00:00:00:00 - 00:00:17:00 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergywomen at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture theology and what it has to do with us. 00:00:17:01 - 00:00:33:19 Rev. Hannah Hello, welcome to Perspectives, episode 5. Today we will be talking about Exodus 12 around the theme of the Meal of Remembrance. I have Reverend Britney with me this morning. And if you remember the story, could you tell the story for us? 00:00:33:22 - 00:00:54:19 Rev. Brittany If I remember it? Well, I'll do my best since it is the story of remembrance! Okay. So essentially, what has happened in the Book of Exodus this far. Moses has been put in the basket. He's been saved. Pharaoh. He grows up in the house, he kills a man, he runs away. God calls him back. There's a burning bush. 00:00:54:21 - 00:01:14:01 Rev. Brittany Boom. He goes back to Pharaoh, as we know, and he tells Pharaoh, "Okay, Pharaoh, it's time to free the Egyptians. It's time to free the Israelites from slavery to free them from Egypt." And the Pharaoh is like, "No, not doing it." And Moses is like, "But God is telling me to tell you, like, let them go." 00:01:14:01 - 00:01:38:12 Rev. Brittany And Pharaoh is like, "not doing it." And so, Moses goes back to God, and Moses is like, "God, Pharaoh's not doing it." And God says, "okay, I'm going to send plagues." And so, plague after plague after plague after plague hits Egypt. And they are just facing this mass destruction, essentially. And now it's come down to the final plague that God will send. 00:01:38:14 - 00:02:06:09 Rev. Brittany And this plague is really gruesome. And it makes me sad to talk about very complicated text. But this is the plague of the slaughtering of the firstborn in the land of Egypt. And God tells them, "All right, well, this is what you need to do to prepare yourselves. You need to get a sheep or a lamb, and you need to sacrifice this lamb." 00:02:06:09 - 00:02:23:01 Rev. Brittany But they're very particular things that they have to do with it. There is a particular way that they have to eat it. They have to eat it roasted over fire. Right. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about, Reverend Hannah. I mean, there's so many rules, right? Yes. You can't boil it in water. I'm like, okay, you got to eat all of it. 00:02:23:01 - 00:02:51:05 Rev. Brittany You need to like, you know, what's left over is so is a very rigorous process in this idea of sacrificing this lamb. And then after this lamb has been sacrificed, they were instructed, the Israelites were instructed, to take that blood and to put it over the their outside doors so that when the plague comes, right. That their families are protected and that God would pass over their houses. 00:02:51:07 - 00:02:57:00 Rev. Brittany And so, that's the story. As the table is set as Passover. 00:02:57:01 - 00:03:26:14 Rev. Hannah Thank you for retelling the story from the first story of the Exodus. Up to this point, we hear the story as if it's happening and someone is writing down at the moment up to Chapter 11. And then we have this interruption at Chapter 12, right? There is a little more to it, a little more detailed instructions, of you shall or you shall not, and don't do this and do this instead. 00:03:26:14 - 00:03:55:02 Rev. Hannah And all of those. And that's where we pause and think "uh oh, this is not the story was chronologically put together. It came out of place." So it's placed, it's woven with the warning about the killing of the firstborn and the actual killing of the firstborn. So there was a purpose for this text to be inserted there. 00:03:55:04 - 00:04:21:20 And I can see a lot of things in this purpose, but as one to be of reminding the future generation to remember this day. And as a part of the future generation, what do you take out of this? Warnings or this ritual? 00:04:21:21 - 00:04:26:15 I think that when I think of the importance of remembrance, I think remembering is a gift. 00:04:26:16 - 00:04:50:11 Right? And it is not just to remember the great times that we've had, but it's also to remember the hard times that we've had and the fact that we got through those hard times and to remember who got us through those hard times. God, right. And so, I think that this act of Passover is as a ritual of remembrance for them, because where they are going as they leave Egypt is they're going into the wilderness. 00:04:50:11 - 00:05:26:04 Right. And they have to remember that God had been with them through slavery because to get out of slavery and then go into the wilderness. Right. You're jumping out of the frying pan, really into the fire again. Right. They have to remember that it was God who protected them. It was God who was with them. And so, when I think of the importance of remembering, I think as we gather to to tell stories and to share where we've been and who God has been in our lives is really important because it's the gift of remembering God's presence, not necessarily the memory in and of itself, but the memory in relation to God being there with us. 00:05:26:05 - 00:05:34:04 Yes. And how do you perceive the concept of the lamb being used in this meal? 00:05:34:05 - 00:05:40:15 Okay, so it's wild to me, one, because I don't like lamb, you know, I'm a picky eater. 00:05:40:16 - 00:05:43:00 Yes, I do. I do know that. 00:05:43:01 - 00:05:53:18 Yeah, I'm a picky eater. And also they're really cute. But that's not the point, right? The point of the text, in my opinion, right, is not the slaughtering of the lamb, but it's the idea of community. 00:05:53:19 - 00:06:13:06 Right. The thing that really stuck out to me about this text is as they are getting all of these instructions, as Moses is telling them what God has said about how this Passover meal is to take place. The text says that if a household is too small in size for its own lamb, then they are to join the household of someone else. 00:06:13:12 - 00:06:46:17 And so, this idea that no one should be left out of the Passover, no one should be left out of this idea of remembrance, everyone should be invited to the table. And it shouldn't be a wasteful act of gluttony, but it should be an act of sharing and like remembering together and also instilling in the generations to come the importance of community, the importance of gathering as community, the importance of sharing the resources, the importance of caring for those who may not otherwise have what is needed to sustain a healthy life. 00:06:46:19 - 00:06:57:00 Yes. And you touched upon the beautiful side of the lamb story. Now I'll be butchering the lamb and see the blood and flesh. 00:06:57:01 - 00:06:59:19 Get into it incarnational theology. 00:06:59:20 - 00:07:12:03 No, not there yet. But I was thinking of you as I was reading this story. The image of the lamb and I could see using you. Absolutely. You know me. 00:07:12:05 - 00:07:42:11 So as people who live in 2024, we might be thinking, you know, for people in that time and age, Right. And the Hebrews, this was part of their culture, you know, that they were nomads before becoming slaves in baking brick and mortar and other laboring in the civilized Egyptian world. And then after generations in Egypt, they are moving again. 00:07:43:03 - 00:08:13:11 And back to the nomadic life in the wilderness. So it could have been part of their DNA and their culture to talk about the blood and flesh and all that and relating that to God and all of that. So I was thinking that this could have been all the rite of passage for passage for the nomadic people to then. 00:08:13:13 - 00:08:56:04 Okay, I understand that part. But why? Blood all over the doors and around the city? You do you want to walk around the city with full of bloody marks? I don't. And so, as modern day audience, you and I are okay eating meat. But we don't want to see the blood all over the city. That's true. Yes. And I was wondering, with that text, does God need bloody marks all over the city to figure out which ones are the Egyptian family and which ones are not Egyptian families or a Hebrew family. 00:08:56:06 - 00:09:33:22 And if you're a Hebrew family. And fail to mark your door, does that mean that God is going to kill your firstborn as well? Right. And the verse 12 said, I'll pass through the land of Egypt and I'll strike down every firstborn in Egypt. That doesn't necessarily mean that God needs a sign. And although it may be convenient for God, but instead, this verse reads, The blood shall be a sign for you. 00:09:35:02 - 00:10:04:14 On the houses where you live. So I'm thinking I'm getting it in the nomadic culture, this blood could be used as a sign of the promise of God to assure those people that God will be with them. No matter what's going to happen. But I still struggle with the killing of the firstborn in Egyptian family. 00:10:04:19 - 00:10:31:22 Yeah, I do, too. I think we all should be on to talk about that practice. Well, I think what's really interesting to me is that earlier in the book of Exodus, as we find Moses, right, as we hear Moses, his story, his story begins with the execution of Hebrew baby boys and then the final plague years later that sent into Egypt. 00:10:31:22 - 00:10:58:07 In Egypt is the killing of the first born. It's just interesting to me that the thing that Moses had to I mean, his mother had to shield him from is the thing that the Hebrews are now preparing for. But for the Egyptians. Right. And it makes it complicated. But yeah, right. Like this. Like this revenge kind of thing. 00:10:58:07 - 00:11:32:00 And it's just interesting how quickly we justify acts of violence when it is been beneficial in an act of revenge. Right. And I think that human nature in so many ways, right. Like we say we were, we're not into violence unless it's this. Right. I don't believe in the death penalty unless it's this or I don't believe in violence unless it's this, you know. 00:11:32:05 - 00:11:57:10 And so, and when we get to the unless it's this part and right, then it's justified. Yes. And so, it really I wrestle with this text deeply because it's interesting how it begins with the slaughtering of the innocent to going back to the slaughter of the innocent. Right. Because children are innocent, period. Right. Whether they're Egyptian or whether they were Hebrew, it was both. 00:11:57:15 - 00:12:29:04 They were, they were children. And so, to think that, again, it's the slaughter of the innocent occurring, but in a system of reverse hierarchy doesn't sit right with my spirit. Right. Because it's not about revenge, in my opinion. It's not about revenge. It's about what can I do to make this new right. And so, when I hear that I can't, it's hard for me to justify acts against children in any way. 00:12:29:06 - 00:12:50:00 And so, I think that we are so conditioned in our culture to like, you know, when we're watching movies, for instance, like get the bad guy and, you know, kill the bad guy kind of thing. But the bad guy is a little child of God as well, right? In that story that bad guy has a more complex story than what is being, you know, shared. 00:12:50:01 - 00:13:24:19 And I believe in justice. But I, I can't justify that. The act of children being punished. Right. For the sake of the sins of their parents. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The children, the most vulnerable people were often the victims of violence. All the way to Jesus. Birth to. Hello. Despite the thousands of years of difference between then and Jesus' time and to now, we still want to kill the bad guys. 00:13:24:20 - 00:14:02:10 Exactly. And think about the changes along the way from the nomadic life. About 1200 years before the Common Era, right through the Bronzes and Iron Age and all the way to like from the nomadic life to settled civilization where you take care of the livestock instead of hurting them out in the wilderness. Even despite all those changes, we have this tendency to justify our violence once in a while. 00:14:02:12 - 00:14:41:12 Yeah, and I don't know, do our human thoughts or our experiences ever justify, ever evolve, to think about the injustice involved in those violences? Well, yeah, I definitely think that, like, human ritual changes over time. Right. Like, there what we do now is not what we did back then. Right. Like, we're not riding horses and buggies, Right. As they did in colonial America to get from point A to point B, right, we advance. 00:14:41:12 - 00:15:03:02 And as we advance and evolve, I would hope that our spirituality also evolves in our understanding of God and our understanding of each other evolves as well. I think that we do evolve in many aspects, but then there are parts of us that are afraid of what the full evolution might look like, right? What that change might look like. 00:15:03:02 - 00:15:30:07 Because in evolution, it's change and changes hard and scary. And we don't always want to do that. However, we do change. Humans change. The church changes. You know, we see it. And I'm not even talking about the church changes. And, you know, today I'm talking about meeting in buildings. You know, our church has a history from going from the one room, right? 00:15:30:11 - 00:15:54:18 I think it was one room right downtown. Right. And then we moved and continue to to build and expand and evolve. And I think that that's how our rituals also change and advance and evolve. So in rituals, we remember the symbols. But the format changes. The building changes and people changes. And. 00:15:54:20 - 00:16:25:09 But I still see traces of blood in today's world and in this New Testament and everywhere, I think about the Communion. Yeah. Yeah. Although we use grape juice or wine to celebrate the Last Supper, we still remember the symbol of blood. And the crucifixion of Jesus was symbolized as the lamb of God, the sacrificial ritual. Again. Get into it. 00:16:25:09 - 00:17:00:05 Theologian! Making the historical connection to the nomadic life. And, you know, it just came to my mind, Jesus was the firstborn of Mary, and Joseph. Sure was. And God didn't pass over certain after the Passover meal. Sure did not. Well, that wasn't my theological point, but that's good to notice. The point is that, so God, was with the Hebrews, the Israelites, and whoever they marry with along the way. 00:17:00:07 - 00:17:34:00 And to do just even though we use the same blood symbol, Jesus expanded the horizon and focus of God's love for everyone. I know you don't like talking about the crucifixion, but I often imagine Jesus' perspective on the cross, dying and suffering in pain. I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't go, "I'm going to shed my blood for this and this and that person." 00:17:34:02 - 00:18:04:14 Yeah. "And you are excluded because you did this and you did that and you did that." So that was what. But I can follow Jesus because he made this love available for everyone. Reverend Hannah, I'm going to say something very serious. You know, the reason that I have a problem with the crucifixion. It's not that I have a problem with. 00:18:04:14 - 00:18:28:01 Well, yes, I do have a problem with crucifixion, because I don't I don't think that Jesus had to die. And I think we tell ourselves that Jesus died for my sins. But I don't agree. I think Jesus died because of sin. Right. Because of our sin. As a result. As a result of. Right. Not for but because of the sin of the world. 00:18:28:01 - 00:18:59:15 Right. And so, the atonement theology is a little bit complicated for me. The focus was on the communal. Right. Exactly. Exactly, exactly. I just just needed to clear that up in my brain, not just about, you know, just to say that even when we're not dealing directly with the blood, we have that right sacrificial nomadic ritual in mind when we understand our relationship with Jesus. 00:18:59:15 - 00:19:23:21 So I wasn't going for that. Yeah, no, I know you weren't. I was just making the note. Okay. Allowed. Look. Yes. Thank you for making that note out loud. And can we bring the story back to the communal aspect? We can. The meal of remembrance as a community activity and communal remembrance and think about Jesus. 00:19:23:23 - 00:19:56:07 At this Passover holiday with his disciples, his close friends, only a handful of people were invite invited. And you will like this part. Okay, so the Communion is our remembrance of Jesus, too. And John Wesley. So before I bring in John Wesley. Let me name those people who say I'm sorry. I know you have a little crush, a theological crush on John Wesley. 00:19:56:07 - 00:20:33:08 But let me name those people who are hesitant to receive the Communion because that person is not ready and that they and we think about who is qualified to take the Communion. And some churches say if you're divorced, if you're X, Y, Z, you can't take the Communion here. And all of those things. This is what we like John Wesley and serve in the Methodist Church because it's not about whether or not we are prepared for this meal. 00:20:33:09 - 00:21:09:16 Right? It's symbolizing God's activity. God takes the initiative at the table, too. So whether or not we are ready, it's God and God's. We are celebrating God's mighty act of redemption through that meal. So I want people to know that, yeah, Communion is a really special time and I think we do it so much. It's so much a part of our ritual that we sometimes forget how communal it is and how sacred it is and how much of an act of remembrance it is, right? 00:21:09:18 - 00:21:33:23 Jesus tells us to do this in remembrance of me. So we wonder. I wonder how often we think about what you just taught and did. As we remember Jesus at the Communion. Right. And you and I share a lot of meals together on a weekly basis. And now I can order for you, even if you take a potty break. 00:21:34:01 - 00:22:03:09 Yes. Well, yes, I understand your appetite, because that's where we build relationships as a community and care for one another and one care for each others appetite as well. And I think after our time together, serving in this church, and after we are being appointed to another church, I'll be thinking of you and all these other clergy that I worked with. 00:22:03:09 - 00:22:40:05 Every time I boil the crab, every time I make chicken use not use the thigh part, but use the breast or something less fatty. And that's an expression of our care for one another. And I'll be thinking of the community. We served together after many, many years and think about what God will do. Yeah. Despite our flaws and despite our shortcomings through us. 00:22:40:07 - 00:23:08:12 And I think that's the point of the meal of remembrance. And Reverend Hannah, just thinking about exactly what you said about getting to know people. Right. And that's why the sacrifice was a communal sacrifice and not an individual sacrifice. Right. The families made the sacrifice together. They joined households together because God wants our communal sacrifice. God wants us to be doing this work as a community. 00:23:08:12 - 00:23:43:13 Individually, we have our own work to do. But there are certain things that we have to do with and around other people. Yes. And you bring you bring this conversation home by highlighting the communal aspect once again. Because in American Christian culture, we think about our faith as an individual relationship with God and personal matter with God. Right. But from very early on, God made it so clear that God's relationship with was was never meant to be individual. 00:23:43:15 - 00:24:04:21 And God is relational, right? If we are relational and God is constantly seeking us. Right. We're talking about prevenient grace, even when we don't have it, John Wesley. But when we're talking about those things, we know that God is a relational God, right? God wants to be in relationship with us. That's but we as Christians believe because Jesus came to be in relationship, right? 00:24:04:21 - 00:24:31:04 And so, God is relational. And if God is relational, then God is calling us to be relational and communal as well. That's great. I hear a little bit of process theology there and we'll continue this conversation around our convergence time with some questions. Thanks for joining our podcast on our perspectives and we hope that you'll join us for Convergence as you can share your own perspective. 00:24:31:10 - 00:24:54:14 And so, here are some questions that we leave you to ponder. Outside of communion, are there any personal moments of remembrance in your life? What are other ways that we can remember God's active presence in our community? And where do you see God in your own relationships? So we hope you'll take some time this week to ponder those questions. 00:24:54:14 - 00:24:59:20 And we hope to see you in Convergence or in Tapestry. 00:24:59:22 - 00:25:28:01 This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.