00:00:00:15 - 00:00:24:11 Rev. Trudy What do we do these days when we have so much conflicting advice and truth is hard to come by? That's what we're talking about today on Perspectives. Thanks for joining us. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:24:13 - 00:00:50:12 Rev. Trudy Welcome back to this episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Dr. Hannah Ka. We are glad you have joined us. We are starting a new three week sermon series. We are calling this “The Do’s and Don'ts of Times Like These.” And it is a deep dive into one of the more favorite passages of all of Scripture. 00:00:50:12 - 00:01:19:04 Rev. Trudy And that is Micah 6:8, where the prophet Micah invites us to know what God has called us to do, and that is to walk humbly, to love kindness, and to do justice. And so, we are looking at different parts of this book that Micah has written, and we will wind up hearing from all different kinds of verses how all these things play together and the context in which they were formed. 00:01:19:04 - 00:01:46:07 Rev. Trudy So today we are talking about Micah chapter 3, verses four through ten. I have to say, you know, everybody knows that I plan ahead. We plan ahead for sermon series. And this idea to do this verse came over a year ago. Right? And it wasn't until recently that I had taken the time to figure out, well, we're really only talking about one verse. 00:01:46:07 - 00:02:17:19 Rev. Trudy Maybe we should talk about more than one verse. And I began to just kind of pick through Micah and found some verses. And then I hadn't really read closely about that until getting ready for this podcast. And as I read through this, I thought, “I had no idea how relevant this feels.” And so, as I read the scripture, maybe you will hear some of the relevancy for our day. 00:02:17:21 - 00:02:45:00 Rev. Trudy So this is what Micah chapter three, verses four through 12 says: “Then they will cry out to the Lord, but he won't answer them. He will hide his face from them at that time because of their evil deeds. The Lord proclaims concerning the prophets, those who lead my people astray, those who chew with their teeth and then proclaim, ”Peace!” but stir up war against one who puts nothing in their mouths: 00:02:45:02 - 00:03:18:12 Rev. Trudy Therefore, it will become night for you, without vision, only darkness without divination! The sun will set on the prophets; and the day will be dark upon them. Those seeing visions will be ashamed, and the diviners disgraced; they will all cover their upper lips, for there will be no answer from God. But me! I am filled with power, with the spirit of the Lord, with justice and might, to declare to Jacob his wrongdoing and to Israel his sin! 00:03:18:14 - 00:03:46:01 Rev. Trudy Here this, leaders of the house of Jacob, rulers of the house of Israel, you who reject justice and make crooked all that is straight, who build Zion with bloodshed and Jerusalem with injustice! Her officials give justice for a bribe, and her priests teach, teach for hire. Her prophets offer divination for silver, yet they rely on God, saying, “Isn't the Lord in our midst? 00:03:46:01 - 00:04:08:06 Rev. Trudy Evil won't come upon us!” Therefore, because of you, Zion will be plowed like a field, Jerusalem will become piles of rubble, and the temple mount will become an overgrown mound.” 00:04:08:08 - 00:04:13:21 Rev. Trudy Man. Wow. Right. I mean, the prophets are always pretty poignant. 00:04:13:22 - 00:04:19:12 Rev. Trudy Pretty sharp. Right? Yes. And Micah is known with his poetic style, like. 00:04:19:12 - 00:04:23:00 Rev. Hannah Walk humbly, do kindness and love justice. 00:04:23:02 - 00:04:30:22 Rev. Trudy He had. Did we say it? He has clarity. And he is to the point. Yes. He just tells it like it is. Yes, yes. 00:04:30:23 - 00:04:35:06 Rev. Hannah And we hear all those - wooo! - accusations. 00:04:35:09 - 00:04:36:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. 00:04:36:05 - 00:04:37:11 Rev. Hannah Very detailed. 00:04:37:12 - 00:04:56:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And you know that's not unusual. That's what the prophets do. And we know that the prophets are less about imagining or figuring out what's going to happen centuries down the line, and all about what is happening in their context. And if we stay on this road, this is where we're going to end up. Yes. 00:04:56:05 - 00:05:21:14 Rev. Hannah Right. Yes. And one of the things that I like about this season of ministry is that I get to read the scripture from a different perspective. Yeah. And I've been reading the scripture my entire life, but I see something different this time, reading the same book of Micah in gentle tones. And this is not gentle and this is not personal holiness. 00:05:21:16 - 00:05:32:21 Rev. Hannah Yeah, it's social holiness. Yes, it is. And it's confronting systems and leadership and a nationwide spiritual malfunction. 00:05:33:00 - 00:05:37:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. So much so that God is not talking to them. 00:05:37:01 - 00:05:38:19 Rev. Hannah Not listening. Right. 00:05:38:20 - 00:06:03:21 Rev. Trudy Exactly. So I want to bring it back a little bit about the context about this is what I looked at in my study. It looks like it was probably written around 720 before the common era. So it would have been contemporary with other prophets like Isaiah, Amos, and Hosea. And Amos and Hosea, they're minor prophets, too. And they're pretty ... 00:06:03:22 - 00:06:36:19 Rev. Trudy They're grumpy. Things are not going well, in fact, in this time. And Micah, as a prophet, he would have seen the fall of Judah to the Neo-Assyrian Assyrian Empire, and Judah would have become a vassal, so it would have been being able to use the land. But it wasn't their land. They belonged to the king. And so, the king could impose all sorts of requirements or restrictions or taxes at a whim, just whenever. 00:06:36:21 - 00:06:50:17 Rev. Trudy And this was the time when they saw massive immigration. They saw economic instability, a social crisis, war, and conflicting prophetic messages. Oh, right. 00:06:50:19 - 00:06:52:07 Rev. Hannah Are you talking about now? 00:06:52:09 - 00:06:55:01 Rev. Trudy Well, I tell you. See what I mean? 00:06:55:02 - 00:06:56:20 Rev. Hannah Okay. Yeah. 00:06:56:23 - 00:07:19:08 Rev. Trudy And so it has. And Micah is really addressing who are you going to believe? That has been a problem in our culture for a while. Right. Who do we believe? What's truth? What's lies? What do we what do we do with somebody who says we should go down this way, and somebody else who says we should go down this? 00:07:19:09 - 00:07:21:06 Rev. Trudy That way. 00:07:21:08 - 00:07:32:10 Rev. Hannah When they're in crisis, they're always bound to have conflicting messages, and we tend to gravitate towards something comforting. Yeah. Easier? 00:07:32:11 - 00:07:33:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:33:09 - 00:07:35:12 Rev. Hannah Yeah. You're right. 00:07:35:14 - 00:07:56:06 Rev. Trudy And so, just ... And one more piece of context. You know, the role of the prophet. We kind of heard glimpses of it here, but just to point it out clearly, they were the ones they were advisors to the kings of the ancient Near East. Diviners. I want to say diviners, but that's not how it is diviners anyway. Prophets, we’ll just do that. 00:07:56:09 - 00:07:58:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:58:11 - 00:07:59:21 Rev. Hannah And the religious leaders. 00:07:59:23 - 00:08:28:07 Rev. Trudy Yeah. The religious leaders. But they were tasked with guiding the king, you know. And religion and politics were so intertwined. There was no distinction. And so, the political leader needed to do what the God wanted to have done. And the prophets were the ones that would that would offer the oracle that said what you needed to be doing. 00:08:28:07 - 00:09:05:00 Rev. Trudy So. Right. And so, most common, historically speaking, was the oracle of being. It was, you know, “You are blessed as our King. You are headed down the right path. You're doing everything right. Everything's going to be well.” That's the most common oracle that we see. Historically, there might have been some who stood up to the king and said, “No, no, no, you're doing it wrong.” You know, and most of them are recorded in Jerusalem or in Israel or Judah. 00:09:05:02 - 00:09:18:09 Rev. Trudy In our scriptures, not on other historical stuff, which makes sense. I mean, it is really hard to stand up to power. It is. And to give them bad news to challenge anything. 00:09:18:11 - 00:09:18:20 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:09:18:21 - 00:09:25:20 Rev. Hannah And when you're in power it's hard to hear those difficult messages. That's ... it goes both ways. 00:09:25:21 - 00:09:36:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. It's hard to hear them. And there's this relationship where the prophets really depended on the royal court and the abundance therein for their livelihood. 00:09:37:02 - 00:09:39:20 Rev. Hannah You know, must have been paid by them as well. 00:09:40:00 - 00:09:43:22 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, it sounds a little bit. 00:09:43:22 - 00:09:45:19 Rev. Hannah Like church. 00:09:45:21 - 00:10:03:18 Rev. Trudy You know, I mean, when think about ... I think about this all the time when I preach, I don't know if you do. This might be a tangent. Sorry, but, you know, if I tell the congregation that you really got this. You got to start doing this, you know, because that is really not the right thing. 00:10:03:19 - 00:10:21:11 Rev. Trudy And to try and kind of add any kind of correction or ... no matter how couched it is with encouragement. You know, they are still the ones that need to hear it. And they may get mad and they may take their pledge and go somewhere else where they will hear that everything is just going fine. 00:10:21:12 - 00:10:23:04 Rev. Hannah Yep. 00:10:23:06 - 00:10:25:17 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:10:25:19 - 00:10:37:11 Rev. Hannah Very true. Always think about how my voice would land. Yeah. In the heart of the audience. But we always balance that out. Yeah. 00:10:37:13 - 00:10:56:10 Rev. Trudy And I don't know about you. Well, I do know about you. I do know about you. I think we both, all of us, do a pretty good job of just reminding ourselves that it's not what we do — what the pastors do — as opposed to what the congregation does. But it's all about what God does. 00:10:56:12 - 00:11:04:08 Rev. Trudy And God is going to help us with what we need to be doing, even if it's hard. 00:11:04:09 - 00:11:04:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:11:04:19 - 00:11:12:08 Rev. Trudy And even if it calls for us to do change and we'll love us anyway. So really, what do we have to lose? 00:11:12:10 - 00:11:42:19 Rev. Hannah Right. Yep. That's about clarity of calling as a person. I want to be popular. I don't want to say bad things. But at night, God keeps calling me, saying, “What are you doing? Didn't I call you to do this work? What are you doing pleasing people? What are you doing compromising?” So the clarity of calling 00:11:42:21 - 00:12:05:00 Rev. Hannah sometimes makes me function differently than my personal inclinations. Yeah. Yeah. But I see that in Micah, even in a broader sense, that he speaks simple words, but with a clarity of calling. 00:12:05:01 - 00:12:06:00 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. 00:12:06:01 - 00:12:21:12 Rev. Hannah And he names all those wrongdoings. Not just of one person, but the entire society, religion, political and religious leaders, politicians and all the leaders. Yeah. The priest. Everyone. 00:12:21:13 - 00:12:47:14 Rev. Trudy Everyone had their values wrong. Everyone was engaging in stuff. And as a vassal state. Or it was. It was the complicity. Right. It was. It was the not voting, right, or just saying, “Oh, it'll be fine.” You know, “What does it matter if we just go and do what this king wants us to do?” 00:12:47:15 - 00:13:04:07 Rev. Trudy You know, thinking about all the prophets who ... you know, Daniel, who fought against the king. It is interesting because really, why would Micah do that if it wasn't? I mean, none of it is good news. 00:13:04:11 - 00:13:11:08 Rev. Hannah None of it would make his life easier. That's right. It will give him lots of trouble. 00:13:11:09 - 00:13:11:21 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:13:11:23 - 00:13:19:16 Rev. Hannah Yeah. Saying these things against those who are in power. That's right. That's right. 00:13:19:18 - 00:13:42:16 Rev. Trudy I have to confess, when I first read through this scripture, I had the chuckle because Micah saying, “oh, all of you prophets.” You know, “you've got God angry. It's going to be quiet. You've just done it so wrong. And you just got to stop it. But me, I am filled with power!” 00:13:42:18 - 00:13:45:02 Rev. Trudy So, you know, just listen to me. 00:13:45:03 - 00:13:46:03 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:13:46:05 - 00:14:03:20 Rev. Trudy And I struggle with that because, you know, in the context of having one form of Christianity proclaim one message and another form proclaim a different one. And they're And 00:14:03:20 - 00:14:07:03 Rev. Hannah conflicting, right? They're conflicting. 00:14:07:05 - 00:14:21:11 Rev. Trudy You know, it is confusing. Why ... we're both reading the same scriptures. Why does this outcome occur? And this one? And what can I believe? I can understand the people of the day. 00:14:21:12 - 00:14:32:03 Rev. Hannah Yes. And also these voices, conflicting voices would be offended by each other's voices. Absolutely. And dividing the society even further. That's right. 00:14:32:04 - 00:14:33:00 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:14:33:00 - 00:14:41:14 Rev. Hannah And I heard. I enjoyed hearing your tone. “But me!” 00:14:41:16 - 00:14:51:07 Rev. Hannah And he has a strong confidence in what he has to deliver. And can you imagine yourself? Yeah. Being in Micah's shoes? 00:14:51:08 - 00:14:52:06 Rev. Trudy Oh my gosh. 00:14:52:07 - 00:15:02:08 Rev. Hannah I'm pretty sure that he. His opinion was unpopular all this time. And he's making everyone an enemy. 00:15:02:08 - 00:15:02:13 Rev. Trudy Of. 00:15:02:13 - 00:15:31:20 Rev. Hannah His right. Right. And yet, he's saying, “I need to say this because it's not because of your payment. It's not because of your approval. It's not because of your influence over me, but the spirit, the justice encouraged.” Yeah. All of those words he used in sharp contrast. Yeah. Give me that. He was fully grounded in in his calling. 00:15:31:21 - 00:15:36:21 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And he knew where his voice he's coming from. Yeah. 00:15:36:22 - 00:15:37:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:15:37:14 - 00:15:39:20 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And who this is for? 00:15:39:21 - 00:15:40:08 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:15:40:10 - 00:15:50:14 Rev. Hannah Right. Not for the ones in power. Yeah, but those people who would cry out to those in power but not heard. Yeah. Yeah. 00:15:50:16 - 00:16:15:00 Rev. Trudy I still I do appreciate all that. And I appreciate the way in which you had mentioned something before we started taping about Micah probably being one who has been hurt by the system. Right. And from that position, that's a different message. That's a different way of seeing things. He had nothing to lose. Well, he had everything to lose. 00:16:15:02 - 00:16:47:09 Rev. Trudy Right. And I think that's probably a good thing to remember, that if you're going to stand against the powers that be, it is probably because you have been crushed by it and you know that that's not going to change. So why not? And for me, then, I think it's helpful when I'm looking at all the confusing messages out there as to which way we should go, what we should do, what our values ought to be, or whatever. 00:16:47:09 - 00:16:55:17 Rev. Trudy It has to include the people whose voices aren't heard and who are being hurt by the systems. It's got to include that. 00:16:55:19 - 00:17:19:16 Rev. Hannah And as someone who was hurt by the system, he might have been associating with a lot of other people who are hurt by the system, whose voices are muted and silenced. Right. But they resonate with each other, and he's speaking out of that communal experience. Yeah. “Look at all those splendors of Jerusalem. You're built on the blood. 00:17:19:18 - 00:17:28:20 Rev. Hannah You're built upon the sacrifice of those people. You abused and misused with your power.” 00:17:28:21 - 00:17:30:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:17:30:19 - 00:17:36:14 Rev. Hannah “If you weren't listening to their voices. God is not going to listen to your voice.”” 00:17:36:15 - 00:17:38:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 00:17:38:18 - 00:17:42:07 Rev. Hannah God is going to be silenced. Yeah. 00:17:42:09 - 00:18:13:16 Rev. Trudy We're having the conversation about the landscape of the White church and the American nation. And it's looking at some of the ways in which politics and religion have become intertwined in our current culture, and what kind of Christian theology is underneath some of that entanglement, and how we can understand where it came from and how it might diverge from some of what other people might believe. 00:18:13:21 - 00:18:37:17 Rev. Trudy Like us. I think we're on the other side of that. I'm grateful for that conversation, but I can't ... I keep thinking about Micah and how it relates to this. And I know that, you know ... I have that sense of clarity that, you know, “I'm right.” 00:18:37:19 - 00:18:38:15 Rev. Hannah You're honest. 00:18:38:16 - 00:18:47:13 Rev. Trudy Well, you know, I mean, I think we all do. And that's the part that really gets me, though. I really do believe everybody thinks they're right. 00:18:47:14 - 00:18:48:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:18:48:07 - 00:19:22:12 Rev. Trudy On both sides. Right. And I can see how that is. I can see how you can read the scriptures and see God as a judge, that the end times will come. And there will be some who have believed and followed the commandments of God to a T and understand that. And we who say, “yeah, but some of those commandments were couched,” and, you know, all of that. 00:19:22:13 - 00:19:48:15 Rev. Trudy We have a theology that challenges that. That God is the loving one and that God that those were just rules in for a certain time and place. You can justify that in Scripture. Both of those. Is what my point is, right? And I think it's really hard then to know how to engage 00:19:48:17 - 00:19:57:14 Rev. Trudy with what it is we really believe in and why. 00:19:57:16 - 00:20:06:20 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. Yes. We can't say “The Scripture says this, so that's why you ought to believe.” Because they're going to say, “but the Scripture says this, and that's why we believe.” 00:20:06:22 - 00:20:42:19 Rev. Hannah Yeah. I was pausing for a second because that felt like a conversation between me and my father when he was alive. We came from the same faith community, same belief system, but we could not agree on some of the things. Yeah. And could not get to any conclusion about the current issues. And I would say ... he used to have a lot more words to say, but I have to say, from the book of Micah to the work of Jesus 00:20:42:20 - 00:20:53:03 Rev. Hannah there's something about the religion or using the voice of God for the powerful, right? 00:20:53:04 - 00:20:54:02 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:20:54:03 - 00:21:16:22 Rev. Hannah And God was always advocating for those who were silenced and without power. And the minority voices. Yeah. So at least I told, I asked, my father: “Don't you have to question yourself when you're agreeing with those in power?” 00:21:17:03 - 00:21:18:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:21:18:10 - 00:21:21:23 Rev. Hannah And have to have some critical lens on yourself? 00:21:22:00 - 00:21:31:06 Rev. Trudy Okay. There you go. I came across Dorothee Sölle. 00:21:31:08 - 00:21:38:11 Rev. Hannah S with two dots. Dorothy Zilla or something. Okay. Foreign language. 00:21:38:12 - 00:22:12:16 Rev. Trudy I was not familiar with her work. Yeah, I couldn't tell. A feminist? No wonder I liked it. Anyway. But she made a distinction those kinds of Christianities. And, at least the commentary I read, quoted her as saying, “Power. If power is the central value, then the virtue is in following the rules. And the rules, as we know, can be unjust or hurtful. 00:22:12:16 - 00:22:57:20 Rev. Trudy And there's certainly no challenging any of the rules.” So, if you watch for the way in which people engage with the rules, you can know what the motivation is and who might be making the rules and the power that is over all of that. Right. And that's something you just need to be aware of. Right. If you are, however ... “if you do have love as the central value, then the virtue is the exercise,” she says, “of responsible freedom,” which is the freedom to be able to challenge rules that may not benefit everybody in society in the same way, or the rules that are hurtful or antiquated or whatever you can challenge. 00:22:57:20 - 00:23:05:07 Rev. Trudy The point is, and when you challenge, you have to use some moral imagination. 00:23:05:09 - 00:23:35:06 Rev. Trudy Yes. I think her distinction is interesting. It's about looking at the outcomes of the voices. If it's a voice of power, you're going to see something different than it's a voice of love. But I still, I mean, it's still complicated, which I think for me is why this passage works for walking humbly with God. Right. 00:23:35:08 - 00:23:55:21 Rev. Trudy No matter what it is, we have to be humble and know that we could still be wrong. And that even when we use the value of love, the way I love you, may not be the way you want to be loved by me. 00:23:55:22 - 00:24:03:14 Rev. Hannah I've been telling you. Just kidding. I'm just curious. 00:24:03:16 - 00:24:05:06 Rev. Trudy No, no, but you know what I mean. 00:24:05:07 - 00:24:13:05 Rev. Hannah Yes. I mean, the point was to highlight that even between closely working colleagues. 00:24:13:07 - 00:24:36:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah, we do it wrong. Sometimes we get it wrong. And especially, I mean, for many, many decades, for centuries, we've gotten it wrong. What it looks like to love people of different ethnicities. Right. For a while, it was, “We love you, that's why we're taking away your children and putting them in a school that they’ll get educated with.” 00:24:36:06 - 00:24:45:16 Rev. Hannah So for some reason, love seems to be available for those who have more power than those who without. 00:24:45:17 - 00:24:46:04 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:24:46:05 - 00:24:54:02 Rev. Hannah Yeah, yeah. If the love is coming from that place. Right. That may not be well received by those right? 00:24:54:04 - 00:25:14:14 Rev. Trudy Who doesn't have. That's right. Equal agency in that dynamic. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sorry. I didn't mean to come out wrong, but the point is. Okay, I'll stop bringing you coffee in the morning. I'm just kidding. But I. 00:25:14:14 - 00:25:20:00 Rev. Hannah But I do think that you put a wonderful series name 00:25:20:02 - 00:25:22:13 Rev. Hannah around it. “The Do's and Don'ts Of.” 00:25:22:14 - 00:25:55:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. What was the exact title? What did I say? Times like these. The do's and don'ts of times like these. Yes. Micah was very clear on those “Don't.” Yes, he was. And those “Do’s.” Yeah. He was very clear. This has been enlightening for me. I mean, I really love your brilliant mind to be able to kind of help me, you know, really find those fine lines that separate us from others and have a better understanding of why that separation is there. 00:25:55:15 - 00:26:17:19 Rev. Trudy That's been a helpful thing. Yes. And I do appreciate your invitation to all of us to read the Scripture in a way that I'm reading it right now, that's forming my identity as I. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Oh, look at that bit of love flowing back and forth here. No, not for me. I work for you. Yes. 00:26:17:20 - 00:26:47:01 Rev. Trudy Okay. Oh, gosh. I'll be in big trouble. I'm just kidding. I would lose my sleep. Just kidding. Yes. I enjoy having this conversation around those topics and. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I'm believed that God will be pleased with our conversation as well. I sure hope so. I also kind of hope and believe that God honors good intentions. 00:26:47:03 - 00:27:10:13 Rev. Trudy You know. Yeah. They have to be intentions that if ever pointed out that they aren't good, need to be reckoned with. They can't be intentions that we have that we have ignored all the challenge to those intentions. But yes. Yeah, good intentions count. Anyway, we could keep going. Yeah, we could talk forever. I will be quiet. I'll shut up and. 00:27:10:15 - 00:27:41:18 Rev. Trudy Sorry. I'll be quiet and wrapping up and offer our conversation questions” Where have you seen gifts used with integrity, even when it costs something? What does walk humbly look like in positions of power, influence, and leadership? And: What makes you realize that you must be humble before God? These are the questions that I we would love to continue. 00:27:41:20 - 00:28:07:00 Rev. Trudy Right. For sure. Yes. I hope you gather with other people and share your honest thoughts. There's something amazing about having a conversation, honest conversation around the scripture with people you trust. So hope you enjoy your conversations and thanks for listening and we'll see you or connect with you next time. That's good. Thank you. Bye bye. 00:28:07:02 - 00:28:20:14 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources. Visit fumcsd.org