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About Latest Posts Follow MeReinaldo LopezReinaldo Lopez is a blogger, serial entrepreneur and marketing consultant who specializes in online marketing strategies and helping affiliate marketers by leveraging proven sales techniques and funnels.
RebuttalGovernment Distoritions in US Health Care SystemMy opponent claims that government interventions have greatly expanded Health Coverage in the US.
RebuttalUniversal Health Care and SpendingMy opponent claims that the point about United States government interventions increasing the cost of Health Care is irrelevant and that I failed to refute his argument about preventative medicine:"This part of the debate came about after I demonstrated that the US spends far more on health care than any nation with universal health care. For Arguments - Con made several assumptions without sourcing or justifying (Pro did too for that matter, but to less of an extent).
Source - Pro, one of con's sources went to a website no longer around (or at least a page no longer around), and others went to blogs that themselves linked to pages no longer around.
This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters.
This is why there are millions of people on the internet seeking for a way to earn an income online. Elite Marketing Pro  have created an amazing system that you just plug in and start sending people to your product pages already set up and done for you and others join your team to duplicate the process. Further examination of the meaning does not need to be brought up in this debate.INTRODUCTIONI'm am happy to be starting this debate which I have been planning to do with jimtimmy.
My opponent, however, is making the mistake of looking at intentions and not the actual effects of the programs. Government DistortionsSo I found myself about to go on about why programs like medicare have vastly expanded the access to healthcare. Con responded by saying that the spending is high because prices have been artificially expanded by the government.Lets assume for a moment that he's right. Since the europe ages were lowered when there is no logical way for the removal of pre-mature deaths to do that, the data could not be trusted.
I think the deciding factors for me on this debate were the fact that Universal Healthcare doesn't require eliminating Private Healthcare (allowing people to use it if it is so much better) and the fact that the Waiting Lines issue is skewed by people who don't even get in line for Private Health Care due to costs. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges.
The main reason, my opponent argues, is that Universal Health Care Systems put more focus on Preventative Medicine.
First, my opponent claims that Governmet Programs, like Medicare, Medicaid, SCHIP, and TRI-CARE, have been key in expanding coverage to disadvantaged groups. Before I get into that, though, I feel it is necessary to explain why Health Care costs so much in the United States. This certainly was the INTENT of these groups, but the effects have been quite different.The people who are on these programs actually receive very poor Health care Coverage. Does that refute what I demonstrated in the first place, that universal health care will reduce spending? The United States Health Care system is deeply distorted by government programs, regulations, and odd tax laws. May no one vote without reading and may they be honest in doing so.I will lay out a few short points that I may add to or expand on later. The correct measure is Health Care Spending as a Percentage of GDP, not Health Care Spending per Capita. Internists are 8.5 times more likely to reject Medicaid patients than Private Insurance Patients [1]. Con may simply rebut or may include his own points but there will be no new points by him in the last round.ARGUMENTS1. So called "government distortions" are what have made health care more accessible to many Americans. Neither did Con refute the effect of preventative medicine in nations with universal health care."However, my opponent is incorrect in both of his assertions here. I do hold against Pro that he should have attacked this more, as there are plenty of studies that show that preventative care is more cost effective than major medical.
Lastly, a Surgical Outcomes Study from UVA found that people on Medicaid were 13% MORE likely to die in surgery than people WITHOUT Health Insurance at all, and people on Medicaid were 97% more likely to die than people with Private Insurance [3]. First, it is totally relevant that government distortions have caused US Health Care prices to be so high. These government interventions have brought health care to poor, elderly, veterans and children who otherwise would not have been able to afford it.
These studies show that, despite spending hundreds of Billions of dollars on Public Health Programs, it is not even clear that these patients get better coverage than those without any Health Insurance.Furthermore, my opponent did not even answer my main point that high Health Care costs were the result of various Government Interventions, which they are. These government factors, not private Health Care, are too blame for the high cost of Health Care in the United States.The main thing driving the high prices of Health Care in the US is government distortions [2]. This is a key point, as it shows that the private market is not responsible for high Health Care costs.Rationing and Waiting TimesGovernments ration Health Care by limiting individual's use of it.
His entire basis for arguing this is that the United States, without Universal Health Care, has higher prices than countries with Universal Health Care.Therefore, if I can show that Government Distortions, not a lack of Universal Health Care, have caused the US to have such high Health Care prices, I have successfully disproven a major part of my opponent's argument.
Basically, the US tax code allows a full exemption for employer provided Health Care, but not individually bought Health Care. Con has not provided any example of health care being rationed by governments with universal healthcare. In my Round 1 and Round 2 posts, I offer substantial evidence showing that Government Distortions have indeed lead to high Health Care prices in the US.This reality effectively rebuts my opponent's entire argument about prices. In countries without universal health care, namely the United States, the majority of individuals with ailments, whether they know of them or not, have a strong incentive to stay away from check-ups because it will cost them money that they are already struggling to hold onto.
And even if these supposed rations exist, he is forgetting about the rations that are inherent in private health care providers as well. As I showed in my last post, Universal Health Care Systems have high waiting times and low supply of medical technologies. As I mentioned earlier, my opponent's entire argument about prices was based on the fact that the US has high Health Care prices. What this means is that employees are NOT paying directly for their own Health Insurance, and, more importantly, this has caused Health Insurance to function as much more than insurance.In a private market, free of this tax distortion, individuals would mostly buy Health Insurance Plans that offer only catastrophic type coverage.


So, my opponent is basically arguing that high Health Care prices in the US are caused by a lack of Universal Health Care. Universal health care will save lives.The American Journal of Public Health confirms that around 45,000 people die each year in the United States due to lack of health insurance [2].
This would mean that they would pay individually for Health Care, unless an extreme expense came by. Some complain that the government will supposedly start coming between them and their doctor, while they are completely oblivious to the insurance companies coming between them and their doctor right now.III. Americans have shorter waiting times because they are much less likely to use the health care system due to high costs.
However, I have shown that these prices are caused by government distortions and not a lack of Universal Health Care. Even though, as I would see the evidence suggests, universal health is good for the economy, it doesn't even matter.
With this system, patients would not overuse things like Dentists, Pediatricians, and other non-emergency type doctors.However, with the domination of Employer-Provided Insurance, patients are removed from their costs. A Health Affairs survey reports that 27% of Canadians and 5% of Americans reported waiting four months or more for elective surgery. For if it was bad for the economy, it is still putting a price on human life to say that we would be better without it.
But the same study says 24% of Americans reported that they did not get medical care because of cost. As prices just reflect the supply and demand of a good or service, shortages arise when there is high demand and low supply for a good or service, but the price is held down.My opponent does not answer this economic issue. Instead, he claims that American shave it worse than those in Universal Health Care systems because, even though Americans have lower waiting times, they have high costs.
My opponent never gave any evidence that Universal Health Care systems have more preventative medicine or that preventative medicine reduces prices. The only reason Americans aren't waiting in line is because they can't afford to get in the line.
However, as I explained earlier, these prices are the result of Government distortions and artificial restrictions on Medical Supply.
However, I made other points regarding why countries with universal health care save lives.
I cannot rebut either of these claims because they were never supported in the first place. Universal Health care will help the economyAccording to the US Department of Labor, the average American spends about 3,175 dollars a year on health insurance [3].
And, the problem with this is that patients overuse Medical Services because individuals have no incentive to control their own costs. Universal Health Care and Medical InnovationIn my last post, I offered evidence that Universal Health Care reduced medical innovation and, therefore, did not save lives. Countries with universal health care have lower infant mortality and were ranked as being healthier than the United States.
My opponent did offer a theoretical reason why Universal Health Care might increase prevention.
This is known as the tragedy of the commons, where individuals overuse resources because they are removed from the cost. My opponent claims that Universal Health Care does save lives because countries with Universal Health Care have higher life expectencies than the United States, which does not have Universal Health Care.However, this does not show what my opponent thinks it shows. This is not to mention the fact that, as I showed before, universal health care brings care to tens of thousands of people who otherwise wouldn't have it. Basically, he said that Universal Health Care systems encourage use of preventative check-ups because Health Care is free at the point of delivery.
Based on the simple mathematics of shared cost, health care would cost the average person less in tax than it would in price. Now, in the US, the system is dominated by government programs and private insurance companies. The United States is the ONLY first world country without Universal Health Care, and the United States also happens to have many more fatal injuries than other countries, which have nothing to do with Health Care. However, my opponent ignores that Universal Health Care systems do have to deal with much longer waiting times than non Universal Health Care systems. Furthermore, once fatal injuries are taken into account, the US actually has HIGHER life expectancy than other developed countries [4].Universal Health Care and the EconomyMy opponent does not really answer my response from last round.
This means that accessing preventative check ups would be challenging in Universal Health Care systems, just like it would be in non Universal Health Care systems.
Because, even though the US system is deeply distorted, the price system is still basically allowed to operate.In Universal Health Care Systems, the same tragedy of the commons problem occurs, except it is the government instead of private insurers that is insuring people.
My opponent claimed that Universal Health Care would improve the economy by "putting money in people's pockets". The only difference is that price is the problem in non Universal Health Care systems and waiting times are the problem in Universal Health Care systems. The difference, however, is that in most Universal Health Care systems, the response to overuse of medical services is shortages and rationing, instead of higher costs.Shortages seen in the long waiting times in most Universal Health Care Systems.
I pointed out that Universal Health Care is funded by taxation, which offsets this effect.Plus, taxation has additional disincentive effects ("supply-side effects"), like reducing investment and hours worked, that hurt economic growth.
The vast majority of countries below the Unites States on the list do not have universal health care. I have shown that excessive waiting times do exist in Universal Health Care systems in previous rounds. Canada, for example, has extremely long waiting times for most serious types of medical services [3].
And, as I showed in my last post, there is a well known growth reducing effect of larger government and higher taxation.Universal Health Care and Medical InnovationMy opponent says that Universal Health Care will not reduce Medical Innovation because Private Insurance will still exist. Another problem with my opponent's argument is that he ignores the fact that high Health Care prices in the US are the result of government distortions not a lack of Universal Health Care.
This is not true, as the Public Sector WILL crowd out the Private Sector because the Public Sector is subsidized by the government and not forced to make a profit. This is relevant, as it shows that high prices are not a necessary barrier to preventative medicine in the absence of Universal Health Care.
This is actually how it works in the US, demand is just artificially high because of government distortions. This means that people are already paying for Public Insurance through their taxes, so buying Private Insurance would be the equivalent of paying for insurance twice. In other words, a country can have both low waiting times and low prices without Universal Health Care. Most of the time, higher demand, without a corresponding increase in supply, means higher prices.
And, as I demonstrated, universal health care is more efficient with it's spending than private health care. A privelege that only the wealthy could attain, because it is too expensive for regular people to pay for Insurance through their taxes and then again for Private Insurance.Universal Health Care in AmericaUniversal Health Care would hurt America. And if the public sector doesn't take care of it properly, the private sector is still allowed to do it.


However, in most Universal Health Care Systems, prices are kept articially low by price controls. It would fail to control costs, it would reduce medical innovation, and it would lead to long waiting lines for Americans. When I mentioned this before, Con replied that they would not be able to because they would be pushed out of the market. I have shown above and in previous rounds that US prices are the result of government distortions and that this is relevant to this debate.Universal Health Care and Health In my last round, I showed that US life expectancy is only lower than other countries because fatal accidents are more common in America, and that this has nothing to do with Health Care. Furthermore, a Universal Health Care system would violently force people to participate in a system that they may not even support.
My opponent acknowledges this and responds by pointing out that the infant mortality rate is higher in America than it is in other countries.However, this is a deeply flawed argument. Even if they get Private Insurance, they are forced to pay for the Universal Health Care System through taxation. Just like Life Expectancy, infant mortality is almost entirely determined by factors that don't relate to Health Care, and, to make matters worse, infant mortality is measured differently accross countries [1].
Of course, whatever board makes the decisions on rationing does not have the information necessary to plan an entire medical system used by millions of people.
The solution to the United States's Health Care crisis is to allow individuals to make their own Health Care decisions, free of Government distortions. If it is true this means that universal health care's success can be measured by the fact that those who use it, by a large enough margin to make private insurers disappear, are content with the quality of their healthcare and medical innovation is not a problem. This means that infant mortality rates say very little to nothing about the quality of Health Care systems.My opponent's next point is that a WHO study found the US to have only the 37th best Health Care system in the world. If it is false, it means my point about medical innovation being backed up by the private sector is still well founded.4. I am familiar with this study, as it has been cited favorably by nearly every advocate of Universal Health Care I have encountered. The International Monetary Fund urges that the most important thing nations can do in an economic downturn is to strengthen their social safety nets. The problem is that this study is deeply flawed.One problem with this study is that it is very old. Universal Health Care will actually hurt the economy.The main reason is that Universal Health Care requires higher taxes to pay for it.
They say this while well aware that it means raising taxes because they know that it's worth it.
Higher taxes actually hurt economic growth by reducing the incentive to work, save, invest, and report income.
There is a well known growth dampening effect of high taxation, that has been confirmed by numerous academic studies [4].Second, implementing a Universal Health Care system in tough economic times is the worst thing the government could do. With universal health care, everyone knows that, no matter their financial situation, they can count on having care if they become ill.
The stronger any nation's social safety net is, the less hard any recession is going to hit.4. Although the US system is far from a free market, it is not Universal and a large private sector does exist. A universal health care system would most likely be funded through the income tax, which is progressive. Not surprisingly, the US has many more MRI's and CT Scans per capita than countries with Universal Health Care like Canada and the United Kingdom [5].Furthermore, a lions share of the world's medical innovations are coming from the US. If what you say is true, that public sector health care would not provide the necessary treatments to some people, they are still fully capable of buying those treatments from a private provider.ARGUMENTS1.
The rich would pay more because they're more able to pay and the price of health care means a lot less to them than it does a homeless man.
If it is true this means that universal health care's success can be measured by the fact that those who use it, by a large enough margin to make private insurers disappear"To respond to this point, let me offer a quick hypothetical story. 7 of the top 12 Pharmaceutical Companies, as ranked by Forbes Magazine, are located in the United States and 74 of the top 100 Biotech Companies are located in the United States [6] and [7].
Americans Will Be Happier With a Universal Health Care SystemThere are several reasons that a universal health care system would increase the average American's satisfaction with it.
Thirdly, even if we are all paying in the same, there is still another inherent success in social safety nets. Let's say that government forces everyone, by gun, to pay a banana tax so everyone could get free bananas at the grocery store. The fact is that Universal Health Care systems simply are not producing nearly as much innovation as the non-Universal US system. It means that no one will need to worry about whether they will be able to afford health care, they know it is taken care of. Any time a human need is made an economic right, it diverts spending from things which are non-necessity, making the market better economized.
Now, when everyone goes to the grocery store, there are other private bananas available for people to pay for there, but everyone chooses to take the bananas they were forced to pay for in advance.Because of this, the private banana companies all went out of business, and everyone started taking the "free" government bananas (they were paid by through forced taxation). If the US had a true free market in Health Care, there is no telling how far Medical Innovation would be.ConclusionLet me conclude by saying that I look forward to my opponent's response. CONCLUSIONEvery other industrialized nation besides the United States has adopted universal health care and there's a reason why.
Does this prove how good the government bananas are?Or, does it simply show that people will take what they are forced to pay for?I think the answer is fairly simple, and this is why my opponent's argument is wrongheaded. I will also say that I have tried my best to source my arguments adequatley, but I do hope my opponent does not use incorrect or inadequate sourcing as a "cop-out" on some of my arguments.
Doctors will be free to take care of their patients as they want, their available treatments will not be limited by an insurance company and they will not have to deal with the moral disgrace of turning anyone down because they couldn't afford it. The fact that people will enroll free public insurance that they are forced to pay for through mandatory taxation does not prove that this Public Health Insurance is superior to Private Health Insurance in any way.On another note, I have in previous rounds that Universal Health Care systems do impede medical innovation and that Universal Health Care systems are not very efficient. Lastly, Americans will be more satisfied because the majority of Americans endorse a universal health care system.
The best economic and medical associations endorse universal health care and there's a reason.Because it works.
Universal Health Care and the EconomyMy opponent claims that Universal Health Care will help the economy.
Because it works a lot better than what we have now.NOT letting sick people die or live in suffering is a moral and practical thing for society, for the economy, for our daily lives.
Instead, he simply pointed out that it would be more equitable.In previous rounds, I explained how Universal Health Care does not reduce costs and, more importantly to this point, must be funded by new taxation. Universal Health Care, through the higher taxation necessary to fund it, will actually harm the economy.ConclusionI have successfully disproven the notion that a Universal Health Care system is beneficial to the population. I have shown that there is no reason to believe that Universal Health Care will reduce prices, and I have shown that Universal Health Care will lead to long waiting times.



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