00:00:00:16 - 00:00:30:00 Rev. Trudy I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson, and I am from the First United Methodist Church of San Diego, and I am very excited to begin conversations with this man who is sitting with me. I would like to introduce to you Dr. Karl Martin. He is a professor of American culture by vocation. He's retired from Point Loma Nazarene University of San Diego, and he has agreed to have a series of conversation with us. 00:00:30:02 - 00:00:59:22 Rev. Trudy And this is what we're calling it. It is: The Landscape of the White Church and the American Nation. And I'm so very glad to have somebody who has studied this for most of your career. Stumbled upon it, perhaps. But you've done some deep dives into this, and this is important information. I know that many people are very uncomfortable with politics in the church. 00:01:00:00 - 00:01:20:15 Rev. Trudy But the reality is, they are already here. Politics is already in the church, and we need to be able to recognize it, and to understand it, and to hear what it's saying about God and about ourselves and about the hopes of God. And so, that's what this is all about. Did I get that about right? Yeah. 00:01:20:15 - 00:01:22:09 Dr. Karl I'm happy. I'm happy with that. 00:01:22:11 - 00:01:23:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:24:00 - 00:01:26:03 Dr. Karl Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. 00:01:26:07 - 00:01:47:04 Rev. Trudy There will be a series of conversations. We'll be talking. You'll be talking with Rev. Dr. Hannah Ka and Rev. Dr. Brittany Juliette Hanlin, and I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun, and it'll hurt our heart in some way. Yeah. I'm so glad you have joined us. Thank you. 00:01:49:14 - 00:02:17:10 Rev. Trudy I'm glad to be back with you. Thank you. So far, the conversation has been just amazing. And so very helpful. Okay. You know, for me, this whole idea, the whole concept, is relatively new to me. But as you start naming what American exceptionalism is and what Christian nationalism kind of looks like, I'm aware more deeply in 00:02:17:12 - 00:02:42:12 Rev. Trudy it's always been with me. And because it's new information, I'm like a new convert, I kind of … we need to tell everybody this, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I do that, I think, because it's personal to me, and I wonder, is this personal for you, as well? 00:02:42:14 - 00:03:12:18 Dr. Karl It is so personal. Yeah. Let's see. I think that, partly it is, I went …. well, partly it’s this. That I'm aware that I'm in a congregation, most congregations I've ever been a part of, I know more about American culture and American cultural history than most of my congregants, and there's nothing special about that. If I were a biochemist, I'd know more about biochemistry than. 00:03:12:19 - 00:03:13:17 Rev. Trudy Sure. Yeah. 00:03:13:22 - 00:03:27:02 Dr. Karl But the fact is, that I am. Have made American culture my life's work. And I'm trying to understand American culture and talk about it. My life's work means that I'm very aware. 00:03:27:04 - 00:03:27:18 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:03:27:18 - 00:03:42:07 Dr. Karl And so, I come into worship very aware. Yeah. And of these issues and, again, trying to make sure that the highest calling of my life is my discipleship to Jesus. 00:03:42:08 - 00:03:43:03 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:03:43:05 - 00:04:06:03 Dr. Karl And recognizing the temptation that I feel when I hear a public figure or a politician or an entertainer, whoever, who articulates a vision of America that deeply resonates with me. I know how tempting it is for me to kind of make that sacred. Yeah. To make, to kind of Christianize that. 00:04:06:03 - 00:04:07:10 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:04:07:12 - 00:04:23:00 Dr. Karl And then to try to take a step back has been very important for me to say, okay, don't, that's not where your hope lies, right? Your hope doesn't lie in that vision of America. Your hope lies in the gospel. Your hope lies in the church. 00:04:23:02 - 00:04:24:22 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:04:25:00 - 00:04:26:06 Dr. Karl Keep that focus. 00:04:26:07 - 00:04:27:00 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:04:27:02 - 00:04:39:18 Dr. Karl Yes. Again, so that I don't slip into the place where I start thinking about the nation as God's vehicle. 00:04:39:20 - 00:04:40:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:04:40:11 - 00:04:45:20 Dr. Karl Because if I do that, then I've lost the prophetic voice. 00:04:45:22 - 00:04:50:12 Dr. Karl To speak the truth. To that nation. 00:04:50:14 - 00:05:03:19 Dr. Karl When it needs to hear that truth. Yeah. What is that the Old Testament theologian Walter Brueggemann calls it the royal consciousness. Yes. That if we embrace the royal consciousness, if we allow that to kind of seep in. 00:05:03:20 - 00:05:04:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:05:04:09 - 00:05:05:21 Dr. Karl Then the prophetic voice is muted. 00:05:05:22 - 00:05:06:18 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:05:06:20 - 00:05:23:02 Dr. Karl And so, for me, yeah, very personal. In part, again, not because I think, like a kind of an “us and them.” Because I'm, I really recognize in myself the draw of that. 00:05:23:04 - 00:05:28:18 Dr. Karl Yes. Of that beautiful vision of what the American nation could be. 00:05:28:19 - 00:05:29:19 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:05:29:21 - 00:05:40:06 Dr. Karl And the tendency then when I hear a voice that's articulating that, to think that's the voice of God. Right. Yeah. And to remember it's like, “No, it's not. It's not.” 00:05:40:06 - 00:05:41:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:05:41:13 - 00:05:44:11 Dr. Karl And so. Yeah, it's. 00:05:44:11 - 00:06:09:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Personal. I know it's personal for a lot of folks that might be listening. You know, we are in this point in time in our nation where it's hard to talk across differences. And I know that in families there are, you know, depending on who you voted for, you're either friends with that family member or you're not. Or you've kind of haven't talked and talk to them for years. 00:06:09:10 - 00:06:39:16 Rev. Trudy Right? So, it is personal. And the idea that faith has a layer in that dynamic, and separates us, is personal. And I know I felt it, just being a pastor and loving my congregation. And loving the people that I preach to every week, and not wanting to say some of the prophetic things that we would want to say. 00:06:39:16 - 00:06:55:00 Rev. Trudy And I really loved it when you had said earlier that, you know, the prophetic voice has been muted. And that's a sad scenario because God is always trying to help us be better. Right. 00:06:55:04 - 00:07:09:15 Dr. Karl And can I, I just I hope this isn't too much of a digression here, but one of the things that is part of the American experience is that oftentimes the call … when there's a call for reform in America. 00:07:09:15 - 00:07:10:05 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:10:06 - 00:07:20:19 Dr. Karl It is oftentimes a call to be “more American.” Yeah. What we need to do if we're going to see America flourish, we need to be more American. 00:07:20:21 - 00:07:23:15 Dr. Karl And that of course, depends on how you define American. 00:07:23:17 - 00:07:24:07 Rev. Trudy Exactly. 00:07:25:22 - 00:07:48:00 Dr. Karl This goes so, so deep in our cultural history. Yeah. And so, but one of the things that it does is it pushes us back into the past. And one of the things that studying the prophets helped me to see is that the prophet's message is not to go back to the past. The prophet message is God wants to do a new thing. 00:07:48:02 - 00:07:48:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:49:01 - 00:07:57:05 Dr. Karl Where the American reform movements are so much are oftentimes is like, exactly, “we need to recover something about being American that we've lost.” 00:07:57:06 - 00:07:57:20 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:07:57:21 - 00:08:06:22 Dr. Karl “And then we'll be okay.” Where the prophetic message is much more, “God wants to do a new thing and we may not know what that is.” 00:08:07:00 - 00:08:07:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:08:07:19 - 00:08:09:16 Dr. Karl “And so, we'd better be paying attention.” 00:08:09:17 - 00:08:12:20 Rev. Trudy Yes. Yes. Exactly. Oh yeah. 00:08:13:00 - 00:08:31:06 Dr. Karl That, to me, that's part of the muting of that prophetic voice, is that the American tradition has so frequently been “we're Americans.” And then there's other folks who are un-American. And what we need to do “is correct those un-American folks. So, we can all be American.” 00:08:31:06 - 00:08:32:07 Rev. Trudy Right? Right. 00:08:32:10 - 00:08:33:17 Dr. Karl And those terms are so hard. 00:08:33:19 - 00:09:10:06 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Earlier in the conversation you had talked about asking people whether or not they can be folded into the American experience and with the kind of tension in the air that we feel with folks who are different in theological beliefs. I wondered if you think it might ever get to the point where people who are Christian, but not that kind of Christian, would be considered not able to fully be folded into the American experience. 00:09:10:12 - 00:09:29:06 Dr. Karl Yeah. Well, we, Yes. Yeah. We certainly have had moments in our history where this has been the case. Yeah. Well, you could go back to the American Revolution, where Quakers in Philadelphia who were simply saying, “we are pacifists.” 00:09:29:07 - 00:09:30:00 Rev. Trudy Right. We are. 00:09:30:00 - 00:09:49:16 Dr. Karl We are not loyalists. We are not revolutionaries. We’re refusing to take part in this. Yeah. Were arrested. Because they were not sufficiently revolutionary. They were, their objection to war was interpreted as loyalty to Britain. 00:09:49:18 - 00:09:50:09 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:09:50:09 - 00:10:11:06 Dr. Karl And they were arrested. Wow. Okay. So, and you can certainly push that forward to any time when America has gone to war. And we've had Christian brothers and sisters who have said, “I am a conscientious objector. I will not …” Their patriotism has certainly been called into question by some of their brothers and sisters in Christ. 00:10:11:08 - 00:10:12:07 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. 00:10:12:07 - 00:10:23:00 Dr. Karl So, to think that we're, we couldn't get to that point again, right. Would be to deny our national history, which shows us that we're we've been there before. 00:10:23:01 - 00:10:31:04 Rev. Trudy That's right. That's right. I never even considered the proclamation of being a pacifist as being something that would not be honored. 00:10:31:06 - 00:10:52:22 Dr. Karl Well, yeah. It was not honored by the revolutionaries. Yeah. In 1776. I think we could also look at what happened, when people who understood themselves to be Christians enslaved other human beings. Right. And others said, “no, you can't you can't be Christian and do that.” 00:10:52:22 - 00:10:53:13 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:10:53:18 - 00:11:02:12 Dr. Karl That's right. And there's … and then their response was, “you can't be Christian and engage in the violence of the abolitionist movement.” So again, we've been there before. 00:11:02:12 - 00:11:03:07 Rev. Trudy Right? 00:11:03:08 - 00:11:04:11 Dr. Karl We've been there before. 00:11:04:14 - 00:11:26:02 Rev. Trudy That's what I find to be so difficult. You know, fighting. Fighting for a different kind of faith, without using the same kind of techniques that others might use. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. 00:11:26:04 - 00:11:47:01 Dr. Karl Yeah, I wonder. I wonder about the idea that we can be Christian in America and make the … and say that the ends justify the means. Right. That I can somehow, because I want this what I perceive to be a Christian. 00:11:47:03 - 00:11:52:06 Dr. Karl And I can engage in behavior that does not at all look like the behavior that Jesus taught. 00:11:52:06 - 00:11:54:06 Rev. Trudy Right? Right. 00:11:54:08 - 00:11:55:21 Dr. Karl That troubles me. 00:11:55:22 - 00:11:56:08 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:11:56:09 - 00:12:12:14 Dr. Karl That troubles me. Because it seems then that I'm making, again, the end, which is … and if that end is some national political national goal, or some aspect of American identity that I want people to embrace, and I'm willing to coerce. 00:12:12:18 - 00:12:13:01 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:12:13:02 - 00:12:18:19 Dr. Karl Use violence. Yeah. To achieve that end. I think we're losing our discipleship to Jesus. 00:12:18:20 - 00:12:49:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I would agree with that. And that has been the pivotal motion or a pivotal point that really convicted me to be a little bit more vocal about what we see happening, and how it is a faith and it is a political situation. Yeah. Yeah. So, you talked about just being very well aware when you walk into a worship space. 00:12:50:00 - 00:13:02:11 Rev. Trudy Has this knowledge affected your Christian faith in other ways? You talked about the temptation to do that, but what about positive ways? Oh, yeah. 00:13:02:13 - 00:13:29:14 Dr. Karl Yeah, I think it's freed me to embrace a level of patriotism that allows me to celebrate the nation while keeping it in its place. And again, I'll come back to Richard John Neuhaus, a great definition of his distinction between the sacred and the secular. That there are secular things that are really good. 00:13:29:16 - 00:13:33:06 Dr. Karl Yeah. They're just, for the time being, they're just good for the time being. 00:13:33:08 - 00:13:33:15 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:13:33:20 - 00:13:49:04 Dr. Karl They're not … we don't project them into the coming kingdom. And think that they're, we're going to need them in that situation. Yeah. But in this moment, that's a really good thing. Yeah. And to have the freedom to celebrate the secular. 00:13:49:06 - 00:13:50:04 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:13:50:06 - 00:14:12:11 Dr. Karl When it's good. When it leads to human flourishing. Right. When it enhances the functioning of our society in good ways. You know, that politics is about kind of free individuals. Ideally, politics is about free individuals coming together and talking about what is best. Yeah, for all of us. 00:14:12:14 - 00:14:13:04 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:14:13:04 - 00:14:41:23 Dr. Karl What is best for. And so, it's fundamentally rooted in compromise. Which again, is, I don't know, trying to recognize when I'm doing political work where I can't compromise with people who do not think the way I think or don't have the goals of the coming kingdom that I have. Right. And when I need to let them know, it's like, yeah, that's not the highest good that I'm, you know, I'm interested in. 00:14:41:23 - 00:14:43:12 Dr. Karl But it is a temporal good. 00:14:43:14 - 00:14:44:13 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. 00:14:44:14 - 00:14:46:17 Dr. Karl And we can, it's better than what we have right now. 00:14:46:17 - 00:14:47:17 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:14:47:17 - 00:14:48:14 Dr. Karl And so, let's make it better than what we have right now. 00:14:48:14 - 00:14:49:12 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:14:49:12 - 00:14:54:11 Dr. Karl Even though we know this is not the, that we're not going to achieve the ultimate good. 00:14:54:12 - 00:14:57:01 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. 00:14:57:03 - 00:15:04:13 Dr. Karl Through our political work. Right. If we can free ourselves up from that. So, that's like my politics is not going to bring, is not going to usher in God's kingdom. 00:15:04:14 - 00:15:06:08 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:15:06:10 - 00:15:10:21 Dr. Karl Then, I, it frees me up to think. But my politics can make things a little bit better. 00:15:11:00 - 00:15:11:12 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:15:11:16 - 00:15:23:13 Dr. Karl But that means I have to listen to my fellow citizens to compromise. We have to think what's possible at the moment. It just seems like a healthier way of expressing my love of neighbor. 00:15:23:15 - 00:15:24:12 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. 00:15:24:12 - 00:15:33:02 Dr. Karl By being willing to work alongside them even when our ultimate goals are not the same. Yeah. Our ultimate vision of the good. Right. It's not the same. 00:15:33:05 - 00:16:00:22 Rev. Trudy Right. Right. You have given us so much to think about. And such good framework, good quotes. This has been such a treat, and I'm grateful to have had this experience, this conversation. I know there's so much more we could be saying. And I'm hoping that everybody who's been listening and watching feels the same way. 00:16:01:00 - 00:16:11:08 Rev. Trudy So, but I have to ask: What do you think you want people to take away from this? If there's only one thing, what would that be? 00:16:11:13 - 00:16:18:10 Dr. Karl Well, okay, but before I say that, let me just say I'm so thankful to have pastors who are welcoming of this conversation. 00:16:18:10 - 00:16:19:10 Rev. Trudy Yeah. Thank you. 00:16:19:15 - 00:16:22:15 Dr. Karl Because that's life giving for me. 00:16:22:17 - 00:16:24:04 Rev. Trudy Good. 00:16:24:06 - 00:16:52:04 Dr. Karl The takeaway, I hope, one of the best compliments I ever got from a student, the year after she graduated, something had happened. I think it was a police-involved shooting of a Black American, an unarmed Black man. And she wrote to me and said “the reading we did together gave me a deeper way of thinking about what I'm reading in the news.” 00:16:52:06 - 00:16:57:08 Rev. Trudy Oh, wow. Yeah. 00:16:57:10 - 00:17:01:10 Dr. Karl Not that it told her what to think, how to think about it, what the answers were. 00:17:01:10 - 00:17:02:00 Rev. Trudy Right. 00:17:02:00 - 00:17:07:11 Dr. Karl But it gave her a deeper way of thinking about it. Yeah. So, that's always my goal. 00:17:07:12 - 00:17:08:01 Rev. Trudy That's right. 00:17:08:06 - 00:17:26:00 Dr. Karl With talking to people about American history, about American culture, is to try to use the reading I've done to try to give them a richer way of thinking about the issues that we all face. Yeah. I'm much more comfortable doing that than trying to think that I've got the answers for everybody. 00:17:26:00 - 00:17:28:14 Rev. Trudy Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 00:17:28:16 - 00:17:48:23 Dr. Karl Yeah. But, and it's also, I guess, an acknowledgment that I'm not always sure. Yeah. That I even understand what I'm looking at. And that I'm understanding it well enough to talk to other people about it. But I'm hoping that together we can enrich the conversation. 00:17:49:01 - 00:17:49:16 Rev. Trudy Yeah. 00:17:49:18 - 00:17:53:19 Dr. Karl By putting it in some context. 00:17:53:21 - 00:18:14:03 Rev. Trudy That's my hope, too. Yeah. That's my hope too. Yeah. I love that. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening and for being part of this study. And if you have any questions that linger in your mind around this topic, I know we've only just skimmed the surface. We would love to hear from you. 00:18:14:03 - 00:18:41:06 Rev. Trudy So please send us an email. If you're a Patreon member, I encourage you to put your question in that chat box. If you are not a member, I encourage you to go to our site and see what we have there. We have our regular podcast of Perspectives is there. It is a way for us to have conversations with folks who might not be near us and cannot be in person. 00:18:41:07 - 00:18:59:06 Rev. Trudy A private conversation. So, I invite you to consider joining Patreon as well. We will continue this conversation and enjoy where it goes in trust and in faith. Yeah. Yes. Thanks for all. 00:18:59:06 - 00:19:02:00 Dr. Karl Thanks. You're very welcome. Thank you. Yeah. 00:19:02:02 - 00:19:18:00 Rev. Trudy This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit FUMCSD.org