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He was dead wrong - a SNAFU that led to complete abandonment of the heating system he installed.
The nonsensical view that one can heat up the soil below an building slab on grade and that the soil would magically stay warm forever was put to the test experts when the author was five years old and the contractor was not even a gleam in his daddy's eye. During February and March 1948, using a specially built, instrumented structure, Harlan Bareither and other experts and students at the University of Illinois Department of Mechanical Engineering conducted careful tests of various slab on grade floor and insulation designs to map heat loss, temperature, and moisture permeation characteristics of nine types of concrete slab subfloor constructions laid on the ground.
Previously, the US National Bureau of Standards had already indicated that the heat loss of a concrete slab (floor) on grade (on the ground) is proportional to the perimeter of the building. The 1948 heat loss research was important in part because it recognized that the rate of heat transfer from the heated building to the outside (earth and surrounding air) would be greater in proportion to the temperature difference between the heated space and the surrounding soils.
Unable to heat the building: Even running the radiant floor heating system full time at the highest boiler settings and control settings allowed we could never heat the building to comfortable temperatures during cold Minnesota winters. Details about this radiant floor slab heat failure and and research on its cause are provided below.
Place the radiant heat tubing at the industry-recommended depth down from the surface of the slab.
If your contractor is an opinionated bully like ours who ridicules standards for good workmanship and proper radiant heat floor design, find someone else to do the work.
The floor slab and radiant heat tubing had been placed by the contractor while we were unable to attend the jobsite. The boiler was already operating at spec in that it was producing more than 20 degrees between the input line and output line - so the problem is not flow but rather the inability of the boiler to handle the heat loss through the slab due to the slab tubing placement and insulation design. We didn't have the option of taking advantage of reduced electrical rates because the electrician did not install the electrical service to our specifications - leaving out a separate service and meter at the entry point.
Meanwhile we shut down this unfortunate radiant slab heat system, installed a few portable electric heaters, and given the tight, well-insulated construction, we found we can keep the little cabin comfortable for a fraction of the cost of heating the earth underneath our floor with the contractor's heating installation. Photographs of the slab and radiant tubing installation for the cabin show that the guidelines for radiant heat slab installations were not followed. Tubing is at a depth greater than 2" from the top of the slab and at some locations is considerably deeper than that, in some areas more than 12" deep in concrete.
Insulation is incomplete within the slab where tubing installed at a lower level is stepped down from the upper slab level and heat transfer is permitted into the gravel fill below the main slab area. Eagle River, WI commented on this article that the contractor's promise of heating the building for $20. The building was super insulated, tiny, airtight, with double-glazing throughout, leading to an expected low heating cost.
In fact, the utility cost to heat this tiny cabin resulted in bills that more than doubled the corresponding costs of the nearby 1960's vintage two story large old, comparatively poorly-insulated house on the same property, exposed to the same conditions.
The effects of putting the tubing deep into the slab created a problem of heat transfer losses to the ground, not just a matter of longer response time to warm the building. The problem with very deep radiant-heat tubing, combined with incomplete insulation, is that even with just 12 to 18" of concrete above the tubing, heat flowed enough into the ground below the building that even with the thermostat set to maximum, and running heat continuously for a week solid, in moderately cold weather (in the 40's in Northern Minnesota where in winter it can drop to 20 deg F below zero) we never ever could get the indoor temperature above 59 to 60 °F. The contractor and others tried to improve the system's performance by changing the boiler settings from those set by the manufacturer on its integrated circuit control board, upping the circulator size and capacity, checking flow rate through the system, checking the thermostat controls. Our photo (left) shows where we found the radiant heat floor tubing when we later broke open a section of the floor slab. Our photo above on this page shows that tubing was in some sections more than 18" deep, and adjacent to a large area where sub-slab insulation was simply omitted by the contractor. We also measured floor temperatures in different areas of the building, mapping clearly where the radiant heat tubing dropped to the bottom of the footing-portion of the monolithic-slab footings! As our reference document(s) below show by calculation and model, ultimately, the heat flow into the ground for tubing really too deep in the slab can be significant, even if there is insulation below all or part of the slab. Despite varying opinion by some radiant floor installers, consumers, and installers as well should be wary of ignoring the advice of the radiant heating design experts and heat transfer engineers about tubing depth in radiant floor slabs shown just below.
Worse than too-deep radiant floor heating tubing, in this case, because the contractor put NO insulation at the area of soil where he stepped the slab down to the depth of the monolithic integrated footings, we have heat transfer from some of the tubing through concrete right into the cold soil, not just through concrete up into the room through the ceramic tile floor. In this egregious error, even worse than putting radiant heat tubing too deep in the slab, insulation was simply omitted where the floating-slab monolithic footings were poured. As an aside the ceramic tile on the finished floor slab was set in mastic - leaving some air spaces and mastic that is a poor conductor compared with tile set in concrete (optimal) - but we doubt that's nearly as important in the system failure in this case. Our photo (left) illustrates a successful radiant heat system installation in Minneapolis, MN - a climate simliar to that where we had trouble with the Two Harbors system above. THIS IS NOT OUR SLAB- which is has tubing at 6" deep and along one side where the tubing is deeper, 10-12" or more.
Considering the tradeoffs, perhaps it is time we pay more attention to quality control procedures to ensure that performance is not compromised as concrete is poured over radiant tubing circuits. When future archeologists dig up the ruins of our buildings several centuries from now, will they ponder why we put the heating tubing at the bottom of the slab? Heating energy costs will increase consistent with the increase in heating water operating temperature requirements. John Siegenthaler, is a professional engineer specializing in radiant heat designs and heat transfer theory in buildings.
Reader Question from Wenell: I would like to know what the persons that wrote and researched this article thinks about what Montana has on research. One thing we have found that if the soil conditions are quite damp, there definitely needs to have some type of insulation under the slab. Another theory I have read is that the heat as it goes down, which it will, some is that it radiates horizontally, which makes insulating the edge quite well. Wendell, there is not actually any contradiction between the Montana (DOE) research you cite above and radiant heat floor slab insulation requirements. I've read quite a lot of supporting research on slab and slab perimeter insulation for radiant heat flooring, and I have some direct experience with installing radiant heat and more with inspecting radiant heat flooring problems.
Quoting from the conclusions of the Montana DOE-sponsored study you cite, [2] [photo at left showing interior foundtation insulation before the slab is poured, U.S. This study shows that insulating slab edges with R-10 insulation to 4-ft depth along the slab edge saves about 3% annual energy and reduces annual fuel cost by between 1 and 2%.
Although the current installation practice in Montana does not extend the interior footing insulation to the top of the slab, based on empirical data, this study concludes that irrespective of the insulation installation configuration, Montana buildings will save energy by insulating the slab edge with R-10 insulation to a depth of 4 ft. This study, using eQUEST, Version 3.0 simulation modeling, compared full versus partial slab perimeter insulation schemes and found that there was useful energy cost savings even with partial insulation. The local practice of insulating the slab footing on the interior allows heat loss along the slab perimeter and thus does not achieve the full savings that could be achieved with full edge insulation configurations, but the savings are still significant. The risk in misinterpreting the Montana study conclusions above would be to apply them generally to radiant heat floor designs and that to improperly infer that complete under-radiant-heat-floor-slab insulation is not needed in cold climates. The earth in a cold climate like Montana or Minnesota, is for practical and design purposes, an infinite heat sink.
As the principal author of this material I relied largely on the concrete industry and the radiant flooring industry's radiant floor slab design specifications and advice [1] as they, above all, have a huge vested interest in their installations being successful. There is no doubt that in virtually every radiant-heat-floor-slab design we need continuous insulation under the slab and at slab perimeter, though the appropriate insulation amount might vary depending on the local climate.
As is often the case with small contractors in remote areas and without expertise, he was "winging it". Just how bad an uninsulated, under-insulated, or incompletely insulated floor slab will perform with radiant in-slab floor heating depends on some additional variables: climate, soil moisture (read thermal conductivity as you suggest), and critically, the depth of tubing in the slab. But in the horrible installation we describe in these articles, the contractor not only provided incomplete and no perimeter slab insulation, he also buried the tubing so deep in the concrete that heat moved much more down into the cold earth than upwards into the occupied space. If the floor slab had been very well insulated, the installation still would not have performed well because of the excessive tubing depth in the slab ( over 12" down in some sections ).
I appreciate the Montana reference and have added it to this article below at references [2]. They place the foam down and put the pex directly to this and then place 4 to 6" of sand on top before pouring the floor.

The deeper you put radiant heating tubing in the slab the worse the heating system will perform in delivering heat to the interior. The expert sources I found on this want tubing in the concrete and very close to the slab top surface, an inch or two at most down is best. I agree that if there is enough insulation under the slab and it's well done and complete, in the design (foam, tubing, sand, concrete) you describe you will eventually probably warm the slab upper surface, but consider that there are heat flow rates through insulation too, it's not "heat proof". With 6" of sand and say nominally 6" of concrete, your tubing is 12" down - way too deep, and furthermore, the first 6" of material (sand) between the tubing and the occupied space, does not quite the same level of thermal conductivity as tubing in contact with solid concrete. The sources I cite at references below point out that there is heat flow resistance through concrete and sand as well. Finally, the supposition that "if they have floor problems they can remove anything they need to" sounds highly suspect to me - it's not thought out. The following un-edited discussions, a continuation of RADIANT HEAT MISTAKES, illustrates efforts to track down the reason that a radiant-heat slab system is not heating adequately.
Yes individual circuits or loops can clog, particularly if they were run as separate loops off of a main. But a thermal scan of the floor can often find where leaks are occurring by noticing the spread of heat pattern. We have not done thermal imaging, but what exactly would that show, or should we be looking for if we are able to do it?
2) Pump is unable to circulate the hot water quick enough through the system, and is actually the reason why the system isn't able to stay ahead.
Our plumber wants to more the thermostat because he feels that the fish tank that is about 4 feet away may be pushing heat into the thermostat, confusing it.
If you turn on and run up the heat the image will show hot and cold spots that might tell us that the layout was insufficient, the loops mis-run, that there's been a leak, or that there are sections that look uninsulated; a thermography scan of the building exterior can give similar information around the floor perimeter. In the article above I document what happens in a cold climate if the insulation is incomplete or the tubing too deep in the slab. Certainly you can test the plumber's idea by simply insulating the thermostat from the fish and from any warm air drafts but I doubt that's needed.
I've suggested tubing too deep in slab and also tubing that runs through a too-cold section without proper insulation; you need to check the output and return temps at the boiler.
I would not abandon the radiant heat system before we have a clear list of everything that has been investigated - so that we can compare that with other ideas that need to be checked.
Before bringing in a plumber let's do some detective work: get a detailed thermographic scan of the floor and of the perimeter of the bottom of the building in cold weather with the heat on. Continue reading at RADIANT HEAT TEMPERATURES or select a topic from the More Reading links or topic ARTICLE INDEX shown below. Steven Bliss served as editorial director and co-publisher of The Journal of Light Construction for 16 years and previously as building technology editor for Progressive Builder and Solar Age magazines.
Takagi radiant heat systems: Takagi offers pre-assembled radiant heating system installation packages including for do-it-yourself'ers, and including systems that combine radiant heat flooring with domestic hot water production using a gas-fired tankless water heater. DIGITAL NON-PROGRAMMABLE THERMOSTAT FOR HYDRONIC RADIANT FLOOR HEATING - Quyoting: D-508F digital non-programmable heat only thermostat is designed to control either ambient(air) temperature (A Mode) or floor temperature (F Mode) or a combination of ambient temperature with floor temperature limits(AF Mode). John Cranor is an ASHI member and a home inspector (The House Whisperer) is located in Glen Allen, VA 23060.
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Kami Mengutamakan Pelayanan Terbaik Dan Produk Yang Berkualitas Akan Khasiat, Kemanjuran Serta Kealamiannya. Eye Care Softgel sangatlah aman untuk di konsumsi bagi semua kalangan baik untuk memelihara mata sehat maupun sebagai pengobatan mata, seperti mata katarak, mata merah, mata bengkak, mata bintitan mata belekan, mata minus, mata silinder, mata rabun mata lelah, mata piosi, mata hipermetropi, blukoma, pendarahan retina, retina lepas atau retina putus, mata akibat deabetes dan penyakit mata lainnya. How our contractor ruined the installation our radiant slab heating system, causing its abandonment.. Ultimately we had to completely abandon the radiant heat floor installation, wasting the costs of the boiler, tubing, installation labor, wiring, etc. Typically the maximum depth that tubing should be placed in a concrete floor slab is 2" down from the finished floor surface.
If the owner's actual heating bills for the structure had been even five times what was promised for this building that was occupied only part-time, the owners would have been happy. And the exploding heating costs were observed when heating the building well before the coldest part of the heating season.
Even if money had been no object, the system simply could not heat the building to an acceptable temperature. With radiant tubing at those depths, the concrete begins to offer not just a lag time in heating (Mr. Radiant tubing was at the bottom of the slab, in this area more than seven inches down in the concrete, and set atop the foam sub-slab insulation. That deep run, probably combined with the incomplete insulation at the level drop between slab bottom and the integrated footings, were almost certainly the prime cause of the failure of this system to heat the building.
In the structure described here, not only was some tubing 12 to 18" or even more below the slab top, the insulation below the slab was incomplete, inviting ready heat flow into surrounding soils. There is a performance penalty associated with leaving the tubing at the bottom of the slab vs. It doesn't predict the consequences of the longer response times associated with deeper tubing. The energy savings vary slightly depending on the insulation configuration and building type.
The payback period could vary from 4 years for small retail commercial buildings to 12 years in small office buildings. The study data includes comparison with fully-insulated slabs too, but most important for our discussion, it does not address radiant-in-floor-slab heating designs that, without full insulation, can find an easier heat flow into the ground than into the building - not what we want to see nor pay for in heating bills. That study makes a general conclusion for all Montana buildings and by no means does the conclusion adequately address radiant in-slab heating system designs.
A radiant floor slab heating system will, if improperly designed, keep pumping heat into the ground as long as the heat is turned on. The folks who seem to disagree have been people like the bully contractor who himself admitted he had never read instructions, attended a class, nor asked for expert advice.

There was so much heat loss that we could not get the room temperature up even in cold but not bitter cold weather, and even though the same contractor had done a great job insulating the upper portions of the structure's roof and walls.
But I suspect this may be a case of intelligent people who think things up on their own, make up an explanation that sounds reasonable, but may not know the whole story. So while it may not be intuitively obvious, and while it's true that the thermal conductivity of concrete and even sand (which is not as good as concrete) is greater than insulation, if we have enough sand or concrete above the tubing, and little-enough insulation below the tubing, heat flow down through the insulation can still be significant.
In any case you'd have to chop entirely through the floor slab to get to the tubing below, and meanwhile you are paying in higher heating bills than necessary over the life of the building. If there is a leak in radiant heat floor tubing the boiler may automatically take on make-up water through a water feeder valve so you may not recognize the leak, particularly if the leaking heating tubing leaks down into soils rather than up into the occupied space.
The energy is lost before it has a chance to heat the slab and when the system loses too much energy the time it takes the tank to reheat the coil all is lost and the system starts from square one again, and this constantly repeats itself, and the system essentially continuously chases it's tail. As well 4 feet below the thermostat is out fresh air vent, so the plumber feels that it may also be confusing the thermostat. It'd be appropriate IF the thermostat was turning OFF the heat - thus thinking that you're warm enough. I am hoping that the new plumber will be able to troubleshoot and try and figure out possible causes of why the system won't heat the slab. The fact that your radiant floor heat worked properly at one time suggests that (barring something odd like a rising water table) the concerns of a innate design or installation errors such as tubing too deep or insulation left out are pretty much squashed.
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Although the rate of heat loss through the floor slab is slower at the center of the floor than at the building perimeter (of an installation that is not insulated), in cold climates the heat loss through the floor will be continuous will be significantly greater at an uninsulated slab.
Darling's point) but also an actual resistance to heat transfer until we begin losing at least some heat into the ground.
These could be significant in situations where a building is recovering from a setback condition, or when heat flow from the slab needs to be reduced quickly to accommodate internal heat gains. Would they conclude that some builders of the time were just too lazy to bother lifting the tubing?
Siegenthaler principal of Appropriate Design, a consulting engineering firm specializing in hydronic heating design. The DOE photo (below left) shows a typical Montana construction practice that gives a thermal break between a concrete floor slab (not yet poured) and the exterior foundation wall. But the question I have is- in North and South Dakota there is a Cat dealer by the name of ButlerCat.
It has been a long drawn out battle to try and get the plumber to come, and the plumbers next solution was to shut the system off and pretend it was never there with no refund of our money.
It seems like people who take a look at our system are completely baffled as to why it won't work. D-502F is designed to control the floor temperature in Hydronic Radiant Floor Heating Systems. In addition, the large, easy to read LCD display with backlit makes the thermostat easy to operate and simple to program.
The controller reads the temperatures of the storage tank (T1) and of the collector (T2), when this differential temperature (T2-T1) is higher than a set value (dt), it will switch on the pump. Your initial investment will protect your components from all the challenges brought on by the elements, outdoors and in the boiler room. Frozen water expands and puts additional stress on backflow preventers and can cause them to break. For harsh winters, heat tracing is often installed to ensure backflow preventers stay in a safe temperature range. Some users don’t require belt loops but ask that the jacket fit snug over the component and heat trace.
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Being able to buy exactly the jacket you need means you don’t have to pay for un-needed insulation. This is a likely area of heat loss at all four sides of the building: where the slab dropped down to form footings. Thinking back to how ancient Romans used lead piping for water supplies, perhaps those archeologists will conclude that even after centuries of experience, we still had a hard time doing this pipe thing right. We saw this in astronomical heating bills and a cold building interior in the Minnesota home discussed above.
You can have a more conductive material above the tubing, but if you have a lot of it, the total heat flow resistance can still be significant. We will bring in a different plumber and also look into the thermal imaging that you suggested.
When we first got the system it only worked for a few short months in the winter, but it did work at one time. It is possible to limit the maximum temperature of the storage tank and also activate a freeze protection function. This loss of pressure causes contaminated liquid to be siphoned back into the drinking water through a cross-connection.
Several versions of this basic model were developed to simulate tubing at different depths with the slab. The pump is definitely pumping, and we have a pressure gauge on the system showing rougly 18 psi at return. I am just worried that the the plumber that I am bringing in won't be able to figure anything out for us, in which we will be left with a very expensive system that just won't work. By switching to manual mode it allows the test of the heating system by turning the pump ON or OFF. Thanks to Alan Carson and Bob Dunlop, for permission for InspectAPedia to use text excerpts from The Home Reference Book & illustrations from The Illustrated Home. The temperature does not climb in the basement and therefore the thermostat never stops asking for heat. The text is intended as a reference guide to help building owners operate and maintain their home effectively. Special Offer: For a 10% discount on any number of copies of the Home Reference Book purchased as a single order. Special Offer: For a 5% discount on any number of copies of the Home Reference eBook purchased as a single order.

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