00:00:00:12 - 00:00:13:06 Rev. Brittany Privilege might seem like it's just a modern conversation, but Scripture has been asking us the same question for centuries: When we have access that others don't, what will we do with it? 00:00:13:08 - 00:00:26:10 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:12 - 00:00:47:18 Rev. Brittany Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany. I'm here with Reverend Hannah. We are continuing in our series, The People of the Passion. This week, we're talking about The Privileged. Our scripture comes from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 27, verses 57 through 61. We're reading from the Common English Bible: “That evening, a man named Joseph came. 00:00:47:23 - 00:01:08:17 Rev. Brittany He was a rich man from Arimathea who had become a disciple of Jesus. He came to Pilate and asked for Jesus's body, and Pilate gave him permission to take it. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had carved out of rock. After he rolled a large stone at the door of the tomb, he went away. 00:01:08:19 - 00:01:15:06 Rev. Brittany Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting in front of the tomb.” Reverend Hannah. 00:01:15:09 - 00:01:16:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:01:16:11 - 00:01:17:21 Rev. Brittany Theologian among us. 00:01:17:23 - 00:01:20:16 Rev. Hannah Ha ha ha ha! 00:01:20:18 - 00:01:24:18 Rev. Brittany What are some of your first facts when you come across this text? 00:01:24:20 - 00:02:01:13 Rev. Hannah This was actually the very first text that I preached on fresh out of the seminary. Oh, so this was the first text I started, like hearing different aspects and looking at different parts of this person's life in a socio economic and political culture. And there are a lot of things. But before we go there, this is a quiet scene after what was really spotlighted, like persecution and death sentence and crucifixion and passing. 00:02:01:15 - 00:02:23:21 Rev. Hannah And then then comes just quiet day. And a man comes to retrieve a criminal's body in this story. And we don't see a lot of privileged people or powerful people positively described in the gospel. But this is one time. 00:02:23:23 - 00:02:24:05 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:02:24:06 - 00:02:44:09 Rev. Hannah That we really see. How this man, Joseph, became a disciple of Jesus Christ and then used his power and privilege. Don't think about can you go to Pilate and talk to him? 00:02:44:11 - 00:02:46:08 Rev. Brittany I mean, I probably could because. 00:02:46:09 - 00:02:48:11 Rev. Hannah But back in this time. No. 00:02:48:12 - 00:02:59:00 Rev. Brittany Of course not. I mean, you have to have status. Like, there has to be a level of relationality. I feel like, I feel like he knew Pilate. 00:02:59:00 - 00:02:59:09 Rev. Hannah Could just walk in. 00:02:59:09 - 00:03:16:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah, you could just like walk in and say like, “Hey, I need to do this thing,” right. What I found interesting and always kind of find interesting about this text is that Joseph of Arimathea is not one of Jesus' 12 disciples that are named, and they are nowhere to be found. Right. 00:03:16:16 - 00:03:18:09 Rev. Hannah And then they all disappear. 00:03:18:09 - 00:03:50:13 Rev. Brittany When they all. They're all gone, right? And it's this man that we have never met before in the text. We don't know anything about Joseph of Arimathea until we meet him here. I mean, we see him in the Gospel of Mark as well. He's in all four of the Gospels a little bit differently in each of them. But in Matthew's Gospel, it's very clear that he was a rich man, which I found really important to distinguish. In the Gospel of Mark, I believe he's known, Joseph of Arimathea is thought to be on the Sanhedrin. 00:03:50:13 - 00:04:10:14 Rev. Brittany Yes. Yeah. And so, he's thought to be a part of the crowd in the judgment that comes to Jesus from the Gospel of Mark. But he was like away from it, like he, his hands were off of it even though he was in the crowd. And this is very ... Matthew has a very different distinction. It doesn't say anything about the Sanhedrin. 00:04:10:14 - 00:04:17:13 Rev. Brittany It doesn't say anything that he was like a religious authority. It instead says that he was a disciple of Jesus. 00:04:17:13 - 00:04:47:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. And also, Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew was written a little later than Mark. Right. And I was wondering if it's—and it was written for the Jewish community. So, a lot of converts from the Jewish community who might have had some privileges, might be in the audience hearing this story. And this may have been their kind of discipleship 00:04:47:11 - 00:04:51:17 Rev. Hannah that Matthew was encouraging them to live up. 00:04:51:19 - 00:05:11:22 Rev. Brittany So when the 12 disciples, they're gone, and I was, you know, it's really easy for me to say “Oh, you were gone!” But I mean, I would have probably been afraid, too. Not probably, I would have been afraid as well, knowing that, you know, this person that I have followed for three years and dedicated my life to his mission, he was just crucified in front of me. 00:05:11:23 - 00:05:49:05 Rev. Brittany If they did that to him, my God, what would they do differently? Right. So it makes sense that they leave. I also thought it was important because in Jewish culture, it's very important to bury the body, right? And, when I was reading in the commentaries and the Jewish Annotated New Testament, it made reference to, Deuteronomy chapter 21, verses 22 through 23, which says: “When someone is convicted of a crime punishable by death and is executed and you hang them on a tree, 00:05:49:06 - 00:06:23:09 Rev. Brittany his corpse must not remain all night upon that tree. You must bury him. You must bury him that same day. For anyone who hung under a tree, anyone hung on a tree is under God’s curse. You must not defile the land that the Lord your God is giving you for possession.” So I think Joseph of Arimathea, and in this Gospel of Matthew, Matthew's using this Jewish law to show what this man did in following the law, right, to ... I don't know. 00:06:23:11 - 00:06:29:16 Rev. Brittany Matthew's Gospel can sometimes be a little like, all of them can have a little anti-Semitism sprinkled in. Yeah, a little bit, along. 00:06:29:16 - 00:06:31:16 Rev. Hannah With some Jewish tradition character. 00:06:31:17 - 00:06:45:18 Rev. Brittany And I think that's really important. Right. That, yes, maybe Joseph of Arimathea just, you know, felt compelled with compassion, but it was also the law. You know, that he was following as well. Yeah. The Jewish law versus the Roman law. 00:06:45:18 - 00:06:46:10 Rev. Hannah 00:06:46:12 - 00:06:50:03 Rev. Brittany And how he had to come together for both of those. 00:06:50:03 - 00:07:08:00 Rev. Hannah Yes. And also, this is part of an important expression of piety under their culture to bury a stranger. Yep. If you're, if you're man of resources and if you're capable. 00:07:08:02 - 00:07:09:10 Rev. Hannah Do good stuff. 00:07:09:12 - 00:07:30:18 Rev. Brittany Correct. Right. And so, I think that, I mean, as I read it ,Joseph of Arimathea, he's one of my favorite people in the scriptures because, like I said, what he does is so audacious to go to Pilate and put himself in proximity to maybe the same faith that Jesus would have had, right, to be so bold. 00:07:30:20 - 00:07:54:08 Rev. Brittany To ask Pilate, like, “I need to bury this man after you all have crucified him.” I think I appreciate his audacity. I also appreciate his compassion. And I appreciate the fact that he uses the resources that he has, the social capital that he has, the money that he has. Right. It's a new tomb, that wasn't going to be cheap. 00:07:54:10 - 00:08:01:15 Rev. Brittany He gets the linen cloth, like all of those things. He uses what he has been given. 00:08:01:17 - 00:08:03:22 Rev. Brittany What he has worked for. 00:08:04:00 - 00:08:05:23 Rev. Brittany To do good. 00:08:06:01 - 00:08:27:19 Rev. Hannah Yes. And not only within his own culture. He's crossing boundaries here. He's crossing boundaries to deal with the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire, to do what the Jewish law requires. And that's a lot of courage. And like going out of your way. 00:08:27:21 - 00:08:58:12 Rev. Brittany And I wonder. I mean, you know, Pilate is far from blameless. Yes, I will say. Okay. I don't like when he says, oh you know “the blood is on your hands.” No, sir. The blood on your hands, too. It's not just the crowd. You allowed it to happen. But I digress. I'm wondering also if Pilate felt empathy, or if he felt shame, or if he felt guilt about what has happened to Jesus. 00:08:58:12 - 00:09:09:10 Rev. Brittany And so, he was more, up for ... to answer the question. 00:09:09:12 - 00:09:23:13 Rev. Brittany That you know, Joseph of Arimathea had asked him. “May I take the body?” Like did... was he filled with like regret that that happened? Or was he just like “Yeah, I don't care what” ... you know. It doesn't say how, you know, what happened. 00:09:23:14 - 00:09:33:11 Rev. Hannah He might have been wondering if this man was really innocent and he had done something wrong out of guilt. Yeah. Regret. And his wife's mourning as well. 00:09:33:12 - 00:10:01:12 Rev. Brittany Right. I was just thinking about, like, his wife's warning about all of that. And again, his sense when he says to the crowd like he's done nothing wrong. Right. You know. “What charge do you bring against him?” So anyways, I was thinking about that, in reference to like, not Pilate is having like a conversion experience, but maybe a bit like maybe he's thinking about this crucifixion. 00:10:01:12 - 00:10:03:08 Rev. Hannah Changing his mind. Yeah. 00:10:03:10 - 00:10:12:05 Rev. Brittany Right. And like feeling a little bit more convicted to do something different. Yeah. I don't know. That's just my theological imagination at work. 00:10:12:05 - 00:10:36:17 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you said that Joseph of Arimathea is one of your favorite disciples. And he was one of my favorite disciples. He is one of my favorite disciples. And whereas we think about disciples, the 12, the Peter, the well known ones. And when we think about discipleship in the church, we think about big work. 00:10:36:19 - 00:11:10:11 Rev. Hannah Preaching, teaching, and doing noticeable work. And getting all the spotlights. But the kind of discipleship that he was embodying was speechless. Like, he used words once when he was dealing with the power, but the rest of it was really quietly done. He took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, laid it in his own tomb, and then carved out the rock. 00:11:10:13 - 00:11:37:11 Rev. Hannah Rolled a large stone. So all those actions, I could imagine reverence and deepest respect for this body. And carrying all those things in between the large crowd and then resurrection event. No one is watching. 00:11:37:12 - 00:11:37:21 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:11:38:01 - 00:11:45:20 Rev. Hannah No one is watching. No one cares. And Jesus would have been resurrected out of desert. 00:11:45:20 - 00:11:48:18 Rev. Brittany Right off the cross. Right. Yes. 00:11:48:20 - 00:12:00:23 Rev. Hannah Of the cross or half eaten? But he was doing it. He was doing it out. There is nothing that he was expecting in return for this action. 00:12:01:01 - 00:12:22:12 Rev. Brittany So kind of makes me think of our folks who work on our grounds, here at the church. The CREW we call them. I think that they do a lot of quiet work that makes sure that the church is well taken care of. And that the, you know, that there's dignity to the our space and how we care for it. 00:12:22:14 - 00:12:36:14 Rev. Brittany It just. Yeah reminds me of like the quiet work that goes unnoticed. But Sunday morning comes and, you know, folks are very excited about what it looks like. But the folks who have done, you know, so much on the back end. 00:12:36:16 - 00:12:58:14 Rev. Hannah It's natural with a lot of other discipleship as well. Things that doesn't get announced. Things that doesn't get spotlighted. Things get done. Behind the scenes are the ones that keeps the community going and connecting people together. And highlighting the resurrection hope. 00:12:58:15 - 00:12:59:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:12:59:01 - 00:12:59:14 Rev. Hannah You know. 00:12:59:16 - 00:13:24:04 Rev. Brittany Absolutely. I think that's most of what discipleship is. That it's not the ways in which you're noticed or the big glamorous spotlight on Sunday. Or, you know, processing down the center aisle with the, you know, opening hymn. But it's really the work that we do quietly. You know, the work that when no one else is around, who are we? 00:13:24:08 - 00:13:28:15 Rev. Brittany You know what are we doing with our lives? You know. 00:13:28:18 - 00:13:42:18 Rev. Hannah In unexpected places, with unexpected people, and without any promises given to you. That's when the real act of discipleship actually shows up. 00:13:42:21 - 00:14:01:06 Rev. Brittany Correct. I think that's the same thing for the Marys who are at the, who are left at the tomb. So, Joseph does his work and he leads them. And then these two women are left at the tomb. And I think that also highlights discipleship as well. 00:14:01:06 - 00:14:01:19 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:14:01:21 - 00:14:08:04 Rev. Brittany Because sometimes it's the act of doing and sometimes it's the act of being. 00:14:08:06 - 00:14:09:02 Rev. Hannah And waiting. 00:14:09:02 - 00:14:11:16 Rev. Brittany And waiting. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 00:14:11:18 - 00:14:24:23 Rev. Hannah And being present. And this is an interesting part of that whole chapter 26, 27, 28. That this quiet moment is part of the continuum. 00:14:25:00 - 00:14:25:09 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:14:25:10 - 00:14:33:17 Rev. Hannah And without those silent moments and little act. The whole event couldn't have been there. 00:14:33:18 - 00:14:34:15 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:14:34:17 - 00:14:36:17 Rev. Hannah As a story of God. 00:14:36:19 - 00:14:38:17 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:14:38:18 - 00:15:05:18 Rev. Brittany One thing I—also, it's really interesting to me. Okay. Go ahead. In this like very interested by this. So, Jesus was crucified with two other people. And I’m very intrigued by what happened to their bodies. You know, did someone take their bodies down? Did the vultures in the sun dry them and eat them? Like you know. Did the Roman government just take them down and throw them out? 00:15:05:18 - 00:15:31:08 Rev. Brittany Like what happened to their bodies? And also, did they not deserve the same kind of dignity that was given to Jesus? Taking Jesus, as you know, our Lord and personal Savior out of the conversation. But just as a man whose body has been crucified hung from the tree, there were two other people there as well. And so what happened in their story? 00:15:31:08 - 00:15:34:17 Rev. Brittany And did they ever get the dignity and death that they didn't get in life? 00:15:34:22 - 00:15:40:17 Rev. Hannah Probably not. And those criminals were often thrown into that. 00:15:40:19 - 00:15:41:20 Rev. Brittany Unmarked grave? 00:15:41:21 - 00:15:50:08 Rev. Hannah Yes. There is a place near Jerusalem that where people drop off, “undignified.” 00:15:50:13 - 00:15:50:20 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:15:50:21 - 00:15:54:11 Rev. Hannah Dead bodies. Had an unfortunate life. 00:15:54:13 - 00:15:54:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:15:54:21 - 00:15:57:05 Rev. Hannah So Jesus would have gone with them. 00:15:57:05 - 00:16:11:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Right. But it's interesting because it says in Deuteronomy that you must take it down and bury it that same day. So it's like even if they were criminals, the law says 00:16:11:21 - 00:16:12:21 Rev. Hannah 00:16:12:23 - 00:16:24:07 Rev. Brittany that they should still be taken down and buried. So, I just thought about like what that looked like, even if they were just buried in an unmarked grave. But what happened? 00:16:24:09 - 00:16:41:10 Rev. Hannah Yes. I thought, I thought ... I'm running my brain again. So, Jewish tradition requires all those bodies to be buried? Yeah. But under Roman rules, those criminals weren't supposed to be buried. 00:16:41:11 - 00:16:41:18 Rev. Brittany Correct. 00:16:41:19 - 00:16:50:20 Rev. Hannah So, there are two cultural and ruling system that's in conflict. And that's where our, your curiosity. 00:16:50:21 - 00:17:08:17 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Right. I just, I always find those two guys interesting because, you know, they're part of the story peripherally. But I would just be interested in like you know. Yeah. What do the apocryphal scriptures have to say about those guys? 00:17:08:19 - 00:17:10:10 Rev. Hannah Yeah. 00:17:10:12 - 00:17:31:06 Rev. Brittany And yeah. So, Joseph, I think it's significant because it highlights, at least for me, it highlights that even though I may ... sometimes you work within systems that don't always value people. 00:17:31:08 - 00:17:36:23 Rev. Brittany That doesn't excuse you from doing 00:17:37:01 - 00:17:54:03 Rev. Brittany the thing that God calls us to do. And that is to care and to bring dignity to folks who have not otherwise had it. And so, I appreciate Joseph of Arimathea because, like I, said he was courageous. He was audacious. He was bold. But he was faithful and he was compassionate more than anything. 00:17:54:05 - 00:17:58:20 Rev. Hannah Yeah. But he also had the privilege for sure. 00:17:58:22 - 00:17:59:16 Rev. Brittany For sure. 00:17:59:16 - 00:18:01:15 Rev. Hannah But he knew how to use it. 00:18:01:17 - 00:18:42:05 Rev. Brittany Because I think that's the point of it. Right. If you have privilege, then you have to do something with it. Like, in order to bring someone else forward. Marian Wright Edelman has a quote that says, “Service is the rent you pay for living on this earth.” Right. And so, that you, your privilege, isn't just for you. Like the things that you have, whether it's education privilege, or money privilege, or cultural white privilege, or, you know, privilege of speaking multiple languages, or privileges of having, you know, access to a lot of money. Whatever it is, whatever you have acquired in this life, should be used to make the life of someone else better. 00:18:42:05 - 00:18:56:06 Rev. Hannah Yes. And so, I think Matthew was very intentional about putting the privilege aspect into this Joseph of Arimathea. Whereas the other gospels do not have that. 00:18:56:08 - 00:19:18:14 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Because I think Matthew's just he wants the audience, the readers, to know that, like, to whom much is given, much is required. And it's going to cost you something. And it may be dangerous. You might, you know, lose friends. You might lose a little social capital. But at the end of the day, it's what's required of you. 00:19:18:16 - 00:19:37:05 Rev. Brittany Because your, your privilege, isn't — your status, your social capital, whatever — isn't just for your benefit. And it's not just for your family's benefit. It's for the benefit of the larger community so that God's compassion might continue to show up in the world over and over and over again. 00:19:37:06 - 00:20:08:19 Rev. Hannah Yes. And I'm also assuming that Matthew's community had become a lot more diverse than the first part of Matthew's Gospel. Yeah. Not the fisherman, not the carpenter type of people. People of affluence and people of privileges had become part of their community, where they share their resources and power to improve others’ lives and make others’ lives to be enjoyed with some dignity. 00:20:08:20 - 00:20:13:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Very thankful for this scripture. 00:20:13:18 - 00:20:24:14 Rev. Hannah And for, thankful for the conversation. Do you have anything else to add or? No. Okay. Are we ready to hear our questions with our audience? 00:20:24:15 - 00:20:25:04 Rev. Brittany I think so. 00:20:25:09 - 00:21:03:15 Rev. Hannah So, we enjoyed having this conversation and we invite our people, listeners and viewers, to consider these questions: What doors are open to you that may be closed to others? What risks come with using privilege for the sake of others? How can privilege be used to restore dignity rather than reinforce power? These are great questions. So, I hope you enjoy these questions either by yourself, or with other friends, or around people that you share your faith with. 00:21:03:17 - 00:21:07:12 Rev. Hannah Thanks for listening and we will see you next week. 00:21:07:14 - 00:21:09:03 Rev. Brittany Bye. 00:21:09:05 - 00:21:25:02 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. 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