00:00:00:00 - 00:00:27:06 Rev. Trudy We quote Micah 6:8, but can we live it? That's what we're talking about. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. 00:00:27:08 - 00:00:48:19 Rev. Trudy We are completing our short series that we've entitled The Do's and Don'ts of Times like These. We look at the book of Micah, one of the lesser prophets. And this is the one that builds up to everybody's favorite verse of the Bible. I think everybody I know loves Micah 6:8, so I'm glad you are joining us. 00:00:48:19 - 00:01:19:03 Rev. Trudy I wonder if our newest Patreon member is going to be listening. Do you think? We've got to give a shout-out to Sharon. She's our newest Patreon member, and we're so grateful that you joined. All of you who are listening, we invite you to join too. It's a lot of fun to be on that site. But for today, we are looking at the last little bit of Micah, and we're looking at his command on behalf of God: to do justice. 00:01:19:09 - 00:01:44:03 Rev. Trudy Oh, here we go. Are you ready? Yes. All right. We're going to start at the beginning of the pericope. So, I'm reading from Micah, chapter 6, verses 1 through 8. And in my Bible—this is the Common English Bible—it has little headings on each of the sections, the places where you can interrupt the storyline or where it kind of gives a complete package. 00:01:44:05 - 00:02:14:21 Rev. Trudy In my Bible it says, "God's Dispute with Israel." That's the title. Here's what it says: "Hear what the Lord is saying: Arise, lay out the lawsuit before the mountains; let the hills hear your voice! Hear, mountains, the lawsuit of the Lord! Hear, eternal foundations of the earth! The Lord has a lawsuit against his people; with Israel he will argue. ‘My people, what did I ever do to you? 00:02:15:01 - 00:02:40:22 Rev. Trudy How have I wearied you? Answer me! I brought you up out of the land of Egypt; I redeemed you from the house of slavery. I sent Moses, Aaron, and Miriam before you. My people, remember what Moab's king Balak had planned, and how Balaam, Beor’s son, answered him! Remember everything from Shittim to Gilgal, that you might learn to recognize the righteous acts of the Lord.’ 00:02:41:00 - 00:03:02:21 Rev. Trudy With what should we approach the Lord and bow down before God on high? Would I come before him with entirely burned offerings, with year-old calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with many torrents of oil? Should I give my oldest child for my crime; the fruit of my body for the sin of my spirit? 00:03:02:23 - 00:03:20:00 Rev. Trudy He has told you, human one, what is good and what the Lord requires from you: to do justice, embrace faithful love, and walk humbly with your God.” 00:03:20:02 - 00:03:26:11 Rev. Hannah This is the verse that we often put on our T-shirts for social action. 00:03:26:13 - 00:03:28:00 Rev. Trudy And tattoo their bodies. Come on. 00:03:28:02 - 00:03:57:11 Rev. Hannah Yes, and it feels very simple. And we have a tendency to reduce the depth and the entirety of Micah into that one verse. Yeah. But that simplicity comes at the end of a complex conversation between the Lord's messenger and the people of Israel. And the question underneath that passage is not just about, "What does God want?" 00:03:57:13 - 00:04:02:05 Rev. Hannah It's more about, "How do I approach God?" 00:04:02:07 - 00:04:02:19 Rev. Trudy Yes. 00:04:02:20 - 00:04:35:21 Rev. Hannah And am I acceptable to God? And what does God want from me in times like these? Yeah, and it speaks to some of the anxious, religious, guilty people who are weary and tired, overwhelmed, and who may be sincere enough to respond rightly. Yeah. But I also hear the structure of this chapter six now that you read the entire chapter. 00:04:35:22 - 00:05:07:05 Rev. Hannah Yeah. As an entrance liturgy, as people gather at the temple for their yearly festival, bringing offerings. Yeah. And the messenger sends out God's message. And at the entrance of the temple, they hear the question, "What can I bring?" Yeah. And then they do. It's like a responsive reading. 00:05:07:07 - 00:05:08:00 Rev. Trudy There you go. 00:05:08:01 - 00:05:27:03 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And that's how, like, what? How should I come before the Lord? Yeah. As I enter into the temple. Yeah. Is their attitude right here? And that's how I started seeing this text in a different light. 00:05:27:04 - 00:05:51:21 Rev. Trudy It's either their attitude, or Micah is telling them that, yes, your attitude should be right. Yeah, definitely. Words that are meant to go out across all of Israel. Yes. And so that idea, that they're said in this way in the temple setting as a call to worship, is pretty fun. I appreciate it, and I can certainly hear in this passage many different voices. 00:05:52:00 - 00:05:56:13 Rev. Trudy Right. It's not one person saying the whole eight verses because that. 00:05:56:15 - 00:05:58:05 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Three different parties. 00:05:58:08 - 00:06:15:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. This interpretation, Common English Bible, says it's a lawsuit and suggests that this is really a courtroom instance. You know that. 00:06:15:05 - 00:06:31:12 Rev. Trudy Which I think is just really interesting to me because you hear that language in the interpretation I read. And if we break out the elements of a lawsuit, the elements of what happens when you go into a court, you can hear that there is the summons to court. God has something to say to you people, so listen up. 00:06:31:13 - 00:07:05:05 Rev. Trudy Right. And then there's a call to the witnesses or the judges, if you will. This could be either. And you hear the mountains: listen, mountains, to the lawsuit of the Lord; hear, eternal foundations of the earth. So, it's creation that is the witness to what's happening. And part of what is at stake is not just the way the people respond to God or what they are to bring to God, but it's also who God is. 00:07:05:07 - 00:07:17:10 Rev. Trudy Yes. Right. Yeah. And so, you've got the witnesses that are all gathering, and then you hear the plaintiffs and they. 00:07:17:12 - 00:07:42:02 Rev. Trudy They have been given—the plaintiff is God, first of all. And the defendants have benefited from what the plaintiff has given to them. Right. So, for instance, you know, I'm not a lawyer. But, you know, lots of times in small claims court: we had a contract, and you didn't fulfill it. 00:07:42:02 - 00:08:03:00 Rev. Trudy But I did this and I did that and the other thing. But yeah, I'm still not going to pay you, for kind of this back and forth. And that's what I hear when God begins to say, "What have I—what have you not noticed that I've done for you?" Right. Talks about Exodus. Right. Talks about even those times in the wilderness. 00:08:03:01 - 00:08:06:19 Rev. Trudy Yes. And then he had commandments. 00:08:06:20 - 00:08:30:15 Rev. Trudy The commandments, all of that stuff. This is what I have done for you. And you still don't know me. Especially in the context of justice, loving kindness, or anything, right? Justice. They are brought out of Egypt, for Pete's sake. Right. That's a God who loves justice and loving kindness. All the commandments have that as a foundation. 00:08:30:16 - 00:08:49:18 Rev. Trudy Or at least that's how I see a lot of that, as the way they are going to be a people. It's going to be different than they were in Egypt. Yes. Right. So, you've got that going on, and then you have the response of the defendant. They finally get to answer the claims against them. 00:08:49:19 - 00:09:11:14 Rev. Trudy Right. And that's where they say, well, how about if I give you burnt offerings or other sacrifices? And then they begin to exaggerate. How about thousands of rams? Nobody has ever been required to do that in ancient times. How about many torrents of oil? How about your firstborn child? That was not—human sacrifices— 00:09:11:14 - 00:09:20:13 Rev. Trudy Another conversation we might get to later. Yeah. But they get exaggerated because they still don't understand what God really wants. 00:09:20:15 - 00:09:28:11 Rev. Hannah Right. And also, yeah, it can be understood in a court text or temple entrance. 00:09:28:14 - 00:09:29:20 Rev. Trudy Oh, yeah. I think it works both ways. 00:09:30:00 - 00:09:46:01 Rev. Hannah Both ways. And this was written around the time the Northern Kingdom was about to fall. So, these are signs of a falling nation, yeah, and oppressing people and doing all sorts of injustices. 00:09:46:06 - 00:09:49:21 Rev. Trudy Complicity. You know, with the ruling powers, all of that stuff. 00:09:49:21 - 00:10:05:16 Rev. Hannah And the people's offering, in exaggeration, shows they're trying to deal with God's justice with things—external things, what they have—to make it easier on them. 00:10:05:17 - 00:10:06:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:06:21 - 00:10:19:19 Rev. Hannah And yeah, God's messenger is sending out: before that, more religion, more sacrifices, more offerings, and more intensity and cost 00:10:19:20 - 00:10:20:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:20:13 - 00:10:32:21 Rev. Hannah Is what was offered. But that's not what God wants. That's not things. Right. But that's where Micah 6:8 comes. 00:10:32:22 - 00:10:56:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah, exactly. And that's where the verdict should come in, at least in the flow of the court case scenario. You know, the defendants say, "I'll give you all of this stuff," and that's when the verdict should come in. Right. But it's Micah who comes in instead. And there's no punishment here. There's no repercussion. 00:10:57:00 - 00:11:26:05 Rev. Trudy It is just a gentle reminder: this is who God is. And it's more of a moral teaching. God doesn't want you to say the words and pretend everything's okay. God wants you to deal with it, deal with the injustices, deal with living in a different kind of community without having your own kingdom. It's the moral conclusion that is surprising in this text. 00:11:26:06 - 00:11:59:23 Rev. Trudy Does that make sense? Yeah. Yes. And he's recommending not transactional change, but a way of living, a way of being, and being in relationship with God and with your neighbors. Yes. Exactly what's needed. Yeah. That is such a hard sell, right? Yes. It's a hard sell. I mean, if we were all of a sudden overtaken in America by Russia— 00:12:00:00 - 00:12:24:15 Rev. Trudy Whatever that was—that was the fear when I was growing up, right? Soviet Union, you meant that. There you go. That's what I meant. But if we had another entity come and change everything for us and put different restrictions and everything on us, I don't think we'd be wanting our justice; it would look different than God's justice. 00:12:24:16 - 00:12:55:15 Rev. Trudy We would say, “let's fight back,” because you're in survival mode. Yeah. And it becomes more about your safety over others. Yeah, exactly. Here everyone is included. Which is why these other two commands in this are important, too, you know, because the walking humbly—right. If you aren't more important than anybody else. 00:12:55:16 - 00:13:14:08 Rev. Trudy You're not more important. Your way is not more important than God's way. Right. Yeah. And the loving kindness—you know, loving kindness doesn't take a backseat to vengeance, doesn't take a backseat to war. Come on now. Right. So, you have all of this stuff. And once you get those things in, I mean, it's a mixture. 00:13:14:08 - 00:13:42:03 Rev. Trudy It's not linear, but once you learn how to be humble before God, once you understand what loving kindness is, then you can maybe understand your justice maybe it is not the right kind of justice. Maybe that's not exactly the way you would interpret it. Yes. And it's interesting to see how verbs are used in terms of justice and kindness and humbly. 00:13:42:04 - 00:13:55:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. So, it's all active: doing, walking, and loving. Yeah. And justice. 00:13:55:03 - 00:14:26:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. It's not just niceness. Yes. That's not vague. That's right. It has concrete action plans for the community. Justice is not about you. Right. It's the whole community that's involved. Yeah. And with God being able to bring up those ideas of what God has done, what God has done—right? Exodus. We brought you out of the land of Egypt. 00:14:26:11 - 00:15:04:08 Rev. Trudy Why wouldn't you, who knows what it's like to be enslaved, want to free other people? Yes. Right. Why does the justice look like you want to go back and, you know, kill Pharaoh and, you know, fell his kingdom? The other instance is the king of Moab was going to curse Israel, but instead God shifted the messenger's heart, who really was enacting that curse, to give blessings to Israel instead. 00:15:04:09 - 00:15:23:21 Rev. Trudy Yes. You know, Israel, what it's like to be blessed by God, yes, and to escape the curse that another king is going to put on you. You know, and who knows what that actually looked like and how it would play out. But you know the blessings. Why would you not want other people to be blessed? 00:15:23:23 - 00:15:54:06 Rev. Trudy And along with that same application from God's justice to other people, yeah, God's justice wasn't something that God has done from a distance. Right. It wasn't something about the spiritual realm. It was what God did in the political turmoil of their lives. Yeah. And it's something that has to be action oriented. Yeah. It's doing this, not believing or understanding justice. 00:15:54:07 - 00:16:21:13 Rev. Trudy That's right. And it's so central. I mean, all of those three elements are so essential to who God is and who we are to be. And there's very little about worship, right, or the ritual act that allows you to talk but not really have to walk the faith. Right. Yeah. And here the messenger is talking about working for equity. 00:16:21:14 - 00:16:57:03 Rev. Trudy Yes. It's explicitly said in these words. And you've been talking about applying the same blessing to others. And you reminded me of those liberation theologians, Gustavo Gutiérrez and others in the Catholic liberation movement in the 60s and 70s. Yeah. I was just going to say that. Okay. You finish? Say it together. 00:16:57:05 - 00:17:21:08 Rev. Trudy Why don't we hear both versions? “God's preferential treatment for the poor.” “The preferential option for the poor.” Okay. Sure. Option. That's liberation theology in a nutshell. Just the idea that, you know, somebody had told a story once about, "I love all my children, but the one I love most is the one who needs me most in a given time." 00:17:21:10 - 00:17:47:22 Rev. Trudy Yes. Right. It's a little bit like that. I love everybody. But, you know, if somebody is crying in the corner, I'm going to go see what's wrong. Not the fastest, smartest, richest, and more affluent and influential and stable, yeah, but the least. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I completely interrupted you. You know, you were held—did you get your thought? 00:17:47:23 - 00:18:10:00 Rev. Hannah Okay. No. I'm good. Okay. I have things in my mind, but you pull out your things at different times. You see that, right? I know we can prepare and still have our own list of things to talk about before we're done. But what I love about this—yes—and I like that, paired with the following order. As your version said, 00:18:10:01 - 00:18:40:19 Rev. Hannah “Love faithfully.” “Embrace love faithfully.” Yes. Embrace faithful love. Yeah. And that's the word that you used in Tapestry last week, hesed. Yeah, exactly. The Hebrew word. It's not niceness again, right? It's like loving embrace, faithful love. Yeah. It's like actual love, the concrete love that has substance with it. 00:18:40:20 - 00:19:12:11 Rev. Hannah And if doing justice shapes the public life, this part shapes your covenantal life with God and with the community. Yeah. So, Micah is a brilliant guy. He really is. 2700 years ago, right? He talked about justice and compassion—to get justice and love together, public life and love of God together. Right. Yes. It's not God and politics, church and religion. 00:19:12:12 - 00:19:43:14 Rev. Trudy It's public life and God's call. Yeah. So, I got down the rabbit hole when I was kind of looking at this passage, just with the offer to sacrifice something, and I began to wonder just what sacrifice looks like in antiquity. Right. Never human sacrifice—not to say that never happened. It started with Abraham and Isaac. 00:19:43:16 - 00:20:20:21 Rev. Trudy It was about to be. It was never—yeah, right, exactly. It was never something that was codified in religion, yeah, in Judaism anyway. So, I read this blog from Rabbi Kravitz, whoever that is. But it was really interesting. From his opinion, he says the sacrifices are really most important when they're offered because of an action that you did that was unintentional. 00:20:20:23 - 00:20:44:00 Rev. Trudy So, it wasn't an outright sin, at least from this guy's perspective. And he quotes Leviticus 4:2. It's when, “oh, it was just an accident,” right? You're unconscious—unintentional. Yeah. Unintentional. And that's what is mostly requiring a sacrifice. 00:20:44:01 - 00:21:14:15 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah. And part of that is because the sacrifice really is intended to direct our animal passions toward divine pursuits. Right. So, the animal kind of is the sacrifice, so that we can think about what is still animalistic within us, or whatever. I mean, to use their kind of ancient language. What can we now offer to God so that we can do something different in the coming days? 00:21:14:16 - 00:21:18:22 Rev. Trudy Right. And. 00:21:19:00 - 00:21:45:08 Rev. Trudy So, with intentional sin, if you want to call it that, intentional sin also required a sacrifice, but you had to repent before you do it. So, you had to really think about what your sin was and why you did it, and what you need to not do again, and how you can maybe not do that again. An unintentional sin— 00:21:45:10 - 00:21:53:16 Rev. Trudy We don't always go through that process when it's an unintentional sin. We'll say it's an accident. Yeah. 00:21:53:17 - 00:21:55:08 Rev. Hannah Or I didn't mean it. 00:21:55:09 - 00:22:20:04 Rev. Trudy Right, right, right. Or, you know, don't call me a racist; I didn't have any slaves. Don't call me a colonialist, because, you know, it wasn't me who did that to all these folks. I'm not responsible, right? But it, you know, it's like it was beyond my control. That's what unintentional sin can be. 00:22:20:05 - 00:22:43:11 Rev. Trudy Can be, right? Especially if it's an accident or that kind of thing. And it still requires us to look at it, though, if at least in this understanding of a sacrifice being something that we turn over to God, that we look at deeply and find ways not to have that harm that came from the sin move forward into other people's lives. 00:22:43:13 - 00:23:10:00 Rev. Trudy Does that make sense? Yep. I thought that was pretty cool. Yes. Thank you, Rabbi Kravitz. Yeah. Anyway. Yes. But back to Micah's point, right? It's not just about putting the lamb on the fire pit. You know, it's not just the act. Yes. It's got to be built on something that's going to change your behavior about your life. 00:23:10:00 - 00:23:10:23 Rev. Trudy About your life. 00:23:11:00 - 00:23:12:11 Rev. Hannah What you do with your body. 00:23:12:12 - 00:23:13:05 Rev. Trudy Yes. And it. 00:23:13:05 - 00:23:14:00 Rev. Hannah Will feel. 00:23:14:01 - 00:23:15:18 Rev. Trudy Exactly. Yeah, yeah. 00:23:15:19 - 00:23:17:01 Rev. Hannah Physical verbs. 00:23:17:04 - 00:23:24:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And it will change your relationship with God and with others and with the world. And I— 00:23:25:00 - 00:24:02:07 Rev. Hannah Am not happy with the translation and wording of "walk humbly with God." Yeah. Okay. Because humbly can mean very weakly and gently, meekly, things like that. Yeah. And, well, the Hebrew word for "to walk" is halak. Okay. And the Hebrew word for ethics is halakhah, which comes from walking. Okay. Yeah. So, it's not just about being gentle. 00:24:02:09 - 00:24:39:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But being responsible, accountable about your action and what you do with your walk, right? And also, it has—what's the wording? Circumspect, heavily. Okay. Not directly, but yeah, around, gently. Yeah. Cautiously approach the issue, yeah, to see different sides of it. I like that action. So, to walk humbly with God is to see 360 degrees of your acts and take cautious steps toward that. 00:24:39:22 - 00:25:04:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. When you were saying that, you know, ethics is very similar to the word to walk, that felt so much more embodied. Yes. That the rightness of what we do and who we are and how we behave felt so much more embodied with knowing that connection. Yes. 00:25:04:13 - 00:25:35:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yes. It's ethics and theology are different sides of the same coin. Yeah. Understanding your God rightly gives you how you want to walk in this world. Yeah. I like Micah. Yes. Right. And I feel so sorry for Micah, for putting those verses on the arm or on T-shirts without fully understanding the depth of it. 00:25:35:18 - 00:25:58:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Although I do have to say, Micah is kind of—he's not perfect. But that was a gem. That was a gem. And, you know, in the courtroom thing that just enamored me this week, that scenario, it's not a verdict that comes out, but it's just a reminder of, no, God is not that kind of a God. 00:25:58:07 - 00:26:25:14 Rev. Trudy God is going to teach you so that you'll know better next time. And yes, God is going to walk with you. Yeah. Yes. Hold your head—yeah, that's not even, that's just completely assumed in what he says. Yes. Never a doubt. Good stuff. Thank you. Thank you. And you actually helped me see different sides. 00:26:25:14 - 00:26:49:13 Rev. Trudy And it's interesting how we read the same scripture and read similar commentaries and come up with totally different ways. I love it. Thank you. That's why we do this. Yes. That's why we share our perspectives. Yes. And that's a good model for our friends who are listening to our podcast to do with whoever is around you or with yourself. 00:26:49:19 - 00:27:04:20 Rev. Trudy And we would like to offer three questions for you to ponder. How would you answer if God asked, "How have I wearied you?" 00:27:04:22 - 00:27:35:23 Rev. Trudy How have you incorrectly used Micah 6:8? And: What is your list of do's and don'ts? Now that you've heard more of Micah, we look forward to hearing some of your responses to these questions in one way or another. But more importantly, enjoy your conversations and your reflections on Micah 6. Thank you for listening, and see you next week. Bye. 00:27:36:00 - 00:27:50:03 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org