00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:21 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:15:23 - 00:00:42:01 Rev. Brittany Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany, and I'm here with Reverend Trudy. We are continuing in Our Money Story. This is week three and this week we're talking about what it looks like to reimagine. Our scripture comes from the book of Leviticus, chapter 25, verses 8 through 12: "You shall count off seven weeks of years, seven times seven years. 00:00:42:07 - 00:01:15:21 Rev. Brittany So that period of seven weeks of years gives 49 years. Then you shall have the trumpets sounded loud, and on the 10th day of the seventh month, on the day of Atonement, you shall have the trumpets sounded throughout all of your land. And you shall hallow the 50th year, and you shall proclaim liberty throughout the land, and to all its inhabitants it shall be a jubilee for you, and you shall return every one of you to your property, and every one of you to your family. 00:01:15:23 - 00:01:37:08 Rev. Brittany That 50th year shall be a jubilee for you. You shall not sow or reap the after growth or harvest the unpruned vines, for it is a jubilee. It shall be holy to you. You shall eat only what the field itself produces." Reverend Trudy. Jubilee. 00:01:37:08 - 00:01:39:18 Rev. Trudy Jubilee! 00:01:39:20 - 00:01:56:13 Rev. Brittany I've always heard of Jubilee, in church of course. And it's essentially just a big celebration that, we at least growing up in my church, we called most of our celebrations like a jubilee celebration. Okay, as a special kind of anniversary time. 00:01:56:17 - 00:02:06:08 Rev. Trudy Okay. Did it have the same kind of practice that we see in this scripture passage of debt and recovery? 00:02:06:08 - 00:02:21:13 Rev. Brittany Was usually around money or some type of like stewardship, a kind of jubilee celebration in my Baptist church. Okay. I don't necessarily remember anything about debt being repaid, but it was, I think, the church's way of trying to pay off its debt. 00:02:21:15 - 00:02:23:23 Rev. Trudy Oh, I see okay, okay, okay. 00:02:23:23 - 00:02:26:11 Rev. Brittany From what we did. Sure. Right. Mixing it up. 00:02:26:11 - 00:02:32:08 Rev. Trudy Well there you go. Well, it's funny because I don't remember hearing about Jubilee at all. 00:02:32:09 - 00:02:33:01 Rev. Brittany Oh, really? 00:02:33:01 - 00:02:43:07 Rev. Trudy At all. I mean, we might have called the choir the Jubilee Choir. Right? But, nothing at all like this is saying. 00:02:43:07 - 00:02:43:15 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:02:43:20 - 00:03:01:18 Rev. Trudy And I first encountered this in seminary, and I thought, that is so cool. Right. Yeah. As I'm an idealist. Right. So. Yeah. Right. So we want things to be absolutely ideal and this is it. Right. Yeah. This is it. 00:03:01:23 - 00:03:13:04 Rev. Brittany Well we see some of that like Reverend Hannah and I talked about that last week. A bit with this seven number. Right. And if you think about our economic system with, like, bankruptcy. 00:03:13:04 - 00:03:14:00 Rev. Trudy Right, right. 00:03:14:00 - 00:03:22:23 Rev. Brittany Yeah, yeah. If you're in that for seven years or something stays on your credit report for seven years, that kind of so you can see how if you wait. 00:03:22:23 - 00:03:23:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:03:23:14 - 00:03:25:14 Rev. Brittany Like they extrapolate a little bit. 00:03:25:14 - 00:03:29:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Okay. Well not enough not. 00:03:29:02 - 00:03:30:00 Rev. Brittany Certainly not enough. 00:03:30:00 - 00:03:54:06 Rev. Trudy Not to the extent that we're talking here. You know, Leviticus is nobody's favorite Bible book. Am I right? Am I right? Is that, you know? Yeah. Unless you want to go to sleep quickly. There's a lot to it. And this passage is one of ten chapters, 17 through 27. Yeah. That they call the holiness codes. 00:03:54:07 - 00:04:27:21 Rev. Trudy Right. And this is part of the law, right? That is trying to separate Israel and the Jewish people at the time from their neighbors. Right, right. And so, this holiness code really was the law that they needed to follow. The whole ten chapters of it. Right. And it was this mixture of contradiction, I think. And I think it was probably a moment where, of renewal. 00:04:27:23 - 00:04:55:06 Rev. Trudy Right. Because it is about what's going to set Israel apart in the Promised Land. It's a code not just for what happens in the sanctuary or in the temple, but what might happen with the land and the people. And it's a code for ritual and personal contact. Right? Right. It's ethical behaviors. 00:04:55:06 - 00:05:32:22 Rev. Trudy It's a responsibility of the priests and the people. And this holiness code. I think one of the interesting things about this passage, or the idea of Jubilee, is that it's dynamic, right? You can be holy and then you can fall out of holiness. You can do all the right things. So it takes practice, it takes vigilance, it takes constantly reminding yourself that it is about, you know, not defrauding your neighbor and not getting a leprous disease or, you know, I mean, it's this whole bunch. 00:05:33:02 - 00:05:42:19 Rev. Trudy I mean, it's a lot of chapters with a lot of holiness codes, but it is really what is to set them apart. 00:05:42:21 - 00:05:46:17 Rev. Brittany You know, the holiness code really stresses me a bit. 00:05:46:17 - 00:05:47:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:05:47:03 - 00:06:18:14 Rev. Brittany Because it's preparing, it's almost like this preparation at least in this piece because they're like ... God is telling Moses what is to come when they get to the Promised Land. Almost is, you know, they're very prescriptive, but it's also this preparation for what is to come when you get the land. So when I think about, you know, this idea of the seventh year having a rest, right, for the land, and then that 50th year is a celebration of all of those seven times seven times, you know? 00:06:18:14 - 00:06:23:03 Rev. Brittany Right. But they haven't yet gotten 00:06:23:03 - 00:06:41:12 Rev. Brittany to the way, you know, so they're imagining what this could possibly look like, right. Because they have no idea. They not they're going to a place that they know. Yeah. A place that they've heard about and preparing them for how to steward the land and how to take care of the land. And this particular holiness code. Right. 00:06:41:13 - 00:06:48:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And not other. Yeah. That's right. Not just the land, but each other. And it really is different from Egypt. Very, very different. 00:06:48:10 - 00:07:11:19 Rev. Brittany Very. Yeah. Because essentially in Egypt they were enslaved generation after generation after generation. That's right. And in this text they're talking about as it goes on later in this chapter about releasing those who had been enslaved, right, so that they might go home to their families, that. That's right. That was not heard of in Egypt. It was generation after generation after generation. 00:07:11:19 - 00:07:21:20 Rev. Brittany Otherwise they would have made their way to the Promised Land seven times that, you know, right. How many years, 50 years before that and 50 years before that and think right before that, right? Yeah. 00:07:21:20 - 00:08:04:10 Rev. Trudy Right. Yeah, yeah. It's freedom for the indentured servants, the slaves, the debts were forgiven. Yeah. People got their land back, you know, and return to their land if they weren't there. And even the land lay fallow for a time. Right. That is a reset, right. As you and Hannah talked about, I think the one of the things that, as you said, this Jubilee is the accumulation of all of these celebrations and a reminder of just how significant and transformative that kind of forgiveness 00:08:04:12 - 00:08:07:11 Rev. Trudy is for the community. 00:08:07:13 - 00:08:26:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Because it essentially says that you don't get to stay, like you were saying, in one spot forever. That's right. Like your mistakes or your debts or whatever it is, is not a defining part for the rest of your life that you shouldn't be held captive to whatever you have been labeled with or indebted with. 00:08:26:08 - 00:09:02:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah, yeah, I ... that just ... that my imagination goes wild thinking about that. Yeah. Just to imagine what it would look like if there was no desire or. No. I don't know what exactly. It's hard to put into words because for me it's just so, so beautiful. The idea that there would be nobody who has any needs, there would be nobody who needs to beg on the street corner, nobody who needs to sleep in the doorway or on a park bench there, you know, nobody would be addicted and not have care. 00:09:02:08 - 00:09:19:08 Rev. Trudy Nobody would feel shame about any of that. Because there was always going to be that relief every seven years and every 50 years it would be a celebration of whether or not we learned the lesson. Right. 00:09:19:13 - 00:09:45:02 Rev. Brittany That makes me think about mass incarceration in this country. And the idea that so many people are labeled for the rest of their lives. Like if you have a felony then you are a felon. Right. But what would it look like if folks had an opportunity to be redeemed. Right. And have this, you know, title stripped from them so that they are no longer carrying the chain of what their mistake or their past. 00:09:45:02 - 00:09:46:18 Rev. Brittany You know what? What does that look like? 00:09:46:18 - 00:09:47:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:47:06 - 00:09:49:14 Rev. Brittany Yeah, it's pretty amazing for me to think about. 00:09:49:15 - 00:09:51:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Clearly think about that. 00:09:51:19 - 00:10:00:10 Rev. Brittany I can and it's also like such a stark. Yeah difference from the reality that it's mind boggling a little bit. 00:10:00:10 - 00:10:01:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:01:15 - 00:10:03:09 Rev. Brittany Wow. What would that look like? 00:10:03:10 - 00:10:30:08 Rev. Trudy It really ... we'll come back to that. I want to point out that I kind of had to giggle as I was reading through some commentaries about this passage, because apparently there was a big dispute as to whether or not it was the 49th or the 50th year. And eventually, current interpretation says that that that Jubilee, it really is only observed when the Jewish people are in the land of Israel. 00:10:30:08 - 00:10:58:00 Rev. Trudy And so, it feels like one of those human nature kinds of things where we always find a way out. Especially the people with the money or with the means and all of that. Right. And that's what struck me when I read this again to hear every seven years you would think that you're forgiven once and everything's laid out, you would think, okay, let's just keep it like this. 00:10:58:01 - 00:11:20:06 Rev. Trudy But every seven years you got to do it again and again, because there will always be, as you and Hannah talked about last time, there will always be people who will take advantage, who will earn more or hoard more and not give or not take care of. And there will always be people who will live a little bit differently and have different gifts and all of that stuff. 00:11:20:06 - 00:11:45:02 Rev. Trudy There's always need to have somebody, to below, I mean, and somebody above in the hierarchy and the wealth distribution of wealth. Right. It seems that has to be the way it is. But every seven years, you get a taste of it. Every seven years you get the opportunity to say, there is not a poor person among us, right? 00:11:45:02 - 00:12:14:08 Rev. Trudy Right. Every seven years you have the opportunity for a second chance for if you have been in debt or if you were indentured as a servant, or if you lost your land and you did something stupid, or if you had too much, you had to figure out what it looks like and what it feels like to care about somebody, a neighbor, so much that you will give some of your resources to help them, right. 00:12:14:10 - 00:12:32:00 Rev. Trudy Come above their circumstances. And I think that opportunity every seven years is one that benefits both the wealthy. And the poor, even though you might not think it would benefit the wealthy. 00:12:32:02 - 00:12:53:13 Rev. Brittany I think it absolutely benefits the wealthy. Right. Because it reminds us, I think the whole point of this, is to remind us and the Israelites at this time, that all of this belongs to God. Yeah, right. This land, the resources of the land, the vegetation of the land, all of it belongs to God. And so, we are just really stewards. 00:12:53:13 - 00:13:13:22 Rev. Brittany We are renting essentially. I like to think, you know, we are taking care of this land that we have been, you know, steward with to take care of and take charge of, not charge, but to take care of. Right. I think it's a reminder to us that none of this is ours and that it all belongs to God. 00:13:13:22 - 00:13:20:07 Rev. Brittany And so, if it belongs to God, then it really does belong to us as a people. Not just. 00:13:20:11 - 00:13:21:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:13:21:05 - 00:13:21:23 Rev. Brittany The billionaires. 00:13:21:23 - 00:13:51:02 Rev. Trudy And to have it built into the fabric of the community, the society that they're going to be living in to at least in this idealist right version. Right, right. I mean, there are plenty of times for we in our culture to have that encounter. It's not necessarily built into our culture, but there are times when, you know, you see somebody who has gotten cancer and said, why have I not been taking more vacation? 00:13:51:02 - 00:14:01:14 Rev. Trudy Why, if I've been working too hard. Every time you, you know, go into your closet, you wonder, why on earth do you have so many clothes? Sorry, that got a little personal. 00:14:01:17 - 00:14:06:12 Rev. Brittany It did get a little personal! And I also do think that, I do think that to myself. 00:14:06:14 - 00:14:39:17 Rev. Trudy Right. But or, you know, or time passes and you begin to clean out cupboards or whatever, and you think, why do I still have this? Why did I buy it in the first place? Why have I lived the way of accumulation, of striving for things that really don't matter? And this is the opportunity that God builds in to the ideal society that God imagines that regular check in, you know. 00:14:39:19 - 00:14:40:12 Rev. Brittany Resetting. 00:14:40:12 - 00:15:19:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. And if we really took that resetting and the lesson of that resetting seriously, we might then be able to say, yeah, you know, I don't need to buy that much. And I don't know if you ... well, it feels good to help somebody. Yeah. Right. It just feels good to help somebody. I remember when I was still married, my husband won the call in a prize from a radio contest, and we got a surprise $10,000. 00:15:19:05 - 00:15:28:12 Rev. Trudy And it was at the point where we couldn't think of anything we really needed. Although we did take the girls to Disney World. 00:15:28:14 - 00:15:33:06 Rev. Brittany I figured there was a Disney trip in there somewhere. Like you seem like Disney people. 00:15:33:07 - 00:15:53:09 Rev. Trudy But the rest of it, we gave to Interfaith Hospitality Network, who was taking care of families who were unhoused. And we took gave some to Heifer Project International because we wanted to help a global world have food. And it felt so good to be able to do that. 00:15:53:11 - 00:15:54:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:15:54:18 - 00:16:55:17 Rev. Trudy It does, but this is more than just giving money. This is, you know, standing in front of somebody and saying you owe me $10,000. But I'm going to forgive that. You don't anymore. Right. It is much more relational. And when I have been in conversation with folks who are living on the streets or who are down on their luck, I mean really get to know them, there is no them and us. Some of my best, excuse me, memories were working alongside Break Bread, the meal ministry we did in Colorado that brought together people from all walks of life for a free meal every 00:16:55:17 - 00:17:38:04 Rev. Trudy Saturday night. And we sat like a family around a round table, and we got to know each other. And it was so beautiful to understand the pain of young people who were finding themselves on the streets, and addicted and not loved and so many bags to carry in terms of the baggage inside as well as the ones on their back, you know. And to see poor widows that were in section eight housing and couldn't find anybody really didn't have anybody to care for them. 00:17:38:06 - 00:17:55:17 Rev. Trudy And the only meal they had with other people was our Saturday night meal. Right. And to see a homeless person and an elderly woman talk together and find community in that. Wow. That's a little jubilee for me. 00:17:55:18 - 00:17:57:01 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:17:57:03 - 00:17:57:13 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:17:57:19 - 00:18:10:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah. I mean it's a beautiful celebration of God bringing together and restoring. Yeah. I think that's what Jubilee means to like to renew and to restore and to reset. Yeah. Right. Yeah. 00:18:10:23 - 00:18:22:07 Rev. Trudy It is really hard to imagine that on a large scale. Right. I don't know what it would take to be able to really practice Jubilee. 00:18:22:09 - 00:18:25:02 Rev. Brittany Well I think that that's what you were saying that. 00:18:25:06 - 00:18:26:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:18:26:05 - 00:18:38:05 Rev. Brittany It's easy for us to find ways to not practice it. Yeah. Right. It's easy for us to say oh that's too much. It's, that's, they didn't really do it that way. You know, this is an ideal that was set up. It's really easy for us to. 00:18:38:08 - 00:18:39:02 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:18:39:04 - 00:18:59:15 Rev. Brittany Just, you know, move our way out of it. But I think as we talk about imagination, I was telling you a few weeks ago that I was like, hit me in the face, but, like, I don't really think I'm as imaginative as I once was. I think that I have intellectualized my imagination so much by saying, oh, that couldn't happen. 00:18:59:21 - 00:19:24:23 Rev. Brittany So then, you know, I use intellect to like, assuage my imagination. And this is like really allowing me to think more deeply about what can I and envision and imagine, right? Even if it doesn't come to pass as I envisioned or imagined, the idea of imagining allows us to do that holy, that holy work of possibility with God. 00:19:24:23 - 00:19:26:03 Rev. Brittany I think, you know. 00:19:26:04 - 00:19:48:13 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. I, it's hard not to kind of go to easy solutions. It's hard to not to, be overwhelmed as you're trying to figure it out. But I think. 00:19:48:15 - 00:20:20:16 Rev. Trudy I yeah, I don't know, I ... everything we've always heard is that it's all about the grassroots movement coming up. And I do think that there are a lot more, there's a lot more power. And willpower is probably the main thing with grass roots. Than the people at the top, the 1% or whatever. Right. 00:20:20:16 - 00:20:31:19 Rev. Trudy Who are calling all the shots. And I think we're seeing some of that politically these days. But at the same time, it still feels like we still aren't making a difference. 00:20:31:19 - 00:20:53:08 Rev. Brittany Right. Yeah. But I think that's, I think that's how the systems work to squelch the imagination. Yeah. Right. I think that the ... if you can't imagine a different way of being, then you can't realize a different way of being, you can't bring it into action. And so that's what keeps us stifled I think. Right. I'm one, I'm including myself in this. 00:20:53:08 - 00:21:15:18 Rev. Brittany Like for sure. I thinking about the mass incarceration. Right. And what would it look like? I never thought about it in this way until like in literally until we just sat in this chair and I'm like, oh yeah, I'm asking, what would it look like? Right? But it's hard for me to believe that it's possible, right? Because I've intellectualized all that's around me. 00:21:15:18 - 00:21:33:08 Rev. Brittany You know what I mean? While society says this and we've seen this happen and this and this happened in history tells us this, like, I can do all of that, but I think that's a different set of work that God's asking us to do versus this jubilee work of reimagining. In my mind, does that make sense? 00:21:33:10 - 00:21:52:01 Rev. Brittany I feel like there's a time and a place for the intellectual side of, you know, what's happening and the realism and all of that. But I also think that if we don't invite ourselves to imagine with God, then we will always be in a situation. Yeah. Where are people who are captive. 00:21:52:02 - 00:22:15:07 Rev. Trudy You know, there is something really powerful to think that this is the law coming from God as the people are getting into a new place to be their own. Right. It's something powerful to think that this is how God imagines it. Right, right. And if anybody would know what could happen, I would think it would be God. 00:22:15:07 - 00:22:16:08 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:22:16:10 - 00:22:54:00 Rev. Trudy And so, why do we let ourselves not think too hard on some of those things. And I think about all the different issues that I care about that I want an ideal solution to. We honestly ... we feed into the way things are or are not. And I think it starts there. Right, right. It starts there with understanding the impact that I have and the choices that I have and the agency that I can offer to making things better. 00:22:54:02 - 00:23:11:06 Rev. Trudy It is down to this. It's a personal ethic. As well as the ritual. Right. That creates the people. That is the example for the rest of the land. Right. For the rest of the world. 00:23:11:08 - 00:23:31:05 Rev. Brittany I think about, like, you just were with your grandchildren. Right. And they have these vivid imaginations. Yes. Nothing has told them different. Right. They see ... kids say these things and I'm always reminded of this. Right. Because kids are the ones who remind us, like, it doesn't have to be this way. 00:23:31:06 - 00:23:31:23 Rev. Trudy That's for sure. 00:23:32:00 - 00:23:39:00 Rev. Brittany We created it to be this way. And so we have been conditioned. We get, you know, as you continue to mature in life. 00:23:39:02 - 00:23:39:11 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:39:15 - 00:23:47:03 Rev. Brittany Your imagination is hindered more and more. And you were made smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller until you're just another cog in the wheel. 00:23:47:23 - 00:23:57:10 Rev. Brittany And you have no real imagination. And I think about myself, even in divinity school, fired up and ready to go. And now I'm like, girl, what? 00:23:57:10 - 00:23:57:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:23:57:21 - 00:24:18:07 Rev. Brittany That was, you know, naive or whatever, but it was like. But you were, you had the ... what is it? Audacity, I think, to imagine. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think kids have the audacity to imagine and to create and to think about things differently. Yeah. And we've lost our audacity. Yeah. 00:24:18:07 - 00:24:47:20 Rev. Trudy I think that's the theme for this week. And we're talking about our money story here at the church. So. So what is the audacious dream we want to fund? Right. We what is it that we are doing that is so special in the world that we want people to be able to divert some of their funds to our church so that we can get this audacious dream up off the ground. 00:24:48:01 - 00:25:11:19 Rev. Brittany Well, one of them, I think, I mean, I see such fruit from Dream School of the Arts. Right. And all that. That's an imagination, you know, coming to life. I think about affordable housing in a city where the ... it's getting harder and harder to live in San Diego. Right. And so what would it look like if our church was able to provide affordable housing for folks on our campus? 00:25:11:20 - 00:25:25:10 Rev. Brittany I mean, that is audacious. Yeah. And we can tell ourselves it'll never happen. You know, people have tried to swelter our dream many times, but there's something about imagining it with God that tells me that it is possible. 00:25:25:11 - 00:25:49:11 Rev. Trudy That's right. So the Dream School of the Arts, we've got, we've got folks who are in underserved elementary schools. Students, Dreamers, we call them, that come and experience community. And as it should be. Right. And you walk into that space and you sense the warmth and the acceptance that these kids offer to you as a newcomer coming in. 00:25:49:17 - 00:26:15:17 Rev. Trudy But they have learned that. I mean, I'm not, I don't mean to belittle their families in any way, but it has just been strengthened, their value and other people's values in that community. That's a small thing. That could be like this seven year after seven year after seven year thing. That makes a difference, because in seven years they're going to grow up and they're going to be teenagers and they're going to be going to college. 00:26:15:20 - 00:27:00:11 Rev. Trudy Maybe you're doing whatever, and they are going to remember that experience, right. You mentioned affordable housing. I had a meeting just the other day about that. We are learning so much. There's low income housing, there's affordable housing, there's market rate housing. There's all sorts of choices as to what you can actually build here. And I was I learned something that a lot of the affordable housing initiatives that are happening, in the city of San Diego, in the state, perhaps, really is trying they're trying to make it not be 100% affordable housing or 100% low income, but mixed incomes, because that's where you change people's lives. 00:27:00:12 - 00:27:20:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. The poor are connected to people who might have networks that they can get in. That's, you know, how do you get a job or two, you know. Right. And then the wealthy people have a different understanding of what it means to be poor, because their neighbors are the ones who have the stories of difficulty that they can hear on that. 00:27:20:10 - 00:27:22:22 Rev. Brittany And it's no longer them over there. 00:27:23:00 - 00:27:23:21 Rev. Trudy I, us. 00:27:23:23 - 00:27:28:15 Rev. Brittany That's my neighbor as a person. They just, you know, those people? Yeah. 00:27:28:16 - 00:27:44:03 Rev. Trudy I will have to say, I also know that we had the whole white flight. And the wealthy flight happens in neighborhoods. So, again, that's why we need this every seven years too. Because we still go back to some old habits. 00:27:44:03 - 00:27:44:20 Rev. Brittany Always. 00:27:44:22 - 00:28:22:05 Rev. Trudy But, yeah, I think about, what's special in our church. I think the fact that we are very diverse in our congregation and we are more progressive in our message is something that doesn't fly with the loud megaphone of Christian nationalists, or of white supremacy. All of those other things. I think it's really, really important for us to keep putting out this good news for all people. 00:28:22:06 - 00:28:24:21 Rev. Trudy That's something that I'm very proud of. 00:28:24:23 - 00:28:33:05 Rev. Brittany Same. I couldn't do the work if I didn't think that we were talking about all of God's people. That's right. No matter. That's who you are or where you come from. 00:28:33:05 - 00:28:34:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:28:34:23 - 00:28:36:21 Rev. Brittany So would be a waste of time. 00:28:36:23 - 00:29:15:18 Rev. Trudy So, you know, I guess the bottom line is, we may not forgive debts. The Jubilee is not built into our culture. But there are pockets. Yeah. And there are churches. There are people. There are organizations. There are nonprofits. There are people who are making this imaginative world of grace, of fellowship. 00:29:15:20 - 00:29:40:20 Rev. Trudy Brotherhood. Sisterhood. All of us connected there. Working on it. And maybe that's the message we need to look for. And that's the ground roots. That ground roots. Grass roots. That might actually move into something that could affect the world. 00:29:40:22 - 00:29:58:09 Rev. Brittany I mean, I think all change starts with small steps and that happens by us imagining, taking the time to imagine with God. Really. Yeah. I think imagination is a beautiful gift that we forget exists to us. 00:29:58:09 - 00:30:16:10 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. You can come visit my grandchildren any time you want. A little dose of imagination. Okay. There you go. Thank you for your conversation around this. I still get excited about the idea of Jubilee. 00:30:16:12 - 00:30:18:00 Rev. Brittany We have a lot to be excited about, I think. 00:30:18:00 - 00:30:44:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. We hope you've enjoyed our perspectives. We hope you have or are forming your own perspective. And to help with that, we have a couple of questions for you. And we encourage you to get together with friends or other Patreon members on our Patreon channel. And just share some of your ideas. We'd love to hear from you, but these are the questions we invite you to ponder. 00:30:44:02 - 00:31:12:07 Rev. Trudy The first one is: What would you imagine if Jubilee was practiced? What would you do if all of your debts would be forgiven? And what do you think might surprise you if you were to learn more about someone who's living on the streets? Yeah. Things we have touched upon. You've heard what we think. We'd love to hear what you think. 00:31:12:09 - 00:31:47:23 Rev. Trudy Thank you so much for joining us. We'll see you next time. Bye. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org