00:00:00:09 - 00:00:42:23 Rev. Trudy The Apostle Paul. Was he right or was he wrong? Either love him or you hate them. Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. Welcome back to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson. I'm here with Reverend Brittany Juliet Hanlin, and we are continuing this three week series right after Easter, looking at “The Grace of the Passion and recognizing that there's a lot about Jesus's crucifixion and his resurrection that we may or may not understand or fully grasp right in the moment. 00:00:43:04 - 00:01:05:12 Rev. Trudy And so we're offering ourselves a lot of grace. And we're saying that we don't have to get it right today. That's what we're talking about. And we're using the scripture from 1 Corinthians Chapter 15, Verses 1 through 8. And this is from the Common English Bible translation. So I invite you to hear the Scripture. You ready for this? 00:01:05:13 - 00:01:07:09 Rev. Trudy I should have asked. You ready? 00:01:07:11 - 00:01:10:12 Rev. Brittany You know ... Yeah, it's Paul. It's ... take me on the journey. 00:01:10:12 - 00:01:37:18 Rev. Trudy Okay. Yeah. Listeners, I know you know that Brittany has a very unique relationship with Paul. We'll hear a little bit more about that, but let's hear his words first, 1 Corinthians 15, verses 1 through 8: “Brothers and sisters, I want to call your attention to the good news that they preached to you, which you also received, and in which you stand. 00:01:37:19 - 00:01:58:01 Rev. Trudy You are being saved through it if you hold on to the message I preached to you, unless somehow you believed it for nothing. I passed on to you as most important what I also received: Christ died for our sins in line with the scriptures, he was buried, and he rose on the third day in line with the scriptures. 00:01:58:06 - 00:02:19:10 Rev. Trudy He appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve, and then he appeared to more than 500 brothers and sisters at once—most of them are still alive to this day, though some have died. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all, he appeared to me as if I were born at the wrong time.” 00:02:19:12 - 00:02:28:20 Rev. Trudy You know, I know, I know you love Paul. I know you love Paul. What’d you say, right before we started rolling? You said, “Trudy, you need to preach like Paul!” 00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:14 Rev. Brittany Right? 00:02:29:15 - 00:02:30:07 Rev. Trudy Is that what you said? 00:02:30:11 - 00:02:35:06 Rev. Brittany I’m sure that the church would be full of people if you condemned them the way that Paul does. 00:02:35:06 - 00:02:39:03 Rev. Trudy Oh, he just tells it like it is, doesn't it? Doesn't he? 00:02:39:05 - 00:02:45:21 Rev. Brittany Okay. Kind of. He tells it like it is, but from the vantage point that he is the authority. 00:02:45:22 - 00:02:47:13 Rev. Trudy Oh, and he's always right. 00:02:47:13 - 00:02:58:18 Rev. Brittany And he's always right. Yeah. And in so doing, if you are listening to him, then you will always be right. And that's a problematic theology. Point blank period. 00:02:58:19 - 00:03:19:21 Rev. Trudy Well, it's only going to get worse as we move on through this, I think. I don't know, but yeah, this is some really, very confident language. And I love the way he says, “let me just call to your attention.” I think I'm going to try that opening line on Sunday. So just, “I just want to call your attention!” 00:03:19:23 - 00:03:45:07 Rev. Trudy You know, I've told you over and over. There it is. That's right. He did kind of say that. This is an interesting scripture. And, I think it raises something that we see in Paul's writings a lot. And I know I have wondered about this, and others have as well. And that is the idea that Paul, he's the earliest writer of the letters that are in our New Testament. 00:03:45:11 - 00:04:08:09 Rev. Trudy So the very ... and the earliest documents that comprise the New Testament. And so, he's closest to Jesus with that written testimony, but he never says anything about Jesus' life. His ministry. Nothing. It's all about his death and his resurrection. 00:04:08:11 - 00:04:10:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Do you wonder about that? 00:04:10:06 - 00:04:13:00 Rev. Brittany I wonder about it all the time. I wonder about it all the time. 00:04:13:02 - 00:04:16:23 Rev. Trudy Well, I dug some things. I dug a little deeper. 00:04:17:01 - 00:04:18:06 Rev. Brittany And get me out of the hole. 00:04:18:08 - 00:04:49:00 Rev. Trudy You know, his emphasis on the crucifixion and the resurrection, the resurrection in particular, really comes out of his Jewish tradition. And, back in that part of the world at that time, at the first century, Judaism had this expectation that the end times would come. Yes. And it would be marked by the resurrection of the dead. 00:04:49:01 - 00:04:51:05 Rev. Brittany The eschaton, the eschaton. 00:04:51:05 - 00:05:19:12 Rev. Trudy That's right, the eschaton. And the, this is stuff that Judaism drew from the prophets. Both pre- and post-exile prophets, especially the Book of Daniel. And it's apocalyptic literature. I think this theology of this understanding, and I'm going to unpack that a little bit, was very much influenced by Zoroastrianism. 00:05:19:12 - 00:05:20:19 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Right. 00:05:20:21 - 00:06:00:19 Rev. Trudy Where there's a cosmic battle, that end time, all of that kind of stuff, I think that is informing how Paul is understanding who Jesus is. And that understanding of the end times for many Jews in at that time, for most Jews, all Jews, I should probably say, was that there was a process that would mark when the end times were coming. And it began with God redeeming the Jewish people from their captivity. And, initially from the captivity of in Babylon. 00:06:00:19 - 00:06:33:03 Rev. Trudy Right. But there have been others. The Roman Empire is others. Right. But there's the redemption of the Jewish people, the Jewish people returning to the land of Israel. The restoration of the Kingdom of Israel, the House of David, the appointment of a somebody from the House of David to lead the Jewish people, to usher in that messianic age, and of course, that's Jesus. 00:06:33:05 - 00:06:54:19 Rev. Trudy And then the expectation that with that leader, all of the Gentile nations will come to recognize Israel's God and come to Mount Zion, be all together. And then there will be the resurrection of the dead. And the judge of all the souls before God then creates a new heaven and a new earth. Right. It's a whole long timeline. 00:06:54:21 - 00:06:58:03 Rev. Trudy And I think this is in the back of Paul's head. 00:06:58:07 - 00:06:58:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:06:58:19 - 00:07:24:13 Rev. Trudy And when the story of Jesus' resurrection begins to happen, it doesn't exactly follow this timeline, but there's enough markers, I think, for Paul to say that's what it is. And indeed, that's what he says in his light, in his writings, that this is the first fruits of the resurrection that heralds in the end of days. 00:07:24:13 - 00:07:27:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah, right. 00:07:27:23 - 00:07:49:00 Rev. Trudy And that, for Paul, really accomplishes all that Jesus wants to do or wanted to do in his ministry: justice, peace, righteousness. Those are kind of the three adverbs. Yeah. Am I talking ... am I starting to lecture now? 00:07:49:01 - 00:07:57:04 Rev. Brittany No, no, no! I'm just ... you know how I am about Paul. So I'm taking him. I'm absorbing. I'm taking it in. 00:07:57:06 - 00:07:58:23 Rev. Trudy That's what that look. 00:07:59:03 - 00:08:01:06 Rev. Brittany That's the look. It's like it's for Paul. 00:08:01:08 - 00:08:32:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah, I’m trying to reason with Paul, and explain to him. And you're just not not giving him any real. Okay. Nevertheless, in this passage and throughout his writings, he really emphasizes that the most important thing relative to what the tradition has been that he received that he's passed on is that Jesus died and Jesus was resurrected. 00:08:32:21 - 00:09:03:18 Rev. Trudy Right. So, for me, I think that's a really interesting kind of connection that we don't always think about as Christians. Meaning the resurrection is what really initiates the full-on change of the world, the new heaven and the new earth. We have more emphatically stressed the forgiveness of sins and that kind of personal salvation that is evident in the resurrection. 00:09:03:20 - 00:09:30:15 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean, yes. But I'm struggling. The reason of the look on my face. Yeah. Yeah. Thinking about this. Okay. I'm struggling. And always ... I think I've always, I think I have always struggled. Yeah. With the emphasis of Jesus' resurrection rather than the work of his life. Yeah. Right. And also, this idea, you know, Paul says, you know, Jesus died for our sins. 00:09:30:15 - 00:09:54:08 Rev. Brittany Like, I don't agree with that. So, you know, that type of theology, even though it was at a very different time, I can see how that theology still shows up today. Right. And so, I wrestle a bit. Right. I agree that ... I think that, you know, I agree with pieces of what Paul was able to gather. Like with the resurrection, we are ushering in a newness. 00:09:54:08 - 00:10:20:03 Rev. Brittany Right? I get that. But to leave the resurrection without the works to me feels a little disjointed. And also, kind of perpetuates this into individualistic type salvation rather than, to me, to care for this society as a whole. 00:10:20:05 - 00:10:24:10 Rev. Trudy And I see something a little bit more kind in Paul. 00:10:24:10 - 00:10:26:03 Rev. Brittany Don't you always? 00:10:26:05 - 00:10:26:18 Rev. Trudy Well ... ! 00:10:26:18 - 00:10:28:05 Rev. Brittany The pillar of grace. 00:10:28:06 - 00:10:38:12 Rev. Trudy So, here's the interesting thing. Paul is writing to a particular church, the church in Corinth. And we know the church in Corinth was troublesome to Paul. 00:10:38:14 - 00:10:40:04 Rev. Brittany And like all of them. 00:10:40:10 - 00:11:05:17 Rev. Trudy Well, like all of them were. But Corinth in particular. And Paul wasn't expecting to write scripture, right? He was writing a letter to a church he had told, he had preached at, and said, here's the good news. Pay attention, right. So, I think that part of what we have done as Christians is pulled some pieces out from Paul to make some of those things, more emphatic. 00:11:05:18 - 00:11:06:12 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:11:06:14 - 00:11:29:00 Rev. Trudy And out of context, because Paul was speaking to a particular context, and the context for Paul, it was the Corinthians. They were not embracing a communal forgiveness. They were not they were not embracing the idea that we are all equal in our relationship. 00:11:29:04 - 00:11:35:14 Speaker 3 You're still not buying it? I'm sure, lady. Can I just talk to you, Meghan? Let me just tell you. You are listening. 00:11:35:15 - 00:11:42:07 Rev. Trudy But when you're starting to smirk, I'm thinking. Wait a second. I've lost her. 00:11:42:09 - 00:11:43:11 Rev. Brittany No, I’m just thinking. It's always Paul. 00:11:43:17 - 00:11:46:18 Rev. Trudy Sorry. I'm just going to close my eyes and talk there. 00:11:46:19 - 00:11:47:04 Rev. Brittany I'm here. 00:11:47:05 - 00:12:04:20 Rev. Trudy I know it is, Paul. I know it is Paul. But. But, if the forgiveness. So, the people in Corinth, they were beginning to rank people as some who were more faithful and less faithful. And that was the sin for Paul. 00:12:04:21 - 00:12:05:22 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:12:06:00 - 00:12:29:16 Rev. Trudy It was the sin of not living into this idea that we're all new. Okay. And it was a sin because it was more like the conventional wisdom of the day, as Marcus Borg would call it. That idea that where we are is based on our merit. Yes. And the hierarchy that is in society is based on our merit. 00:12:29:21 - 00:12:46:14 Rev. Trudy And I think, Paul, when he connects it to the end of days in this dream of a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness and justice and peace prevail. He is looking at his church and saying, “Knock it off. You're supposed to be citizens of this next kingdom, not this kingdom.” 00:12:46:17 - 00:12:47:04 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:12:47:06 - 00:13:18:06 Rev. Trudy And I think that's … I don't think he could come to that decision without also knowing a little bit about who Jesus was. And what kind of ministry he had and what kind of disciples he gathered and how they were trying to live. So, I can find in Paul that connection between the framework that he's looking at Jesus through, which is the end times and the and the perfect world— 00:13:18:07 - 00:13:31:00 Rev. Trudy Jesus might have called it the “Kingdom of God” instead of “the end of days.” Right. But I think he wouldn't have seen that if it wasn't how Jesus lived his life. 00:13:31:02 - 00:13:40:12 Rev. Brittany So, if … so, do you think that Paul thought that there were actions necessary other than grace? 00:13:40:14 - 00:13:44:13 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. That's what he's talking to the Corinthians about. Okay. Absolutely. Right. 00:13:44:14 - 00:13:45:15 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:13:45:17 - 00:14:15:19 Rev. Trudy And I think, I think Paul knew fully well that it was the Empire that killed Jesus. And so, that threat that Jesus posed to the social order was also what undermined that conventional wisdom that his people were still abiding by. Right. So, he is, he's so embedded in this end time hope. 00:14:15:21 - 00:14:44:01 Rev. Trudy That he wants to live in it right now. And he's angry with his folks who aren't doing that, who are continuing to live in the old ways, thinking it might actually be just, “oh, he died for my sin” or something. I mean, yeah, we don't know what they're thinking, but certainly that has … your critique of Paul is spot on because that's how Christianity has become. 00:14:44:03 - 00:14:48:06 Rev. Trudy Right. That's how Christianity has become. 00:14:48:08 - 00:15:24:18 Rev. Brittany Yeah, I think, again, Paul has good things to say. I don't like his condescension and his tone sometimes. And I also, like I said, if I had met Paul during the first century. Yeah, I might have thought he was a cool guy. But seeing how much of Paul has been misinterpreted, right. And used to justify the very thing that you're saying that Paul was against, which is the hierarchy, which is this “who's in and who's out” in the church kind of thing. 00:15:24:19 - 00:15:37:00 Rev. Brittany Right. To see those words be misconstrued as I have seen Christ's words misconstrued, it becomes a little troublesome. 00:15:37:01 - 00:15:38:12 Rev. Trudy So, Yes. 00:15:38:13 - 00:15:39:11 Rev. Brittany To the spirit. 00:15:39:12 - 00:15:51:11 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. That's why we are doing this podcast. Correct. Boy, if I could sound like Paul right now, I think I just did, you know because “Listen to the good news. We've got it. Nobody else!” 00:15:51:12 - 00:15:53:14 Rev. Brittany If you all listened, then everything would be fine. 00:15:53:15 - 00:16:28:00 Rev. Trudy No, that's not true. But let me say this. This whole timeline of the eschaton. Yeah. That I named earlier. That is what some of our brothers and sisters who call themselves Christians, as we do, are waiting for that timeline. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Right. And we know that that is part of the flavor of the theology that undergirds that Christian Nationalistic religion. 00:16:28:01 - 00:17:00:12 Rev. Trudy And we'll be talking about that soon. And more. Yeah. But it is disturbing. And it's interesting because they have added the work to the eschaton timeline and have seen that the way Christians can live into the end of times is to force the end of times to come quicker by ticking off the things on the timeline. 00:17:00:12 - 00:17:04:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Right. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. 00:17:04:03 - 00:17:06:09 Rev. Brittany And I just wonder. 00:17:06:11 - 00:17:23:20 Rev. Trudy Which is not their place! Which is not their place to facilitate the kingdom of Judaism or the Gentile nations all going to Jerusalem and, and, and ... Yeah. 00:17:23:22 - 00:17:24:20 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:17:24:22 - 00:17:37:18 Rev. Trudy The ignorance of the earth as opposed to living in it because … the ignorance of what the earth is going through because we will have a new heaven and a new earth as soon as all these things are done. 00:17:37:20 - 00:17:47:23 Rev. Brittany And that's for me, feels like this idea of focusing in on heaven. 00:17:48:01 - 00:18:13:08 Rev. Brittany And the work of God alone without also. Well, I mean, the eschaton, for me, feels like the work of God alone. We'll never know, you know, in our faith. Yeah. But I feel like sometimes there's a hyper focus on that new heaven. That we don't work toward building a healthier earth. 00:18:13:10 - 00:18:16:06 Rev. Trudy Well, so, let's talk a little bit more about that. 00:18:16:06 - 00:18:16:19 Rev. Brittany Talk to me. 00:18:17:00 - 00:18:29:03 Rev. Trudy Right. Paul got some things right. Definitely in his context. But I'm not sure his context is our context. 00:18:29:04 - 00:18:29:19 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:18:29:21 - 00:18:45:02 Rev. Trudy And I wouldn't explain things the way Paul has. And there are some things, as you mentioned earlier, that you don't believe that Paul has said right. So, I think we both can agree that there are some things that Paul has gotten wrong. 00:18:45:02 - 00:18:45:17 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:18:45:20 - 00:18:46:06 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:18:46:08 - 00:18:47:19 Rev. Brittany Shocking. 00:18:47:21 - 00:19:12:15 Rev. Trudy Just not really, actually. But, you know, I think so much of what we have in the scriptures, because they're 2000 years, and that's the youngest of it, right? And our worldview, our understanding of how things work, is different. And so, even to understand the resurrection, is complicated. And by the way, this passage does not prove the resurrection, right? 00:19:12:16 - 00:19:54:03 Rev. Trudy He's really just talking about the theological implications of the idea of resurrection. Right? So … but that's hard to explain. Knowing what we know. The idea that there's a new heaven and the earth is hard to explain based on what we know. And so, I think then, if we step back a little bit and move away from the literal understandings of the resurrection and the new heaven and the new earth, then we have the possibility of understanding that if we do have a concept of life coming out of death. 00:19:54:03 - 00:19:56:01 Rev. Brittany Yes. 00:19:56:03 - 00:20:06:02 Rev. Trudy Then we can have a way to live through it and to be new on the other side, too. 00:20:06:02 - 00:20:08:17 Rev. Brittany Live through life or to live through death> 00:20:08:18 - 00:20:17:04 Rev. Trudy Live … well… I… No, no, no, no. What I mean is live through the life that feels like it's death. Okay. I’m not ... 00:20:17:06 - 00:20:24:06 Rev. Brittany I know you're not talking literally, right? Right. Yeah, I was yeah. Yeah. So, like an example. 00:20:24:07 - 00:20:34:12 Rev. Trudy Oh, you're not going to provide one? I think I was. I'm okay. Okay. Well, the Holocaust. 00:20:34:12 - 00:20:37:03 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Okay. 00:20:37:05 - 00:20:39:17 Rev. Trudy Being Black in America. 00:20:39:19 - 00:20:56:07 Rev. Trudy Being forced to convert when Christian missionaries come to the foreign country. When everything is a violent response, right. I mean, I don't know how you survive any of that. I don't know how you survive war. 00:20:56:07 - 00:20:56:17 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:20:56:18 - 00:21:05:15 Rev. Trudy Or the threat of war. But I … some people have. 00:21:05:17 - 00:21:32:13 Rev. Trudy Right. So, it's that kind of awareness. I … I'm sorry as I stumble through this. I'm not exactly … I'm not willing to put everything into the bucket of faith for everyone to have survived those situations because of their faith. But many have. 00:21:32:15 - 00:21:52:13 Rev. Trudy And I do think there needs to be some story, mythological in its impact and its preservation, that grounds us in something that, “No, this is not the end. There's still some hope, there's still some possibility. There's still can be a way.” 00:21:52:15 - 00:22:11:18 Rev. Brittany Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So, is that, would you, is that understanding different than what we might consider hope, or is it just a more profound? Not profound, but a more developed, I guess. Yeah. 00:22:11:20 - 00:22:23:17 Rev. Trudy You know, I think I think it's a little bit of both. Okay. In that, it is definitely a profound hope. But I don't think hope is enough. 00:22:23:19 - 00:22:24:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:22:24:11 - 00:22:54:20 Rev. Trudy When you're living through those circumstances it's not enough. I think what you have to have, and I think Paul's kind of talking about it here, you have to have action. You have to have something to do that will remind you of the hope that you want. The Holocaust: Singing the Psalm in your head. 00:22:54:20 - 00:22:55:04 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:22:55:05 - 00:23:10:20 Rev. Trudy As you're going through that. Yeah. I know World War II who, prisoners of war who, remembered the scriptures. And that's how they survived two years in torture. Right. That's doing something. 00:23:10:22 - 00:23:15:08 Rev. Trudy To have that hope stay alive. 00:23:15:10 - 00:23:16:04 Rev. Brittany That makes sense. 00:23:16:08 - 00:23:23:00 Rev. Trudy And part of that is truly shifting your perspective. 00:23:23:02 - 00:23:31:09 Rev. Trudy To not look at the death but to look at the life and the life that could be. 00:23:31:11 - 00:24:07:04 Rev. Brittany Okay. I'm rocking with you. You rock. I'm rocking with you. You know, I'm rocking with you. I think though also there is something, for me, profound in acknowledging the both/and because you don't get the resurrection unless you get the crucifixion, and we have to, you know, I think that paying attention and acknowledging the depth of that death or the depth of despair or whatever it is, gives, makes the resurrection have weight to it. 00:24:07:07 - 00:24:11:19 Rev. Brittany Right. Because death was a part of the equation. You know. 00:24:11:23 - 00:24:14:17 Rev. Trudy That's a message for the privileged. 00:24:14:19 - 00:24:28:19 Rev. Trudy And I think it's like the message of the Corinthians for the Corinthians. Right. Because there were some Corinthians that still wanted to hold on to the idea that “I'm above it all. And I really only need this little bit of what you're giving me. Yeah. Faith. I don't need the whole thing.” 00:24:28:21 - 00:24:30:06 Rev. Brittany Right. Yeah. 00:24:30:08 - 00:24:43:00 Rev. Trudy But really, you have to really understand, as you said, the depth of what makes what makes us equal. 00:24:43:01 - 00:24:44:10 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:24:44:12 - 00:24:53:11 Rev. Trudy And live in that reality that we are equal. Right. And what happens to you, happens to me. 00:24:53:13 - 00:24:54:12 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:24:54:14 - 00:25:19:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. So, I think all of this, as Paul talks about the resurrection and the crucifixion in the context of the end times, I really do think it is his dream that he gave us something to practice. So that we can have the hope that it's going to happen. 00:25:19:02 - 00:25:20:14 Rev. Brittany Wait. Say that again. 00:25:20:16 - 00:25:54:05 Rev. Trudy I'm not sure I can. [laughter] So, when Paul talks about the crucifixion, and the resurrection, and the end times, that's the context, I think he is saying that's the most important thing because no matter how horrible this present world is, we now have the faith and the story and the understanding and the perspective to be able to see what we can do here in that horrible world so that it can be a better world. 00:25:54:07 - 00:25:57:13 Rev. Brittany So that resurrection is possible. There it is. Right. Yeah. 00:25:57:19 - 00:26:16:02 Rev. Trudy Exactly. And so, for all the things he says in this passage, I don't think he's right about all of them. And yet, he's telling us through these words there is something more important that we need to be paying attention to. 00:26:16:04 - 00:26:39:02 Rev. Trudy Right. The … what's he say … the good news. Call your attention to the good news. I can't find it. What is most important. Yes. “I passed unto you as most important.” 00:26:39:04 - 00:27:03:10 Rev. Trudy “What I also received when is most important. And I … “ Okay, I threw her back into Paul again. I guess I shouldn't have quoted him. I'm listening but I think, I think what this means is that, Paul was on to something that was very important and it was really the idea that we are living into the new life now. 00:27:03:10 - 00:27:04:07 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:27:04:09 - 00:27:16:12 Rev. Trudy None of these people were experiencing the first fruits of the resurrection of the end times. None of them were, right, but he was encouraging them to live into it anyway. Because that's the most important thing. 00:27:16:17 - 00:27:19:04 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I feel like that's faith. Yeah. Right. 00:27:19:05 - 00:27:19:23 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:27:20:00 - 00:27:22:01 Rev. Brittany That's absolutely. Yeah. 00:27:22:03 - 00:27:23:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:27:23:02 - 00:27:48:00 Rev. Brittany Again, I don't think he's all wrong. I don't think he's all wrong. I just don't know. I think… I think Paul and I might put our punctuation different there. You know what I mean? There you go. Where he's put a period, I might add a comma. Well, you know what I mean. Okay. To expand on the thought, but I don't need to belabor and beat up on Paul anymore. 00:27:48:00 - 00:27:55:00 Rev. Brittany You have done a good defense of the Christian apostle, that is, who walks alongside us. 00:27:55:02 - 00:28:17:14 Rev. Trudy But I do have to say. I mean, it's really easy to read this passage and read it too literally. Yeah. And to have the kind of expectations that really don't require us to be wrong or to be compassionate towards those who are living through some of the horrible stuff. 00:28:17:16 - 00:28:21:09 Rev. Brittany So then let's bring it back. Right, Reverend? Yeah. Hello. 00:28:21:10 - 00:28:21:18 Rev. Trudy Hello. 00:28:21:19 - 00:28:27:21 Rev. Brittany But the theologian in my in my presence right now. So, we don't have to get it right. 00:28:28:02 - 00:28:29:06 Rev. Trudy We don't have to get it right. 00:28:29:07 - 00:28:35:02 Rev. Brittany Because he's getting, like, explain that. Okay. Help me with that. Help me get in there. Okay, get in there. 00:28:35:04 - 00:28:44:09 Rev. Trudy We don't have to get it right. All we have to know is what's the most important thing. Okay. And what did Jesus say is the most important thing? 00:28:44:11 - 00:28:47:10 Rev. Brittany I don't know. Oh, you know this one? You know, do I? 00:28:47:12 - 00:28:49:10 Rev. Trudy The most important commandment. You know it. 00:28:49:10 - 00:28:53:17 Rev. Brittany You know, to love one another. As I have loved you. 00:28:53:18 - 00:28:59:22 Rev. Brittany To love your God with all your heart, soul, and strength, and mind. So, if you do those things. 00:29:00:00 - 00:29:07:16 Rev. Trudy Hey, can you imagine the kind of world we live in? I'm a fan. 00:29:07:17 - 00:29:41:12 Rev. Brittany I think that I am. I am too. I am too. I am too. I am too. I think, however, we spend, at least in our context today as a culture, there's a huge emphasis on if it means loving my God, I will … or if it means, you know, creating a hierarchy or if it means disparaging another person or if it means marginalizing someone. 00:29:41:13 - 00:30:01:09 Rev. Brittany But it is edifying God in the thought. You know what I mean? If that's what your understanding of love is. That's right. Then it's … I think that there's a bigger emphasis on the loving your God. Right. And so, you can justify those things that you do to harm other people. 00:30:01:10 - 00:30:05:01 Rev. Trudy You're talking like the Corinthians right now. That's right. 00:30:05:02 - 00:30:26:12 Rev. Brittany Well maybe he should have said it differently. But no. So, this idea that like in order to love God means that I have to persecute this person because they don't believe. That's right. The scriptures say, and they don't live their life according to, you know. And so, that's right. That disconnect for me is. 00:30:26:14 - 00:30:30:00 Rev. Brittany I guess where, where my mind is going. Right. 00:30:30:02 - 00:30:37:00 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I do think it's connected to the hierarchy that Paul is trying to address. 00:30:37:02 - 00:30:42:16 Rev. Brittany Listen, he's tried to address it in a few different scriptures. Okay. And he didn't say it just in this one. 00:30:42:16 - 00:30:49:18 Rev. Trudy So, you know, what if he said it over and over again, then I can forgive him for saying, “I want to call your attention.” 00:30:49:19 - 00:30:55:15 Rev. Brittany “I called you over and over again the message that I preached to you, and somehow you believed it for nothing.” 00:30:55:16 - 00:30:58:04 Rev. Trudy This was a lively conversation. You know. 00:30:58:04 - 00:31:17:06 Rev. Brittany I get a little enlivened. Well, when we get to talking about Paul. Not because I think that Paul is bad. Again, I don't think that. I think he's speaking from a very particular context. I do, however, see his words and see them misconstrued and see that embodied theology out in the world as justification to create an “us versus them.” 00:31:17:06 - 00:31:31:07 Rev. Brittany Right. And who's in and who's out and who's right and who's wrong. And Paul may not have … that's not what he wanted. But like I said, extrapolating his words and then, yeah, you know, can create a monster. 00:31:31:07 - 00:31:38:00 Rev. Trudy We human beings can be pretty good at manipulating some of that stuff to our own ends anyway. Correct. Yeah. 00:31:38:04 - 00:31:48:06 Rev. Brittany Correct. Correct, correct. Okay, girl. I appreciate you sharing the grace of the passion with me and with Paul. The pillar of grace that you are. Okay. 00:31:48:07 - 00:31:48:18 Rev. Trudy Okay. 00:31:48:19 - 00:32:09:06 Rev. Brittany All right. My goodness. I hope to one day be so gracious, Church, but not today. I have a couple of questions for you that we'd like you to ponder. You can ponder these questions on your own, in your own reflection, or we invite you to share them in conversation with some folks in your life: How do you connect Jesus' life to his resurrection? 00:32:09:07 - 00:32:24:13 Rev. Brittany Second question is: How does your belief in the resurrection change the way that you see the future and your life? And third: What are the details of your theology that you are hesitant to let go of? 00:32:24:15 - 00:32:25:13 Rev. Trudy Good conversation. 00:32:25:14 - 00:32:31:15 Rev. Brittany Oh, I was about to answer question three, but ask me later. So good to see you. 00:32:31:17 - 00:32:49:12 Rev. Trudy Bye, everyone. Bye. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.