00:00:00:16 - 00:00:30:00 Rev. Trudy I'm Reverend Trudy Robinson, and I am from the First United Methodist Church of San Diego, and I am very excited to begin conversations with this man who is sitting with me. I would like to introduce to you Dr. Karl Martin. He is a professor of American culture by vocation. He's retired from Point Loma Nazarene University of San Diego, and he has agreed to have a series of conversation with us. 00:00:30:02 - 00:00:59:22 Rev. Trudy And this is what we're calling it. It is: The Landscape of the White Church and the American Nation. And I'm so very glad to have somebody who has studied this for most of your career. Stumbled upon it, perhaps. But you've done some deep dives into this, and this is important information. I know that many people are very uncomfortable with politics in the church. 00:01:00:00 - 00:01:20:15 Rev. Trudy But the reality is, they are already here. Politics is already in the church, and we need to be able to recognize it, and to understand it, and to hear what it's saying about God and about ourselves and about the hopes of God. And so, that's what this is all about. Did I get that about right? Yeah. 00:01:20:15 - 00:01:22:09 Dr. Karl I'm happy. I'm happy with that. 00:01:22:11 - 00:01:23:23 Rev. Trudy Yeah. I'm really glad you're here. 00:01:24:00 - 00:01:26:03 Dr. Karl Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. 00:01:26:07 - 00:01:47:04 Rev. Trudy There will be a series of conversations. We'll be talking. You'll be talking with Rev. Dr. Hannah Ka and Rev. Dr. Brittany Juliette Hanlin, and I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun, and it'll hurt our heart in some way. Yeah. I'm so glad you have joined us. Thank you. 00:01:47:06 - 00:02:04:12 Rev. Brittany Hi, there. I'm Reverend Brittany, and I am so excited to have a conversation with Karl Martin. We're going to talk a little bit about American exceptionalism. And I have heard the phrase many, many, many, many times, Karl. But it would be wonderful if you would give me your definition of American exceptionalism. 00:02:04:14 - 00:02:27:04 Dr. Karl It's such is such an interesting path for me, because I was introduced to the concept as a graduate student. In an American studies program. And in that context, had very specific definitions. Sometimes quite esoteric definitions. And then it moves, kind of moved into more public discourse. And of course, when it does that, you kind of lose control a little bit about it. 00:02:27:06 - 00:02:56:04 Dr. Karl So, part of it is that America has been an exceptional nation, in our roots. In the amount of freedom that has allowed its citizens, at least its European citizens, initially. And eventually other citizens. The way it had been a, it has been, historically, a kind of a beacon for immigrants from other countries who felt as though their lives would be better in the United States than they were from, that wherever they were come from. 00:02:56:06 - 00:03:46:02 Dr. Karl So, there's no question, I think, that America's role in the world has been exceptional. But a more precise definition of American exceptionalism would be and the idea that America, as a nation, is somehow set apart from all other nations. And for all I know, there's other nations who feel this way as well. But in an American context, this notion that somehow we are set apart, even in its most extreme forms, set apart almost from the flow of history, that we're a timeless space, that what has happened to other nations, other empires, that have risen and fallen, has somehow we've been exempted from that. 00:03:46:04 - 00:04:10:10 Dr. Karl And this is certainly in the language of some of the founders, that they were establishing a republic. And a republic, in their estimation, could be a timeless space, a space that would not be prone to the other kind of rising and falling of nations. There's one scholar … what did he call it? The heavenly city of the of the17th century philosophers. 00:04:10:10 - 00:04:41:22 Dr. Karl Like we have created this place that is going to stand above time. That is when then American exceptionalism really approaches the notion where might blur a line between the role of the nation and the role of the church. That it seems as though Christian teaching has been, “No, the church is the institution that has this particular relationship with God that is part of God's salvation history.” 00:04:42:00 - 00:05:07:22 Dr. Karl But once the nation is seen as that timeless space, it also then at times has been “not only is the nation set apart from other nations, it is set apart by God to assist God in bringing about God's purposes, God's saving purposes in humanity.” This then, I think, leads us to the distinction between what is sacred and what is secular. 00:05:08:00 - 00:05:32:04 Dr. Karl And here I've been really helped by a Catholic thinker named Richard John Newhouse, who describes sacred as “having to do with the saving purposes of God.” And secular is “having to do with the time being like everything else.” Yeah. What I love about that is that it frees us up to think about secular as both positive and negative. 00:05:32:06 - 00:05:57:18 Dr. Karl That there are positive aspects to that or secular that they're not part of God's saving history. But they are good things to have in the world. At least they've proven themselves to be good things to have in the world. For the time being. That's kind of how I think about democracy. Right. There's not … the biblical record is pretty clear that when Jesus returns to establish his kingdom in his fullness, every knee shall bow, every tongue confess. 00:05:57:20 - 00:06:21:17 Dr. Karl We're not going to have to vote about whether we want, you know, every four years, whether we still want Jesus to be our leader. So, but, democracy has proven to be a really good thing. It's just a secular thing. Yeah. It's for the time being. And so, that has helped me kind of like let's keep the nation in the secular category, a really, perhaps, a really good secular thing. 00:06:21:18 - 00:06:30:10 Dr. Karl Yeah. But still a secular thing that is just not going to extend into the coming kingdom. Right. 00:06:30:12 - 00:06:58:15 Rev. Brittany That's really interesting because I've always experienced either people or institutions that are exceptional that then believe that they are the exception to the rule. So, when you're talking about, like, America stands, timeless. Like, you know, as the other empires have shifted and have, you know, risen and fallen, America has always thought of itself outside of that category as though because of its exceptionalism, it is it is exempt. 00:06:58:15 - 00:07:04:12 Rev. Brittany And it, you know, from the rules of what we've seen throughout history. So that's really interesting. 00:07:04:12 - 00:07:33:06 Dr. Karl Right. And one of the things this does for Christians in America, I think, is to make it difficult to offer a prophetic word and prophetic critique of America. Because if America is God's, is God's nation. If everything it does is sanctioned by God, approved by God, then how do you call out its flaws? Even though in our own founding documents we talk about wanting to create a more perfect union? 00:07:33:09 - 00:07:35:14 Dr. Karl Recognizing we have work to do. 00:07:35:15 - 00:07:36:11 Rev. Brittany Right? 00:07:36:13 - 00:08:05:13 Dr. Karl And certainly, it would be impossible, I think, to look at American history and think of like that the everything we wanted the nation to be. It was in 1789 when the Constitution was ratified. So, there is incredible amount of work to do to, to have the nation as we want it to be. And so, if we keep it out of the category of the sacred, we can then perhaps offer a prophetic word. 00:08:05:17 - 00:08:12:22 Dr. Karl Yeah. When Americans, American Christians, or the nation itself needs to hear that prophetic word. 00:08:13:00 - 00:08:33:12 Rev. Brittany I love that. Or really, really appreciate that. Because, yes, we should be critical of many things. And our country, we can love our country. And I think to love our country is to look around or to love any institution. But we're talking about America right now to critique it and to see the ways in which we can be better. 00:08:33:15 - 00:08:44:16 Rev. Brittany Yeah. Before I move on, I would also like to add or ask, do you find the link to American exceptionalism to be linked to capitalism in any way? 00:08:44:18 - 00:09:10:17 Dr. Karl Yeah, this has been a debate among historians of American history, especially. It's where you think, it's how you think about the founding. Some historians, especially early on, thought that the exceptional aspect of the American experience was self-rule, was governance. And that capitalism came in as a kind of a corrupting influence that was a threat to that. 00:09:10:19 - 00:09:40:22 Dr. Karl Self-determination and democracy. Because democracy is built on like “all people are created equal.” And capitalism is like “distinguish yourself from your peers.” Later, historians said “No, no, no. The original promise of America, what made it exceptional, was the merger of capitalism and democracy. And then the threat came in terms of socialism. Communism.” That would undercut that, the inheritance of this link. 00:09:40:23 - 00:10:11:16 Dr. Karl Yeah. So, it really depends on how you perceive the original promise of America. The original kind of exceptional nature of America, whether or not you see capitalism as part of that original promise, or whether you see capitalism as a threat to that original promise. Okay. I think these days, most Americans would think of American capitalism, American free enterprise, however they want to phrase it, and kind of self-determination, democracy as two sides of one coin. 00:10:11:16 - 00:10:22:06 Dr. Karl Yeah. Okay. And this is what makes us exceptional. The ability to kind of hold these two things together. But it hasn't always been that way. Yeah. For American historians. 00:10:22:12 - 00:10:35:10 Rev. Brittany I love that there is a distinction before it comes together, because I think, for me at least, it's hard to break those things apart. But to know that they did not start off together and there were two different schools of thought is pretty profound. 00:10:35:13 - 00:11:06:17 Dr. Karl It is really. That's a really important insight. Because when the nation starts to industrialize, capitalism really starts to change, and people's experience of work starts to change. And it seems like this is not a positive thing for American democracy. You had power concentrated in the hands of a few capitalists and workers suffering. You had power coalescing in plantation owners and that oligarchy, and enslaved people suffering. 00:11:06:19 - 00:11:15:14 Dr. Karl So, yeah, it was not always seen as, like, capitalism is like part of the promise. Sometimes it was seen as really part of the problem. 00:11:15:16 - 00:11:22:05 Rev. Brittany Wow. I love this story. Makes my heart so happy. I'm such a nerd when it comes to this kind of stuff. 00:11:22:06 - 00:11:24:08 Dr. Karl So, you have no idea. 00:11:24:10 - 00:11:34:03 Rev. Brittany I think I get it. So, based on that, can you tell me, like, what are some of the pros and cons to American exceptionalism? 00:11:34:05 - 00:12:03:06 Dr. Karl It's certainly led, Americans to engage in the world in really positive ways at times. Yeah. I mean, it's when President Wilson called on the nation to engage in European affairs, in the war, to make the world safe for democracy. He's calling on that exceptional attitude. And there were some Americans, isolationists who felt like, “no, we should have nothing to do with the European world.” 00:12:03:08 - 00:12:25:20 Dr. Karl “We're doing fine on our own.” There are others who felt like, “No, it's in our very nature to engage and try to export what we have to offer others.” And again, it's always a complicated thing because are you exporting the self-determination or exporting capitalism? Are you going to really allow other people to be self-determining? 00:12:26:00 - 00:13:00:08 Dr. Karl Right. If they want a form of government that doesn't look like ours? But at least as an impulse, that sense of like we're an exceptional people, and we have something to offer to other nations has been a real hallmark of the American experience. Certainly, if you think about World War Two, the same thing that we need to engage the world in a way that, will keep the American dream, the American promise, available in other contexts, in other places. 00:13:00:10 - 00:13:29:05 Dr. Karl And the America's role in the world since World War Two has been to offer that kind of Pax Americana, the peace of America, as a kind of a guarantee. Even that notion is under a tremendous amount of tension these days. But it's been part of our, I mean, certainly part of our legacy. And I think that the United States has been perceived as an exceptional place by people elsewhere 00:13:29:07 - 00:13:43:21 Dr. Karl on the planet who have sought to get here because they were convinced that it is an exceptional place and that they will have a better chance of living the lives they want to live here than where they're from, where they're coming from. 00:13:43:22 - 00:13:55:07 Rev. Brittany So, kind of like the idea that even people who come here and believe that we are, you know, exceptional, are still kind of believing that we're above that time and space. 00:13:55:09 - 00:14:15:03 Dr. Karl Yeah, that'd be interesting. Whether they feel that sense of it or whether their recognition is kind of more, perhaps more realistic as like it's, “I know America is not going to be perfect, right? But it's going to be better than where we are now.” Yeah. And people who have made incredibly arduous journeys. Yeah. 00:14:15:07 - 00:14:35:06 Dr. Karl To try to establish a life here. They do that for a reason. Yeah. And that reason is part of, I think, what you could think about is making American exceptional and exceptional a place, that again, that doesn't make it the kingdom of God. Right. That doesn't make it a part of God's sacred plans in history. 00:14:35:06 - 00:15:05:16 Dr. Karl But it's difficult. To not kind of cross over that line. You see it a lot, Brittany, in prophecy. In books about prophecy. Belief where people think … some writers, when they believe that not only does God kind of judge nations for their faithfulness to God, he also raises up nations to do his will in the world. 00:15:05:18 - 00:15:30:18 Dr. Karl Not surprisingly, Americans who have written those prophecy books see America is kind of central to that role. In some, to the extent that they can't imagine kind of God's purposes in terms of bringing God's kingdom into the world without the American nation kind of in the center of that. And that, to me, seems like it crosses a line into 00:15:30:18 - 00:15:40:23 Dr. Karl what the secular nation is and what the kingdom of God is. What the church is to be in bringing about the purpose of God. 00:15:41:00 - 00:15:50:05 Rev. Brittany I could talk about this all day. So, I have another question. Okay. So, where does American exceptionalism show up in white congregations across denominations? 00:15:50:06 - 00:15:56:12 Dr. Karl Yeah. Wow. 00:15:56:13 - 00:16:28:11 Dr. Karl I think it shows up in great intensity in times of war, for example. Where the sense of we are sending our troops. And it's hard to know who the “our” is in that phrase. The nation's troops. God's troops. The church’s. Especially when individual congregations are very aware that they're sending some of their congregants to fight in war. 00:16:28:13 - 00:16:54:19 Dr. Karl And they certainly would feel as though they're sending those folks to be faithful Christians. In fulfilling that duty. Right. But it's, again, there's a place where the line seems to, would seem to, blur. Between to what extent they're representing the nation. To what extent the representing the church. So, I think in those times, yeah. 00:16:54:21 - 00:17:29:08 Dr. Karl I think that for a lot of churches, the liturgical calendar would be as much about Mother's Day and Father's Day and the 4th of July and Thanksgiving and Veteran's Day or Memorial Day, as it would be about other aspects of the church calendar that more liturgical churches would embrace. And so, I think that to that extent, it's like, okay, well, what is structuring our time, what's structuring our understanding of the rhythms of our discipleship? 00:17:29:10 - 00:18:00:19 Dr. Karl Is it a secular holiday? Is it a national holiday, when the church is called to be an international body? This is certainly a place of tension for denominations that have a large international presence. Right. Like what do you do with Sunday school material that focuses on the 4th of July when you know that people are going to be using this material outside the United States? 00:18:00:21 - 00:18:10:10 Dr. Karl So, does that help? Yeah. That sense of it's a difficult, it's a blurred kind of experience. Yeah. 00:18:10:12 - 00:18:24:20 Rev. Brittany So, then when we, like, I think about hymns, for example, that to me don't edify Jesus necessarily. But they are patriotic hymns that show up in our hymnal. And so, I'm just curious about that link as well. 00:18:24:21 - 00:18:39:18 Dr. Karl Yeah. If you're … it's … I think in large cities you probably have a patriotic event, a civic patriotic event where some of those songs would be sung. 00:18:39:19 - 00:18:40:18 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:18:40:19 - 00:19:14:13 Dr. Karl A lot of small towns, small churches would probably see their role not only as a worshiping congregation, but also a civic congregation in their community. Yeah. And so, it would be fairly natural for these churches, which pretty much all have the Christian flag and the American flag at the front of their sanctuary, right, to also then think about, well, we’ll take a few moments here and this is going to feel more like a patriotic rally 00:19:14:15 - 00:19:48:23 Dr. Karl than it is a Christian worship service. And I don't know how local pastors negotiate that world. That's incredibly complex. Yeah. And they have parishioners who expect it because it's been done for quite a long time. And maybe they're maybe it's appropriate to expect that. But it would be good to at least have more conversation about when we are engaged in Christian worship and when we are engaged in a civic activity that we're hosting for the good of our community. 00:19:49:00 - 00:20:18:18 Dr. Karl Let's say. Yeah. Because again, if we don't have conversation about the tension, then there may come moments when we want to be able to say something to the civil conversation, to the public square as, specifically as Christians, and may have muted our voice because we haven't made it really clear when we're doing the one thing and when we're doing that other. 00:20:18:19 - 00:20:37:12 Dr. Karl Yeah. But, again, it's just so complicated. And I just, I have a heart for local pastors who I know, you know, whatever they're thinking about are wrestling with these issues on in a way that as a parishioner, I don't really have to wrestle with as much. 00:20:37:14 - 00:20:53:11 Rev. Brittany Well, I'm glad that we're wrestling together today. Thank you. Okay, I have a couple more questions, and then I promise I will release you from my curiosity. Do you feel like there's a link between American exceptionalism and what we call now Christian nationalism? 00:20:53:13 - 00:21:19:19 Dr. Karl Yeah. I'm afraid there is. I think that if you start thinking about Christian nationalism and you get to that point where there is not only a belief that the nation was founded by Christian men, and founded on Christian principles, although even that is complicated. What are the teachings of Christ that you see reflected in that? 00:21:19:21 - 00:21:44:22 Dr. Karl But when you get to the point of like — “and God and the nation is blessed and the nation has a role to play in God's saving work in history” — that's when you open, I think you open the door for Christian nationalism to say, “well, if that's the case, then we have to protect the leadership of the nation to make sure that it remains appropriately Christian.” 00:21:45:00 - 00:22:13:07 Dr. Karl And for a lot of folks, because the founders were Anglo-Americans, allowing American voices that are more diverse than that into the mix seems as though that may be something that is not just moving us away from the role that the nation is to play in God's saving work. Most of those founders were also Protestants. 00:22:13:09 - 00:22:40:05 Dr. Karl And so, when Catholic immigration started to happen in larger numbers, when Jewish immigration started happening in larger numbers, when Muslim integrated immigration started happening in larger numbers, when Asian immigration started happening in major numbers, there was this moment of tension in the American identities like, “can we be the nation that God has called us to be with this diversity?” 00:22:40:07 - 00:22:46:23 Dr. Karl “Can we be the nation that we are called to be if we are not appropriately Christian?” 00:22:47:00 - 00:22:48:08 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:22:48:10 - 00:23:07:21 Dr. Karl Among our leaders, among the leadership class. And so, the folks who feel that tension feel like, “no, we can't” are going to embrace perhaps a way of thinking about the nation that marginalizes, pushes to the margins, those voices that they don't see as appropriately American. 00:23:07:21 - 00:23:08:10 Rev. Brittany God. 00:23:08:12 - 00:23:27:08 Dr. Karl Or appropriately Christian. Or appropriately Protestant. It's in our history. We've had all of those things. Those questions with that Americans have often asked of immigrants. Can they be enfolded into the American experience? 00:23:27:08 - 00:23:28:07 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:23:28:09 - 00:23:55:11 Dr. Karl For those who have a tendency to think about the nation as having this kind of saving work to perform. The stakes are obviously are higher. Because if they cannot be enfolded into the American experience, then we weaken our ability to do what God's called us to do. So, yeah, I think that there is that question about how do you think about American identity? 00:23:55:12 - 00:24:15:08 Dr. Karl Yeah. If you think about it in a certain way then, if again, if you think about America has a role to play on God's behalf, then protecting that American identity to make sure that the nation can play that role. There's much higher stakes. 00:24:15:14 - 00:24:25:17 Rev. Brittany Yeah. It's like the patriotism and the Christianity are interwoven and almost like inextricably linked. And can't be broken. Yeah. Okay. So, then my last question. 00:24:25:17 - 00:24:26:09 Dr. Karl Last question! 00:24:26:09 - 00:24:33:22 Rev. Brittany And then I release you from my curiosity, is how do then we care for people who are involved in Christian nationalism? 00:24:34:00 - 00:24:59:12 Dr. Karl I think, you know, for me, I've tried to remember, and especially when I was in a college classroom trying to communicate this to students in a Christian college classroom, that my highest priority was my discipleship to Jesus. That this was the highest good. That if I'm doing my discipleship, well, yeah, all other goods nestled underneath that highest good 00:24:59:13 - 00:25:23:15 Dr. Karl of pursuing love of God with all my heart, soul, mind, strength, and love of neighbor. So, that means then that if my love of nation — and I have to confess that I love the American culture; I've spent my life studying it and talking about it with students and with anybody who would listen — 00:25:23:17 - 00:25:33:10 Dr. Karl but if my love of nation, infringes on my discipleship to Jesus, then something's wrong. 00:25:33:11 - 00:25:34:01 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:25:34:03 - 00:25:53:16 Dr. Karl Something's wrong. So, I think that one way to approach our brothers and sisters, our fellow citizens, is to call them to that love of neighbor as the highest goal. And Jesus called it the greatest commandment. And so, it has to be what we're about. 00:25:53:16 - 00:25:54:08 Rev. Brittany Right. 00:25:54:10 - 00:26:09:05 Dr. Karl And so, if my work on behalf of the nation, if my work as a citizen, compromises my love of neighbor, I hope my love of neighbor takes precedence. 00:26:09:07 - 00:26:10:02 Rev. Brittany Yeah. 00:26:10:04 - 00:26:39:12 Dr. Karl And so, I think calling parishioners to love of neighbor is crucial. Yeah. It is, I think showing parishioners a different way of being in the world. And I'm so grateful to you and my other pastors for the way you proclaim the gospel on a weekly basis, and the way that you urge the congregation to engage in love of neighbor. 00:26:39:14 - 00:27:02:16 Dr. Karl Because I think that what we want to do is to place desiring the kingdom above everything else. And if we do that, then the other thing should kind of fall into place. And if we see that I'm compromising my desire for the kingdom by these other desires. 00:27:02:18 - 00:27:05:09 Dr. Karl I've got to rethink my priorities. 00:27:05:11 - 00:27:21:09 Rev. Brittany You know my kind of theology. I'm very thankful for your time and for your willingness to share in my curiosity and to engage with me. Oh, it's been a blessing. Thank you so much to you. We hope to see you soon. 00:27:21:11 - 00:27:42:23 Rev. Trudy Thanks so much for listening and for being part of this study. And if you have any questions that linger in your mind around this topic, I know we've only just skimmed the surface, we would love to hear from you. So please send us an email. If you're a Patreon member, I encourage you to put your question in that chat box. 00:27:43:03 - 00:28:06:21 Rev. Trudy If you are not a member, I encourage you to go to our site and see what we have there. We have our regular podcast, Perspectives, is there. It is a way for us to have conversations with folks who might not be near us and cannot be in person. A private conversation. So, I invite you to consider joining Patreon as well. 00:28:06:23 - 00:28:18:09 Rev. Trudy We will continue this conversation and enjoy where it goes in trust and in faith. Yeah. 00:28:18:11 - 00:28:20:16 Dr. Karl Thanks. You're very welcome. Thank you. Yeah.