Simple maths tells us that Britain paying ?40 million a day to the EU would mean an annual contribution of ?14.6 billion. In other words, the EU costs us 7.75 times LESS than it does to keep the international bailiffs from the door. So, ?31 billion in interest payments, for which we see no return whatsoever, versus ?4 billion in payments to the EU, from which even its harshest critics must admit that we get *some* benefits – even if they will only admit to cheaper mobile phone charges or ease of travel. The British government may waste money, but that is not a reason for us to waste more by giving it to the EU.That`s if it is a waste, can you persuade us otherwise ? We may not be in the Schengen Agreement but there is the Free Movement Of People pillar of the EU.
As for trusting of the EU and UK institions, I tend to trust neither, although individuals may be deserving of trust (I know one good EU functionary and the LibDims seem less venal than the other two parties lately ). I`m just a lorry driver with an IQ of 80, no qualifications but still prove that when pompous EUrophiles are bested they get even more obnoxious. The EU has and still does support social, political, economical and business activities across the UK. Fair enough, bad things happen, but they do so as much under national leadership (well, more so) than under EC policy making. The EU will of course cost money, because (like the British government) it spends a significant amount on external, non-EU aid, which only indirectly affects our quality of life.
First of all, Bravo, Hunter, for a wide-ranging, informative, argument in favour of the EU! Firstly thankyou for actually trying to put the case for the EU rather than the usual Glittering Generalities. Please also keep in mind that I am against Britian`s membership of this project, more than the project itself (although I dont think it will last ). European cities are tolerant of English speakers, it being the main international language.To me this is a weakness to us, as very many people and businesses arrogantly assume tenders and packaging can be done in just English.
If the EU supports social, political (!?!)economical and business activities across the UK it is with our money and is nothing that we could do ourselves, if we wish.
Consumer laws can still be made country to country and the increase in quality in Hungarian shopping is due to them leaving the Warsaw Pact and freeing their markets than the EU. Enviroment policy is something the EU and its supporters pushe because they hope to get supranational decisions,public transport is very poor in the UK so I cant see why you see that as an EU plus point,alternative energy is another moot point, the space agreement may or may not be a good point and trade agreements ? The EU`s civil service may be smaller than the UK`s or even Yorkshires, but they give directives to the UK`s (or Yorkshires) to implement, not the other way round.It may be proactive (what does that mean here)and productive but shoulsn`t they be that anyway ? Sorry to hear about your computer glitch, and apologies for coupling you to the failed history teacher, Mat GBH.
Point 5 was a reference to a point I made earlier to Robin on transport initiatives; that similar initiatives in Scotland were established to ensure locals had transport to the mainland (previous modes had proven to be unsustainable, so they are now running at a cost covered by the EU). 3; Our policies are affected, even if the UK government and Immigration Service are being sly about it.
As regards packaging that is best left to companies to initiate, and controls would have to be mat to tarade with any country, inor out of the EU. 5;If I lived on a remote Scottish island and it needed any initiatives I would expect the government to which I elect representatives and takes my taxes to meet these needs. We can donate directly to African countries either by our own government or through charity, UKIP wouldn`t be needed if we were not in the EU (and the pro EU groups would not recieve anything ) EUrostars is not needed in a properly functioning market, and id it were we could organise it ourselves,no need to send money to the EU for it to take a slice and intervene in the marketplace.
We should harmonise certian trade standards, but we have the ISO for that, so again no need for us to be in the EU.
9;Russia supllies more to other EU countries and our stocks are low because the government does not have a coherent energy policy.
I dont want to be any more tied to other Europeans than I do to any other continent or race.
We share just as much or little of our culture ,lifestyles,economies and ideologies with other people of the world than we do with Europeans.
I`m not bothered about being a superpower or world power and am fully aware that the Empire is a fraction of what it was.
The European Union, in a wild west setting, is the troop of pioneers heading west to start a new life and, attacked by injuns, they pull their wagons into a circle and fire out, praying either the Seventh cavalry show, or that somehow they can drive the injuns back into the hills.
Robin, How can I say bravo to you when (from my point of view) your arguments are almost all negative, i.e. Really I dont expect plaudits from you or any other EUrophile (but abuse doesn`t help any understanding ) because we are on different sides. Because the senior civil service make a large part of their excuse for their maladministration on the EU, we take a look at the EU.
Fresco of Approving of bylaw of Society of Jesus depicting Ignatius of Loyola receiving papal bull Regimini militantis Ecclesiae from Pope Paul 3. This group bound themselves by a vow of poverty and chastity, to "enter upon hospital and missionary work in Jerusalem, or to go without questioning wherever the pope might direct". They called themselves the Company of Jesus, and also Amigos En El Senor or "Friends in the Lord," because they felt "they were placed together by Christ." The name had echoes of the military (as in an infantry "company"), as well as of discipleship (the "companions" of Jesus).
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Mililani Mauka and Mililani ‘Ike Elementary Schools tied for most caps collected overall, while St. Some inspiring stories and photos from the schools are available on the Kokua Hawai‘i Foundation blog page.
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What about the EU funds that are paid back to the UK in the form of things like the European Regional Development Fund, European Social Fund and the like? The UK may be forking out a net figure of around ?4 billion a year for EU membership, but at the same time we’re having to pay ?31 billion a year merely to service the INTEREST on our debt. I know that that means Brits are allowed to live and work in other EU countries, but that`s not a fair trade off for us. Objective 1 is a great starting point to see what the EU has done for the UK, and I can tell you there are a fair number of initiatives under this. No governance institution is perfect, but the EU has done a pretty damn good job, its civil service is a fraction of the size of any other European civil service (hell it has fewer employees than the British government laid off last year) and it appears to be far more proactive and productive than most, though this is of course subjective speculation on my part.
However, coupled with the benefits it achieves at home, and the development assistance it provides to the third world, I find it hard to believe the EU is such a bad thing.
Dont forget I am an Ex TIR driver.As such the initiatives will probably be of no use to us.
Nevertheless, you may prove it in the future or at least negate the drawbacks of our membership. The EU is not responsible for the UK’s failings in terms of immigration and emmigration and, as such, cannot form part of your rebuff to my comments. It is more stringent than other Western European countries, I can look like a hobo and cross any Western Europe border without molestation, whereas the UK still has border controls (hell I was arrested by Her Majesty’s Counter Terrorist Unit last time I was in Heathrow because I looked too suspicious and have a problem with stripping in public). I think you meant European Village, and they are, as member states of the European Union, entitled to representation, that is, after all, the essence of democracy. As an ex-TIR driver, the initiatives might not be of use to you, but it is just one example.


Political (!?!) – The EU is a strong advocate of civil society and non state actors, who they see as vital to the creation and maintenance of a healthy democracy. EPO (European Patent Office) – No, I have never applied for a patent, nor do I intend to, but I can wholly support the initiative. With Russia controlling up to 75% of our oil and gas, I think you may find energy is less of a moot point than you may believe; we will, as supplies start to dwindle and Russia turns the heat up, so to speak, find that we become the toy soldiers of others. The EU is an opportunity for the Member States of Europe to develop the continent of Europe, and ensure that our lifestlyes, culture, economies and ideologies can survive.
I do like my Glittering Generalities, they make things far easier to explain however, as Hunter S. Why should we?We could meet any trading conditions to do business with any EU country as we have to to do business with a country outside the EU.
Why are so many Romanians and Bulgarians working here when the Government said they will have no access to the labour market ? Except in reply to your point at 9.34 if you dont beleive in the Houses of Parliament or want to be in the Church of England then you can only fight it, not cooperate with its aims and objectives. I`ve delivered to France with the temp gauge of a trailer inaccurate and it wasaccepted but marked on the CMR as above +6.The point is, commercial concerns overide and dont need the EU ).
You can also pick up Stella,(I have by the trailer load )Leffe and Duvel, as well as other products, in non EU countries.
Possibly the EU may be of limited benefit, but again only because of the laziness of our administration, very often caused by our being in the EU. The EU would have something to do with it, except you forget that the UK does not subscribe to Schengen and the EU border control laws. Russia supplies 75% of the EU’s energy, the UK while less reliant, still needs Russian energy supplies. My arguments will be negative because that is my experience of the EU, as you are negative about Mrs Thatcher because of your experience.You feel the EU has helped you personnally so it`s understandable you are a EUrophile. Ignatius of Loyola, who after being wounded in a battle, experienced a religious conversion and composed the Spiritual Exercises to closely follow Christ. The fresco was created by Johann Christoph Handke in the Church of Our Lady Of the Snow in Olomouc after 1743. Mililani ‘Ike and Mililani Mauka Elementary schools tied for most caps collected, while St. More than 50 schools, pre-school to high school, public, charter and private, participated in this  year's inaugural challenge. 1 through March 31, was an initiative to collect and recycle plastic bottle caps that are normally thrown away (they don't belong in the blue bin, in case you didn't know). Elizabeth School collected most caps per capita and won a special performance by Jack Johnson. Folks at Reynold's Recycling helped collect plastic bottle caps (which don't go in the reverse vending machines) to help schools participating in the Kokua Hawai‘i Foundation's Bottle Cap Challenge. Jesse The Tailor Jim's Hidden Treasures Joe's Rusty Nail Restaurant Johnston Self Storage Joyce's Antique Emporium of Bellevue (Antiques & Uniques) Just Playin Norman J. There are a series of transport initiatives, some underway for over a decade now, that try to maintain transport links between remote UK islands and the mainland, often in Scotland. Then of course you have the European Patent Office; now that it is a pan-European organisation, British inventors and innovators can safely secure the intellectual property rights on their ideas without having to worry about it being manufactured in another European country for cheaper, while the inventor struggles to muster the funds to fight them in the courts. Instead of facing up to this issue, the government imported labour and thought problem solved. A new customs building between Austria and Hungary, for example, will not be used by a Brit now.
If you ever manage to get the EU one, you still have to go to the court of the land in whatever EU country your patent has been infringed. Norway pay extortionate sums of money to maintain trade links with Europe; Britain will pay far more, mostly due to its larger population.
If you were an ex-TIR driver who lived on a remote Scottish island, you would be very grateful for those initiatives; the are the sole form of transport these people have to the mainland (and, as such, they have saved lives).
These will be of vital importance under the 10th EDF, and have been of significant importance under the 9th, where the EU provided a vast amount of support to African organisations.
Again, businesses seeking to develop an idea, need to protect it, and the EPO is developing into an entity which will not only ensure that Europe operates and similar if not the same legislation, but will ensure the safety of business ideas. However, you may find the French would decide that meat destined for export to the UK could be kept at a frosty 35°C, thus ensuring it was putrid by the time it reached us. United, Europe is the world’s largest economy (by a hair), divided, we are on the border of Russia, a world superpower (on whom we rely for a large amount of our energy), and are bordered by relatively unstable states, or alien ideologies, to the South and East. Thompsson once said, if you’re going to call someone a pig violator (and I cleaned that up) you better be able to produce the pig (and I always keep one to hand). In essence, it cannot be said that every EU initiative helps every EU citizen; many only help those whose needs have not or cannot be otherwise met through local, community of government intervention. I do not benefit from EU healthcare,medicine food etc because I dont go to the EU thanks to my industry being destroyed mainly by the EU. But gaining a patent is a very complicated, long, expensive and of dubious merit (copyright may be better ).Please do not think that if you have a patent that is the end of your troubles.
Our renewable energy targets are not needed to be set by the EU any more than America or Angola.
I`ve even tried to help EUrophiles to put their case, the Glittering Generalities are eventually no help to you because once they are seen through, you have too much uphill work to regain trust.
You can either look at the direct costs (without benefits) of needing to adhere to and implement the European trading standards, competition standards and quality standards, without having any say in how they are developed, or the indirect costs, which would be a loss of business due to the fact that it would be simpler for a lot of countries to just do business with other EU countries, and that Brits would have a far harder time setting up abroad.
As such, the Free Movement of People is irrelevant, it is not a policy Britain subscribes to. As mentioned, they are working here because they have just escaped 50 odd years of communism, and we have jobs to spare.
I assumed you meant EU Village, and simply made the point that they would be considered as local as any other member state citizen.
We paid our taxes to an EU government, it listened to its constituents and took some action. Certainly simpler than taking out 27 different patents, you can do it online and while it does cost money, it always has cost money. I don’t even need to provide you with sources demonstrating Russian intent as regards energy and I can assure you, were war to become a viable notion, would Europe turn on Russia, or the UK? Because Europeans have belived for almost two centuries now that they are the centre of the universe. You can get a mild idea of what it was like when you remember the game, very popular before the Euro, of someone taking, say, ?100 for a trip round Europe.
The caps collected have been sent to California to be recycled into new products, including Method's Ocean Plastic bottle and Preserve toothbrush and razor handles. And if you've been to a recycling redemption center, you find out that you need to remove them before feeding the reverse-vending machines.
Fifth grade students at Kahala Elementary volunteered to help unscrew caps at Honolulu Zoo. Maria Simbra of KDKA Pittsburgh Publicly tell the World, on the Internet and TV, whether AHN murders healthy patients for organs, via fabricated diagnosis, fraudulent life-support, torture thereby, and Morphine overdose. Maybe a million Brits go to Spain, but that should be an issue for the Spaniards, not as it is now. On top of this, it may seem strange but several European cities are quite tolerant of English speakers, it is easier for a Brit (who doesn’t speak anything other than English) to get a job anywhere in Europe, while finding a job for a Spaniard in Germany is not going to be so easy. If he returns, he is classed as a returning, not an immigrant.Thus you can see a discrepancy there.
Eg; if it is copied in Finland you must get a court case there,which doesn`t deter a Slovakian company infringing there. They are designed to help those who need help, not those who don’t, and you have benefitted through EU wide initiatives on healthcare, medicine, food, consumer protection rights and human rights, so it is not as if nothing is being done for you.


That is, if a British company develops hoverpants (underwear that can make the user levitate), the Poles can’t just snap it up and develop it at one tenth of the cost due to their lower wages.
These EU wide standards ensure not only that we give good quality produce, but that we recieve it.
Again, Europe’s best chance stands at unity, pooling our resources to develop alternate sources of energy in each nation.
The UK is no longer the British Empire, but a small island off the West Coast of a series of small countries. It occurs to me, too, though not a drinker of alcohol, myself, that wine (especially from France) seems to have become a good deal cheaper and more-widely accessible than of yore. This was followed by a reassurance that all EU citizens have benefited, in some way, from EC policy or EC financed initiatives, that the EU has, in fact, positively impacted everyone’s life in some way, be it hygiene standards, food quality or medicines regulation, competition, consumer rights or pricing.
When I did live in Europe I had insurance, and when my human rights were violated the MEP was useless. The Polish factory can still produce your underwear even if not legally, and certianly can legally for the first four years while your patent is considered. The UK’s inability to play ball with Europe has already cost it enough, and pulling out will cost more, I can assure you our European neighbours would not make it easy. Britain has closed borders, I reiterate, no undesired entry, no Free Movement of People, no Schengen, no visa no entry, etc. So yeah, EU needed, it works like the British government, only it picks up the slack where the Brits fall down, do you see the beauty of it?
The EU is pressing for increased civil society and non state actor engagement in politics because it is a far more transparent governance system; if the EU is under scrutiny all of the time, it has no choice but to be squeaky clean. The Polish factory can produce it, but if they are in breach of patent laws, then you’ll win the court case. The energy research undertaken by the EU, notably in the fields of nuclear fusion and renewable energies (some of which have already been implemented in the UK) is invaluable, and may have already done more than we can imagine. Truth is we are tiny, we are weak, we are surrounded by alien cultures, hostile profiteers and world powers who seek little but to use us as pawns in their game; Britain learned this when it cut ties with the EU and built them with the US. Keystone Rehabilitation Systems KFC Klauscher Architects Knights of Columbus Council #1400 Jonathon Kohler, DDS P.C.
Monda, DMD Mount Assisi Academy PreschoolMount Zion Baptist Church Mt Assisi Convent Mt Nazareth Center Muddy Cup Coffee House Lisa M. If anything, the Brits stand to benefit most from EU membership, as English is widely spoken and so useful in international circles that, like some kind of playground craze, every company should have a Brit! I might say they cause building-vibration, block motorways; you could argue that’s to do with roads, not HGVs, and anyway how would I expect goods to be transported economically across large areas? Again, not the fault of the EU, if anything something that is partially resolved by the EU. A new customs building between Austria and Hungary would not be created, as they are both EU member states.
You may find the Eurostars initiative unnecessary, but I can assure you new and small business would be more than happy to receive funding, whether British or not.
It is increasingly protecting the interests of European citizens and, in this case, British business. Would Britain have developed the level of renewable energy without the European fora providing their resources and research for evaluation of the sector, and without providing dialogue on the suggestions, I can certainly tell you that they have been of use. Without the European Union, there is nothing to stop others determining our future through the enjeux and games played by the international superpowers (of which Brazil, India and China are now members). I do eat, though, and remember clearly the 1950s when spaghetti, for example, seemed a rare and exotic dish. After that, you can expensively take them to court, and recieve royalties for the years they have stolen your idea. Besides, if the UK then changed its mind, realising what a mistake it had made, well not only would it look a bit ridiculous, but I can assure you the cost would, again, be higher.
If the British government was your dad, the EU would be there to tell your dad to STFU when he got a bit lairy.
Of course what you say may be true, but then we are better off today than we were sixty years ago. The EU works in favour of commerce to ensure fair competition, decent standards and free movement of goods, facilitating trade and bring down the costs, thus making European nations stronger on the international market.
This has been mocked viciously, but I can assure you that this ensure standards of produce that we now take for granted. It may be unnecessary, but it still serves a purpose, one that is wholly beneficial to the private sector development of the UK.
60 years ago, if it was developed in Finland, but conceived in England, an English business would not stand a snowman’s chance in hell, so here the EPO represents progress. Anyhow, what is so wrong about communicating with our neighbours to ensure we can all harmonise our standards and legislation, thus making trade easier; French cheeses, Spanish wines, German sausages and Belgian beer can all be sold with the stamp of good quality. Initiatives such as the Fusion reactor under CERN, which may guarantee us an efficient and cheap source of energy for a significant amount of time, would not have been available to us today without the EU. The European Union is every European country’s best chance not only at a decent lifestyle, but at determining our own future, our own democracy, our rights and regulations, our ideologies and, ultimately, our survival. However, the European Union has enabled Europeans to coordinate their development efforts, ensuring both that development work is not doubled and that it has a purpose, like Cotonou, that principles can be established for donor cooperation, notably under the Paris Declaration, which has and still is harmonising donor activities, while making them more accountable and transparent, and ensure, lastly, that we learn the lessons of our mistakes; Transmigration IV, a World Bank funded project from the 70s and 80s would be a great case in point. I would rather have our targets set by the EU than our prices set by Russia; again it really is in our interests to play ball. After 2 years of unsuccessful job applications (with 3 million on the dole, not surprising) I moved from Glasgow to Manchester. Hell only five years ago, you bought five peaches in Hungary, two were rotten, two were flavourless and the last, thankfully and redeemingly, was the best damn peach you ever tasted.
It is one of the reasons why, today, and not 30 years ago, you are able to pick up Stella, Leffe or Duvel in almost any decent supermarket. It is not a case of whether Britain should or should not be in this project (judging by the immature election of 2 BNP and, I believe, 16 UKIP members, who will not represent our best interest within, and I stress within, the European Parliament, perhaps it shouldn’t), but it is a case of what Britain wants. Europe is the last, best hope that Europeans have of preserving our ways of life, even if we have to make sacrifices. In fact, attemoting to resolve the problems internationally at the top, rather than billions of individual times on the ground, with everybody trying to block everybody else…. Anyhow, the point is that it is EU legislation that ensures that your average Robin or Hunter gets a high standard of fruit, veg and meat wherever he goes, as long as the legislation is being enforced.
The EU offers the opportunity to move forward, to develop the democratic principles by which we live, to hone and perfect them and, through dialogue, to ensure that every nation in Europe can evolve, instead of devolve. In fact the first coach-driver I had as a European tour-guide in 1984 was a Dutchman who had, himself, been a lorry-driver. It also has to be said that witnessing the brutal putting down of the miners, and the Sunday a.m. Okay no bendy cucumbers or phallus shaped apples, but a very consistent and high level of quality accross the board. The reason we didn’t have this influx before now is because there was a damn great wall lying smack across Europe until 1990.
So I don’t understand why YOU PERSONALLY, if not out of ideology, are against the EU. Then you have the environment, public transport, alternative energy sources, the space programmes, trade agreements. Again, the EU has enabled the UK to have a ready stock of these, it is so cheap and easy to shift goods around that we do now have these beers, almost everywhere; it was certain not this good a decade ago.
So, much as I respect your right to express your opinion, it is difficult for me to applaud it….



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