00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:17 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:14:18 - 00:00:30:08 Rev. Hannah Hi everyone. Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah. I'm here in the studio with Reverend Brittany, who just returned back from her Sankofa Pilgrimage, so I'm sure she has many things to say this week. 00:00:30:09 - 00:01:01:09 Rev. Hannah In this episode, we are going to cover John, chapter 16, verses 12 - 15, with the title called Many Things to Say. This is not a not connected to any other series, but this is a stand alone episode, so I hope you enjoy it. And the scripture goes like this, Jesus saying: "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 00:01:01:09 - 00:01:27:11 Rev. Hannah When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. 00:01:27:13 - 00:01:40:12 Rev. Hannah For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you." Gosh, he's saying it's mine a few times here. 00:01:40:12 - 00:01:47:06 Rev. Brittany Right. Jesus has a very high possession ... spirit ... in the Gospel of John. 00:01:47:08 - 00:01:49:22 Rev. Hannah Very strong tone. Yeah. Right here. 00:01:50:00 - 00:01:52:05 Rev. Brittany I am. This is mine. 00:01:52:05 - 00:01:53:03 Rev. Hannah Yes. Yeah. 00:01:54:04 - 00:02:19:12 Rev. Hannah And also think about the writing of the Gospel of John happening later than the other three gospels, maybe two if not three generations afterwards. So they still need to be reminded of Jesus in his teaching. In this Post-Resurrection community where the real life is almost forgotten. So. 00:02:19:14 - 00:02:21:07 Rev. Brittany And his authority, right. 00:02:21:09 - 00:02:54:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. And so, a Greek term is introduced here: "parákletos." Which is translated is "paraclete." Yes. Yeah. And the original meaning was to be called alongside. Right. So, now this community is facing to be called alongside the Holy Spirit to abide in Jesus' will. Jesus will continue to abide in you through this Paraclete. 00:02:54:15 - 00:02:57:02 Rev. Brittany Paraclete. The Holy Spirit. 00:02:57:04 - 00:02:58:18 Rev. Hannah Parákletos. 00:02:58:19 - 00:03:06:05 Rev. Brittany See. Look at you. You know, I can barely speak English, girl, but go ahead, go ahead. Greek. 00:03:06:07 - 00:03:20:10 Rev. Hannah So, there aren't any vacuum, after Jesus left, in the community of believers. And that's the role of the Spirit, right? So, do you want to talk about what it does and how it works? 00:03:20:12 - 00:03:37:04 Rev. Brittany Well, I think that in many ways, like Jesus knows that he's about to die, right? He knows that he's going to be leaving these disciples. These are, you know, Jesus talking to the disciples in this text. Right? And Jesus knows that he's going to be leaving. And I don't know if you had this feeling maybe as a mom. 00:03:37:04 - 00:03:52:18 Rev. Brittany Right. But I know my grandma would do it. If she had to leave, she would try to give me something to comfort me. To know that, like, you know, hold this bear close to your heart. And you know, when I'm not there, right, as a comfort to know that I'm not just leaving you to yourself. Right? 00:03:52:18 - 00:03:55:15 Rev. Hannah Jeewon has Hannah Junior doll, you know. 00:03:55:15 - 00:04:25:03 Rev. Brittany Right. I think we all need that sense of comfort to know that when people that we love or care about, that whatever happens, even in death or you know, them going down the street or going on vacation, that they're still with us, right? And so, to me, the Holy Spirit is a gift to us all because it is a comfort to us knowing that it is God's way of still being so close to us, even when we don't feel like we can see God, or that Jesus is right there with us, like he was with the disciples at one point, you know? 00:04:25:03 - 00:04:40:22 Rev. Brittany Yes, like he's broken bread with them and he's like shared time and space with them and they've, you know, healed the sick and, you know, being persecuted, you know, and all of these things have happened. And now he's like, "Yeah, I'm about to leave." Whaaaat?! And I have abandonment issues a little bit. So I don't like, you know what I mean? 00:04:40:22 - 00:04:43:16 Rev. Brittany "Jesus, what do you mean you have to leave? Take me with you." 00:04:43:16 - 00:05:10:12 Rev. Hannah I knew you were going to say that. Yes. So, to reduce the separation anxiety among the disciples. Right. This is the gift that Jesus was offering to all. You just use the phrase "a gift to us." Yeah, it's a gift to a community. Yes. Not to you personally. It's not a personal possession. It's not your internal feel good family spirit. 00:05:10:12 - 00:05:19:11 Rev. Hannah It's a gift to the whole community to make the separation anxiety a little more bearable. 00:05:19:13 - 00:05:38:14 Rev. Brittany And to remind you, right, that like ... not only are you not alone, but there's still work for you to do as well. And you don't get to just throw in the towel because I'm not there to give you step by step instructions. Right. Like when my grandma died, I was like, "Oh my God, what am I going to do?" 00:05:38:14 - 00:05:43:19 Rev. Brittany "How am I going to like ... ?" I would always call her for advice and it's like, you have 31 years of advice. 00:05:44:09 - 00:05:45:16 Rev. Brittany Pull it up. 00:05:45:18 - 00:05:47:02 Rev. Hannah Recall it. Yes. 00:05:47:02 - 00:06:00:01 Rev. Brittany Use it. Right. Do something with it. You can't just use her as the emotional crutch every time. You know like you can still rely on her strength. But now it's your responsibility to do something with it. And that's what I think the Holy Spirit does. Right. 00:06:00:01 - 00:06:28:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that's why Jesus must have been a little more authoritative in this wordings than any other places. Right? "I have many things to say." "And the Holy Spirit will declare to you what is mine." "And what is mine is coming from the Father." Right? So the authority of people, of those presence. 00:06:28:13 - 00:06:54:22 Rev. Hannah That these disciples in there, just like your grandma and her community, these people are looking up to Jesus for guidance, right? Jesus is bringing his from the Father or God. Right. And then he's passing that on to the Spirit. And the Spirit will come to you and you have to carry that torch. 00:06:55:00 - 00:07:18:23 Rev. Brittany And you have to be able to, you know, know my truth above what others claim is the truth, right? The truth of the world versus the truth of my Spirit. Right. And sometimes I think it's hard for us to discern the two. Yes. Right. And so, that, again to me, is the gift of the Spirit, that it gives us a little bit more discernment if we're open to listening to what that truth looks like. 00:07:19:03 - 00:07:27:01 Rev. Brittany Right. And sometimes that truth doesn't necessarily make us feel good. 00:07:27:03 - 00:07:44:01 Rev. Hannah Yes. Hello, somebody! It shakes our ground. And you know he will guide you into all the truth which is not always easy to bear. Right. But the word "guide" ... I'm so sorry for bringing. 00:07:44:03 - 00:07:44:18 Rev. Brittany Why?? 00:07:44:18 - 00:08:16:00 Rev. Hannah Greek again. "Hodegeo" is the word that John used. And that's a compound of two words "hodos" and "agō." Meaning "lead in the way," which was only used in the Psalms, the Septuagint version of the Psalms. Yeah. The Greek version, to refer to God, a little instructional God, like shepherding, guiding stuff. 00:08:16:02 - 00:08:45:11 Rev. Hannah And when the shepherd guides the sheep, it's not always "Sweet baby, go this way, go that way." So I think the Spirit is playing the way. And that's how Jesus described ... "Paraclete?" Yeah. I can't speak English. Paraclete. Paraclete. Yeah. And in a way that will guide the community of believers into faithful behavior. 00:08:45:11 - 00:08:46:04 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:08:46:06 - 00:08:50:22 Rev. Hannah It's when your behaviors are corrected. It's not easy. 00:08:51:00 - 00:08:52:01 Rev. Brittany It is not easy. 00:08:52:01 - 00:08:59:18 Rev. Hannah And your way of life, when your way of choices are being challenged. Not easy, not easy. 00:09:00:00 - 00:09:15:16 Rev. Brittany And when you have to confront the fact that what you thought was truth wasn't right, that's a that's a tough pill to swallow. Right. To believe that x squared plus b squared equals c squared your whole life, and then finding out that that's not the right equation, that you've been using the wrong one. 00:09:16:22 - 00:09:17:17 Rev. Brittany You know what I mean? 00:09:17:17 - 00:09:19:23 Rev. Hannah And how far do I go back to? Correct. 00:09:20:05 - 00:09:47:02 Rev. Brittany Exactly. Because you've got, you mean, if you've, I think a part of us as human beings is that we are routine people. You know, we like what we like. We like, you know, we do what we do. We're creatures of habit. Right? And so, something that comes up and interrupts that. And we we're not really fond of and even as Christians, as much as we say we love God and the Spirit of God and the new thing God's doing, when it interrupts our lives, we are not. 00:09:47:04 - 00:09:50:08 Rev. Brittany We're not very happy about it. God or not, right? 00:09:50:08 - 00:10:06:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you make me connect all the dots again. When Jesus came in his incarnate body, he interrupted the way of life in the world, and people didn't like it to the point of him being killed. 00:10:06:09 - 00:10:07:01 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:10:07:01 - 00:10:13:00 Rev. Hannah And God was always challenging people, to broaden their mind and change their heart. 00:10:13:01 - 00:10:13:17 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:10:13:19 - 00:10:25:05 Rev. Hannah That wasn't easy. Now the Spirit that's coming from Jesus and from God, the truth that the Spirit will speak, is not going to be easy. 00:10:25:05 - 00:10:28:19 Rev. Brittany It's not going to be easy because the truth of God is not easy. 00:10:29:22 - 00:10:37:15 Rev. Brittany Right. The truth of God is deep and it's challenging and it's gut wrenching and it's beautiful. 00:10:37:17 - 00:10:38:11 Rev. Hannah Yes. 00:10:38:11 - 00:11:00:02 Rev. Brittany You know, it's all of those things. And I think, like, when I was in Des Moines, I took a "Mindfulness for Ministers" class because I'm not the most mindful. But in realizing recently, like actually, the thing about mindfulness isn't just like about meditating, but it's about holding two things in tandem because there's a tension in our lives, right? 00:11:00:02 - 00:11:37:00 Rev. Brittany There's always something that's really great that's going on, and sometimes there's something that's really bad that's happening, all at the same time, right? Whether it's something going on well in your life that's personal, and then socially, there's problems or you know, like, yeah. There's always a like something. Exactly. And life is about the tension of that and holding that, right, and realizing that just because you're holding two things in tension don't mean that those things, one, don't have something to teach us and that we should be trying to assuage whatever feeling that is so that we can feel good or better. 00:11:37:05 - 00:11:52:20 Rev. Brittany But if we actually hold those two things in tandem and realize that they're both teaching us and informing us, then we get to really understand the fullness of what life is, because we have a tendency to think that everything is going to feel good all the time. 00:11:52:22 - 00:12:02:11 Rev. Hannah And Christian faith is not about feeling good. That's what Jesus is warning right here, and it will be ... you cannot bear them now. 00:12:02:13 - 00:12:04:17 Rev. Brittany Bear! Cannot bear them. 00:12:04:17 - 00:12:37:10 Rev. Hannah Bear! May I use my third Greek word? "Phortízō" is the word that John used here that refers to the physical bearing, physical act of bearing and supporting something. Heavy. And you know what, this Greek term is used in all three Synoptic Gospels, Gospel of John, Acts, and Romans. So the truth must be hard to bear for all of them, all these communities. 00:12:37:14 - 00:12:39:03 Rev. Brittany And different generations. 00:12:39:05 - 00:12:40:06 Rev. Hannah Right? Yes. 00:12:40:06 - 00:12:47:17 Rev. Brittany And it's not ... Okay, Jesus says, "I still have many things to say to you." Doesn't say, but you, but you cannot "hear" them now, right? Because hearing... 00:12:47:22 - 00:13:03:08 Rev. Brittany You cannot bear them now, which means that the Spirit of truth, when it comes, it's coming heavy. It's coming heavy handed and heavy fisted, and it's to sit on their shoulder and it's going to have a little weight to it. Right. Because that's what truth is. 00:13:03:10 - 00:13:26:09 Rev. Hannah Yes. And also, the heavy load won't be lifted out of our life. Like the tension we hold every day. Exactly. For 2000 years there were many historical changes and social, political, and racial, ethnic understandings. But the life burden is always heavy to bear. 00:13:26:11 - 00:13:27:03 Rev. Brittany Always. 00:13:27:09 - 00:13:30:14 Rev. Hannah But there is this beauty of the Spirit. 00:13:30:16 - 00:13:32:00 Rev. Brittany Paraclete. 00:13:32:00 - 00:13:32:18 Rev. Hannah Paraclete. Did I get it right? 00:13:32:18 - 00:13:34:02 Rev. Brittany You did. 00:13:34:04 - 00:14:15:10 Rev. Hannah So Paraclete, the Spirit that is going to accompany all community of believers throughout generations. Will guide them. You know what that does? Able to understand the new and changing situations and culture and guide all witnesses through all generations. So what the Spirit will tell people may be slightly different variations of what Jesus taught them in the first century, but it will always reflect the teaching of Jesus and the Spirit of God. 00:14:15:12 - 00:14:30:06 Rev. Brittany Yeah. So, it's the interconnectedness of realizing that the Spirit of God is moving through all generations, and the Spirit of God is what connects us to each other in past generations, to future generations, to the present generations. 00:14:30:07 - 00:14:38:03 Rev. Hannah So what does that make us think about the dogmas and doctrines that never change? 00:14:38:05 - 00:14:46:00 Rev. Brittany I think that those things don't change because oftentimes we're unwilling to listen to the Spirit of God. Right? 00:14:46:02 - 00:14:47:13 Rev. Hannah That's what I wanted to hear. 00:14:47:13 - 00:14:53:21 Rev. Brittany You know, like the creeds and all of that. They're important, right, for the history and tradition. 00:14:53:21 - 00:14:55:04 Rev. Hannah Out of their argument. 00:14:55:09 - 00:14:56:00 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:14:56:02 - 00:14:57:12 Rev. Hannah But the time. 00:14:57:12 - 00:15:10:19 Rev. Brittany The Spirit of God doesn't care about the Creed, the Spirit of God cares about whether or not you can handle and bear this truth so that you might live differently, so that you might actually learn how to love your neighbor as yourself. 00:15:10:19 - 00:15:33:15 Rev. Hannah Yes, and the Spirit will tell you what that means in different generations. Exactly. Loving your neighbor can have many different expressions exactly, depending on their situations and their policies around it. And these days, loving our neighbors is standing alongside those who are being persecuted in today's world. Hello! 00:15:33:21 - 00:15:40:02 Rev. Brittany Stand beside and you know when you stand beside them, it's a hard ... 00:15:40:04 - 00:15:56:16 Rev. Hannah Burden to bear. That's living your life and helping someone else's life. There's showing your love, but also learning love from them is mutual. Not just one way. 00:15:56:21 - 00:16:17:19 Rev. Brittany Exactly. That when you stand with someone. I do think that, you know, when we think about people who are suffering, we think about people who are oppressed. When we stand with those people, it cost us something. But you ... God doesn't take something from us or the, you know, God doesn't allow the world to take something from us without replenishing us with something different. 00:16:17:21 - 00:16:38:01 Rev. Brittany That's just my opinion. Yes. Now, I can't speak for anybody else, but there have been so many times in my life where I have felt like, "oh God, I don't want to do this thing." And I've done it, and been blessed in a way that I couldn't even ... I couldn't even articulate, you know what I mean? But we have to be willing to go there and realize that when we go, we don't go alone. 00:16:38:03 - 00:16:56:01 Rev. Brittany That there's the Spirit of God. The Spirit of truth is following us and guiding us and strengthening us for the journey ahead. Yeah. You know, when Jesus goes into the wilderness and, you know, the Spirit of truth, it says the Spirit guides Jesus into the wilderness. This is in all of the Gospels, right, before he's tempted by the devil. 00:16:56:03 - 00:17:09:21 Rev. Brittany It's the, to me, the Holy Spirit that strengthens Jesus, not to fall into the temptation from the devil. Right? That it wasn't just the Spirit that guided Jesus there, it was the Spirit that stayed with him and kept him grounded. 00:17:09:21 - 00:17:10:19 Rev. Hannah And kept him wrestling with. 00:17:10:19 - 00:17:21:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah, you know, and helped him hold the tension of both hunger, physical hunger, and also being fed by a God who never gives up on us. 00:17:21:18 - 00:17:23:06 Rev. Hannah You know. 00:17:23:08 - 00:17:25:01 Rev. Brittany The tension of it all. Yeah. 00:17:25:03 - 00:17:50:09 Rev. Hannah And I'll always commit myself to bring that tension into our conversation about racism, conversation about the truth, so that it's not your own Black perspective. It's not my own Korean perspective. We challenge and question. Ask questions to each other. So that we can wrestle with the Spirit like Jesus did out in the wilderness. 00:17:50:11 - 00:18:13:19 Rev. Brittany And you know how we do that, though, is by asking questions. I've learned so much from you about how world history works, because that's not something that, you know ... like you're like, "Oh, this happened and this happened." And I'm like, "Whoa!" You know what I mean? So, well, you taught me so much about not just seeing it from the lens in which I was taught, but broadening my perspective so that I can understand, like, "Oh, what was happening in 1960 here." 00:18:13:22 - 00:18:28:02 Rev. Brittany "There were things happening in 1960, in Korea." Yeah. I mean, and so, like, these things aren't isolated incidences. A threat to justice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. And the struggles of the people are the struggles of the people, of God's people. 00:18:28:02 - 00:18:31:04 Rev. Hannah Yes. And that's why it's hard to bear. 00:18:31:04 - 00:18:31:20 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:18:31:22 - 00:18:55:10 Rev. Hannah And it's a gift to the entire community, the entire global community. Exactly. Whether you believe in one thing or another, we can always learn from each other. And I learn from you as well. And the best lesson I started practicing? "Closed mouth doesn't get fat." Hello. 00:18:55:12 - 00:19:01:22 Rev. Brittany Hello. So speak your truth. Even if your voice shakes, girl, and ask for what you need. Amen. 00:19:02:00 - 00:19:03:15 Rev. Hannah I can't even open my mouth. 00:19:03:15 - 00:19:20:13 Rev. Brittany Well, we working on that, okay, with the Spirit of truth. Reverend Hannah, this is a great discussion. We are still in the Pentecost season, so this is our Holy Trinity Sunday, right? We've talked about God. We've talked about Jesus. And Jesus is entering and inviting the Spirit in. 00:19:20:13 - 00:19:21:08 Rev. Hannah We covered them. 00:19:21:08 - 00:19:22:10 Rev. Brittany All. We covered them. 00:19:22:10 - 00:19:27:20 Rev. Hannah All. We didn't talk about the gender pronouns for the Spirit. You will talk about. 00:19:27:20 - 00:19:55:01 Rev. Brittany I'll leave that to the to Sunday's worship, baby. Amen. So, we have a couple of questions for you all to ponder with yourself and with folks in your own community: What kinds of truth, whether it be about ourselves, others, God, and the world, do we typically find hard to bear to? How do cultural, historical, emotional, and psychological factors affect our capacity to hear the truth? 00:19:55:03 - 00:20:23:14 Rev. Brittany And three: How should the church approach the challenge that people may not yet be ready to hear certain truths? We hope that you'll spend some time pondering these questions for yourself, and we hope that you'll join us on Sunday morning at 9 AM for worship and 11 AM for our Tapestry. And if you stick by and hang out at Tapestry, you can join us for Convergence at 12, which is a conversation with others who are also going to be watching this podcast. 00:20:23:16 - 00:20:26:12 Rev. Brittany We hope to see you soon. Bye. 00:20:26:14 - 00:20:54:15 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.