as it would be for you to be like, “Oh, I’m so sorry, I don’t understand suffering,” it’s what makes us human, right? It’s our joy and our sorrow that make us human. It’s the calm and the storm that make us human. 00:16:32:02 - 00:17:04:08 Rev. Brittany And I think that that’s part of the reason that the stories and the parables and the things that we read about Jesus’ life—it’s not just these isolated incidents. Like, yeah, Jesus is talking about a storm when there isn’t one, but Jesus also calmed a storm that we know about, you know what I mean? So, he too was a part of the elements that life brings and was an example of how you can still persevere to do the good and faithful thing, even when you are broken and tired and in despair. 00:17:04:09 - 00:17:41:21 Rev. Hannah Yes, and every time we run into struggles, it’s not always the same issues. Different issues come to you as a surprise, and we are not equipped to face that specific issue. But when your core is grounded, the way we deal with what’s facing us may be easier or calmer or more peaceful than rocky waves, right? And so, it’s more about our preparation for stormy days than a firm foundation. 00:17:41:21 - 00:18:12:12 Rev. Hannah There’s a firm foundation, and we need to do the digging work to dig deeper, to have our foundation deeper. So, I was thinking a lot about how we approach our faith community or faith. We approach it sometimes like a restaurant where you order your own spiritual food: I want X, Y, Z here, I want this. Have you done this? 00:18:12:14 - 00:18:16:05 Rev. Hannah Yes. Take out the onions. No salt on my— 00:18:16:07 - 00:18:18:12 Rev. Brittany No salt on my fries, no salt on my patty! 00:18:18:14 - 00:18:53:16 Rev. Hannah And that kind of thing is—so yes, we are nourished in the church spiritually, and we are inspired by the spiritual food we get from the church. But we also need to know that it’s a spiritual gym, right? That you need to row your boat, right? Dig deeper and go through seasons, through the nights and days, vulnerable out in the field as a tree. To grow, you need both the sun and the night. 00:18:53:17 - 00:18:54:07 Rev. Brittany Yeah you do. 00:18:54:08 - 00:18:59:14 Rev. Hannah And. But we sometimes romanticize the sunny days. 00:18:59:15 - 00:19:02:03 Rev. Brittany Oh! Over against the dark days. Oh, all the time! 00:19:02:03 - 00:19:18:17 Rev. Brittany But then when I look back on it, I mean, yes, there are days that were so great that I’m like, “oh, I wish I could live that day again.” But there are also days, in hindsight—not in the midst of it—but there are days in hindsight that I’m like, “oh, that was tough, but I learned a lot.” 00:19:18:17 - 00:19:45:11 Rev. Brittany Or, you know, “that was tough, but such and such showed up for me, and that deepened our relationship,” you know what I mean? So, it’s like, yes, we do romanticize the beauty, but I also think that when we take a moment to look back, some of those hard days did forge some of the strength and some of the tenacity that we have and that we carry forward, you know. 00:19:45:13 - 00:20:12:08 Rev. Hannah Yes, yes. And that goes back to our inner self. I was laughing about Jesus using the inner self a few times in this short storytelling on the mountain, and we forget about our inner self and focus on how we look and what car we drive, what kind of housing you live in, but the inner self … 00:20:12:14 - 00:20:27:03 Rev. Hannah And whenever I talk about inner self, I am reminded of Richard Rohr, who talked about the loyal soldier. So, one of my favorite books of his is Falling Upward. 00:20:27:04 - 00:20:28:04 Rev. Brittany Yeah, it's a good book! 00:20:28:05 - 00:20:59:21 Rev. Hannah So, the first half is shaping your vessel, and the second half is about filling that vessel with the core values. And we live our first half of life as the loyal soldier who works hard, follows the rules, earns approval, does the right thing, and builds a life. And there’s goodness in that one, but you cannot live that way for the rest of your life! 00:21:01:01 - 00:21:32:02 Rev. Hannah And Rohr suggests that there comes a point where the loyal soldier cannot take you farther, and that soldier has to die like Jesus died, and a new self needs to be redirected from that life. So, from the loyal soldier to soul, from control to trust, from certainty to surrender, from proving itself worthy to knowing you’re already loved. 00:21:32:04 - 00:21:38:08 Rev. Hannah So that kind of inner self work might be needed. 00:21:38:10 - 00:21:49:15 Rev. Brittany It absolutely is needed. Yes, I love that, Reverend Hannah. I need you to send me that—no, really! I’ve been thinking about surrender for very different reasons, on another note. 00:21:49:17 - 00:21:50:21 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Yes. 00:21:50:21 - 00:22:27:19 Rev. Hannah Surrendered stuff—you laugh about it and wanted to have it whenever I said, “I’m God’s favorite,” not because I’m given favor all the time, but when things come my way, God always gives me the patience to deal with it and the courage to face it, and sometimes to surrender myself to the things that I cannot change, but step up to the things that I can possibly use my voice for. 00:22:27:20 - 00:22:28:03 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:22:28:04 - 00:22:32:22 Rev. Brittany So, I mean, I struggle with surrender a bit. 00:22:33:03 - 00:22:34:18 Rev. Brittany I'm a … I'm gonna hold on tight! 00:22:34:19 - 00:23:02:06 Rev. Brittany And I am—I mean, anyway, yes, yes, I need that reminder. I needed that reminder. When you started talking about Richard Rohr, I started thinking about The Inward Sea by Howard Thurman. And he says, ‘There is in every person an inward sea, and in that sea, there is an island, and on that island is an altar, and standing guard before the altar is an angel with a flaming sword.’ 00:23:02:11 - 00:23:24:00 Rev. Brittany ‘Nothing can get by that angel to be placed upon that altar unless it has the mark of your inner authority. Nothing passes the angel with the flaming sword to be placed on your altar unless it be a part of the fluid area of your consent. This is your critical link with the eternal.’ And it’s like— 00:23:24:01 - 00:23:30:15 Rev. Hannah Oh. That link is the last words in that one. 00:23:30:16 - 00:23:36:12 Rev. Brittany The link, the “ your crucial link with the eternal.” 00:23:36:14 - 00:23:49:14 Rev. Hannah And so, let me bring in Chinese philosophy right there. 00:23:53:00 - 00:24:26:02 Rev. Hannah We want to believe that we are the agent of our life, but we are part of the universe, is what the Chinese believe. And at the age of 30, I think, you learn to understand your position in the world. At 40, you can deal with temptations. At 50, you learn heaven’s mandate for you. 00:24:26:04 - 00:24:33:09 Rev. Hannah So, that’s the calling in that philosophy. So, the calling is not just for your life, right? 00:24:33:10 - 00:24:59:11 Rev. Hannah It’s part of the universal life. And your calling is tied, bound, by others’ calling. And that goes back to the image of tree and house. A tree is not for itself, right? And a tree has many branches and leaves and fruits. All of that has to support the entire tree, or the tree supports all their lives. 00:25:00:19 - 00:25:19:12 Rev. Hannah For them to be fruitful and helpful for others, right? Same thing with the house. Back then, the house was built for many people, not just for one-person households. And there’s a communal aspect, a universal aspect. 00:25:19:16 - 00:25:23:11 Rev. Brittany And a house doesn't exist for itself. Right? 00:25:23:13 - 00:25:24:08 Rev. Hannah Has a purpose. 00:25:24:09 - 00:25:27:01 Rev. Brittany Exactly. For other people, just like the trees. 00:25:27:03 - 00:25:31:07 Rev. Hannah The calling, right? And it’s used—trees don’t eat their own fruits! 00:25:31:07 - 00:25:33:21 Rev. Brittany Exactly. Exactly, right. 00:25:33:23 - 00:25:53:06 Rev. Hannah Fruits are for others. So, this is a good reminder for us to think about the circle of life and how the transformation of an individual is tied to the transformation of the community, and how that’s linked with the eternal. 00:25:53:08 - 00:26:05:05 Rev. Brittany So, I know that we usually say—I always go to “the cost of discipleship,” and you don’t always like that term. So, would it be a better term to say “the work of discipleship”? 00:26:05:06 - 00:26:05:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:26:05:14 - 00:26:06:18 Rev. Hannah Or the formation? 00:26:06:19 - 00:26:07:12 Rev. Brittany The formation? 00:26:07:13 - 00:26:08:10 Rev. Hannah Okay. 00:26:08:12 - 00:26:28:21 Rev. Hannah The formation of discipleship. I believe that there is a spiritual muscle to be developed, and the spiritual muscle may not be visible to others, but the spiritual muscle is the one that gives you the strength and courage and wisdom and capacity to welcome the storms. 00:26:28:22 - 00:26:30:00 Rev. Brittany Yeah, it's like the anchor. 00:26:30:00 - 00:26:32:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yeah. 00:26:32:02 - 00:26:35:08 Rev. Hannah Cost of discipleship—that’s consumerism. 00:26:35:08 - 00:26:42:08 Rev. Brittany I knew it! I knew as soon as I said it. I’m like, oh God, here we go, capitalism at it’s finest, baby! 00:26:42:08 - 00:26:45:12 Rev. Brittany The cost—I’m like, oh God, here we go, baby! 00:26:45:12 - 00:26:52:03 Rev. Hannah I hate it when I hear “cost of discipline” as a pastor of discipleship. 00:26:52:03 - 00:27:11:09 Rev. Hannah It’s a journey. It’s a formation. It’s invisible work we do in our good days and bad days. Good days don’t grow us much, but it’s always the stormy days that help us grow and become more grounded. 00:27:11:11 - 00:27:12:18 Rev. Brittany The discipleship gym. 00:27:12:18 - 00:27:19:17 Speaker 4 Okay, okay. All right. The spiritual gym for discipleship. Okay, okay. 00:27:19:18 - 00:27:24:19 Rev. Brittany That's what we need to be focused on. Reverend Hannah. All right. This was great. 00:27:24:20 - 00:27:29:18 Rev. Brittany I feel like I got my soul blessed a little bit from our conversation, so thank you. 00:27:29:20 - 00:27:31:05 Rev. Hannah Same here. 00:27:31:07 - 00:27:59:23 Rev. Brittany We have a few questions that we’d like for you to ponder on your own or with folks in your community, but just take some time to reflect on them. The first question is: What habits or influences are shaping the condition of your heart? The second: Are there areas where your actions don’t match your values and your beliefs? I know mine—I have a few. And then the third would be: What practices help you stay grounded when life becomes difficult? 00:28:00:03 - 00:28:12:12 Rev. Brittany We hope that you will take some time to reflect on those questions, and we would love to hear how you’re doing in your spiritual gym of discipleship. We’ll see you next time. Bye! 00:28:12:14 - 00:28:26:02 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org