00:00:01:08 - 00:00:18:23 Sarah Amos Who should be heard in worship? How should they be heard? Whether trained or amateur, quiet or rowdy, sweet or brash, everyone with breath and with a voice is called to praise the Lord. 00:00:19:00 - 00:00:32:15 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:32:17 - 00:00:43:11 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. This is Reverend Hannah. I'm here in the studio with Sarah Amos, our Director of Music Ministries and Principal Organist. 00:00:43:12 - 00:00:44:14 Sarah Amos That's my title. 00:00:44:15 - 00:00:45:16 Rev. Hannah Welcome! 00:00:45:18 - 00:00:47:19 Sarah Amos Thank you. Thank you for having me. 00:00:47:20 - 00:00:53:19 Rev. Hannah I'm so excited to hear our conversation today and how it unpacks. 00:00:53:21 - 00:01:02:10 Sarah Amos This is the first time I've been on a podcast, and it feels very strange and foreign to me. Okay. 00:01:02:12 - 00:01:14:02 Rev. Hannah Well, take it easy, okay, and let's then have you start on something scripted, okay? Would you like to introduce our text for this? 00:01:14:06 - 00:01:47:11 Sarah Amos Our text is Psalm 150. I'll be reading the New International Version: "Praise the Lord. Praise God in his sanctuary. Praise him in his mighty heavens. Praise him for his acts of power. Praise him for his surpassing greatness. Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet. Praise him with the harp and lyre. Praise him with timbrel and dancing. Praise him with the strings and pipe. 00:01:47:13 - 00:02:01:03 Sarah Amos Praise him with the clash of cymbals. Praise him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord." 00:02:01:05 - 00:02:21:05 Rev. Hannah Well, I heard a repetition of "Praise the Lord." And lots of different musical instruments. And it's more about just sound and instrument and breath and joy all together in one song. Yes. As the conclusion of the entire book of Psalms. 00:02:21:06 - 00:02:22:02 Sarah Amos Yes. 00:02:22:02 - 00:02:34:13 Rev. Hannah And then no explanation of why: "Praise the Lord." So, can you tell us a little bit about how you ended up choosing this text and what stands out to you? 00:02:34:14 - 00:03:05:01 Sarah Amos I like this text because there is no specificity, no direction, no blueprint of how to praise other than pick up an instrument and praise. Or, if you don't have an instrument, use your voice or even dance. There's nowhere that says that you have to play in tune or in time with each other, or at a certain volume. It just says play. 00:03:05:03 - 00:03:28:08 Rev. Hannah I hear you expressing a little sense of less organized, more organic, yeah, through a full expression of music there. Do you sometimes think that we as church people tend to organize and institutionalize the music aspect of the worship? 00:03:28:10 - 00:04:07:02 Sarah Amos Institutionalize is an interesting word. I've played for more than one denomination of church, and I found that there are different rules, different opinions on what is considered appropriate. There's the appropriate and there's the inappropriate for music in a church. And you can change out those words with sacred or secular. Wow, is this music sacred in the sense that it is meant to praise God, or is it considered secular? 00:04:07:02 - 00:04:43:09 Sarah Amos And actually, it's not belonging in a worship setting. And I find that distinction incredibly subjective, and often those decisions are made either from personal taste or they're reactionary. Secular music, for instance, if you have instrumental music, how do you tell if it's sacred or secular? There's not really a distinction. 00:04:43:10 - 00:04:44:15 Rev. Hannah There are no words to it. 00:04:44:15 - 00:05:13:05 Sarah Amos There's no words to it. So, it's all about, I would say, connotation. You know, everything that's in for the pipe organ—you think of the pipe organ, most of them exist in churches. But if I play a march by John Philip Sousa on the organ, yeah, is that sacred or secular? And is it appropriate if I do that? 00:05:13:09 - 00:05:19:13 Sarah Amos There was going to be a variety of opinions as diverse as the people who express them. 00:05:19:14 - 00:05:59:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. And more than the spoken words in worship, the music sung or played in worship has a little more blurred line between sacred and secular. So, you've also transitioned from a Catholic upbringing to Methodist church and a variety of religious music. So, in your understanding or in your formation in music, what has been taught as sacred and secular previously, and what is your understanding and your view on the distinction between those two? 00:05:59:02 - 00:06:32:21 Sarah Amos That's interesting, the distinction. With the Catholic Church, I've noticed that there have been more cut-and-dry rules. One of them that I can think of off the top of my head: during the season of Lent, instrumental music is prohibited unless it's accompanying singing. So, organ preludes, organ postludes—you're not supposed to play them during Lent, because this is a season of giving up excesses. 00:06:33:01 - 00:06:41:08 Sarah Amos And so that implies that instrumental music by itself is not sacred. It is purely ornamental. 00:06:41:09 - 00:06:45:22 Rev. Hannah Okay. Is it something like giving up meat and... 00:06:46:02 - 00:06:47:20 Sarah Amos Exactly. It's probably. 00:06:47:21 - 00:06:49:01 Rev. Hannah More luxurious. 00:06:49:02 - 00:07:19:23 Sarah Amos Fasting from luxury, in the same way that flowers aren't on the altar in Lent. We're not supposed to have instrumental music. That's one of the instances. For weddings too, I've played a variety of weddings at different venues. If you choose to get married in a Catholic church, the greatest hits for weddings—the Mendelssohn da da da da da da da da da. 00:07:20:00 - 00:07:34:21 Sarah Amos Yes, it's that famous march, and Wagner, the bridal march, the boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. When you think of a wedding scene from a movie, you think either one of those two pieces. 00:07:34:22 - 00:07:36:18 Rev. Hannah Globally, globally. 00:07:36:20 - 00:08:05:10 Sarah Amos That's right. You can't use them in a Catholic church. And the reasoning that they provide is that they're secular, not sacred. They're both excerpts from opera. But if you think about it, Canon in D, that's okay. That's a string quartet just arranged for organ. So, the distinction, I think, was made more as a reaction to the popularity of those two pieces. 00:08:05:10 - 00:08:15:07 Sarah Amos Those two pieces were used in Princess Victoria's wedding, the daughter of Queen Victoria. And that started a global trend. 00:08:15:08 - 00:08:18:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. Even to this date? 00:08:18:01 - 00:08:32:10 Sarah Amos Yes. So, whether or not they're sacred or secular, perhaps it's more of a distinction that we want to have the music feel like more of a sacrament as opposed to a ceremony? 00:08:32:11 - 00:09:04:07 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yes. And you just reminded me of people making comments or asking us, can we do more of the traditional Christian hymns in worship over against some of the contemporary or even secular music that seemed to be sacred to our hearts? And I want to say, in tradition, Charles Wesley used a lot of songs sung in pop settings. 00:09:04:08 - 00:09:04:23 Sarah Amos Yes. 00:09:05:00 - 00:09:11:03 Rev. Hannah To add their new understanding of grace so that people can remember. 00:09:11:05 - 00:09:42:22 Sarah Amos There are so many hymns where the tunes are folk melodies that have been repurposed. Folk melodies are great because they are easy to remember and they're singable. So, it's the repurposing of something that's already familiar to use for worship, to use in a sacred context. So, the distinction between sacred and secular, that's even more blurred. If you go far enough back to anything, you could argue. 00:09:42:23 - 00:09:46:06 Sarah Amos Nothing's completely sacred. Nothing's completely secular. 00:09:46:07 - 00:10:05:10 Rev. Hannah That's great. And in your answer, I heard the words easy to remember and more singable, yeah. So what? What's your understanding of the worship music in the people's spiritual experiences? 00:10:05:12 - 00:10:34:04 Sarah Amos Of worship music? Well, I've heard a lot of opinions and preferences. The big common one within Methodism: usually a lot of churches model, we have a traditional service with the choir and with the organ and with hymns, and then we'll have a contemporary service, maybe with a praise band, with things that are amplified, and maybe it's more of a concert experience. 00:10:34:06 - 00:11:35:04 Sarah Amos The validity of music, whether it's sacred or secular, I think that's subjective, but some music has a practicality. I call this a singability. And I am sitting in a very awe-inspiring position at the organ bench, is that I get to, through this instrument, play something that functions as a means of unification. Hymns are not purely ornamental or beautifully aesthetic, which they are beautiful, but they are able to unify hundreds of voices to sing at the same time, to implicitly know how to breathe together at the same time and sing in the same key and at the same speed, so that we are all reflecting on the same text in unison. 00:11:35:06 - 00:11:36:17 Sarah Amos And that's a powerful thing. 00:11:36:18 - 00:11:43:11 Rev. Hannah That's a lot more communal than people might think of, dear personal preferences of worship music. 00:11:43:12 - 00:11:44:18 Sarah Amos I think so. 00:11:44:20 - 00:11:52:04 Rev. Hannah And I also heard a little bit of your of more participation from the congregation. 00:11:52:06 - 00:12:34:11 Sarah Amos Congregational participation is a very long sought-after effect in worship. It goes all the way back to the Protestant Reformation and, for a long time, the performance of music in worship was limited to those with music literacy and those with training. Yes. Martin Luther wanted singing to be for the masses. So, he thinks, let's come up with these very recognizable, easy-to-memorize tunes, these chorales. 00:12:34:13 - 00:12:54:08 Sarah Amos Someone doesn't necessarily need to know how to read music. They don't necessarily need to know how to read text. They just have to listen to this long introduction. And then maybe by the third or fourth verse, because these things had ten, 11, 12 verses, then they would have picked it up. Yes, yes, yes. 00:12:54:09 - 00:12:59:13 Rev. Hannah I remember people like guiding others to sing with the hand motions. Yes. 00:12:59:14 - 00:13:02:19 Sarah Amos Of notes. Yes. 00:13:02:21 - 00:13:59:12 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that actually brought not only the combination of communal aspects of worship and music and individual expression of faith, it also highlighted the fact that in worship music, our mind is integrated with our heart and our verbal expression is matched with musical expression. So, I see a little more unity and harmony and of different things and overcoming the binary distinction between sacred and secular and spoken and sung and music with words and instrumentals. 00:13:59:12 - 00:14:09:00 Rev. Hannah So, what do you see in worship music as important and integral to people's faith formation? 00:14:09:01 - 00:14:49:02 Sarah Amos I think accessibility—for me, that's a nonnegotiable. Why are we limiting who's able to sing? And of course we offer different levels of participation in our worship at FUMC. We have the choir, which everyone is invited to participate in, but we have the hymns, which everyone really is invited to sing, whether or not you can read music, whether or not you think you have a beautiful voice. That is a proud culture of Methodism, is congregational singing. 00:14:49:03 - 00:14:49:15 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:14:49:15 - 00:15:21:17 Sarah Amos So, accessibility is very important. Some of the hymns in our hymnal are not all equal. I think the singable factor, yes, is very important, just as much as the text is. I know you're a very text-oriented person when it comes to choosing which hymns that we have on Sunday mornings, and I'm a very melody-oriented person. Is what we're going to expect the congregation to sing practical? 00:15:21:18 - 00:15:22:19 Sarah Amos Is it realistic? 00:15:22:20 - 00:15:37:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. I picked up from you and looked at those possible hymns you asked me about June 7, and for the first time, I looked at the hymnal from a singability. 00:15:37:11 - 00:15:38:11 Sarah Amos Interesting. 00:15:38:13 - 00:15:58:15 Rev. Hannah Okay, I'm learning and from our previous conversation, preparing for this conversation for our listener, you said something beautiful about how you see your organ music to be part of the worship, and I think that was very beautiful, and I want our listeners to hear that story. 00:15:58:20 - 00:16:08:09 Sarah Amos So, I'm trying to recall our conversation from earlier. Well, I was thinking about... 00:16:08:11 - 00:16:32:11 Sarah Amos Something—if I can do a quick tangent to Reverend Brittany. She's not a fan of preaching sermons. I don't know if this is news to anyone, but I think it's so important that she still does it because her need to be heard isn't the driving reason why she should be heard. It's because she has wisdom. 00:16:32:13 - 00:17:13:13 Sarah Amos I don't feel an inherent need to perform or be heard when I'm on the organ bench, but I recognize that what I am producing has a function to the service. You hear a prelude, you know that it's time to get in a more meditative and receptive line of thought. Even the tower bells outside will intone the opening hymn or one of the hymns and let people know that it's time to get into your pews and find your seat. 00:17:13:14 - 00:17:35:06 Sarah Amos And then, of course, the postlude. That's a great, joyous sending out. Okay, so everything is to serve the greater service. Everything has a function as a means, and it's not me performing. It's the music being woven into the service. 00:17:35:08 - 00:18:13:12 Rev. Hannah Yes, I hear you seeing the music as part of the worship and to enhance people's congregational worship life and their relationship with God and with their pew buddies in their singing as well. So, one question—it's not in our mind—but if you were to imagine worship music in a creative way, in the more Sarah Amos way. 00:18:13:14 - 00:18:21:02 Rev. Hannah Okay, what would you like to steer us into music wise. 00:18:21:03 - 00:19:00:22 Sarah Amos Music wise, I tend to find a sweet spot between familiarity and vulnerability when it comes to someone having a meaningful experience. If something's too way far-fetched, they're going to be uncomfortable and shut down. I enjoy improvisation to a degree, to an extent—not just, okay, go sing something, but something with structure. I'm a fan of Taizé songs. 00:19:01:02 - 00:19:35:02 Sarah Amos They're very repetitive. They're based on a very simple chord structure, and they're written in a way that it fosters improvisation. So, I know not everyone maybe is comfortable using their voice to sing on a chord progression, but perhaps something softer. Percussive instruments, something that makes noise even to have movement in a way that moves, that depicts the music. 00:19:35:04 - 00:19:54:11 Sarah Amos It's definitely something outside of the Protestant “frozen chosen” tradition of Methodist church. But I think that invitation to 00:19:54:13 - 00:20:12:05 Sarah Amos really think of yourself, your individual self, be part of a bigger collective of music making, that you're contributing your own uniqueness in something that everyone is doing. I think that's a very powerful experience. 00:20:12:07 - 00:20:16:21 Rev. Hannah And that just sounded like Psalm 150 moment. 00:20:16:22 - 00:20:19:09 Sarah Amos Just pick up an instrument and play. Yes. 00:20:19:11 - 00:20:30:04 Rev. Hannah And join the music team. Okay, good. And that you wanted to share with our congregation or listeners about worship music? 00:20:30:06 - 00:21:15:22 Sarah Amos Share with our... Yes, I look at the camera. Your opinions are valid. I found that everyone has a certain familiarity and appreciation to a certain style. That is also a great invitation to experience things that are new, and I would encourage anyone, if you experience an initial dislike or discomfort to a certain style of music, ask yourself why and try to really diagnose that discomfort. 00:21:15:23 - 00:21:38:03 Sarah Amos Is it because it's unfamiliar? Is it because it reminds you of an unpleasant experience? Is it because it's difficult to sing? Yeah, it's okay to like and to dislike, okay, but to really examine the why behind it might foster an openness to different styles. 00:21:38:07 - 00:21:46:19 Rev. Hannah It sounds like a great invitation from Sarah Amos to the congregation to join you as you explore newness in music. 00:21:46:21 - 00:21:52:02 Sarah Amos I certainly hope so. Yes. That openness would be greatly appreciated. 00:21:52:04 - 00:22:26:14 Rev. Hannah And as I listen to your insight about worship music, I … you start questions in me. What would be your recommendation to our listeners who may not be worshipers, but who might be spiritually longing and musically connecting? So, what would be your recommendation to these listeners to explore sacredness in their everyday music life? 00:22:26:16 - 00:22:58:22 Sarah Amos I would encourage anyone to go out and be around live music making. There are so many opportunities in San Diego to go out and hear a free choir concert, or walk through Balboa Park, and you'll likely hear music on a weekend. There is an experience, I think, that is with live music making, that can foster a sense of participation just by being present. 00:22:59:00 - 00:23:18:02 Sarah Amos That's a great place to start. If music making seems foreign or inaccessible, just being in an audience around people who are singing, humming along, tapping their foot is a great place to start. 00:23:18:03 - 00:23:49:01 Rev. Hannah Awesome. Thank you. That sounds like you're encouraging people to surround themselves with music. Oh, right. Thank you so much for sharing your insight and your wisdom and your understanding of music. And I enjoyed hearing every part of your explanation. And I'm so delighted that you're here at First Church, serving as Director of Music Ministries and Principal Organist. 00:23:49:02 - 00:23:51:09 Sarah Amos Very long title. Yes. Thank you. 00:23:51:10 - 00:23:56:02 Rev. Hannah They appreciate you. And would you like to pose questions to our listeners? 00:23:56:06 - 00:24:07:22 Sarah Amos I have three questions for our listeners: What makes music sacred to you? 00:24:08:00 - 00:24:21:19 Sarah Amos When do you feel encouraged to worship using your voice? And: How has music reached you when words alone could not? 00:24:21:21 - 00:24:30:11 Rev. Hannah These are wonderful questions for our listeners to have conversations around them, just like you and I did. And thank you so much for joining us. 00:24:30:14 - 00:24:34:00 Sarah Amos Thank you for having me, listeners. 00:24:34:02 - 00:24:36:04 Rev. Hannah See you next time. 00:24:36:06 - 00:24:49:18 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org