00:00:00:06 - 00:00:12:20 Rev. Brittany Mental health challenges touch 1 in 8 adults globally, but the church has remained relatively silent throughout history. Join us today as we unpack the stigma together. 00:00:12:22 - 00:00:26:20 Rev. Trudy Welcome to perspectives, a podcast where the clergy, women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:22 - 00:00:53:00 Rev. Brittany Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany and I'm so glad that I'm here with Sheila Cameron, our director of the New Life Counseling Center and a licensed family, marriage and marriage and family therapist. We are so glad that you are with us today. We are continuing in our series, Taking Care of Mind, body and Spirit, and this week we're focusing on mental health in general. 00:00:53:00 - 00:01:26:14 Rev. Brittany We'll be reading from the Book of Ezekiel, chapter four, verses one through eight. And let's just say Ezekiel has a lot going on. It reads as follows. And you, oh mortal, take a break and set it before you on it. Portray the city Jerusalem, and put siege works against it, and and build a sage wall against it, and cast upon a ramp against it, and set camps also against it, and plant battering rams against, against it all around. 00:01:26:16 - 00:01:49:12 Rev. Brittany Then take an iron plate and place it as an iron wall between you and the city. Set your face toward it, and let it be in a state of siege, and place the siege against it, and this will be a sign for the house of Israel. Then you will lie on your side, on your left side, and place the punishment of the house of Israel upon it. 00:01:49:13 - 00:02:10:18 Rev. Brittany You shall bear their punishment for a number of days as you lie there. For I assign to you a number of days, 390 days, equal to the number of years of their punishment. So you shall bear the punishment of the house of Israel. When you have completed these, you shall lie for a second time, but on your right side, and bear the punishment of the house of Judah. 00:02:10:19 - 00:02:35:08 Rev. Brittany 40 days I assign to you. One day for each year you shall set your face towards the siege of Israel, of Jerusalem. And with your arm, Baird, you shall prophesy against it. See, I am putting cords on you, so that you cannot turn from one side to the other. You have completed the days of your siege. Whoa, whoa. 00:02:35:10 - 00:02:37:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That was a lot. 00:02:37:01 - 00:02:38:11 Rev. Brittany That was a lot. A lot of. 00:02:38:11 - 00:02:43:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Pressure, a lot of stress. Maybe chronic stress, ongoing stress. 00:02:43:23 - 00:03:18:11 Rev. Brittany Lots of stress. I see, so Ezekiel is one of the prophets of Jerusalem and one of the prophets that we hear about often. But Ezekiel to me sometimes gets a bad rep. But just to give you a little theological feedback on him. He was born in Jerusalem around 623 BC to a prominent high ranking priestly family. So just thinking about, you know, you don't just become a prophet because you're a prophet. 00:03:18:11 - 00:03:41:07 Rev. Brittany You usually get this word from God, but a lot of times come from like a priestly line, right? So I'm thinking about all of the pressure that must be on him to come from a father who is a priest and a priestly line, so generation after generation. So what that looked like for him. So he spent part of his life serving the priest in the kingdom of Judah before the Babylonian exile. 00:03:41:07 - 00:04:07:09 Rev. Brittany But then he was deported forcibly, of course, to Babylon during the second wave of the exiles in 597 BCE, alongside the king of the King of Judah at the time, Jehovah king. And so he was approximately 25 years old when he got to that deportation. But then he got this, this prophecy from God around the age of 30. 00:04:07:10 - 00:04:31:06 Rev. Brittany And so he's dealing with all of this stress, I think, especially from going from living in the place that he was born in, the place that his family was to now this totally different experience of being in exile, not just moving right, but being in exile. So I just thought I'd give you a little bit of feedback on who he was and where he was. 00:04:31:11 - 00:04:43:19 Rev. Brittany I also thought it was interesting when I was reading in the commentaries, that he was settled in a refugee camp alongside an irrigation canal, and he spent the rest of his life in Mesopotamia. 00:04:43:21 - 00:04:47:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So that's good context. Yes, for that verse. 00:04:47:19 - 00:04:48:11 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:04:48:11 - 00:05:03:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And just think of all the pressure coming from his lineage, but then the pressure coming from being now a prophet. Right. And then the hardship in the exile. Right. That's that's a lot for one person to bear. 00:05:03:01 - 00:05:24:05 Rev. Brittany Yeah. For sure. And you know what stuck out to me in this scripture? The reason that Ezekiel sticks out talking about mental health is because he's often known as the wild or crazy prophet, right? Because his prophecies are a little more. Out stream than some of the prophets of. 00:05:24:05 - 00:05:25:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Old. 00:05:25:05 - 00:05:43:08 Rev. Brittany And even the ones that come after him. But what was what really stuck out to me was this idea of him having this prophecy come from God, and now it is his responsibility to bear the guilt, the shame and the punishment of Israel. 00:05:43:10 - 00:05:59:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's a lot to carry. Correct. I wonder how you know the state of his mental health. Exactly like who does he go to to kind of offload all of that? And then he's in exile. Exile? With whom? Or himself. Okay. 00:05:59:15 - 00:06:11:01 Rev. Brittany No other deportees have been. You know, the king had been deported as well. But he wasn't. He wasn't alone physically. But I think the weight of what he was carrying. 00:06:11:01 - 00:06:29:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Was unique to him. And probably not a lot of people could relate to that. Exactly. Sounds like a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure might be similar to those in leadership roles. He was clearly in leadership. So how isolating and lonely that could feel? Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:29:17 - 00:06:54:10 Rev. Brittany I mean, for caregivers in general, whether it's professional or just, you know, folks who are caring for their loved ones, I think there is a lot of responsibility placed on folks, and they're doing the good thing and the good, faithful thing, but often don't necessarily how to unpack it or where to, you know, put down some of the burden as they continue to to care for others. 00:06:54:10 - 00:07:14:12 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And sometimes how to even take a step back and realize, like, I'm as a caregiver, I need to also look in the mirror and care give for myself, right? Otherwise, we're going to go to burnout. We covered that in last episodes. We're going to go to depletion, and then we're not going to be any good for caregiving those around us. 00:07:14:13 - 00:07:15:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right. 00:07:15:07 - 00:07:38:09 Rev. Brittany I also think, you know, like this. So Israel is being punished because they have not been faithful to the commandments of God. They have fallen away. They have, you know, created idols there. There's a lot of backbiting. They haven't they're not taking care of the poor. So God's pretty upset with them based on what Ezekiel is talking about. 00:07:38:10 - 00:08:16:23 Rev. Brittany Right. And so I think about some of the, the trauma that comes from generations before you that you don't even you didn't even realize all of these things have happened. But there's this burden that's put on you, whether it's you're the first generation graduate in your family or you're, you know, a first generation immigrant family, whatever. You know, there's sometimes this huge ancestral pressure that's put on folks to bear the shame or even not always the shame, but to bear this perfection. 00:08:17:03 - 00:08:25:23 Rev. Brittany Right? That feels like you don't know what to do. You don't know where to go, because there's just such a huge weight that's been put on your shoulders. You know. 00:08:26:00 - 00:08:57:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT You're talking about like generational trauma, right? In a sense, which could feel very heavy. We might not even know specifically where this burden is coming from. There is a study that came out. It started in 1995. You might recall. It's called the Aces study that Adverse Childhood Experiences Study. It's like this pinnacle study in the mental health field. 00:08:57:03 - 00:09:40:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And they talk about trauma. They they talk about trauma specifically in childhood, not just factors like chronic stressors. When the child is five, they even look at like in utero, what was happening to the mother. Right. So all of these generational factors poverty, immigration, stress, domestic violence, all of those things shape us in utero, even if the mother is experiencing any of these traumas that can be passed down to the child in utero, and then that could shape our biology, it could shape the way our brain is wired. 00:09:40:15 - 00:10:04:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right? So the architecture of our brain is being shaped in utero and in infancy from all of these generational like traumas and patterns that have been passed down. So that is pretty heavy. That's what you're talking about here. That's what we're seeing in the Scripture, is all of this burden passed down from generation to generation. And then how does that shape us as an individual? 00:10:04:13 - 00:10:26:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT How does that shape us in managing how we deal with chronic stress in our life? How do we show up in relationships because of that? That impacts us and we could be compromised, severely compromised? Absolutely. And not just on a relational level. I feel like I know that that can also shape our biology. We could have heart issues. 00:10:26:13 - 00:10:32:23 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We could have diabetes, we can have immunocompromised systems because of all of that. 00:10:33:00 - 00:11:04:15 Rev. Brittany Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. Absolutely. There. There's a book, My Grandmother's Hands, that talks about this generational trauma that's passed down through genetics. Right. This epigenetic kind of experience. And so when you think about an oppressed people and not just an oppressed people, but I'm talking about is equal specifically. But when you think about an oppressed people, you're thinking about generations of having to survive and having to create nothing out of some or something out of nothing. 00:11:04:15 - 00:11:35:09 Rev. Brittany And this, this hope for a better future, and still the shame that's associated with not having it all together or the mistakes that have been made, you know, by previous generations. Right? So when we talk about this idea that these things are passed down from generation to generation, it takes folks acknowledging it right and realizing like that is a part of my story, but it's not my shame to carry. 00:11:35:14 - 00:12:04:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And I think it's also like what you're saying, acknowledging this might not just be me and how I'm handling this stress, right? Because sometimes that shame goes in. We carry that shame because we just look at it's just us. And yes, we are responsible for managing us, right? There's so many ways to do that. But we have to also look at this is maybe been transferred down to me in my biology. 00:12:04:03 - 00:12:37:02 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I'm maybe more predisposed to things like anxiety and depression. Because of the suffering of my ancestors, I may be more predisposed to co-occurring disorders like substance abuse. There's substance abuse disorders, but usually that shows up hand in hand with anxiety and depression. It's not usually just alone by itself, it usually co-occurring with other issues. So our genetics are are imprinted and altered because of all what came before us. 00:12:37:05 - 00:13:08:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So it impacts like this, this trauma, this generational trauma impacts how our nervous system is wired. Right. There's the parasympathetic nervous system and then the sympathetic nervous system. So the sympathetic nervous system is like people refer to it as the fight or flight system. So when there is stress or a threat present, how do we then regulate ourselves in order to either fight or flight to keep ourselves safe? 00:13:08:12 - 00:13:41:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. So when we have maybe a predisposition to anxiety, that automatic nervous system is then overactive and we could show up as I'm fighting all the time and I can't calm down, I can't seem to regulate myself or I am flighty, I avoid, I procrastinate or even freeze. So that's kind of what shows up in my office with my clients is like understanding what's going on with your nervous system where there is chronic stress. 00:13:41:09 - 00:13:46:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. When you're feeling debilitated in some ways, yeah. And you. 00:13:46:18 - 00:14:06:14 Rev. Brittany Know, a lot I mean, it is it's so I don't think that we talk enough in our society about the nervous system, you know, and like what happens with the nervous system. I was telling one of my friends, we were in Hawaii and I just felt like in my life, everything is just quick, you know what I mean? 00:14:06:15 - 00:14:24:19 Rev. Brittany And I'm just, like, moving really quickly through things. And we were just we were just outside at the beach and we were looking at the stars, and I was like, okay, well, we can go now. And she was like, you can just take your time. Brittany like. And I thought, wow, I can just take my time. Like, everything doesn't have to be this very rushed moment. 00:14:24:19 - 00:14:49:14 Rev. Brittany But I have spent so much of my life like getting the next thing done that my nervous system isn't properly regulated, you know, paying attention to that. Right? And obviously we're talking about predispositions and things like that and, you know, family and, you know, all of those kinds of things. I was also thinking about, like, the true way that shame and guilt can physically weigh on the body, you know? 00:14:49:15 - 00:15:00:15 Rev. Brittany And so Ezekiel's being like, he has to put these, these what was it, a. 00:15:00:17 - 00:15:21:07 Rev. Brittany The punishment on the left side. Right. These like heavy anchors or whatever on his metal ion plate. He has to put an iron plate on his left side and on his right side, one after the other. And like the metal, an iron plate does not sound light. It is not a feather that he is putting on, you know. 00:15:21:07 - 00:15:47:10 Rev. Brittany And so I think about sometimes not just the guilt and shame of passion, but some of your own failures, right? Like, Ezekiel grew up in Jerusalem, in Judea. So he he was also a part of that sinful, you know, whatever, turning away from God. Right. And so I think that some of his, some of the prophecy that's coming from him is generational. 00:00:00:06 - 00:00:12:18 Rev. Brittany Mental health challenges touch 1 in 8 adults globally, but the church has remained relatively silent throughout history. Join us today as we unpack the stigma together. 00:00:12:20 - 00:00:26:20 Rev. Trudy Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, theology, and what it has to do with us. 00:00:26:22 - 00:00:53:00 Rev. Brittany Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Perspectives. I'm Reverend Brittany, and I'm so glad that I'm here with Sheilah Cameron, our Director of the New Life Counseling Center and a licensed marriage and family therapist. We are so glad that you are with us today. We are continuing in our series, Taking Care of Mind, Body, and Spirit, and this week we're focusing on mental health in general. 00:00:53:00 - 00:01:26:14 Rev. Brittany We'll be reading from the Book of Ezekiel, chapter 4, verses 1-8. And let's just say Ezekiel has a lot going on. It reads as follows: “And you, oh mortal, take a brick and set it before you. On it, portray the city Jerusalem, and put siege works against it, and build a siege wall against it, and cast up a ramp against it, and set camps also against it, and plant battering rams against it all around. 00:01:26:16 - 00:01:49:12 Rev. Brittany Then take an iron plate and place it as an iron wall between you and the city. Set your face toward it, and let it be in a state of siege, and place the siege against it, and this will be a sign for the house of Israel. Then you will lie on your side, on your left side, and place the punishment of the house of Israel upon it. 00:01:49:13 - 00:02:10:18 Rev. Brittany You shall bear their punishment for a number of days as you lie there. For I assign to you a number of days, 390 days, equal to the number of years of their punishment. So you shall bear the punishment of the house of Israel. When you have completed these, you shall lie for a second time, but on your right side, and bear the punishment of the house of Judah. 00:02:10:19 - 00:02:35:07 Rev. Brittany Forty days I assign to you. One day for each year. You shall set your face toward the siege of Jerusalem, and with your arm bared, you shall prophesy against it. See, I am putting cords on you so that you cannot turn from one side to the other. You have completed the days of your siege.” Whoa, whoa. 00:02:35:09 - 00:02:36:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That was a lot. 00:02:37:01 - 00:02:38:11 Rev. Brittany That was a lot. 00:02:38:11 - 00:02:43:22 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Pressure, a lot of stress. Maybe chronic stress, ongoing stress. 00:02:43:23 - 00:03:18:11 Rev. Brittany Lots of stress, I see. So, Ezekiel is one of the prophets of Jerusalem and one of the prophets that we hear about often. But Ezekiel, to me, sometimes gets a bad rep. Just to give you a little theological feedback on him: he was born in Jerusalem around 623 BC to a prominent, high-ranking priestly family. So just thinking about, you know, you don't just become a prophet because you're a prophet. 00:03:18:11 - 00:03:41:07 Rev. Brittany You usually get this word from God, but a lot of times come from a priestly line, right? So, I'm thinking about all of the pressure that must be on him to come from a father who was a priest, and a priestly line, generation after generation. So, what that looked like for him. So, he spent part of his life serving as a priest in the kingdom of Judah before the Babylonian exile. 00:03:41:07 - 00:04:07:06 Rev. Brittany But then he was deported forcibly, of course, to Babylon during the second wave of the exiles in 597 BCE, alongside the king of Judah at the time, Jehoiachin. And so, he was approximately 25 years old when he got to that deportation. But then he got this prophecy from God around the age of 30. 00:04:07:09 - 00:04:31:06 Rev. Brittany And so, he's dealing with all of this stress, I think, especially from going from living in the place that he was born in, the place that his family was to now this totally different experience of being in exile, not just moving right, but being in exile. So, I just thought I'd give you a little bit of feedback on who he was and where he was. 00:04:31:10 - 00:04:43:19 Rev. Brittany I also thought it was interesting when I was reading in the commentaries that he was settled in a refugee camp alongside an irrigation canal, and he spent the rest of his life in Mesopotamia. 00:04:43:21 - 00:04:47:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So that's good context. Yes, for that verse. 00:04:47:18 - 00:04:48:09 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:04:48:10 - 00:05:03:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And just think of all the pressure coming from his lineage, but then the pressure coming from being now a prophet. Right. And then the hardship in the exile. Right. That's a lot for one person to bear. 00:05:03:01 - 00:05:20:12 Rev. Brittany Yeah. For sure. And you know what stuck out to me in this scripture? The reason that Ezekiel sticks out talking about mental health is because he's often known as the wild or crazy prophet, right? Because his prophecies are a little more. 00:05:20:14 - 00:05:43:08 Rev. Brittany Extreme than some of the prophets of old and even the ones that come after him. But what really stuck out to me was this idea of him having this prophecy come from God, and now it is his responsibility to bear the guilt, the shame, and the punishment of Israel. 00:05:43:10 - 00:05:59:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's a lot to carry. Correct. I wonder, you know, the state of his mental health. Exactly. Like, who does he go to to kind of offload all of that? And then he's in exile. Exile with whom? 00:05:59:15 - 00:06:11:00 Rev. Brittany Other deportees have been. You know, the king had been deported as well, but he wasn't alone physically. But I think the weight of what he was carrying. 00:06:11:01 - 00:06:29:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Was unique to him. And probably not a lot of people could relate to that. Exactly. Sounds like a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure might be similar to those in leadership roles. He was clearly in leadership. So how isolating and lonely that could feel? Yeah, absolutely. 00:06:29:17 - 00:06:54:10 Rev. Brittany I mean, for caregivers in general, whether it's professional or just, you know, folks who are caring for their loved ones, I think there is a lot of responsibility placed on folks, and they're doing the good thing and the good, faithful thing, but often don't necessarily know how to unpack it or where to put down some of the burden as they continue to care for others. 00:06:54:10 - 00:07:14:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And sometimes how to even take a step back and realize, like, I'm a caregiver. I need to also look in the mirror and care give for myself, right? Otherwise, we're going to go to burnout. We covered that in last episode. We're going to go to depletion, and then we're not going to be any good for caregiving for those around us. 00:07:14:12 - 00:07:15:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right. 00:07:15:06 - 00:07:38:09 Rev. Brittany I also think, you know, like this. So, Israel is being punished because they have not been faithful to the commandments of God. They have fallen away. They have, you know, created idols. There's a lot of backbiting. They're not taking care of the poor. So, God's pretty upset with them, based on what Ezekiel is talking about. 00:07:38:10 - 00:08:16:23 Rev. Brittany Right. And so, I think about some of the trauma that comes from generations before you that you didn't even realize all of these things have happened. But there's this burden that's put on you, whether you're the first-generation graduate in your family or you're, you know, a first-generation immigrant family, whatever. There's sometimes this huge ancestral pressure that's put on folks to bear the shame or even not always the shame, but to bear this perfection. 00:08:17:03 - 00:08:26:00 Rev. Brittany Right? That feels like you don't know what to do. You don't know where to go, because there's just such a huge weight that's been put on your shoulders. You know. 00:08:26:00 - 00:08:57:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT You're talking about generational trauma, right? In a sense, which could feel very heavy. We might not even know specifically where this burden is coming from. There is a study that came out. It started in 1995. You might recall it's called the ACEs study, the Adverse Childhood Experiences study. It's like this pinnacle study in the mental health field. 00:08:57:03 - 00:09:40:13 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And they talk about trauma. They talk about trauma specifically in childhood, not just factors like chronic stressors when the child is five. They even look at, like, in utero, what was happening to the mother. Right. So, all of these generational factors—poverty, immigration, stress, domestic violence—all of those things shape us in utero. Even if the mother is experiencing any of these traumas, that can be passed down to the child in utero, and then that could shape our biology. It could shape the way our brain is wired. 00:09:40:14 - 00:10:04:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right? So, the architecture of our brain is being shaped in utero and in infancy from all of these generational like traumas and patterns that have been passed down. So that is pretty heavy. That's what you're talking about here. That's what we're seeing in the Scripture, is all of this burden passed down from generation to generation. And then how does that shape us as an individual? 00:10:04:12 - 00:10:32:23 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT How does that shape us in managing how we deal with chronic stress in our life? How do we show up in relationships because of that? That impacts us, and we could be compromised, severely compromised. Absolutely. And not just on a relational level. I know that that can also shape our biology. We could have heart issues, we could have diabetes, we can have immuno-compromised systems because of all of that. 00:10:33:00 - 00:11:04:14 Rev. Brittany Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Right. Absolutely. There's a book, My Grandmother's Hands, that talks about this generational trauma that's passed down through genetics, right. This epigenetic kind of experience. And so, when you think about an oppressed people—and not just an oppressed people, but I'm talking about Ezekiel specifically—when you think about an oppressed people, you're thinking about generations of having to survive and having to create something out of nothing. 00:11:04:14 - 00:11:35:08 Rev. Brittany And this hope for a better future. And still the shame that's associated with not having it all together or the mistakes that have been made, you know, by previous generations. Right. So, when we talk about this idea that these things are passed down from generation to generation, it takes folks acknowledging it and realizing, like, “that is a part of my story, but it's not my shame to carry.” 00:11:35:14 - 00:11:40:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And I think it's also like what you're saying is. 00:11:40:13 - 00:12:04:02 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT “This might not just be me and how I'm handling this stress,” right? Because sometimes that shame goes. We carry that shame because we just look at it as just us. And yes, we are responsible for managing us, right? There are so many ways to do that. But we have to also look at this has maybe been transferred down to me in my biology. 00:12:04:02 - 00:12:37:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I'm maybe more predisposed to things like anxiety and depression because of the suffering of my ancestors. I may be more predisposed to co-occurring disorders like substance abuse. There's substance abuse disorders, but usually that shows up hand in hand with anxiety and depression. It's not usually just alone by itself. It usually co-occurs with other issues. So, our genetics are imprinted and altered because of all of what came before us. 00:12:37:04 - 00:13:08:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, this trauma, this generational trauma, impacts how our nervous system is wired. Right. There's the parasympathetic nervous system and then the sympathetic nervous system. So, the sympathetic nervous system is like people refer to it as the fight-or-flight system. So, when there is stress or a threat present, how do we then regulate ourselves in order to either fight or flight to keep ourselves safe? 00:13:08:11 - 00:13:39:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. So, when we have maybe a predisposition to anxiety, that automatic nervous system is then overactive and we could show up as I'm fighting all the time and I can't calm down, I can't seem to regulate myself or I am flighty, I avoid, I procrastinate or even freeze. So that's kind of what shows up in my office with my clients is like understanding what's going on with your nervous system. 00:13:39:20 - 00:13:45:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There is chronic stress. Yeah. When you're feeling debilitated in some ways. Yeah. 00:13:45:02 - 00:13:54:04 Rev. Brittany And you know, I mean, it's so I don't think that we talk enough in our society about the nervous system. 00:13:54:09 - 00:13:54:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT You know. 00:13:54:11 - 00:14:15:10 Rev. Brittany And like what happens with the nervous system. I was telling one of my friends—we were in Hawaii, and I just felt like in my life, everything is just quick, you know what I mean? And I'm just moving really quickly through things. And we were just outside at the beach, and we were looking at the stars, and I was like, “okay, well, we can go now.” 00:14:15:10 - 00:14:34:09 Rev. Brittany And she was like, “you can just take your time, Brittany.” And I thought, “wow, I can just take my time. Like, everything doesn't have to be this very rushed moment.” But I have spent so much of my life getting the next thing done that my nervous system isn't properly regulated, you know, paying attention to that. Right. 00:14:34:10 - 00:15:02:06 Rev. Brittany And obviously we're talking about predispositions and things like that and, you know, family and all of those kinds of things. I was also thinking about the true way that shame and guilt can physically weigh on the body, you know? And so, as he's being, like, he has to put these—what was it?—the punishment on the left side. 00:15:02:07 - 00:15:27:04 Rev. Brittany Right. These heavy anchors or whatever on his—that metal iron plate. He has to put an iron plate on his left side and on his right side, one after the other. And an iron plate does not sound light. It is not a feather that he's putting on, you know. And so, I think about sometimes not just the guilt and shame of past generations, but some of your own failures. 00:15:27:05 - 00:15:43:16 Rev. Brittany Right? Like Ezekiel grew up in Jerusalem, in Judea. So, he was also a part of that sinful, you know, whatever, turning away from God. Right. And so, I think that some of his, some of the prophecy that's coming from him is generational. 00:15:47:11 - 00:16:01:18 Rev. Brittany Right. But I also think that it may be his own shame also kind of wrapped up in that. And so, Sheilah, can you speak to how shame operates and how guilt operates, and how to maybe parse those out? 00:16:01:19 - 00:16:32:18 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah, there's a difference between shame and guilt. And Dr. Brené Brown, who's an amazing author and podcaster, is amazing in the mental health community for all of her contributions. She talks a lot about shame and guilt, and how it manifests in our body, how we physically can be ill because of that. But there is a difference. Shame tells us that we are wrong, that there's something wrong with us, that we are broken in some ways. 00:16:32:22 - 00:17:04:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And guilt is the healthier. And they're kind of parallel. But guilt is a healthier way that tells us that we did something wrong. And that's a healthy thing, to have accountability, right? To feel bad about wronging somebody, or working against our values, or disobeying God. Right. We want to be able to experience guilt because that is something that can be used to correct our path and be used as a compass. 00:17:04:22 - 00:17:28:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT But the shame piece is a lie, and that tells us that there's something innately wrong with us. So sometimes when I'm working with my clients, we kind of have to understand, what is their self-talk like? Is there a lot of “I'm wrong. There's a malfunction within me. I'm broken,” versus, “hold on, let's just look at your behaviors,” right? 00:17:28:11 - 00:17:58:13 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Because the way they're narrating their life is as if there is no correcting them, as opposed to, actually, let's correct some behaviors, and then let's encourage more positive, affirming self-talk, which can be hard to do if you grew up and there was a lot of shaming, abuse, and neglect. And again, back to those generational patterns of anxiety, depression, domestic violence, right? 00:17:58:14 - 00:18:09:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So that could be harder for some people to kind of uncouple from the shame and just focus more on the guilt and how that could be a healthy experience. 00:18:09:12 - 00:18:36:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. So, when I think about that, it's almost like the tape that plays in your head, right? The self-talk that we have, the stories, the stories. Right. And some people have neutral self-talk, right? Where things have happened, it is what it is, and they don't feel one or two ways about it. There are people who may have a more self-aggrandizing self-talk, right, where they can't really see any of their faults. 00:18:36:02 - 00:19:00:14 Rev. Brittany And then there are folks who have just such negative self-talk where they feel like nothing that they do is worthy of being loved or acknowledged. And that, to me, shows that on either side, other than the neutral—I think maybe neutral is not the right word—but I think both of those can lead to mental health crisis in different ways. 00:19:00:15 - 00:19:22:20 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Absolutely. Self-talk is so powerful. It's essentially the relationship we have with ourselves. Right. What are we playing over and over in our minds? If we're telling ourselves that we're horrible, yeah, right, we're going to go out and we're probably not going to make the best choices, or we're not going to go after opportunities that maybe God wants us to go after, or that we're incompetent. 00:19:22:21 - 00:19:43:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT If we keep on telling ourselves, like, “I'm an imposter,” we're going to show up in that way, where we're not taking on the roles that we need to take on. Yeah. If we have a more positive relationship with ourselves, with affirming ourselves and rewriting the script—if it's a negative script and tape that we're playing over in our minds—we are. 00:19:43:21 - 00:19:51:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We're going to be able to empower ourselves to kind of do the opposite of the negative that's been played over and over. Does that make sense? 00:19:51:15 - 00:19:54:14 Rev. Brittany Yeah, absolutely. I think it's very intentional, though. 00:19:54:16 - 00:19:56:01 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's an intentional practice. 00:19:56:05 - 00:20:00:04 Rev. Brittany Very intentional, very mindful practice of, like— 00:20:00:06 - 00:20:21:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT The thing is, our conditioning is so important. So, if we're, from a young child, growing up in a household where there is a lot of demeaning talk, where there's a lot of negativity, that is already wiring ourselves to look for the negative and to beat ourselves up in our head. So, we have to then be intentional about, now as an adult. 00:20:21:10 - 00:20:44:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Does this script, does this self-talk work for me? Does this align with how I actually want to be in the world? So sometimes people don't even realize, because they've been conditioned from early on to have this kind of negative self-talk and negative relationship with themselves. They don't even realize that there is another option. Yeah. So, when I work with clients, it's really understanding. 00:20:44:14 - 00:21:06:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And we go through in the first session: What was their life like? What did it feel like in your home? How did your parents talk to each other? Were there even two parents available? What happened to the one, you know? And then, how did they talk to you? Because the way parents talk to their child, that becomes their self-talk. 00:21:06:01 - 00:21:16:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. So, we have to be very, very intentional, even as parents, of like, how are we conditioning? How are we programming our children to have relationship with themselves? 00:21:16:04 - 00:21:47:14 Rev. Brittany Yeah, that's really, really, really good. Because you were talking about children being formed in utero in those pathways that are happening. And sometimes I think that people assume that children are not people in that way. They forget that the things that we say and the ways that we interact with them are imprinting on their minds, and that they will grow up to receive or believe that information is true. 00:21:47:15 - 00:22:02:09 Rev. Brittany Right. Even when you don't intend for those things to happen. And so there are families that are more abusive, and there are some who are just dysfunctional and not intentionally thinking that they're causing. 00:22:02:10 - 00:22:39:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT This just might not know because, again, of their generational patterns. What are the patterns passed down exactly? How did families show up for me? What kind of things did we talk about in the home? How did your parents talk to you? And how did grandma's parents talk to her? It's an interesting phenomenon that sometimes, when I work with first-time parents, I have to encourage them to really have relationship and talk with their children, because that does matter, even if the child is preverbal. 00:22:39:08 - 00:23:05:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And I guess this goes more so with parents struggling with postpartum depression and anxiety. Sometimes there's so much fatigue, anxiety, and depression that it becomes hard to bond with the child. And sometimes people just don't know. They don't have this understanding that from utero, it matters what we're saying to our child and how we're conditioning our child. Again, we are developing their self-talk. 00:23:05:06 - 00:23:14:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So even when these children are preverbal, it's important to already start that script for them. Yeah. The positive scripts. Right. Yeah. 00:23:14:05 - 00:23:47:18 Rev. Brittany And I think about back to Ezekiel, if his father was this priest and he comes from this priestly line, I just think the comparison—they always say that comparison is the thief of joy. And when you are tasked with responsibility that has been given to you based on familial relationships and so on, I think that can play a huge role in how you see yourself, because you're comparing yourself to what you've seen, what you've heard. 00:23:47:19 - 00:24:13:23 Rev. Brittany Right. And you may not be anything like that, and that is okay. But when you have this comparison that you don't match up to, that perfectionism can feel overwhelming in a sense. Right? And then there are ways in which I think sometimes people grow up in traumatic homes, and they vow to themselves that they're going to be the total opposite of that. 00:24:14:02 - 00:24:24:19 Rev. Brittany But sometimes when you're just trying to be the opposite of something, you're not giving yourself space to be anything other than what you don't want to be. Right? 00:24:24:23 - 00:24:28:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Because you're focused in the fear, correct? Rather than being that. 00:24:28:12 - 00:24:53:16 Rev. Brittany Exactly, rather than developing who you actually are and figuring out what you like and what you don't like. But if you spend your whole life, or you spend your adolescence, just trying to not be what your mom and your dad were, and not really focusing or thinking about who you are, you don't spend a lot of time thinking about who you are and how you can, you know, take the meat and spit out the bone. 00:24:53:18 - 00:24:54:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right. 00:24:54:06 - 00:24:55:05 Rev. Brittany And navigate that. 00:24:55:06 - 00:25:13:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And it's like it becomes an identity, right? Like, I don't want to be X, Y, and Z in the home that we didn't like. I don't want to be a single mom. I don't want to be in a domestic violence situation. I don't want to be X, Y, and Z, which, you know, that can be helpful to understand. 00:25:13:00 - 00:25:35:06 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I want to acclimate myself differently, if you can help it. But then that becomes an identity, versus actually, our identity isn't in the traumas, right? Our identity is in Christ, right? So, who am I in Christ versus I'm finding myself saturated in the identity of my past, right? 00:25:35:09 - 00:25:45:23 Rev. Brittany That's good. That's good, Sheilah. And I think the reason that I don't like God in this text, or how Ezekiel describes God in this text. 00:25:46:00 - 00:25:47:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Well, there was a lot of punishing. 00:25:47:04 - 00:26:08:06 Rev. Brittany It's a lot of punishing, and there's a lot of shame. And I don't think that God operates that way. I think that when we start to see God as this punishing God, as this God who wants us to contort ourselves based on the things that our ancestors have done or the mistakes that we've made in our lives. 00:26:08:06 - 00:26:28:03 Rev. Brittany I don't think that that is the life that God has for us, especially not the God that we know and that we serve in my brain. Right. And so, when I read this, I'm like, if someone else were—I mean, as people read this, I'm sure it can be like, “Yikes. Maybe I should take on this burden and put on my iron plate.” 00:26:28:03 - 00:26:39:09 Rev. Brittany But I really don't think that that is what God has for us. And I think that that's a part of sometimes people suffer for so long because they believe that they deserve to. 00:26:39:11 - 00:26:41:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. Again, that's that shame. 00:26:41:22 - 00:26:42:15 Rev. Brittany Exactly. 00:26:42:16 - 00:27:04:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Living in the shame versus if we have relationship with God and there is something wrong, right, or there's something that we feel guilty of, then trusting that if we go to him and there is apology and there is a heartfelt, sincere “I won't do this again,” or “I want to be different,” this repentance—I'm scanning my brain. 00:27:04:11 - 00:27:14:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT If there's this repentance, we have to trust that he has forgiven. So, who are we to hold that over us as if we have a higher standard than God? 00:27:14:12 - 00:27:32:13 Rev. Brittany Than God. You know, I think the Scripture that I always think of is that “You are beautifully and wonderfully made in God's own image.” And if I believe that, you know, people make mistakes. We have all not done the thing that we were supposed to do, or could have done something differently, or hurt someone's feelings—whatever that is. 00:27:32:14 - 00:27:55:23 Rev. Brittany But like you said, I don't think God wants us to live in the shame, but to acknowledge what we've done and to move on to a different way of being, right? So that we're not contorted like Ezekiel is, and we're not laying on our side for 300 and—how many days? I think it was 390. 390 days. 00:27:55:23 - 00:28:21:14 Rev. Brittany That's more than a year. How long do we have to stay bound by the shame of whether it's others or our own shame that keeps us believing that we're not good enough? And that obviously leads to depression and anxiety, and some of the other mental health challenges that people face. 00:28:21:16 - 00:28:46:03 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And sometimes we're in that place of, like, we're bound because we're only looking inwards, and then we're ruminating. Ruminating thoughts are just over and over thoughts, repeated thoughts. And we're analyzing over and over: What did I do wrong? How come I'm defective? Why didn't my life turn out differently? It's an internal posture versus a posture of looking upwards to God and understanding. 00:28:46:04 - 00:28:58:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Hold on. How does he want me to understand who I am? And then also looking around at our community and seeking that wise counsel to remind us that our identity isn't in our suffering. Correct? 00:28:59:00 - 00:29:07:21 Rev. Brittany I love that, Sheilah. Our identity is not in our suffering, because I think people struggle with that really well. 00:29:07:21 - 00:29:22:09 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Some people use it as a badge of honor sometimes, too. I struggled more, I suffered more, and so that should mean something for me. Not everybody feels that way, but there are some people that wear it as a badge of honor. Yeah. 00:29:22:11 - 00:29:41:21 Rev. Brittany Yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. This has been really great. My follow-up with this is that Ezekiel is, I think, teaching us in a way that he's not saying aloud. 00:29:41:22 - 00:29:42:07 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Right. 00:29:42:10 - 00:30:12:20 Rev. Brittany But I always believe that the Scriptures are still speaking to us, and that's why they're holy text. Right. What does that say about boundaries? Like, how do we care for our community without being so constrained to making sure that they know that they're cared for, right? 00:30:12:21 - 00:30:15:14 Rev. Brittany Like, how do we create a boundary? 00:30:15:15 - 00:30:50:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. Boundaries are really important for our overall mental health. It seems so simplistic, but we have to practice saying no. Yeah. We have to practice saying, “No, I can't,” or “I've reached my limit,” instead of working towards depletion. We are also a society and a culture of people pleasing. Yes, especially women, especially women of color who are trying to achieve certain things and be in certain rooms and have certain roles that we feel like we have to do the most to prove and earn the things. 00:30:50:13 - 00:31:19:16 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And so, we have to practice saying no. And that's allowing ourselves to honor our limitations, our God-given limitations, because we are created by him. We're not meant to do it all. And also, we have to be assertive, which is self-advocacy. So, there is a spectrum of assertiveness. Yeah. Assertive is right in the middle. That's where we want to kind of be at. 00:31:19:17 - 00:31:43:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT And that models, “I have a voice. What I feel, what I say matters. But I'm also respectful of your voice.” Yeah. Then all the way over here on that spectrum is passive. We do ourselves no good if we're passive, because then we don't have a voice. We're not honoring how we feel, and we're not sharing with other people our limitations. 00:31:43:23 - 00:32:05:19 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, their voice matters. And then all the way over here is aggressive. We don't want to be aggressive. That's “my way or the highway.” That's, “I don't care what you have to say.” So, we want to be somewhere in the middle, and that's honoring our boundaries and being assertive and advocating for ourselves. But that's also modeling to those around us that you can also set up those boundaries. 00:32:05:19 - 00:32:12:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT You can advocate and be assertive for yourself and for your family, for your coworkers and your neighbors. 00:32:12:04 - 00:32:14:12 Rev. Brittany Boundary is not a bad word. 00:32:14:12 - 00:32:16:21 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's not, and no is not a bad word either. 00:32:16:22 - 00:32:19:14 Rev. Brittany No is not a bad word. 00:32:19:16 - 00:32:20:08 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah. 00:32:20:10 - 00:32:36:02 Rev. Brittany I think it protects and preserves us for the things that we can say yes to, the things that would be more life-giving to us in general, and to the people that we're called to love and to work with. You know. Right, Sheilah? 00:32:36:05 - 00:32:37:11 Rev. Brittany This was great. 00:32:37:13 - 00:32:38:14 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT This is wonderful. 00:32:38:15 - 00:32:42:22 Rev. Brittany Did you have any final thoughts before I move into a question? 00:32:43:01 - 00:33:12:04 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT I mean, I have some statistics if we want to get into that because we are talking about mental health. So, I feel like, let's talk about some of the statistics. Yeah. So, per the National Institute of Mental Health, more than 1 in 5 U.S. adults experience a mental illness. That was a survey taken in 2022. So just kind of coming out of the pandemic, that was about 59 million people. 00:33:12:07 - 00:33:40:05 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT That's probably still accurate for today. And globally, 1 in 8 people live with a mental health disorder. Some other interesting stats are: Young adults aged 18 to 25 consistently report the highest rates of mental illness amongst that adult age group. So, we have to wonder why that is. We have to think about social media usage, the economic pressures, loneliness. 00:33:40:06 - 00:34:08:11 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT So, the 18 to 25 demographic age range is struggling the most. Yeah. Also, there was a Harvard Business Review article released in April of 2025 saying that the number one way people are using AI is for therapy supplementation and for companionship. So, what does that say about us? 00:34:08:12 - 00:34:09:06 Rev. Brittany We're lonely. 00:34:09:07 - 00:34:34:00 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT We're lonely. But then also there's still stigma around mental health. Yeah, there's stigma, or there's accessibility issues. So, the cost is too prohibitive. Also, there's maybe a shortage of therapists. But we have to think, okay, we're turning somewhere. Could we also be turning up as well? Yeah. Right. But we're using AI. So, I thought that was really interesting. 00:34:34:01 - 00:35:00:10 Rev. Brittany Funny thing before I go into—I use AI sometimes to generate questions and blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And I have had to explain to this technological resource that you are a technological resource. You are—I don't like this, you know. And so, I wonder how it is for people who are really seeking true companionship or true advice from these AI-generated conversations, from technology. 00:35:00:11 - 00:35:03:23 Rev. Brittany It just really shows us that it's a very slippery slope. 00:35:04:00 - 00:35:28:01 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT It's a very slippery slope. And I think we have to have conversations early with our children about how we use AI. Absolutely. And seeking companionship or getting advice, we have to be very critical in thinking how we use it and how we discern the information on there. There's even a lot of subcultures of people who are finding companions with their AI. 00:35:28:03 - 00:35:47:10 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT There's podcasts. Therapist Dr. Esther Perel has a podcast where she interviews an individual and his AI companion, and they believe they're in love. But that's an interesting kind of tangent. Yeah. 00:35:47:12 - 00:36:12:12 Rev. Brittany We are living in a time where I think we have to be aware of our mental health. We have to know when we need help, ask for help, and receive help. And there are things that we can do on our own. But I think that God gave us therapists as a resource for us. Right? It doesn't negate our faith to say, “I need to talk to someone about the issues in my tissues.” 00:36:12:12 - 00:36:13:13 Rev. Brittany Is that what they say? 00:36:13:14 - 00:36:40:17 Sheilah Cameron, LMFT Yeah, I love that. But we also, from a social justice lens, have to inform ourselves and vote accordingly as well. Correct. For the funding for mental health, for accessibility, for how people therapists are trained. So, there's also the social justice lens of this too, that we need to make change and vote accordingly. 00:36:40:19 - 00:37:11:09 Rev. Brittany Sheilah Cameron, you are a delight. Thank you so much for your expertise in this conversation. It felt just so natural to talk to you about all of these things. Those of you who may have extra questions about what's going on with your own mental health, I implore you to reach out to the New Life Counseling Center. Reach out to Sheilah, and she and her team can offer you some additional resources and some support if you find yourself struggling. We are here for you in any way that we can be. 00:37:11:10 - 00:37:32:13 Rev. Brittany And as we depart from this podcast, we just have a few questions that we'd like for you to ponder: How do you recognize when your responsibilities have become too heavy, and what signs tell you that you need rest or support? Our second question is: What boundaries can you establish to care for yourself while still remaining compassionate toward others? 00:37:32:13 - 00:37:49:07 Rev. Brittany And thirdly: How might God be inviting you to acknowledge pain honestly rather than carrying it in silence? Mental health is important. God is with you, and we are too. Until next time. Bye. 00:37:49:09 - 00:38:02:21 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org.