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Discussion in 'Mk5 VW Jetta, Sportwagen, and Audi A3 TDI forum' started by Greg2010, May 24, 2010.
See attached pictures for more help, first pic shows car not starting and the onboard computer not showing the mpg indicator. When the car won't start as in pic one attached above, after about 5 mins of the ignition left on in this state the engine fans start up. Also notice in picture one that the (mpg display is zero) does anyone know why this would be the case, how does this component get it's reading and from where, maybe this could be part of the problem. All codes have been cleared about 50 times by different people but the same codes always return. Does the engine not even crank over when you turn the key or does it turn over but won't catch and run? If you listen to the EGR valve when you cycle the key it's probably the high pitched noise you hear. Also take off this relay panel cover and check all the relays (your relays may look a little different, if you could take a picture of them it would help.) The mechanics may have missed these. How many miles on the car and can you think of anything that happened just prior to the problem showing up -- like drove through a particularly deep puddle or gave someone a jump start -- anything?
This screams really bad intermittent ground to me, but not knowing where all the pieces are on an A3 (sold mine) I can't be more specific, other than to suggest checking for things like a broken motor mount that allowed the engine to twist during acceleration and tear an important ground strap (such as the one commonly used between the transmission and body).
Thanks for the update, i've already had the battery replaced as this was one of the first signs of the problems starting.
Any thoughts on why the fans would start when after about five mins of leaving the key in the ignition and only when the car won't start. At the service , the Audi dealer said there was a fan fault and that the fans would need replacing.
Any thoughts on the Diags results, is the ECU unit the panel under the dashboard next to the internal fues set under the steering wheel? The diagnostic port where they plug in the cable and the relay panel are under the dashboard. Although they should have fixed it with the new coolant tank, do you have coolant migration? Thanks again chaps, will check the cables over the weekend and have a good look around the car. Chitty - still on the subject of the ECU - do you have a picture of it, where the diags connector is under the steering wheel, if you remove the housing and expose the other fuse box there are relays and other connectors going to a circuit board. Silver - I'm not aware of any history of water damage i bought the car from Audi 2nd hand and have had it for 3 years now.
I hear the back windscreen motor has failed due to possible water leaking in from the blade and sprinkle jets on the back windscreen. I'm not sure if the A3 is the same but for your year it should be - the Jetta has a central electronics module with relays. When the IMF was faulty it was blowing a fuse that is also connected to the fans, this is now fine.
Chitty - Engine compression is fine as far as i'm awaree, the car drives fine has a little cold start that i noticed recently. Also any ideas on the OBD (on board display) i.e the mpg, what's driving this reading? I am going to try and look for signs of water on the ECU - it's right under the bonnet by the passenger wiper, right? Everything else seems fine, the only small thing is the car says the left reverse light is broken, when it isn't. My gut feeling is that I still have a fault on the fan (as the original error code) but I'll give it a go and let you know. Did a 200 mile round trip this weekend with no problems other than the wait to start, the temperature never went over 90 but I also didn't notice the smaller fan turning (the larger one is for the aircon as I understand it). Anyway, I have my fingers crossed for you at Audi, my experience with our two local dealers has been bad with this car and our old TT (why do I buy Audi again! I think someone had mentioned about the water leaking into the ECU from under the windscreen wipers. Mec, my suggestion would be to check the seal at the bottom of the your windscreen outside.
Looking back on the history of my problem you are likely to have to replace the ECU as the problem may get worse. I still have a fan fault coming from the car, any suggestions on how to fix this as Audi want to replace the fans at a cost of A?380.
Incase anyone ends up here with the same symptoms, I wanted to share what (after quite some time!) solved our issue.
Definitely worth trying before all the other ‘fixes’ we were quoted for by various garages. It may not display this or other websites correctly.You should upgrade or use an alternative browser. Someone had suggested the fuel pump as we hear a whistling noice just after the engine light shows indicating that the car is ready to start. That type of strap can break but leave a few strands intermittently touching and cause lots of weird problems, just for example. Bit strange, as when the car does start the FANs don't start up if i leave the key in and don't start the engine?
Audi had checked all the wiring to the ECU and then confirmed that it was the ECU that is at fault.
Sitting in your car this would be just a few inches in from the bottom left hand side of the windowscreen and then towards the middle. The relay in questions is the only one in our car marked ‘458’ it's grey and on the left side of the fuse box in our car.
Have had the car looked at by 3 garages , 5 Diags and 3 Auto Elec, glow plugs replaced, egr unit replaced, key changed, battery replaced but car still has fault and no one can pin point the problem.
I should add that the ECON light did also come on for a short while about 3 months ago and then went off.
In the no starting state i just take the key out and then re-insert and try again until the (engine light) come on.
Full Audi Service history, it has had a new cylinder head about 2 years ago around 75000k mile because the engine was losing water and a bit of oil. This means that all dryers have to have a blower to move air and a heat source to warm the air, and that airflow is very important. If three different garages have tried to fix the car, hopefully they are all ultra-familar with tdi's or they could add to the problem.

The only consistent thing in all this is that i know when it won't start and when it will. If you can feed some paper under neath the seal then chances are water has2: been leaking in.
It also means that all dryers must have a way to toss the clothes around a bit, because air won't circulate through them if they're just laying there in a big wet lump. Ignitor systems and holding coils on the gas safety valves have varied slightly over the years, but you can find the diagnosis and repair procedures for all gas burners covered by this manual in section 2-3. A temperature control system keeps the air at the optimum temperature for drying and prevents scorching of your clothes.
Finding the thermostats is discussed in the chapter pertaining to your model. There is also a safety system that prevents the heating system from starting at all unless the blower is turning.
Over a period of years, enough can build up enough to allow some of the above symptoms to occur.
The airflow system is discussed in section 2-5, except for drum seals, which are discussed in the chapter pertaining to your brand of dryer. In most models, the blower is the last component in the airflow system. If you have a separate timer and temperature control, consider yourself lucky; the combined units are considerably more difficult to diagnose and generally more expensive to replace. So most repairs stem from just a few common complaints: 1) NOISY OPERATIONA vast majority of these complaints stem from drum supports that have worn out. It usually sounds like a loud, low-pitched rumbling sound that slowly gets worse over a period of several months or even years. This is a very common complaint in Whirlpool or Kenmore brand dryers about 7 to 15 years old. See the chapter about your brand for specifics about replacing the drum support rollers.   In some models, notably GE, if a belt breaks, the belt tensioner will touch the drive motor shaft and a loud grinding or clattering noise will result. This can happen in Whirlpool or Kenmore dryers, as well as some other brands, though it is infrequent.
To solve the problem, open the top of ther dryer as described in the Whirlpool section, then remove the plastic vane on the inside of the dryer drum by removing the screws on the outside of the dryer drum that hold it in place. In some models, notably Maytag and Frigidaire machines, things can get by the lint screen (like pencils and pens) and get stuck in the blower wheel. Again, it's a loud grinding sound, as if you were sticking something into a moving blower fan.
See the section about your brand for details about how to get to the blower in your machine.2) NOT DRYING WELL(See also NO HEAT below) Usually this is caused by poor airflow. Feel the dryer vent exhaust (usually outside the house.) If there isn't a strong blast of air coming out, check the lint screen and open up any dryer vent you can get to to check for clogging. Also check any flexible dryer vent for pinching. In some machines, if the drum is not turning, there will be no noise or other external symptoms. To diagnose, start the machine empty, open the door and look inside quickly, or depress the door switch to see if the drum is turning. To repair, see the chapter about your brand. You may see similar symptoms if the motor has gone bad, except that you probably will not hear the motor turning. See section 2-4(d) about motors. 3) NO HEAT, OR LOW HEAT This can be caused by poor airflow in all dryers, but especially in gas dryers. Check the dryer vent and exhaust as described in NOT DRYING WELL above. This can also be caused by a problem with the air heating system within the dryer.
Check the dryer vent and exhaust as described in NOT DRYING WELL above.   2-3 GAS BURNERSTo access the burner assembly, open the gas burner inspection door. If it is glowing, you will hear another click, the gas valve will open and the flame will kick on. Bring the burner assembly to your parts dealer to make sure you get the right coil assembly, and don't forget to bring the model number of the machine.   IGNITOR GLOWS, BUT FLAME DOES NOT START (GAS VALVE DOES NOT OPEN)(PILOTLESS SYSTEMS ONLY) Either the flame sensor is not working properly or the safety solenoid coils are not opening the gas valve. It is an especially common problem in installations where the dryer exhaust runs a long way before venting to the outside. Test as described in the section above, "IGNITOR DOESN'T GLOW". Occasionally this problem can be caused by a bad thermostat. It's unpleasant, but unless exposure is more than a second or so, the only harm it usually does is to tick you off pretty good.
It's not worth dying for. Sometimes you need to read a wiring diagram, to make sure you are not forgetting to check something.
It is ESPECIALLY important in diagnosing a bad timer. If you already know how to read a wiring diagram, you can skip this section.
If you're one of those folks who's a bit timid around electricity, all I can say is read on, and don't be too nervous. You learned how to use a VOM in Chapter 1, right? Each component should be labelled clearly on your diagram.
To test a switch with a certain marking, mark and disconnect all the wires from your timer. For example, in figure G-6, if you want to test the hi-temp selector switch, connect one lead to the M and one to the H terminal.
If it does, you know that contact inside the switch is good. Remember that for something to be energized, it must make a complete electrical circuit. You must be able to trace the path that the electricity will take, FROM the wall outlet back TO the wall outlet. Sometimes they will be labelled L1 and N, but they are still 110 volt leads. Let's say you need to check out why the heater is not working. Since a burnt out heater element is the most likely cause of this symptom, first test the heater for continuity. This switch is located inside of the timer (you know this because it is drawn with thick lines) and it must be closed. In this example, we have set the temperature on "low." Note that in this machine, on this setting, the electricity flows through both the high-temp and low-temp operating thermostats.
The electricity then flows through the high limit thermostat, so it too must be closed and show good continuity. The electricity flows through the heater, which we have already tested and we know is good. Then the electricity flows through the centrifugal switch, which must be closed, before going back out the main power cord (L2).   To test for the break in the circuit, simply isolate each part of the system (remove the wires from the terminals) and test for continuity. For example, to test the thermostats in our example, pull the wires off each thermostat and test continuity across the thermostat terminals as described in section 2-4(c). The Y-DB switch is shown in bold lines, so it is inside the timer. However, if you can identify the proper leads, you can use your alligator jumpers to jump across them. You may need to use jumpers to extend or even bypass the wire; for example, if one end of the wire is in the control console and the other end in underneath the machine.
It will then be up to you to figure out exactly where that break is; there is no magic way.
In addition to telling the motor when to run, it may also activate the heating circuit or heating control circuits, humidity-sensing circuits, etc. Solid state timers are difficult and expensive to diagnose. If you suspect a timer problem in a solid-state system, you can try replacing it, but remember that it's expensive and non-returnable (being an electrical part.) If you have one of these units that's defective, you can check into the cost of replacing it, but it's been my experience that you usually will end up just replacing the whole dryer or calling a technician.

If you do call a technician, make sure you ask up front whether they work on solid-state controls. Most timers are nothing more than a motor that drives a set of cams which open and close switches. Yet it is one of the most expensive parts in your dryer, so don't be too quick to diagnose it as the problem. Replace the timer or timer drive motor, or have it rebuilt as described below. Timers can be difficult to diagnose. If none of the other components are bad, then it may be the timer. Remember that a timer is simply a set of on-off switches. Following the shaded circuit in figure G-7, you test the door switch, push-to-start switch and centrifugal switch. Make sure the timer is in the "on" position and slowly turn the timer all the way through a full cycle. Be patient!) You should see continuity make and break at least once in the cycle; usually several times. If it's a common one, your parts dealer may even have a rebuilt one in stock. For the most part, if your timer is acting up, you need to replace it. There may be several different thermostats side by side; for example 135 degrees for low temperature, 165 for high temperature, etc. Naturally, it is a bit more expensive than regular thermostats, and difficult to test. You can test a thermostat as described in section 1-4(b) by testing for continuity across its terminals. A cold cool-down stat should show no continuity. If a thermostat fails into a closed position, there is a danger that the heating system will continue operating until something catches fire.
Replace it. THERMISTORSA thermistor is a "variable resistor" whose resistance varies with temperature. Rather than just turning the heating circuit on and off as thermostats do, dryers with solid-state (computer logic board) controls can use a thermistor's input to control the drum temperature more closely. This can result in lower energy usage. Thermistors are tested by measuring resistance across them with a VOM. This is done in one of two ways. When the air in the drum is moist, the water in it absorbs heat to evaporate. This keeps the air temperature lower, and it takes longer to heat up.   The thermostat on the drum exhaust will keep the heating system on longer. In these systems, that same thermostat controls the timer motor; while the heating system is on, the timer motor is not running, and vice-versa. So when the clothes get drier, the exhaust air temperature gets higher more quickly, the heating system doesn't stay on for as long and the timer motor runs more, ending the cycle sooner. The thermostats in these machines have three leads.
If the symptoms lead you to suspect that yours is defective, just replace it. Besides heating more slowly, moist air also conducts electricity better than dry air. So another way the engineers design a humidity sensor is to put two electrical contacts inside the dryer drum. The electrical currents conducted by the air are so low that an electronic circuit is needed to sense when the air is moist, but essentially the same thing happens in this system as in the other. When the air is dry, the timer motor runs longer and times out sooner. The sensors in these machines tend to get coated with gummy stuff, especially if you use a lot of fabric softener in the wash or starch in ironing. The circuit board could have gone bad, too; there is no good way to test it with out a lot of expensive equipment.
The problem is that the heater operates on 220 volts, but the timer motor runs on 110 volts.
There is a resistor in the system to cut down the voltage (see figure G-6(a) and if this resistor is bad, you will see the same symptoms as if the thermostat was bad: the timer motor will not run in the automatic cycle. If you have one of these dryers, make sure you test the resistor for continuity, in addition to the thermostat. OTHER TEMPERATURE CONTROLS Selecting which thermostat is used may be done inside the timer, or there may be a separate multi-switch that accomplishes this.
So much, in fact, that if it is allowed to continue being energized in a stalled state, it will start burning wires.
To prevent this, an overload switch is installed on motors to cut power to them if they don't start within a certain amount of time. If the motor is trying to start, but can't, you will hear certain things. In some extreme cases, you may even smell burning. If you hear the motor doing this, but it won't start, disconnect power and take all the load off it. If you have an ammeter, the stalled motor will be drawing 10 to 20 amps or more. STARTING SWITCH Dryers have a centrifugal starting switch mounted piggyback on the motor.
There are many sets of contacts inside the switch, and each design is different, even among dryers of the same brand.
Testing the switch is most easily accomplished by replacing it. Remember that starting switches are electrical parts, which are generally not returnable.
If you test the switch by replacing it, and the problem turns out to be the motor itself, you will probably not be able to return the starting switch for a refund.
When buying a new motor, make sure that the pulley can be changed over, or else get a new pulley with the new motor. It may save you a second trip to the parts dealer.   2-4(e) IGNITORSYou can test the ignitor by testing for resistance across the element. Like ignitors, they should show quite a bit of resistance, and defective heaters will usually show no continuity at all.2-4(g) TERMINAL BLOCKIn most electric dryer installations, there is a 220 volt wall plug. If the dryer does not seem to be getting power, but you do have power at the wall outlet, you also need to check the terminal block for problems as shown below.
Replace it if there is any sign of problems. Make sure all wiring is clear and make sure you don't touch any bare wires or terminals, plug the dryer back in briefly, and check the terminal block for power across all three legs as described in sections 1-4(a) and 2-4. Then remove power again at the breaker or fuse.2-5 AIRFLOWAirflow is EXTREMELY important in EVERY dryer. It can come on suddenly (like if something happens to the dryer vent outside the house) or it can show up as a progressive problem, as lint slowly builds up in the dryer exhaust system.First, check the lint screen.
I think it's a tribute to Whirlpool engineering that the thing was still running at all with that much lint in it. If the lint screen is clean, check the exhaust system between the dryer and the house outlet. A really easy way is to disconnect the exhaust system and run the dryer for a few minutes with it venting directly into the house.
If the dryer functions normally, the exhaust system is clogged. If none of the above works, the internal ducting or blower fan is clogged or malfunctioning. Again, it's a loud grinding sound, as if you were sticking something into a moving blower fan.

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