00:00:00:14 - 00:00:12:08 Rev. Hannah What if faith isn't about having clarity, but about staying in relationship with Christ, who keeps showing up even when you don't have deep understanding? 00:00:12:10 - 00:00:26:02 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:03 - 00:00:48:04 Rev. Hannah Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah, and I'm here with Reverend Brittany in the studio. We are so glad that you're tuning in to listen to our podcast. This week, we're reflecting on a post-Easter story that reminds us that we don't have to have it all figured out to be met by Christ. 00:00:48:05 - 00:01:20:21 Rev. Hannah So we're reading a story from John, chapter 20, verses 19 to 25. It's often subtitled as Doubting Thomas, but let me read it for us, to you, to you all. It starts like: “It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors, because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. 00:01:20:23 - 00:01:50:06 Rev. Hannah He said, ‘Peace be with you.’ After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. When the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the father sent me, so I am sending you.’ Then he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, 00:01:50:08 - 00:02:18:23 Rev. Hannah they are forgiven. If you don't forgive them, they aren't forgiven.’ Thomas, the one who called Didymus, one of the Twelve, wasn't with the disciples when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he replied, ‘Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by the nails, and put my hand into his side, 00:02:19:01 - 00:02:29:01 Rev. Hannah I won't believe.’” So, Reverend Brittany, what do you hear in the story? 00:02:29:03 - 00:02:56:10 Rev. Brittany You know, I ... it's the story. Like you said, it's Doubting Thomas. And we always hear it from Thomas' perspective of doubt. And I still hear it from Thomas' perspective of doubt, but not necessarily just doubt. Like a bit of grief, of, like, feeling like everyone else got to experience the thing that you didn't get to experience. And now, like, “well, I don't believe it's true because I didn't get to experience it,” you know? 00:02:56:11 - 00:03:06:15 Rev. Brittany Yes. And so, his doubt is kind of, to me, bred from this, like, FOMO, fear of missing out. You know, the thing that you don't have. 00:03:06:20 - 00:03:11:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah. It's not only FOMO. You mentioned a good word, grief. 00:03:11:15 - 00:03:12:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:03:12:10 - 00:03:48:18 Rev. Hannah And this is the only gospel that shows his name as a doubting disciple. And the other three synoptic gospels doesn't mention his name. It's about people having trouble believing. But I think this Johannine Gospel, which was written a little later than the other Synoptic Gospels, was facing a little different reality, real danger of being persecuted. And I could see that John, the author of John, was developing some characters as necessary to the faith community. 00:03:48:22 - 00:04:16:02 Rev. Hannah And he's one of those characters that the author must have. Carved out, too, as an example. So you you hear the story of Nicodemus and the Samaritan woman in the Gospel of John. And this Thomas shows up once before, earlier in the gospel in chapter 11, about “let us also go that we may die with him.” 00:04:16:04 - 00:04:42:16 Rev. Hannah He's not doubting there. He was fully committed. It was when Jesus was going to Judea after Lazarus died. Yeah. And they were facing some dangers. And this loyal character was right there. “I'm ready to die with him.” And he died and he didn't die. Jesus died, but Thomas didn't die. And grief was there as well. 00:04:42:16 - 00:04:56:07 Rev. Hannah Not just fear of missing out. But grief of losing a well-respected teacher and Lord for him that he was ready to risk his life. 00:04:56:11 - 00:05:13:07 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Yeah. And to know that the person that he's grieving has come back and made an appearance. And he missed it. It's devastating. Yes. Like “How? Did I? What? Is he going to come to me now?!” Yes. “Like, is he going to meet me on the road? Like what happened?” 00:05:13:09 - 00:05:44:03 Rev. Hannah So, he was. Yeah. He was missing out and he was expressing, his grief right there. And the Gospel of John doesn't say that. He put his hands into his wounds. It doesn't. It just left. Left us in our imagination. Yeah. But I wondered, as I was reading this one, this scripture, this time from the perspective of the Grace of the Passion. 00:05:44:06 - 00:05:45:18 Rev. Brittany Okay. 00:05:45:20 - 00:05:58:13 Rev. Hannah That it might have been this Lord's, Jesus’, repeated offering of grace. That actually assured him that it was him. 00:05:58:15 - 00:06:12:06 Rev. Hannah He didn't have to be physically examining the body. But that repeated grace sounds familiar to me. That must be him. Yeah. No one else. Is that patient and graceful. 00:06:12:08 - 00:06:13:17 Rev. Brittany No I'm not. 00:06:13:19 - 00:06:17:12 Rev. Hannah No, I mean, like, in his lifetime, he hasn't 00:06:17:16 - 00:06:20:12 Rev. Brittany met anybody else. Yeah. 00:06:20:13 - 00:06:42:11 Rev. Hannah So that's how I wanted to flip the story. Not from the doubting Thomas' perspective, but from Jesus’ perspective as I was trying to emphasize the subject. Yeah. Of the text throughout those several verses. The subject of each sentence is Jesus. 00:06:42:13 - 00:06:44:15 Rev. Brittany It is. 00:06:44:17 - 00:07:11:16 Rev. Hannah So that brings us back to the point. We are going through this post-Easter season. It's okay, we don't have to figure it out. It's okay, we don't have to be okay. Yeah. It's okay that we don't have to get it right. So I can see how grace shows up in your Emmaus story that they weren't expecting it. 00:07:11:18 - 00:07:12:15 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:07:12:17 - 00:07:22:20 Rev. Hannah On the road in grief. Jesus showed up. And again this time, they weren't expecting it to happen behind the closed doors. 00:07:22:22 - 00:07:42:18 Rev. Brittany Because they're afraid right? They're not just having a meeting just to chit chat. Like the text says, they're meeting behind closed doors because they were afraid of the authorities. Right. And Jesus came immediately as they closed the door. You know that it's not even a period. It's a comma in the sentence. They were afraid of the Jewish authorities. 00:07:42:20 - 00:07:45:22 Rev. Brittany Jesus came and stood among them. 00:07:46:00 - 00:07:47:16 Rev. Hannah Can you imagine yourself in that? 00:07:47:22 - 00:07:54:11 Rev. Brittany I mean what? Wow. 00:07:54:12 - 00:08:12:04 Rev. Hannah And Jesus showed up even when they were not prepared. When there weren't worthy or ready to receive his visit. Jesus showed up and he showed himself. 00:08:12:06 - 00:08:35:00 Rev. Brittany So, that's, for me, last week with the Road to Emmaus, Jesus shows up while they're grieving, while they're sad. And in this time, Jesus shows up when they're afraid. Yeah. Right. And so, this idea that Jesus is showing up wherever we are on the journey, whether it's out of sadness or fear, these emotions that we try to push off all the time. 00:08:35:02 - 00:08:39:10 Rev. Brittany That's where the risen Christ is encountered. 00:08:39:12 - 00:08:54:05 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you just named an important aspect that emotion is part of our faith journey. Oh yeah. Part of our life. We cannot shove it off. We cannot ignore it. We have to name it. 00:08:54:06 - 00:08:54:15 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:08:54:20 - 00:09:17:17 Rev. Hannah And. Strangely enough, Jesus shows up whenever our emotion is stirred, whenever our bodies hurt, whenever we are psychologically unhealthy. Unwell. Yeah. So, we can see how gracefully Jesus enters into our life, in our most vulnerable moments. 00:09:17:18 - 00:09:42:08 Rev. Brittany And, you know, the text goes on to say, like you said, that Jesus is the subject of every one of these sentences. True. And Jesus says in the next line, “Peace be with you.” So, they were afraid of the authorities. And Jesus says, “Peace be with you.” So, like, this idea that peace can still appear to us, even in our most fragmented and frail and fearful moments. Like, that's when we need the peace of Christ the most. 00:09:42:10 - 00:09:43:05 Rev. Brittany Yeah, right. 00:09:43:06 - 00:09:51:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And it's not the “Peace of Christ” we pass casually on Sunday. “Peace be with you” in this sentence. Shalom. 00:09:51:17 - 00:09:52:01 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:09:52:01 - 00:10:12:00 Rev. Hannah Means it's peace inside and out. And you're well grounded. It's emotional, a social and psychological and faithful well-being. That it's not just a moment of peace. 00:10:12:02 - 00:10:13:04 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:10:13:06 - 00:10:20:13 Rev. Hannah Like a panacea type of peace. But peace as a ground. The ground of your being. 00:10:20:16 - 00:10:23:09 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Like your anchor. 00:10:23:11 - 00:10:50:15 Rev. Hannah And he offers peace. He offers the Holy Spirit. And as I look at these people as Jesus offers one gift after another, I don't see any follow up changes, any improvements, and any changes in their heart, yet, other than joy coming into the scene instead of fear. 00:10:50:16 - 00:10:51:20 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:10:51:22 - 00:11:10:16 Rev. Hannah So here, it wasn't about understanding what just happened to Jesus. It wasn't about believing him enough or his resurrection enough, but it was more about their forming relationship with this person. 00:11:10:18 - 00:11:18:15 Rev. Hannah Came into their room. So what do you think about faith as relationship? 00:11:18:17 - 00:11:21:06 Rev. Brittany I think. 00:11:21:08 - 00:11:44:19 Rev. Brittany I think people need people in general. Right. I think that's why babies don't just hatch from eggs and go out into the world on their own. Right. They need their parents, they need family. They need community. And that is always the same for us as we continue to matriculate throughout life. So I think, you know, the that Jesus is coming to these disciples out of their fear, right? 00:11:45:01 - 00:12:09:00 Rev. Brittany But it's also, I think, Jesus coming to them to remind them, like, you've experienced a lot. You've witnessed one of—he doesn't say this but—you've witnessed one among you betray me, right. And betray us. You've witnessed me go to trial and, you know, be crucified. You've witnessed my death, but you got to forgive people. 00:12:09:02 - 00:12:30:20 Rev. Brittany Like you, you gotta learn how to work in community even when your heart is broken. Because we're commanded into this radical act of forgiveness. So, I think that, you know, if it were me, I'm just speaking for me, if it were me that had witnessed what I had witnessed, of my friend and mentor being killed, 00:12:30:22 - 00:12:48:17 Rev. Brittany I would want everyone's head on a platter. Like right. I don't think that I would be ... I'm not I'm not going to be very pious. Like, “Lord forgive them for their sins.” I would be enraged. You know what I mean? And so, I can imagine that in fear. And I think fear also, like, creates a sense of rage, right? 00:12:48:17 - 00:13:02:19 Rev. Brittany Because you're now you got to protect yourself. And now it's, you know, now you can't trust anybody. And so, I think that Jesus coming to them in their fear and reminding them to forgive is a way to help them navigate through the rage that they're feeling. 00:13:02:21 - 00:13:14:17 Rev. Brittany And how they need, they're going to have to forgive one another for some of the things that they will do in the missteps that they have. And they're also going to have to forgive folks that they encounter outside of those closed doors. 00:13:14:21 - 00:13:24:18 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yes. In the Johannine community, it's the forgiveness of sins. And their understanding of sin is not about moral. 00:13:24:21 - 00:13:25:04 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:13:25:06 - 00:13:56:14 Rev. Hannah Sin. It's more about misaligned relationship. So, you're right on the fact that the risen Christ, who was also the object of persecution. Right. Showing up to the afraid people, saying “It's up to you, how you build your relationship with these people outside the closed doors. Now you're about to build relationships outside this church, even with those who have the power over us.” 00:13:56:16 - 00:14:20:14 Rev. Hannah “And for whoever you forgive they're forgiven. Whoever you don't, they're not.” It's not the urgency saying you have to forgive them. Yeah. It's up to you. It's up to you to build that relationship after Easter. Build that relationship after the persecution, after the relationship had been broken. 00:14:20:16 - 00:14:34:10 Rev. Brittany So, and to know that if the same applies to you. Right. So if you don't forgive, then other folks have the right not to forgive you. And that you know what I mean. So it's a ... Jesus isn’t 00:14:34:10 - 00:14:35:01 Rev. Hannah 00:14:35:03 - 00:14:39:07 Rev. Brittany saying it. He doesn't say it straight out that way. But it to me applies, right? 00:14:39:11 - 00:15:09:20 Rev. Hannah Yes. And here this was a stark contrast of seeing faith as a continual journey over against some of the evangelical churches, asking, when were you saved? Right. What date were you saved? Right. It was happening over time in this scene. It's it's not just once you get it and click it, then clarity shows up. They're still afraid, confused, disoriented. 00:15:09:22 - 00:15:16:08 Rev. Hannah And Jesus keeps showing up. And offering something more. Even the power to forgive. 00:15:16:10 - 00:15:24:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I always say, “Me and forgiveness, we working on it.” 00:15:24:10 - 00:15:43:13 Rev. Brittany “We working on it, God.” But see that's what I'm saying. I feel like Thomas gets a bad rap. Like I really do because Jesus is giving them peace. You know what I mean. He's heard, you know, the rest of them have heard the words of Jesus. “Peace.” Thomas is now having to, you know, take his second and third hand like. 00:15:43:15 - 00:16:02:05 Rev. Brittany Okay. So I feel like, I get why he's like he's doubtful in a way. Like, “How did you get the peace, and I didn't get the peace? I want a piece of the peace that we've got.” Like where the, you know what I mean? Or maybe Thomas shows up and he feels like nothing has changed within them. 00:16:02:05 - 00:16:04:15 Rev. Brittany So did you really meet Christ, because...? 00:16:04:17 - 00:16:07:12 Rev. Hannah That's another, you know, good imagination. 00:16:07:12 - 00:16:19:01 Rev. Brittany “You doing. Y'all acting the same. You still standing in the corner shaking and scared. Did you really get the peace?” You know who knows. So, I feel like Thomas is in a in a complicated position. 00:16:19:03 - 00:16:55:02 Rev. Hannah Yes. And I wish we had included the scene where Thomas encounters Jesus. Yeah. Later time. Yeah. In the following verses. And as I mentioned earlier in our podcast, that he didn't have to touch or see the proof to recognize this man's status. He was one of those relational person who could immediately, even if I don't see your face, if Brittany is showing up like 100 yards behind me, I can hear your voice and your tone and I can recognize you. 00:16:55:04 - 00:17:04:23 Rev. Hannah And it was like that in the following verse. And his rap, bad rap, wasn't fair. Right. And here, right now. 00:17:05:01 - 00:17:25:05 Rev. Brittany And I it's this like, just exactly what you said. It's like, there's something about energy exchange between people, right? And like, you know, when someone has genuine love and care for you and, you know, when they don't. Right. And so, Thomas didn't have to see the nails in his side. But just like you're saying, he could feel the relationship. 00:17:25:05 - 00:17:25:22 Rev. Hannah Feel the heart. 00:17:25:22 - 00:17:52:20 Rev. Brittany And he could feel the love that was being poured between, you know, them in that experience. And I think that to me, that's when we recognize the risen Christ, is when we can recognize it within each other. Right. In relationship. Exactly. Jesus has come to me in so many ways, but not in the way, like “I was walking down the road, you know, to Emmaus, and Jesus walked alongside me.” 00:17:52:20 - 00:18:24:20 Rev. Brittany But I have encountered Jesus in interactions with other people when I was feeling down. And someone may have said something that like, really lifted my spirits and it's like, “Oh, maybe I do matter in the world.” Or I was feeling pretty insignificant and someone said, “Oh, the word that you said really empowered me.” And it's like, “Oh!” You know. “Maybe God is...” You know, like those moments of those interactions, to me, have reminded me of God's presence and in the risen ... and not just God's presence, but I'm talking about the risen Christ. And not just Jesus of Nazareth, but the risen Christ. 00:18:24:20 - 00:18:34:08 Rev. Brittany Yes. And the risen Christ reminds me that, like, even though bad things happen in the world, that that's not the, that doesn't have the final say yet. Right? Yes. 00:18:34:10 - 00:18:42:07 Rev. Hannah And I love the fact that you mentioned that the risen Christ showed up. Didn't change the circumstances a bit. 00:18:42:07 - 00:18:42:19 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:18:42:19 - 00:18:50:13 Rev. Hannah The persecution, the fear didn't go away and they weren't safe. But he gave them peace. 00:18:50:13 - 00:18:51:06 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:18:51:08 - 00:19:22:17 Rev. Hannah And the risen Christ, when the risen Christ shows up, even when the circumstances don't change, your inner attitude changes, and you have more confidence and more relationships, ongoing conversation with that risen Christ, asking the right questions like Thomas. Not doubting Thomas. Right. But putting good questions Thomas. And faith may not be about clarity. It's about living in the tensions of reality. 00:19:22:22 - 00:19:52:18 Rev. Hannah And what's given to you and the tension between uncertainty and ongoing questions. And you, you cannot love someone unless you keep on asking questions out of curiosity. Getting to know that person. So maybe faith isn't about preserving resolving that tension, it's more about staying in relationship with that risen Christ. Who keeps showing up. 00:19:52:20 - 00:19:56:09 Rev. Brittany Because the risen Christ shows up in the tension. Right. 00:19:56:11 - 00:20:19:19 Rev. Brittany It's always in the tension. And I know for me, I don't like the tension. I don't like the tension. I'm like “Okay, I would rather not feel like this. I would rather be done with this.” You know. Please. But I have learned through many years of therapy that that growth happens when you embrace the both-and that nothing is always either-or. 00:20:19:19 - 00:20:54:17 Rev. Brittany There's always a tension. And I am working. I used to say there is no such thing, there's no gray. It's only black and white. And then someone, beloved pastor in my divinity school years, said to me, “Well, Brittany, gray is a color, too.” And I thought, oh, okay, okay. You know. But there's ... I ... it's ... I feel like, at least for me, it's hard to sometimes live in the both-and, but that's where the risen Christ shows up in the tension of it all. And reminds us that we don't have to hold it all together. 00:20:54:20 - 00:21:10:04 Rev. Brittany We can just be with the tension. Dance with the tension. The joy and the sorrow, the anger and the optimism. You know, all of it can work together. Because I think that's what it means to be a human. 00:21:10:06 - 00:21:42:20 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yeah. You named it, right? When we live in either reality: either Jews or a Greek, either slave owners or slaves, either male or female. It's always going to be exclusionary. But Jesus came to give us the death can happen with redemption. Persecution. Crucifixion with resurrection. And he just changed our mentality into both-and. 00:21:42:20 - 00:21:43:12 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:21:43:14 - 00:21:52:20 Rev. Hannah And so that we may be able to find peace in struggling moments when you don't see the picture clearly. 00:21:52:22 - 00:21:56:06 Rev. Brittany You know, Jesus has a way of teaching all the time. 00:21:56:08 - 00:22:18:03 Rev. Hannah Through his life and his death and resurrection. So maybe the question now on, as we live in the post-Easter season, with the grace of the passion that allows us to embrace both-and more. The question may not be: Do I believe 00:22:18:05 - 00:22:33:08 Rev. Hannah in this? Do I have strong enough faith? But is it more like: Am I open to the Christ who offers both peace in times of struggles? 00:22:33:10 - 00:22:45:17 Rev. Brittany Am I open to encounter? Right. Because you say, well sometimes we say, we're open to it but we don't want to deal with it when it hits us in our front door or in the closed doors or on the road. 00:22:45:17 - 00:22:47:11 Rev. Hannah Recognize that. 00:22:47:16 - 00:22:58:18 Rev. Brittany Hello! Hello! Reverend Hannah, I have read this story 1,000,003 times. And today I feel like we did some really good exegetical work in a way that I had not thought about. So thank you. 00:22:58:19 - 00:23:02:07 Rev. Hannah And thank you for being the conversation partner. 00:23:02:09 - 00:23:28:20 Rev. Brittany Of course, we have a couple of questions for you. Three of them: Where in your life do you feel that you have to have everything figured out? Two: What helps you stay connected with God when you are unsure or when you're struggling? And third: When have you felt like Thomas, left out of something meaningful or sacred? 00:23:28:22 - 00:23:47:04 Rev. Brittany We hope that you'll spend some time reflecting on those questions, whether you reflect on them internally, with yourself, or you have some outside dialog. We would love to hear what you're thinking about on this faith journey as we continue to dance together with the grace of the passion. See you soon. Bye. 00:23:47:06 - 00:23:50:08 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.