00:00:00:00 - 00:00:15:18 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives. A podcast where the clergy women of the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:15:20 - 00:00:47:15 Rev. Hannah Hi friends. Welcome to our podcasts called Perspectives. You will hear our understandings of the Scripture from two pastors here at First Church. I'm happy to be back here with you. After serving the General Conference for two weeks as an interpreter. Do you know what that means? That means no opinions or perspectives were allowed. I'm happy to be with you here this morning. 00:00:47:15 - 00:00:55:02 Rev. Hannah This afternoon, Reverend Trudy, eager to share our perspectives right together. I missed this part. 00:00:55:04 - 00:00:57:13 Rev. Trudy Hannah Ka is back with opinions. 00:00:57:13 - 00:00:59:06 Rev. Hannah Yes, I am. 00:00:59:08 - 00:00:59:16 Rev. Trudy Good. 00:00:59:19 - 00:01:33:20 Rev. Hannah After two weeks. Yes. This week we continue to talk about what it means to be better humans. After going back to the ascension story in chapter one of Acts for the Ascension Sunday, we are back to chapter four, verses 32 through 35. And here is the story of how the early Christians lived their lives after the resurrection. "The community of believers was one in heart and mind. 00:01:33:22 - 00:02:14:02 Rev. Hannah None of them would say 'this is mine' about any of their positions, but held everything in common. The apostles continued to bear a powerful witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and an abundance of grace was at work among them all. There are no needy persons among them. Those who owned properties or houses would sell them, bring the proceeds from the sales, and place them in the care and under the authority of the apostles. 00:02:14:04 - 00:02:20:09 Rev. Hannah Then it was distributed to anyone who was in need." 00:02:20:11 - 00:02:44:21 Rev. Trudy Okay, Hannah, I don't know. I heard you say that those who owned properties sold them and bring all of the proceeds into the sale. All of them. All of it to the community. Yes. That is a tough word. That's a prophetic word. Right? It's okay to be talking about becoming better human beings because most of us want to do that. 00:02:44:21 - 00:03:05:08 Rev. Trudy But there are some topics that are off limits. Finances, I think, is one of them. I remember early in my ministry, I, actually midway through my ministry, I served a church that wanted to do a capital campaign, and I had never had a capital campaign. It's different from a stewardship campaign. Stewardship campaign raises money for an operating budget. 00:03:05:08 - 00:03:29:07 Rev. Trudy The capital campaign raises money for a special project, a capital improvement or something like that. So it requires people not to tithe, as the stewardship campaign would, but to give something over and above what they're giving to the operating budget. It was a sacrificial gift. It's a tough ask. And I had no idea how to go about it. 00:03:29:07 - 00:03:47:02 Rev. Trudy So I called a colleague of mine and said, my church, they want to do a capital campaign. What do I do? And this, seasoned pastor said, well, you call up the district superintendent and you see if they can place you in another church. 00:03:47:04 - 00:04:15:11 Rev. Trudy That was his response. Okay, run as fast as you can rather than do a capital campaign. I, it's a hard thing to do. I mean, at the same value we hear this Acts story and you think, "oh, my gosh, how can you preach this to a congregation?" That's prophetic preaching. It's preaching something that, my goodness, they probably don't want to hear. 00:04:15:12 - 00:04:27:07 Rev. Trudy You know, but these early Christians really believed what they were doing, so much so that they put their money behind a whole new way of life. Yes, that's prophetic preaching. 00:04:27:09 - 00:05:04:02 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you know that I think of a sermon or a preaching as something like cooking. So when it comes down to me feeding something that people might not chew on or it might not appreciate, right, I either chop it down or sauce it up or water it down. That's how I do it, because we know us. Yeah, we know our tendency wanting to hear the message of hope and love and grace, but not challenges. 00:05:04:04 - 00:05:13:13 Rev. Hannah So the prophetic message that says we're not doing the right thing or we're not doing enough. Yeah. When I run into. 00:05:13:13 - 00:05:15:07 Rev. Hannah Those hard, yeah. 00:05:15:07 - 00:05:47:17 Rev. Hannah It's hard. So, I don't know if you paid attention to the text before today's Scripture, but the apostles before us were having trouble with prophetic message. Right. They rock the boat by seeing prophetic messages and doing prophetic things in their lives. They disturbed and challenged those in power and they got arrested or sent to court then. 00:05:47:21 - 00:05:50:07 Rev. Hannah See, I want to avoid those. 00:05:50:09 - 00:06:19:00 Rev. Trudy Right, right. Yeah. Because we're the ones who have power. We're the ones who have money being Americans. And it's a tough Word. I did do a capital campaign. I've done actually four, three or four in my career. Yeah. And you know, the church gave money, because they believed. 00:06:19:02 - 00:06:45:12 Rev. Trudy Right. And, that's how you do a capital campaign. You have to really believe in what it is you're hoping to build or do through that gift of money. And, if you also are willing to give a sacrifice to lead the way, that changes everything. It's a change in your whole perspective. 00:06:45:14 - 00:07:16:04 Rev. Trudy And, I think there's, it's the invitation to take part in something bigger than yourself. Bigger than ourselves. Right. And I think that is really important, even just for our own well-being. Right. I used to argue with a friend about whether or not true altruism existed. Right. And I think in God's economy, if you do something that feels like it might be a sacrifice, you're going to come around and you're going to get blessed by it. 00:07:16:06 - 00:07:45:15 Rev. Trudy And I think that's how God works. So who cares whether it's true altruism? Because being a part of something bigger than yourselves, ourselves, is important for our health, even as much as it is important for the bigger thing you're trying to do with your money or anything else. I remember a gentleman in the congregation I served was really struggling with depression and just really felt God was had left him. 00:07:45:17 - 00:08:07:01 Rev. Trudy And, you know, we had several conversations. And he finally decided to volunteer for the Interfaith Hospitality Shelter Network. That's what it was called back then. And, he came to see a family who had been living on the streets because they had no place to live, in the church, open their doors for a week. 00:08:07:01 - 00:08:22:05 Rev. Trudy And this man volunteered to help. That cured his depression. He volunteered many different times. Being a part of something bigger than himself to pull him out of himself. 00:08:23:01 - 00:08:52:20 Rev. Trudy And to be engaged in some meaningful work that could give him a different perspective on his life. Right. So I think there's a really deep connection between what we do and how we give, and our faith. This is really fascinating to me. Just a few verses after what you just read, we hear this story of Barnabas. 00:08:52:22 - 00:09:15:03 Rev. Trudy Right? And Barnabas is the man. His name means one who encourages. Right. And he is really the first person to, ever recorded, to have given a major financial gift to the church. It's a Barnabas gift. I love that. And he owned a field. He sold it. He brought all the money and he placed it under the care and the authority of the apostles. 00:09:15:03 - 00:09:45:00 Rev. Trudy No strings attached. That takes such a such a shift in our perspective. And in the way we, as capitalistic Americans, can manage. But I think it's really important. Now, right after the story, Barnabas, we hear this story of Ananias and Sapphira, right, in Acts five. Should I even bring it up? Yes. Okay, well, I did, I did already. 00:09:45:02 - 00:10:03:21 Rev. Trudy So Barnabas is set in contrast to this couple who owned their property and they sold it, but then they only gave a portion of the proceeds to the church, just a little bit. You know, even if it were 10%, that'd be a tithe. But that's not what the church needed Then. And they only gave a portion of it. 00:10:03:21 - 00:10:25:04 Rev. Trudy And when they were confronted, they admitted that they hadn't given the full amount, and they dropped dead. Okay. So maybe the earlier Scripture we read is not the prophetic preaching where this one is. Yeah. Nobody wants to hear that, right? Must have been the very first fire and brimstone sermon of the church. Give it or die, right? 00:10:25:06 - 00:11:06:06 Rev. Trudy Oh my gosh. But I think, as what we've seen in many of the other passages in Acts, it's an ideal church. It's an ideal. And the ideal is kind of what sets the community apart. And, you know, the root concept of holiness is being set apart for God's use, right? So any kind of gift you give, you've set that apart from what you would normally use it for as holy to be for God's use. 00:11:06:08 - 00:11:18:00 Rev. Trudy And the holiness of the church is made manifest in their attitudes towards the things they have towards the goods of this world, right? 00:11:18:02 - 00:12:05:13 Rev. Hannah Yes. And you mentioned the ideal church. And at the same time, this was a real church for the early Christians. As you mentioned, no strings were attached. They were giving wholeheartedly, without any reservations. And most of them must have been doing the same thing, except this couple who were mentioned in the Scripture. Yeah. And I see the teaching of Jesus and his mission and ministry and the ways He sees the world and sees each person, and the ways He asked His disciples to carry on the mission of the church were well integrated in this text. 00:12:05:17 - 00:12:42:16 Rev. Hannah Yeah. And I see two folds of the mission out of their relationship, their wholehearted relationship with Jesus. It's like, it's way more than the named chair or endowment where you want to keep your legacy on forever. Jesus didn't want His name to be stoned on the church building, but He wanted the church to carry out the mission. First of which were sharing their possessions within the community. 00:12:42:18 - 00:13:22:10 Rev. Hannah And no one claimed any ownership. And it wasn't the disciples alone. It was everyone was doing that, and everyone was trusting each other, and there wasn't no need. And imagine the impact of this practice. People outside the church heard the improvement in their neighborhoods and within their Christian community and outside the church. They saw what happened to the person who was struggling so much as that person became a part of the community. 00:13:22:12 - 00:13:52:13 Rev. Hannah So, externally those internal changes within faith community came to be known to the outside community. And this sharing must have been the Good News that was proclaimed outside the church. So, I don't see the difference between the Good News that was being proclaimed outside and the sharing of the goods. They were synergetic. They were creating synergy effect. 00:13:52:13 - 00:14:15:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. If you can trust in God to the point of death, why can't we trust in God to the point of our finances, right? Yes. It's a continuation or maybe even a backing up. Right of that trust. Yeah. Yes. 00:14:15:12 - 00:14:41:23 Rev. Brittany Hi there. It's Reverend Brittany, and I have a favor to ask. If you're enjoying this episode of Perspectives. Well, please be sure to like, follow, subscribe, share, and leave us a review. This helps make sure that others like you can get into the conversation as well. And if you'd like to support our ministry, you can give online visit fumcsd.org/giveonline 00:14:42:01 - 00:14:51:12 Rev. Brittany That's fumcsd.org/giveonline. Now let's get back into the conversation. 00:14:51:14 - 00:15:27:03 Rev. Trudy You know that witness of the church in this way is a powerful one. And it really does state the mission of the church. Yes. The mission of the church, given this example and some of the other examples in Acts, this far, right, is all about caring for each other. And in here, we see it as a very pointed example of the way they cared for others within the community, the Christian community. 00:15:27:05 - 00:15:54:05 Rev. Trudy But as you said, it's also a witness to others, and, before this, we've seen the disciples care for others who were outside of the Christian community as well. So what an interesting mission for the church. Not in this scenario. Right? It's not about telling you what to believe in Jesus and the resurrection. It's not that it's caring for one another. 00:15:54:07 - 00:16:20:20 Rev. Trudy which is pretty amazing. You know, I still kind of think it was probably an ideal church, though. Yes. I found a commentator that said about one of the verses, in the verse or the Scripture we're talking about, who said in the noise of version and some other versions, it says there was not a needy person among them for as many as owned land or houses sold them. 00:16:20:22 - 00:16:48:10 Rev. Trudy And it sounds like everybody did. Right. But this commentator says "as many as" — the word that's translated — that it really could mean "from time to time." But that's a whole different story, right? That's a whole, it feels a little bit like a cop out. But I don't know, "from time to time." But then, we also know in the Book of Acts, there is evidence that there were early Christians who owned their homes. 00:16:48:10 - 00:17:13:13 Rev. Trudy It served as a meeting place, as a gathering for prayer. And they would come together to share a meal. So, you know, it may not be for every person did that, but maybe from time to time, as there was need, there was some very generous gifts given, which feels a little bit more attainable to me and certainly a lot more reflective of how we experience that. 00:17:13:15 - 00:17:39:00 Rev. Trudy And, you know, you put it in that frame, we see some amazingly generous gifts at the church. And to have somebody give to you out of their resources, and like this passage says, put it under the care in the authority of the apostles, put it under the care and the authority of the church, and entrusts us to do with it what we should. 00:17:39:00 - 00:17:55:20 Rev. Trudy It's pretty amazing. We've been able to do Racial Justice Grants at the church. You know, we contribute to organizations doing good work all around San Diego with 25% of our Easter and Christmas offerings. Right. 00:17:55:22 - 00:18:04:06 Rev. Hannah And we did the shelter with the migrants. We thought we were giving and sharing our resources. And they heard the Good News. 00:18:04:07 - 00:18:25:18 Rev. Trudy Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the beautiful thing about the migrant shelter was it wasn't just a one-way giving, right. It's coming back to that God's economy. Right? Yes. It was. It was. We gave and then they gave back, right? Yes, I loved it. I mean, it got to the point in the migrant shelter where our guests were cooking for us. 00:18:25:20 - 00:18:46:22 Rev. Trudy Yes. Right. And we'd say, "hey, staff, come on over. Lunch is ready." Right? Right. Yeah. And, if this really was part of the witness of the early church, it makes me wonder how did the outsiders see it? You know, in my mind, immediately goes to those who were in need. They probably saw this and went, "oh my gosh, this is incredible." 00:18:46:22 - 00:19:07:11 Rev. Trudy "Look what they're doing. This is beautiful. I want to I'm struggling to put food on the table. I don't have a place to live. I can't pay my taxes and I have limited rights." I mean, all of those things that kept people down in the Roman Empire. It would have been such good news to say, well, yeah, if that's you, come here because we'll take care of you. 00:19:07:13 - 00:19:37:02 Rev. Trudy Wow. Oh, I'm not so sure how the wealthy people might have taken this, right. The story of Jesus and the rich young ruler. Yeah. He walked away sad because he couldn't do what Jesus asked. Right. But people with money are just as susceptible to spend time worrying about finances as people without money. And people with money, I'm sure, spend time comparing themselves to others. 00:19:37:04 - 00:20:02:00 Rev. Trudy As people who want to move up the ladder are doing that. Right. And then I, as I thought about how wealthy people might look at this, and I absolutely think it's a message for wealthy people, too, because of that being a part of something bigger than yourselves, you can't think you did it all yourself, or you can do it all yourself. 00:20:02:02 - 00:20:29:17 Rev. Trudy I think of the story of Chuck Collins, who was the great grandson of Oscar Mayer, the founder of the Oscar Mayer meat processing brand. Right. I will not sing to the song about bologna, but I could. In 1985, he was 26 years old, and he gave his inheritance of $500,000 to several different foundations. 00:20:29:18 - 00:20:54:12 Rev. Trudy He walked away from his inheritance. He had, his father, learned of his desire to do this. And it is said that his father was afraid that his son was a Marxist. And Collins though, instead stated that he would rather be called Gandhian. 00:20:55:16 - 00:21:04:07 Rev. Trudy Or a Christian. And he later went on to live in a commune. Wow. Right. 00:21:04:09 - 00:21:16:05 Rev. Hannah He makes a point that I was heading toward. Every time I read this text, I was wondering, this is a form of primitive communist sublime. 00:21:16:06 - 00:21:19:15 Rev. Trudy No, wait. Hang on. You're going there? Yes, you're going there. 00:21:19:19 - 00:21:20:05 Rev. Hannah Is that. 00:21:20:05 - 00:21:22:08 Rev. Trudy Okay? All right, give it to me. 00:21:22:09 - 00:21:30:07 Rev. Hannah All right. So to me, primitive communism. Yeah. Okay. Primitive communism. 00:21:30:08 - 00:22:06:02 Rev. Hannah And we don't know. He was saying I don't, he would rather be called Gandhian or Christian, than Marxist. There aren't many differences between this text and Marxist idea. If you go down to the sharing of your resources. Karl Marx thought that our economic resources shape our behaviors and actions and attitudes that shaped our culture, and that gives us a sense of insecurity. 00:22:06:04 - 00:22:37:14 Rev. Hannah And that's where the capitalist ideal comes into play. So with that in mind, I don't know where I was heading. So he believed if all the positions are publicly owned and all the resources are shared by everyone fairly. Yeah, that will bring a just social order. That's the ideal of communism based on meeting the needs of everyone. 00:22:37:16 - 00:22:42:18 Rev. Hannah But did the communism bring a just social order? 00:22:42:19 - 00:22:45:11 Rev. Trudy I don't think so, no. Right. 00:22:45:11 - 00:22:52:05 Rev. Hannah Because they were not looking at the bottom of what Jesus was looking at. 00:22:52:06 - 00:22:54:00 Rev. Trudy So at the foundation. Yeah, at. 00:22:54:00 - 00:23:27:23 Rev. Hannah The foundation, in contrast, the resurrection economy, where people were sharing everything in common, is based on how we see others, people, other people. The early Christians saw the inherent human worth and dignity in others and wanted to honor and respect that. And they trusted the leadership of their faith community and entrusted their positions to their care. And this aligns with what Jesus was doing. 00:23:28:01 - 00:23:49:15 Rev. Hannah Yeah, yeah. And I think Luke, okay, was, Marxist or communist. Well, the parable of the debtors, the Good Samaritan, the rich for the unjust steward, the rich man, and Lazarus. Yeah. And the parable of money. All of those. 00:23:49:17 - 00:23:53:16 Rev. Trudy Well, yeah, he had a different vision for the world. Yeah. 00:23:53:18 - 00:23:59:14 Rev. Hannah Yeah, that was his understanding of faith and finance. Yeah. According to the gospel. 00:23:59:16 - 00:24:00:19 Rev. Trudy There you go. 00:24:00:21 - 00:24:45:18 Rev. Hannah So, I think when we are embracing the resurrection economy, the outcome is different from the communist ideology. It's more of coming from the second part of verse 33. It says "an abundance of grace was at work among them all." So I see an image of a river, pouring on all those believers abundantly, gushing through them and nourishing them and feeding them and giving them peace and joy and all of that. 00:24:45:20 - 00:25:04:06 Rev. Hannah And that was the way in which they were able to reform and reshape. Yeah, their finance, their faith, their culture. Yeah. So I think Jesus brought the kingdom on earth ... wanted to bring. 00:25:04:06 - 00:25:43:17 Rev. Trudy Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think there's something really, really powerful about what you said was the foundation of the resurrection economy. That it is understanding that every human being is worthy and deserves respect and to be, have their dignity. Right. And that is such a beautiful foundation. And it doesn't exist in capitalism, necessarily, or is certainly not as a foundation or communism as it played out. 00:25:43:19 - 00:26:03:07 Rev. Trudy We too easily look at somebody else and say, "Oh, they've made bad choices. They don't deserve to, you know, get my free will gift, because, you know, clearly, you did something wrong to be poor," or whatever. Right? And I mean, we all do that, you know. They're on the street corner, living unhoused. 00:26:03:09 - 00:26:26:11 Rev. Trudy And because, you know, they can't get rid of the drink or the drugs, right? It's, they don't deserve it. We have that shadowed in the background or the flip side of that. Oh, that person works so hard. And look, they manage such a big organization and, you know, institution. They deserve to have more money than anybody else. 00:26:26:11 - 00:26:31:04 Rev. Trudy Yes. yeah. I'm preaching now. 00:26:31:06 - 00:26:32:01 Rev. Hannah Yes, you are. 00:26:32:02 - 00:26:56:12 Rev. Trudy And I'm preaching to me, too! It is so uncomfortable. But that's the idea. Like this is what would it be like, though, if we just began to try and build that foundation and take these little steps of seeing other people in different economic positions, in different areas of need? 00:26:56:13 - 00:26:59:23 Rev. Hannah As just as worthy and. 00:27:00:00 - 00:27:03:22 Rev. Trudy dignified as anybody else. 00:27:04:00 - 00:27:19:04 Rev. Hannah There it is. That's a way of preaching the providing sermons. Not about giving your money. It's not about giving yourself. It's about seeing others in a different way. 00:27:19:04 - 00:27:22:20 Rev. Trudy So did I just water down my soup and maybe little spices out? 00:27:22:20 - 00:27:26:23 Rev. Hannah No, no, you just carved a way that we can. We want good eating. 00:27:27:03 - 00:27:46:01 Rev. Trudy You want to eat it? And there's something so true about this. The thing about the disciples in this community, they were all connected. They were reliant upon each other because they were being hunted to a certain extent and persecuted. Right? Maybe not so much at this point in the game, but it would come. They needed each other and I don't. 00:27:46:06 - 00:28:09:15 Rev. Trudy The hardest part for me to understand is why we as a culture don't understand. We need each other more than we do. I don't understand why we can't see the direct implications of our racism, or of the wealthy versus the people sleeping on the on the streets as it relates to to health care. Right and everything. I just don't get it. 00:28:09:17 - 00:28:11:11 Rev. Hannah Just don't get it inter-related. 00:28:11:11 - 00:28:47:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. But the early church knew it. Yes. That's our perspective. So we invite you to think about your perspective on this rich and complicated passage. I invite you to consider these questions: How do you hear prophetic preaching? You know that word that you really would rather not hear? How do you take it? And how do you see this behavior of the early church, as described in this chapter, as influencing the church's witness and their mission? 00:28:47:10 - 00:29:09:11 Rev. Trudy If you want to discuss these questions and anything else about this podcast, we invite you to join us for Convergence, either on Tuesday evenings, online, or in person on Wednesday mornings. We've had fun talking. I hope you've enjoyed it. We hope you'll tune in again for our next episode. This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. 00:29:09:13 - 00:29:33:00 Rev. Trudy To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.