00:00:00:16 - 00:00:30:05 Rev. Trudy How do you fight for what you believe in while still being kind? That's what we're talking about. Join us. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome to this episode of Perspectives. This is the second in our three week series entitled: The Do's and Don'ts of Times Like These. 00:00:30:06 - 00:00:46:01 Rev. Trudy It's an exploration of the book of Micah, one of the Minor Prophets, and today we are exploring Micah's word to us to tell us to love kindness. I'm here with Reverend Doctor Brittany Juliette Hanlin. 00:00:46:02 - 00:00:48:10 Rev. Brittany She's a Doctor now, by the way. 00:00:48:11 - 00:00:57:06 Rev. Trudy Congratulations on your defense of the thesis. That was beautiful to see. And thanks for joining me in the conversation. 00:00:57:07 - 00:00:58:06 Rev. Brittany It's gonna be a great one. 00:00:58:06 - 00:01:22:21 Rev. Trudy It will be good. Micah is a small book, and today we're looking at Micah chapter four, verses one through four. Some of these words in this portion of our Scripture might sound familiar. Other prophets actually have quoted from Micah, and that might sound familiar to you as well. Doesn’t it make it any more easy to understand, but we're going to give it a shot. 00:01:22:22 - 00:01:24:18 Rev. Brittany I think we can. Here we go. 00:01:24:23 - 00:01:52:16 Rev. Trudy This is Micah, chapter four, verses one through four: “But in the days to come, the mountain of the Lord's house will be the highest of the mountains. It will be lifted above the hills. People will stream to it. Many nations will go and say, ‘Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob's God, so that he may teach us his ways, and we may walk in God's paths.’ 00:01:52:17 - 00:02:21:13 Rev. Trudy Instruction will come from Zion and the Lord's word from Jerusalem. God will judge between the nations and settle disputes of mighty nations which are far away. They will beat their swords into iron plows and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation. They will no longer learn how to make war. All will sit under their own grapevines, under their own fig trees. 00:02:21:13 - 00:02:31:05 Rev. Trudy There will be no one to terrify them. For the mouth of the Lord of heavenly forces has spoken.” 00:02:31:07 - 00:02:32:22 Rev. Brittany There it is. 00:02:33:00 - 00:02:36:03 Rev. Trudy What have you to say about this, Reverend Doctor Brittany? 00:02:36:03 - 00:03:07:00 Rev. Brittany I love a good prophet. I love a good prophet. What makes him good? Well, I appreciate his willingness to speak to the time. And he's observing a time of war where people are, you know, dealing with the ramifications of violence, where they're dealing with the ramifications of being exiled or the potential of being exiled, rather, because we don't know if it's exilic or post-exilic at this point, or pre, or pre-exilic. 00:03:07:01 - 00:03:35:14 Rev. Brittany So the fact that he has the courage to dream and to think beyond what he sees, while also holding to task in that dream what's currently happening. And for me, I think that prophets get a bad rep in some instances, at least for my experience of them, of reading them, because it can sound like they're just like telling everybody what they're doing wrong, and in some instances they are. 00:03:35:14 - 00:03:52:09 Rev. Brittany But I think that their love for the people and their love for God is what calls them to speak and to see the things that need to be adjusted or need to be called into attention. You know, so that's just my ... 00:03:52:10 - 00:04:19:13 Rev. Trudy That's a great answer. And you're absolutely right. When you're surrounded by the chaos of war, it's hard to dream of anything that you can actually believe in. Right, right. And he has some pretty high expectations here, some pretty big dreams. And we've quoted them since then. Right. And there's dreams that I think we all would want to see come true as well. 00:04:19:15 - 00:04:50:22 Rev. Trudy I was I was struck by how little we know about Micah and how little we as clergy have been asked to deal with the fullness of Micah's book and the context out of which he speaks. And truthfully, the only one of the only commentaries I found really was something from the 1750s. That was a long time ago. 00:04:51:00 - 00:04:51:09 Rev. Brittany A very long. 00:04:51:09 - 00:05:22:21 Rev. Trudy A very long time ago. And I thought it was interesting because this chapter, this book, was looked at through the lens of Jesus. Right. And, you know, that's ordinary. That's commonplace for Christianity through its time to see the Old Testament as the proclamation of the coming Christ. And so, everything we know about Jesus, we kind of put into the Old Testament readings and say, “oh, that's what that means.” 00:05:22:21 - 00:05:58:22 Rev. Trudy And it has to do with Jesus. And so, this is saying that this is what the Church of Christ will be like when all of this finally happens. And actually, his commentary, this person from 1750, it's actually Doctor John Gill, he talks about the end time. So, it's a little bit of that apocalyptic ending. But the glory is going to be the happiness of the Church of Jesus and the glory of the Church of Jesus that finds its stability and exaltation and its increase because of the spread of the Gospel of Jesus. 00:05:58:22 - 00:06:03:20 Rev. Trudy So, there's that connection, which I find to be interesting and problematic. 00:06:04:00 - 00:06:05:00 Rev. Brittany Really. 00:06:05:01 - 00:06:06:04 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:06:06:06 - 00:06:25:07 Rev. Brittany Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I understand, right. Like there is a continuity between both the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures of the New Testament. However, I do think that it is .... 00:06:25:09 - 00:06:27:03 Rev. Brittany Christo-centric. 00:06:27:04 - 00:06:27:23 Rev. Trudy Yes. 00:06:28:00 - 00:07:06:00 Rev. Brittany To use the prophets as the justification, right, or as the ... to use them out of context to say that they represent Jesus. While we can use some of their words and understand, you know, how they can work together, right? Yeah. It is that kind of theology can be used in harmful ways, but it can also, if we acknowledge that it has often been used in a in a harmful way, we can flip it on its head and use it in ways that are more meaningful. 00:07:06:00 - 00:07:10:00 Rev. Brittany Like you were saying, continue. Yeah, no. 00:07:10:02 - 00:07:42:22 Rev. Trudy But yes, it's very disrespectful of Judaism really to anachronistically put some meaning on something that didn't have any kind of context in that day and age. Right. And so, it got me to think about what was the context for Micah's time. And there were some interesting theological conversations or waves that were coming to the people of Israel and of Judah. 00:07:43:00 - 00:08:21:15 Rev. Trudy There was the movement away from Yahwism, which is a word that I really have never heard before, but that's a distinct from Judaism, in that Judaism is Torah based, and Yahwism didn't have the Torah quite yet. And it's much more of a pantheistic understanding instead of monotheistic. Right? So, Yahwism, the transition from the ancient Hebrews that worshiped Yahweh as one of many to a more strict monotheism of only one God, that was happening in this era. 00:08:21:17 - 00:08:58:02 Rev. Trudy And the other thing that was happening was they were getting word and understanding of Zoroastrianism, right, from Persia. And that was very significant for the development of people's context of religious thought as the days moved on. Right. Zoroastrianism, with its one God that is pure good and one God that's pure bad. And it's a cosmic battle between the two of them that brings out the eschatology of the scriptures and the idea that there is a cosmic battle. 00:08:58:02 - 00:09:08:13 Rev. Trudy And you had to pick a side, one or the other, right? So, I, when I look at that context, I can hear it in Micah's voice. Oh, yeah. Right. 00:09:08:14 - 00:09:26:03 Rev. Brittany When you see in verse two, right, “many nations will go and say, ‘come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of Jacob's God.’” Right. Right. So that's, you know, that's the distinction with the one God right there. So in the context of what you just said, reading that out loud makes a lot of sense. 00:09:26:04 - 00:09:54:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And just the judging of all the nations. And with regards to that you've got to choose which one you're going to go for. Right. And clearly the bad God is the God of war and conflict and greed, and all of that stuff. And the good God is the God you should choose. But that's where the judgment comes in, right? 00:09:54:14 - 00:10:39:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's an interesting, development and even, in Micah's words, he's got some beautiful imagery here. Right? He's got a beautiful dream. Human conflict will be no more. The dismantling of military weapons. Right. The everybody will have their own vineyard and sit under their own fig tree. I mean, that egalitarian, that beautiful scenario, looks so beautiful. 00:10:39:04 - 00:11:01:11 Rev. Trudy But notice it has to come through Jerusalem. It has to come through Judah. It has to come through there. God's laws and rules. And that's when this will [happen] and their God will judge, right? 00:11:01:13 - 00:11:03:00 Rev. Brittany You love the prophets. 00:11:03:00 - 00:11:46:00 Rev. Trudy Right. Which also for me, I think fits with the times. Right? Right. It fits with the understanding of what was happening as well. But thank God we know better these days. That our context is more understanding of other people's beliefs and belief systems. Right. And we look at, I read Micah and there's a part of me that just kind of cringes even when he says some beautiful things, like, God requires you to be loving and kind, but, you know, he's calling for uniformity. 00:11:46:01 - 00:11:46:13 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:11:46:19 - 00:11:50:07 Rev. Trudy Not unity. Right. 00:11:50:09 - 00:12:26:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean I think there I think that's all throughout the New Testament too. Right. Like I see a lot of. Yeah those this idea that there that our way of thinking and our understanding of God and creation and each other is the is the only right way. Right. And so, that's what makes me interested in verse two, when it says that they'll go up to the house of Jacob so that he may teach us his ways, and we may walk in God's path. 00:12:26:07 - 00:12:51:23 Rev. Brittany And so, that's interesting to me as, what is God's path? I think I know what God's path is, but you might think ... I mean, you have another understanding of God's path. And this person, Reverend Hannah, would have, you know, like, I think they would all hopefully converge in some at some point. But when we are talking about, for instance, this idea of 00:12:52:00 - 00:13:06:09 Rev. Brittany mainline Protestantism versus more evangelical understandings of theology, I think we would have diverging ideas of what God’s path looks like. 00:13:06:11 - 00:13:09:23 Rev. Brittany And so, how do we discern and decipher what that means? 00:13:10:00 - 00:13:10:13 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:13:10:14 - 00:13:12:04 Rev. Brittany That's right. That's what I'm wrestling. 00:13:12:05 - 00:13:20:09 Rev. Trudy And what's also interesting is, we know that the divergence of what we think about the paths of God have caused wars. 00:13:20:10 - 00:13:24:22 Rev. Brittany Absolutely. Usually that I mean, or money. 00:13:24:23 - 00:13:25:11 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:13:25:12 - 00:13:27:12 Rev. Brittany That's usually what causes the war. 00:13:27:13 - 00:13:51:04 Rev. Trudy That's right. Right. That's right. And yet, Micah here has this vision of peace. Yeah. Yeah. Is it possible? His vision of peace? With all that we know now, if we could break away from the shackles of the Scripture that seems to tell us we have the right way to think, and we have, 00:13:51:05 - 00:14:24:14 Rev. Trudy we know the right path. Is there a way to take out all of that? What's the word? All of that separation. All of that who's right and who's wrong in the scriptures and pull out the things like, walk humbly, love kindness, do justice. And s that enough to then cause for these things to happen that Micah dreams of? 00:14:24:16 - 00:14:37:01 Rev. Brittany I mean, I think Micah says it very plainly. Plainly. “This is what the Lord requires.” Right. And so, I mean. 00:14:37:03 - 00:14:44:01 Rev. Brittany Do I think it's possible? No. Do I? 00:14:44:03 - 00:14:44:21 Rev. Trudy You realist, you. 00:14:45:02 - 00:14:48:21 Rev. Brittany But that's ... do I “think” it's possible? No. 00:14:48:22 - 00:14:49:15 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:14:49:16 - 00:15:06:21 Rev. Brittany Do I have faith in the possibility? Yes. So, my thinking tells me, “Absolutely not.” The patterns around here. These people are terrible. We're going to keep killing each other. Nobody cares about money, blah blah blah. Right. But there's something in my faith that has to hope that it can be different. 00:15:07:01 - 00:15:21:12 Rev. Trudy I can understand that. Yeah, absolutely. I can understand that distinction. Yeah. Because from now, sitting at where we're at, looking at where we want to be, it seems like there's no way on earth we're going to get there. 00:15:21:13 - 00:15:38:15 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Scripture tells me. Yes. Hello, [Wesleyan] quadrilateral! My experience tells me [buzzer sound]. My reason says “Ehhhhhhh.” Right. And tradition, 00:15:38:17 - 00:16:11:08 Rev. Brittany she going back and forth. You know what I mean. Like, okay, but not really though. I mean. Yeah. Scripture, scripture helps me to have an insight that is beyond what I see. Right? Yes. Right. Yes. Because my reason, my experience, and tradition would all say no. Yeah. But scripture’s, kind of what I think gives me the hope that it's possible, even though it wasn't realized in the scriptures either. 00:16:11:09 - 00:16:15:14 Rev. Trudy That's really interesting because the scriptures also tell us we're right and everybody else is wrong. 00:16:15:20 - 00:16:22:01 Rev. Brittany I know, right? But I went to school for theology. 00:16:22:02 - 00:16:22:23 Rev. Trudy Well, so. 00:16:22:23 - 00:16:23:16 Rev. Trudy A couple of things. 00:16:23:16 - 00:16:49:09 Rev. Trudy Right. I've always struggled with, you know, “let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me” that I've always “what's my peace going to do for, you know, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and everywhere else?” We've had wars, right? So, it's very hard for me to see that connection between my faith and what's promised in the scriptures and whether or not it's going to come to be. 00:16:49:11 - 00:17:09:12 Rev. Trudy And at the same time, I read this passage of Micah and I look at the places where it's like, oh, that's where Micah can say, he's got it, all right. He's got it all right. Right. And, man, anybody else reading that might say, well, I think like Micah, I've got it all right, too. And those are fighting words, right. 00:17:09:13 - 00:17:26:09 Rev. Trudy But then they also have these words like the pruning hooks and the vineyards and do justice and love kindness and these nuggets that I think are worth keeping. 00:17:26:11 - 00:17:26:20 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:17:26:21 - 00:17:57:03 Rev. Trudy And. Right. And so, it makes me really believe that God has been with us since Micah's time and long before, trying to kind of move us towards a place of those dreams and to give us the path. We're not very good at finding it. I like to think that because God's ways are so different from us, we're so limited in our imagination. 00:17:57:03 - 00:18:26:12 Rev. Trudy I can't figure out how to get there. Right. You, Scripture, your experience, you know. Hey, the experience of it. Right. We can't get there. But there has been progress. It used to be that we couldn't even look at the books of the Old Testament without seeing Jesus in them. We've gotten better at that. Right. It used to be that we looked at other faith traditions and say, “oh, those heathens, let's convert them!” 00:18:26:17 - 00:18:30:21 Rev. Trudy Right. And that's not where we are now. 00:18:30:22 - 00:18:33:05 Rev. Brittany So, it was the “we” humankind in general. 00:18:33:07 - 00:18:59:09 Rev. Trudy Okay. Granted, where we've come, a long way. Come a long way. And I think at every move or change towards a future of difference, there's going to be those people who dig their heels in and say, “no, we're going back to the past, because that's where it was good.” Right. Yeah. So, but I think overall, I mean, it's the arc of the universe bends towards justice. 00:18:59:09 - 00:19:07:01 Rev. Brittany Maybe with that. I mean, I think. 00:19:07:03 - 00:19:38:00 Rev. Brittany I guess, for me, it's like in these instances, what we're talking about of like who's right and who's wrong, I feel like all of the scriptures are complicated because they were written by people, period. But I think that the scriptures that highlight what we're talking about, like “all will sit underneath their own grapevines.” That, for me, means … it doesn't say that the house of Jacob will only. 00:19:38:00 - 00:20:07:22 Rev. Brittany Right? Right. It's a little dicey at the top. Right. But then, you get down to the bottom, and it says all will. And so, then I have to think about that is who I know God to be. That even though the world is in disarray and that there are some people who have more power than others, that in God's world, God's vision for us, would be that all people had more than enough, that everyone had their own place to live, that all people had enough food to eat. 00:20:08:01 - 00:20:25:22 Rev. Brittany So those text from the prophets, you know, tough at the top. But at the bottom of it, I feel like, give me a little bit more insight to who, at least the God I hope that I know, is the heart of God that I know. 00:20:25:23 - 00:20:29:08 Rev. Trudy And for me, it's the God who makes sense for the world we know. 00:20:29:09 - 00:20:29:21 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:20:29:22 - 00:20:32:11 Rev. Trudy For the world we know now and today. 00:20:32:12 - 00:20:33:00 Rev. Brittany Absolutely. 00:20:33:02 - 00:20:39:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 00:20:39:13 - 00:20:51:06 Rev. Trudy Here's a question for those who don't have their own vineyard. For those who don't have their own fig tree, isn't it worth fighting for? 00:20:51:08 - 00:21:14:14 Rev. Brittany Yes. I was going to say …. hold, please hold that question, because this is in my brain. Okay. Piggyback off that. I think that there's also a sense of the folks who are writing these texts are mostly coming from the margins. Right. And so, their anger is … right. You can feel it in what they're saying. Oh, yeah. 00:21:14:15 - 00:21:43:17 Rev. Brittany Because it's been generations and generations and generations of them being oppressed. Right. And so, I think, at least in my experience of history, not just Biblical history, but in the reading about history, that those folks who are on the margins are always hoping that everyone will get a piece. But even in their rage, sometimes they have an understanding that this … 00:21:43:17 - 00:21:56:02 Rev. Brittany I am so convicted by this because I have seen the harm that this other way has done. So, I must be, you know what I mean? Is that, yes. My way, the way that I see, it must be right. 00:21:56:03 - 00:22:01:08 Rev. Trudy Because I wouldn't want anybody to go through what I've been going through. So, it belongs to everybody. 00:22:01:09 - 00:22:01:22 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:22:01:23 - 00:22:03:15 Rev. Trudy That in itself is huge. 00:22:03:16 - 00:22:33:01 Rev. Brittany Yes. And that, though, I think, I don't think excuses some of the “I'm right, you’re wrong” language, but I think that it adds context to why it is present in those texts. Right. Got it. Got it. Got it. I don't know if I'm making sense right now. Yeah. But just thinking about those who are writing, or writing from a very particular experience, and they're writing from the margins. 00:22:33:02 - 00:23:17:07 Rev. Brittany Right. And like I said, they're writing from their people. Right. Being, you know, right, abused and mistreated and enslaved for centuries and centuries and centuries. So, yes, they are hoping for a better tomorrow, and still, they are angry or sad or enraged about the injustice that they faced today, and they want vengeance for that. Right. And so, thinking about enslaved people, I'm sure that when they were, you know, when they came across the Atlantic in 1619, that the prayers that they had of freedom felt much like what Micah is talking about right now, that there will be a vineyard, right? 00:23:17:08 - 00:23:47:22 Rev. Brittany But there was still a faith that moved them forward, that while I have not realized the full dream, I am much farther than they were. You know what I mean? And so, I think it's the same with Micah's words. And we might not be there completely where everyone has this vineyard. But I think it is those who have experienced such marginalization and oppression that are the ones that give us the hope or who hold on. 00:23:47:22 - 00:23:51:17 Rev. Brittany I won't even say give it. But hold on to the hope that it can be different. 00:23:51:19 - 00:23:52:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:52:19 - 00:23:54:16 Rev. Brittany I don't know if I was making sense. 00:23:54:18 - 00:24:14:18 Rev. Trudy I know, I think, I followed you. I think I followed you. I think that's definitely a powerful understanding of the way in which we can move through the reality, into something different through our faith. 00:24:14:20 - 00:24:20:05 Rev. Brittany Through our faith that includes all people. That's right. You know. 00:24:20:06 - 00:24:46:03 Rev. Trudy Right. And that, honestly, is really remarkable. Because we have seen over history that the oppressed become the oppressors. Right. And so, to start from a place where “I know what it's like to be” — and this is repeated in Scripture throughout the Old Testament — “you were slaves once in the land of Egypt, you take care of the foreigner and the stranger in your land because of that.” 00:24:46:04 - 00:24:47:07 Rev. Trudy Yeah, absolutely. 00:24:47:08 - 00:24:55:15 Rev. Brittany And Jesus then said it, too. “For those who love our Lord and Savior so mightily.” That's right. But continue. Thanks for coming. That's right. 00:24:55:17 - 00:25:17:21 Rev. Trudy So, Micah comes around and says, you have to love kindness. And so, in the midst of this world when his people were in a time of war and subjugated and having some horrible situations. 00:25:17:23 - 00:25:46:11 Rev. Trudy Micah says love kindness. And I can only think that it's part of who God was. Right. And in fact, in Hebrew, the word for loving kindness refers to God. To God only, “Chesed?” I don't know if I've said that right, but it refers to God's steadfastness, God's unconditional love, the relationship that God has to the people. 00:25:46:13 - 00:26:22:15 Rev. Trudy And it's beyond emotion. It is part of the character, right, of God. And it is part of … and it shows itself in action. Right. Yeah. And I think that's probably what Micah is wanting us who read this now to understand that that is who God is. Unconditional love for all God has created. And that is something that we see in actions. 00:26:22:15 - 00:26:45:13 Rev. Trudy And I also think then, that is also what we are called then to be. When Micah says, “this is what God requires of you.” Right. So even though you are in this, even though Micah and his people were in this awful situation, they were called upon to be, to not let that change them. Right. And even us 00:26:45:13 - 00:27:12:17 Rev. Trudy now, as we look at this, with all the injustice, with all the guns that are not beaten into plowshares, we can be angry about it, and so frustrated, and defeated, and just mean, because it's not a fun place to be and to hear all these headlines. And yet, we're asked to show loving kindness because that's who God is, and that's who God asks us to be. 00:27:12:19 - 00:27:24:04 Rev. Brittany So, I have a question, Trudy. Oh. Can kindness and anger, dance together? 00:27:24:06 - 00:27:25:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:27:25:10 - 00:27:31:14 Rev. Brittany And if they can. Right. How can they? And if not, what does that look like? 00:27:31:15 - 00:28:01:13 Rev. Trudy So, I actually, I did look up some, you know, “how can you approach conflict with kindness?” And so, this was what the conflict expert who wrote the article said, okay. The receiver who you're showing kindness to, who you have a conflict with, when you show kindness, they feel more empowered and they feel listened to. They realize that maybe not everyone is out to get them. 00:28:01:14 - 00:28:26:21 Rev. Trudy They see that kindness is an alternative to violence, and the repercussions of kindness can actually ripple out. So. So the idea, we could take that one at a time, but I'm not sure we need to. But the idea is, I think, modeling something that kind of inherently says, “I know that you can do this, too.” 00:28:26:23 - 00:28:40:12 Rev. Trudy Right? “You did this to hurt me. And I know that's not who you are.” So. 00:28:40:14 - 00:28:45:03 Rev. Trudy I just, you know. 00:28:45:05 - 00:28:57:14 Rev. Trudy It's a tough thing, honestly. It really is. It is. Because I don't know how you get around to repentance with kindness. 00:28:57:18 - 00:28:58:22 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:28:59:00 - 00:29:05:06 Rev. Trudy Other than to say, “is this really who you want to be?” 00:29:05:08 - 00:29:05:23 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:29:06:00 - 00:29:06:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:29:06:17 - 00:29:07:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:29:07:06 - 00:29:27:17 Rev. Brittany I think that kindness doesn't lack accountability. You know, and I think that kindness is very different than niceness. And Michelle Obama said, which you know, I agree with to a certain extent. Right. Just keeping it honest. But Michelle said, “When they go low, we go high.” Sometimes I want to get low. Yeah. Sometimes I want to get low. 00:29:27:18 - 00:30:09:09 Rev. Brittany Sometimes I want to get down and dance real low. I don't always, right. But the, like I said, kindness doesn't, isn't, counter to accountability. And I agree with what you're saying. Absolutely. I then struggle sometimes with the idea of knowing how — I'm just speaking from African American experience — how enslaved people or African American people at post-enslavement were kind and generous, or, you know, took care of White folks’ children and were domesticated, and all of these things, and, you know, still weren't received well. Or the Civil Rights movement. 00:30:09:09 - 00:30:17:10 Rev. Brittany And it was nonviolent. And, you know, they're just wanting to sing you know, “We Shall Overcome.” And then they're met with, you know. Right. 00:30:17:11 - 00:30:18:01 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:30:18:03 - 00:30:36:15 Rev. Brittany Water hoses. Yeah. Right. And I go back to this quote from Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth from “Eyes on the Prize” that I heard like 13 years ago. And I will never forget it. He said, we as a country, we as 00:30:36:17 - 00:30:53:00 Rev. Brittany those of us in the Civil Rights movement, were trying to shame America, like to show a mirror to her, to say, “this is what you're doing to your people.” And he said, “but you can't shame a rattlesnake from being a rattlesnake.” 00:30:53:00 - 00:30:54:15 Rev. Trudy Therein lies the problem. 00:30:54:17 - 00:30:55:18 Rev. Brittany Tell me. 00:30:55:20 - 00:31:06:19 Rev. Trudy I think the reason it works, kindness works, or for me, this this is helpful for me to really believe that all people are created good. 00:31:07:00 - 00:31:09:04 Rev. Brittany Okay. Yes, I agree. 00:31:09:05 - 00:31:40:16 Rev. Trudy All people are created good. All people are beloved of God. I, if God is anything like me, you might love him, but you don't like him very much. But. Right. And with that, there is the possibility of redemption. Okay. I think what you've described is the reason why it can't just, we can't just look for those tidbits in the Scripture that say something that's an eternal truth, like loving kindness. 00:31:40:19 - 00:32:16:03 Rev. Trudy We have to understand, also, the context out of which that command comes. And for Micah, that was one thing. For that doctor in 1750 is another. For us, it's a completely other one. And I think what we have to do is continue to change the context, which is why we're having conversations about what other Christians believe in this day and age and why we believe something different, because we're trying to continue that awareness of the things that still need to change in our world. 00:32:16:04 - 00:32:43:17 Rev. Trudy Right. What was missing for the enslaved people in the Deep South, was the understanding that it was wrong. Right. There was still a theology very much at play that said, “no, no, no, you belong in your place.” Right. “And that's it. Sorry, honey. That's the way it is.” So that context needs to also change. So, I think that's part of what we have to be working towards. 00:32:43:19 - 00:32:46:07 Rev. Trudy That might come in next week when we talk about doing justice. 00:32:46:08 - 00:32:46:23 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:32:47:00 - 00:33:17:16 Rev. Trudy But I think, also to that point, that that illustration, you know, the water hoses that were turned on the kids in the Civil Rights movement, broadcast for the first time to a lot of people who saw it, unmasked the racism. Right. And it changed the course of everything. And the people who were, I remember the image that changed me, when I finally heard about it in seminary. 00:33:17:17 - 00:33:54:00 Rev. Trudy Right. Was Doctor Martin Luther King Jr. and all the marchers up against Bull Connor and the shouting match. And Bull Connor looked like a complete asshole. Can I say that? Jerk? You look like a complete jerk. And Doctor Martin Luther King and all of the walkers were just so, so calm. And it was their character. The character didn't match what they were getting, and that's what saved them, or at least shifted the tide. 00:33:54:01 - 00:34:15:17 Rev. Trudy I yeah. Right. Yeah, I think so because, I mean, imagine back in the day. Right. “They were wild. They were violent. They were not to be trusted.” Right. The Black people, that was the image. And if we saw that on the, then, of course. But Connor was justified because that's what racism does. Right. 00:34:15:18 - 00:34:18:02 Rev. Brittany I agree. I mean. 00:34:18:05 - 00:34:18:16 Rev. Trudy You're getting me wound up. 00:34:18:16 - 00:34:27:06 Rev. Brittany I'm sorry. I know you're getting hot, girl. I see it in your face every time I talk about racism against the folks, going against the people, moving against the people. 00:34:27:07 - 00:34:57:09 Rev. Trudy No, no, no, we have a long way to go. Oh, yeah. There's no doubt we have a long way to go. And we aren't moving fast enough. And there's always something that gets in the way from all that Micah is dreaming of. But to wrestle with these texts, right, in the way that we're doing, and to be able to kind of understand how we got from there to here so that we can move from here to there, you know, further on down the road. 00:34:57:09 - 00:35:01:00 Rev. Trudy I think that's a worthwhile endeavor. I get a little excited about that. 00:35:01:00 - 00:35:24:17 Rev. Brittany I mean, it's exciting. Okay. It is exciting. I agree, I think we have a long way to go. I think that, kindness looks like justice to me. Kindness also looks like mercy. Kindness also looks like accountability. Kindness is all of those. All of that wrapped into one. And it's not just a pleasantry, but kindness is an action. 00:35:24:19 - 00:35:40:21 Rev. Brittany And kindness is a part of your character. Right. And who are you when no one's around. That's right. Not just when people are looking, but who are you when no one's around? And also, 00:35:40:23 - 00:35:52:11 Rev. Brittany I find that we're not often kind to ourselves, which makes it difficult to find the kindness in our hearts to muster up for others. 00:35:52:12 - 00:35:54:19 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:35:54:20 - 00:35:56:01 Rev. Brittany My little tidbit. 00:35:56:02 - 00:35:57:14 Rev. Trudy We could probably keep going. 00:35:57:15 - 00:36:06:09 Rev. Brittany I know I'm kind of fired up now. Better than Paul. I feel a little bit better than with Paul. I get a little fired up about Micah. 00:36:06:10 - 00:36:11:06 Rev. Trudy I do appreciate the perspective you bring. It always adds some really amazing things. 00:36:11:06 - 00:36:40:22 Rev. Brittany You give me a lot of grace to hold on to and think about and process. Because me and Grace, you know, we do a little dance. We dance. You know, I, I think I'm more gracious in my actions than I am in my thought process, if that makes sense. I think my thoughts are very critical, but my actions are maybe a little bit more gracious, if that means anything. 00:36:40:22 - 00:36:49:08 Rev. Trudy I always find I have to go through all my thoughts before I can actually get to the place where, okay, I can, I don't have to say those out loud. I can now be gracious. 00:36:49:09 - 00:37:03:08 Rev. Brittany And I just say mine out loud. And then I go, “oh, hi, very nice to see you today.” This was an excellent, exhilarating conversation. I had a blast. It was. You enjoy it. Good. 00:37:03:08 - 00:37:05:14 Rev. Trudy It was so good. I love talking to you. 00:37:05:15 - 00:37:30:15 Rev. Brittany I love talking to you. And I love talking about the prophets, the minors and the majors. And we have three questions for you to consider. Our first question is: What would it look like for weapons of violence, whether it's guns, spears, or marginalizing policies, to be transformed for the betterment of all people? Our second question is: How do your beliefs show up as kindness? 00:37:30:15 - 00:37:45:00 Rev. Brittany And our third question is: How do you fight while being kind? Now, Reverend Trudy, I asked the question, “fight” – are we talking about fist fight or are we talking about conflict or are we talking about war? 00:37:45:02 - 00:37:46:20 Rev. Brittany And is it up for the people to decide? 00:37:46:21 - 00:37:47:13 Rev. Trudy I think so. 00:37:47:14 - 00:38:03:16 Rev. Brittany Except for the people to decide. You decide what we mean by fight and what you mean by fight. And we would love nothing more than to hear from you. So let us know your thoughts and your perspectives. Until next time folks. 00:38:03:18 - 00:38:06:07 Rev. Brittany Bye everyone! 00:38:06:09 - 00:38:19:22 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources visit fumcsd.org