00:00:00:20 - 00:00:18:13 Speaker 1 Before we condemn the betrayer, we might need to admit how often faith turns transactional in our own hearts. This week we sit with Judas not as a villain out there, but as a mirror within. 00:00:18:15 - 00:00:28:00 Speaker 2 Welcome to Perspectives, a podcast where the clergy women at the First United Methodist Church of San Diego share their musings on Scripture, 00:00:28:01 - 00:00:29:03 Speaker 1 theology, 00:00:29:05 - 00:00:32:05 Speaker 2 and what it has to do with us. 00:00:32:07 - 00:01:07:06 Speaker 1 Welcome to Perspectives. I'm Reverend Hannah here with Reverend Brittany in the studio, and today we continue our Lenten series: The People of the Passion. And we are sitting with a figure we think we already have understood, Judas “The Schemer.” So this is how the story goes. Matthew 26:14-16, and skipping a couple of other stories to verses 47 through 50: 00:01:07:08 - 00:01:41:04 Speaker 1 “Then one of the 12 who was called Judas Iscariot went to the chief priests and said, ‘What will you give me if I turn Jesus over to you?’ They paid him 30 pieces of silver. From that time on, he was looking for an opportunity to turn him in.” Fast forwarding the story. “While Jesus was still speaking, Judas, one of the 12, came. With him was a large crowd carrying swords and clubs. 00:01:41:06 - 00:02:13:23 Speaker 1 They had been sent by the chief priests and the elders of the people. His betrayer had given them a sign. ‘Arrest the man I kiss.’ Just then, he came to Jesus and said, ‘Hello, Rabbi.’ Then kissed him. But Jesus said to him, ‘Friend, do what you came to do.’ Then they came and grabbed Jesus and arrested him.” 00:02:14:00 - 00:02:17:17 Speaker 1 Wow. 00:02:17:19 - 00:02:30:02 Speaker 1 “Arrest the man I kiss.” “Hello, Rabbi.” “Friend, do what you came to do.” I hear your voice in there. [laughter] 00:02:30:04 - 00:02:51:03 Speaker 3 I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that it's really interesting that in this particular translation, it calls Judas the betrayer. And the reason I think that betrayer is an interesting and kind of the right word to use is that I don't think that you can be betrayed by people that you don't have relationship with. 00:02:51:05 - 00:03:19:01 Speaker 3 And so, it wasn't just that, you know, this person was coming to attack Jesus, but that the intimate relationship that he had built with Jesus as a disciple was the ultimate betrayal in many ways. To not only accept the petition that the people, you know, the chief priests made because they didn't make a petition. Judas goes out and after that to say, “look, are you still looking for him?” 00:03:19:02 - 00:03:21:14 Speaker 3 “Well, I know how to get him.” Kind of thing, you know. 00:03:21:16 - 00:03:23:00 Speaker 1 “How much will you give me?” 00:03:23:00 - 00:03:23:21 Speaker 3 Right. 00:03:23:23 - 00:03:30:15 Speaker 1 So that that lengthy time of relationship building is now turned upside down? 00:03:30:15 - 00:03:31:16 Speaker 3 Correct. 00:03:31:18 - 00:03:36:14 Speaker 1 And what do you see as his motivation? 00:03:36:16 - 00:03:59:13 Speaker 3 I don't know. I've often wondered what the motivation is. I mean, to use this specific amount of money, like the 30 pieces of silver. It was ... it always was read as this very opportunistic way of Judas just being kind of money hungry or like wanting to to make sure that he had riches for himself. But as we all know, you can't take money with you. 00:03:59:13 - 00:04:10:20 Speaker 3 And we know how Judas’ life ends. And so, it feels like it's more than just the money. But I don't know exactly what it is. 00:04:10:22 - 00:04:45:02 Speaker 1 And I might be making it too simplistic by turning this between relationship and money. What do we choose? It's not just about Judas in the story. It's our constant debate that's coming happening. Right. Will I spend this much money and will I invest in my relationship with this person? And he was making the choice between his relationship with this man that he once loved and followed and trusted over 00:04:45:04 - 00:04:49:00 Speaker 1 this scrap of money. It wasn't much. 00:04:49:01 - 00:04:50:11 Speaker 3 Right. 00:04:50:13 - 00:05:16:05 Speaker 3 And I think that you ... I mean, I think a lot of time in situations people are worried. Let me not say that. Let me say this: I think like modern — I don't always look to see where my money goes. Right. We've heard things about Walmart and Amazon or whatever. And I still patronize those places. Right. 00:05:16:07 - 00:05:31:15 Speaker 3 And it's like your values versus where your money goes. And it's really easy for me to be like “Oh my God, Judas! Why would you do that to Jesus?” But like I do similar things when I betray my faith to the convenience of the dollar. You know. 00:05:31:17 - 00:05:34:20 Speaker 1 Yep. 00:05:34:22 - 00:05:42:16 Speaker 1 Yes. And that was the one of the biggest thing. Good thing that you mentioned the Amazon. 00:05:42:18 - 00:06:04:23 Speaker 1 You know how much I hate shopping and how much I hate being around it, being surrounded by many people. So Amazon was my go-to place to avoid both people and shopping places. And for my own value, I canceled my subscription. 00:06:05:04 - 00:06:05:22 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:06:06:00 - 00:06:14:04 Speaker 1 And since then it's been only almost a year. Do you know how often I wanted to resubscribe? 00:06:14:05 - 00:06:16:13 Speaker 3 Yeah I bet. I bet. 00:06:16:17 - 00:06:35:02 Speaker 1 So it's not just idealistic or ancient story to think about. It's our everyday choices for sure. Do we value our values or do we follow the convenience. And here he is. 00:06:35:04 - 00:06:54:13 Speaker 3 And I think that Judas — yes Judas betrayed Jesus — but I also think that he betrayed himself. Because at any point, he could have ... I think that he did believe the things that Jesus was saying. Right. Because at any point he, could have turned away. So I think that as he betrayed Jesus, he was also betraying himself. 00:06:54:13 - 00:07:13:05 Speaker 3 And I think that that's the same for us. You know, it's not just a betraying of you know, God, when we put our money in a particular way or decide to use it, are more focused on money than we are on the people. But we also betray ourselves and our own values that we know at our core. 00:07:13:07 - 00:07:18:16 Speaker 3 Who we really are and who we want to be. But it's easier to do another thing. 00:07:18:18 - 00:07:52:13 Speaker 1 So earlier, you mentioned about the betrayal between people who are close to each other. And that one is also shaped. And that happens, that takes place within a system. There is always the system that's around this kind of betrayal between personal level. So he wasn't alone, Judas wasn't alone. And the chief priests and elders of the community, that means the religious community and temple police, came with clubs and swords. 00:07:52:15 - 00:08:23:22 Speaker 1 So, there was that religious power and system. There was the political Roman Empire who was not happy with Jesus either. And then Judas comes and he was just ... and you know he could have been an innocent individual who happened to have a little practical mind among the disciples, who's tempted to negotiate with the system to make that betrayal happen. 00:08:23:23 - 00:08:43:04 Speaker 1 So it's him who kisses. It's him who signals. It's him who approaches the priests. But at the end of the day, there's gotta be some sort of system that supports those kinds of actions. 00:08:43:04 - 00:09:08:10 Speaker 3 Yeah, I think the systems allow for the betrayal, right? And systems use people for their benefit. You know, so, I mean, I've seen it too many times to count. And various, you know, celebrities will get used as pawns in, you know, political conversations. And it's like, do you realize what you're doing? Do you know what you're doing? 00:09:08:10 - 00:09:29:22 Speaker 3 You know who you're betraying when you say the things that you say or when you align yourself with who you align yourself with? So, yeah, I think that every system, no matter what the system is, will always try to use someone who is deeply integrated in the system to benefit their mission, their goal, their, you know, vision. 00:09:29:22 - 00:10:09:08 Speaker 1 Yes. And then also those shifts, those changes, actually change the way that we behave and feel around those people. You, having gone through the seminary education, you must have noticed the shifts in their language. Around the Lord and Rabbi. And also like Jesus calling him Judas. Let me read it again. It's fun. “Arrest the man I kiss.” 00:10:09:10 - 00:10:28:12 Speaker 1 It's insane that we have the words “arrest” and “kiss” in one sentence. And then: “Hello Rabbi.” Then he kissed him. “Friend, do what you came to do.” Do you notice anything here? 00:10:28:14 - 00:10:50:16 Speaker 3 Well yeah. The commentaries that I read said something about you know, they didn't call Jesus Rabbi. They called him Lord. The disciples did. Right. And I also thought it was interesting that Jesus ... Judas says “arrest the man I kiss” as though ... the chief priests and the scribes knew who Jesus was. They'd asked him 1002 questions. So they really didn't need the specific. 00:10:50:18 - 00:11:15:04 Speaker 3 I mean, the ... they knew who Jesus was. You know what I mean? And so, that was very interesting. And Jesus also, doesn't call ... Jesus usually called the disciples by name. Okay. Usually that's one of the things that we love about Jesus is that when he calls him to the shore, when he calls in to follow him, Jesus calls him by name, but he calls Judas “friend” as though he doesn't know him. 00:11:15:06 - 00:11:31:06 Speaker 3 You know, as though he knows. That there's like an emotional distance. I know sometimes and like the, you know, as a pastor, you see a lot of different people and it stresses me out sometimes when I can't remember someone's name, you know, and then I'm just like, “I know I've seen them before, but I can't remember their name.” 00:11:31:08 - 00:11:38:23 Speaker 3 So it's just a greeting as opposed to, “oh, hi, Sarah. Really nice to see you.” You know what I mean? It's usually, “oh, my goodness, it's so good to see you.” 00:11:39:00 - 00:11:39:12 Speaker 1 Yes. 00:11:39:14 - 00:11:50:18 Speaker 3 Sometimes I just don't have the name at the tip of my tongue. So for Jesus to say friend as opposed to Judas knowing that he knew who Judas was, is a bit of an emotional distance, I think. 00:11:50:19 - 00:12:02:15 Speaker 1 Yes. And I wondered if it was Jesus strategically distancing to protect himself from being hurt by this absurd use of kiss. 00:12:02:17 - 00:12:03:03 Speaker 3 Right. 00:12:03:04 - 00:12:44:04 Speaker 1 So I could have just fine remembering your name but decided to call you my friend instead of Brittany. Honestly, I once in a blue moon, I do sort of distancing that way. When I know someone is not being fully trustworthy with me and do all the different kind of crazy stuff behind my back and comes to hug me, and I give myself a big handshake keeping the distance. 00:12:44:06 - 00:12:48:07 Speaker 1 So that kind of distancing is happening virtually here. 00:12:48:09 - 00:12:48:18 Speaker 3 Yeah. 00:12:48:18 - 00:13:06:19 Speaker 1 In this stressful moment. And how easy is it for us to portray Judas as a schemer and betrayer without seeing the mutual distancing happening here? 00:13:06:23 - 00:13:35:19 Speaker 3 Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think that Judas is, like you said, a mirror for us all. But it's not “Judas should have done this” or “Judas shouldn't have done that.” But it's a really an opportunity for us to reflect on the things that we do and the ways in which we betray ourselves. We betray God for more self-serving reasons rather than for the gospel sake. 00:13:35:21 - 00:14:08:12 Speaker 1 And it's interesting how Matthew weaves those two stories together. Right before the story came, we hear the story of this unnamed woman pouring a jar of expensive perfume on Jesus’ head. And that's juxtaposed with this story, one who is pouring out and the other one is retracting, and both of whom were close. But we don't know the name of this person who was pouring out. 00:14:08:13 - 00:14:21:06 Speaker 1 But we know the name of this man, poor Judas. For that one choice in life, he's remembered forever. Anyway, so what do you think about that? 00:14:21:07 - 00:14:49:20 Speaker 3 Well, I think that, I mean, this woman did not know Jesus personally. Right. She did not. She was not a disciple of Jesus like Judas was. And I think that oftentimes, I mean, Jesus says it himself, “a prophet is not without honor.” Right. “Except for in his own hometown.” And so, I think that sometimes the people that are closest to you don't always see the good thing in you, in the ways that other people sometimes get a glimpse and they’re intrigued by it, you know. 00:14:49:22 - 00:15:07:23 Speaker 3 So I think, yeah, the juxtaposition is interesting. And it, I think, again, Judas couldn't betray Jesus if he was not close to him, otherwise he would have just been a part of the crowd. Right. But the real reason that it was a betrayal is because of the relationship. 00:15:08:00 - 00:15:51:00 Speaker 1 Yeah. And it just triggered me to think about. Is there something about being close to someone and feeling betrayed by it? By the relationship? Or ... I'm not making sense right now but ... Oh! The relationship between unmet expectations and change of actions. So, do you have any experiences of unmet expectations that actually turned your actions to the other direction? 00:15:51:02 - 00:16:09:10 Speaker 3 I think, I mean, I've had many unmet expectations and in many different ways. And of course, it breeds resentment and doesn't, you know, I don't show up as my optimal self in those situations, I'm sure. And yeah, I yeah. 00:16:09:12 - 00:16:26:06 Speaker 1 The relationship between unmet expectations and resentments, betrayals. But then wouldn't that be not just the issue of Judas, but part of our human nature? 00:16:26:08 - 00:16:46:10 Speaker 3 For sure. For sure. I mean, I think each of the disciples represent a part of us. I think Jesus represents a part of us. I think that the Gospels and the scriptures in their totality are supposed to be a mirror for us. And always that it's not just those people out there, but it's us in here, and it's how we interact with each other. 00:16:46:10 - 00:16:58:10 Speaker 3 It's how we interact with ourselves and how we, you know, are quick to judge and slow to listen. And you know, extend grace. Of course. 00:16:58:12 - 00:17:22:07 Speaker 1 Yep. Tendency to calculate, justify our small compromises. And trying to make our stories less flawed. But highlights others’ flaws. 00:17:22:09 - 00:17:23:01 Speaker 1 Yeah. 00:17:23:03 - 00:17:47:14 Speaker 3 So. Yeah. So, like Judas, like you said, you just didn't do any of these things on his own. He was a part of the system, you know, that created it. And so, when we look. I just feel like in general, the crowd just never gets the full ... every, you know, Easter, Lenten season, particularly Easter, Maundy Thursday, Good Friday. 00:17:47:16 - 00:18:10:20 Speaker 3 We talk about Judas. We dog Judas out bad. We talk about how Peter denied him real bad. But we never take a moment to, like, really think about the crowd, and the systems, and the Pharisees, and the scribes, and the religious leaders, who in the Roman Empire ... you know, like we don't ever really I think look at it in its totality, but it's really easy to call out Judas 00:18:10:22 - 00:18:17:10 Speaker 3 without looking at the entire system from which Judas was created. 00:18:17:12 - 00:18:53:10 Speaker 1 So it would be interesting if we, in this Lenten season, instead of reading someone else's story, but reading the stories from their own perspectives and sitting there, putting their shoes on, and sitting in their chairs, and looking to ourselves, which is the whole point about Lenten journey. Yeah. And ask multiple questions about ourselves, facing ourselves. And journey with Christ in this Lenten season. 00:18:53:15 - 00:18:54:23 Speaker 1 Yeah. Wouldn't that be nice? 00:18:55:02 - 00:19:16:18 Speaker 3 Wouldn't that be nice? I mean, at the end of the day, Judas was ... he betrayed Jesus. Yes. Like I said, I think he betrayed himself as well. He also betrayed his friends who he had walked and journeyed with for so long. And even still, Jesus knew that Judas would do those things and he was still invited to the table. 00:19:16:23 - 00:19:49:14 Speaker 3 You know, like what? I mean, that, to me, is the good news for everything about it, because without ... without the extension of grace that Jesus gives us, there's no point. You know, yes, Judas made a huge mistake. Or Judas, you know, turned down the wrong path. But Christ still invited him to the table of grace and mercy and fullness and love, and that was extended to him. 00:19:49:14 - 00:20:08:08 Speaker 3 And so, for me, it gives me hope that I don't have to hide away in shame when I have betrayed. That I am still welcome at Christ's table. And what I can do now, as opposed to try to defend those decisions, is to repent from it and turn around and do something different. 00:20:08:10 - 00:20:34:02 Speaker 1 Yes, yes. And I wondered if that was the whole rationale of Matthew in putting the story of this woman pouring out this expensive oil and the story of Judas, and in between the story of Judas, there is this last Supper where Jesus extends the grace to everyone, including the one who is going to betray him and deny him. 00:20:34:04 - 00:20:43:13 Speaker 1 And back to the story of betrayal. So it's a good story to sit with for a bit. 00:20:43:13 - 00:21:16:08 Speaker 3 It is a good story to sit with. We don't really get to talk about Judas other than Maundy Thursday. And I think that Judas opens us up, like I just said, to who we are and the ways in which we're not perfect. But the table of grace is always open to us regardless. And that's the depth of God's love for us, that even in those moments when we betray God, or when we deny God, when we ignore God, when we're angry with God, when we're resentful with God – that we are still invited to the table. 00:21:16:10 - 00:21:19:13 Speaker 1 I hope we find those grace along the way. 00:21:19:15 - 00:21:20:19 Speaker 3 I hope so, too. 00:21:20:21 - 00:21:33:04 Speaker 1 Well, it was an interesting conversation to think about Judas. I wasn't super hyped because I see myself in Judas. I saw myself in Judas a lot. 00:21:33:07 - 00:21:37:00 Speaker 3 So yes, Judas has a lot to teach us all, I think. 00:21:37:01 - 00:21:40:09 Speaker 1 Thanks for being the intriguing conversation, partner. 00:21:40:10 - 00:22:02:09 Speaker 3 You're welcome. Thank you, Reverend Hannah! We have a couple questions, or a few, rather, that we'd like you to ponder. You can talk about those questions reflectively with yourself, or you can have conversations with those around you. The first question is: Where have I reduced devotion to transaction? The second is: Where do I quietly distance myself from friends in order to protect my resources? 00:22:02:11 - 00:22:22:20 Speaker 3 And third: What expectations do you need, do we need, to shift or let go of to follow Jesus? We hope that you'll spend some time reflecting on those questions. And if you would like to let us know some of your thoughts, feel free to send us an email. Until next time, bye! 00:22:22:22 - 00:22:45:02 Speaker 2 This is a production of First United Methodist Church of San Diego. To learn more about our events and ministries and to access additional learning resources, visit fumcsd.org. 00:22:45:04 - 00:22:45:12 Speaker 2