Our Moderators review all comments for abusive and offensive language, and ensure comments are from Verified Users only.Please report a comment only if you feel it requires our urgent attention. Used games are a constant irritant for many in this industry - they're at best tolerated and at worst despised with a passion. Speaking to GamesIndustry International, Dyack remarked, "From a consumer side, [in the last few years] we started seeing used games really come into fruition, and I believe that has caused quite a problem. The biggest problem is that used games have essentially cut off the revenue tail for most titles, Dyack explained.
Dyack warned that if the pre-owned market continues unchecked it could threaten the industry as we know it. For its part, leading games retailer GameStop has unsurprisingly come to the defense of its used games empire. Beyond the pre-owned problem, the games industry also faces a problem of costs for triple-A projects spiraling out of control. Indeed, a mid-size developer could invest $40-$60 million in a triple-A project and if that title tanks at retail, it could truly wreak havoc on the company. I guess he knows a lot more about next gen than I don because I now 0, but don`t see how next gen games could cost 2-3 times more than what they cost now.
A game like the old republic is rumoured to have cost 200 million and that was developed over many many many years with a huge amount of people and I can`t see that a jump in graphics from HD graphics to better HD graphics can drive the cost for a 18 month dev cycle game to that price if the company is managed well and the dev process streamlined well. Second hand market isn`t great and yes sure GameStop is going on about how much that second hand sales makes them, but so did GAME and we see where that went without support of the games industry. Just don`t sell horse armor, Gears of War weapon skins for 60 bucks or on disc characters for 30 bucks. Now while you can argue used sales will continue to harm the profitability of these games, this is isn't a killer blow to the industry. 3) The increasing risk of developing AAA games brought about by spiralling budgets has almost nothing to do with used game sales. Regardless of development costs, it's naive to think that removing pre-owned automagically means developers (and publishers alike) will make more money from more people buying brand new games. Has there been a drop in total revenue for the games industry that coincides with the fall of the tail?
I'd rather see articles on this from economists, with varying informed opinions, as it's only economists who have the correct discipline to make sense of the information without distorting things with blaming anything that is involved.
And reducing the RRP would not substitute preowned altogether, because there's still the issue of (a) the first sale at full price and (b) we've no idea how much the early buyers who trade their new games also use that money to purchase used games. We need some more informed studies and a greater understanding not more fruitless opinions from notable faces.
There is an argument that very many customers are only willing to pay the ridiculous high prices of boxed console games because they can play them then put them in as part exchange against their next purchase.
The big effect of the secondhand market is that it forces customers to only buy games that they know will have a high secondhand value.
I don't think it's hard to see that the current situation with retail has forced the following business model: Drum up so much anticipation for a game that gamers want the game on release day and extract as much money as possible from these people as possible. And even if retailers stopped selling used games - that doesn't stop consumers from selling used games to friends (rather than the stores) like the good old days. You can't sell your mobile apps and games second hand on your phone, or your Steam games, and no one seems to mind. I'm also thinking of Alan Wake's American Nightmare, which seems like a reuse of the original Alan Wake's source material to make a totally new, standalone game that, although not being great, has an excellent value for money because of the lower price.
No way, I remember those days and they were awful because you have to not only negotiate the value of the games (which might not even be of equal value to yours), and that's if your friend even has the game in the first place, wants to trade it and also just happens to want your game at the same time you wish to trade yours. Have we even looked into how much money from pre-owned pours back into the gaming economy and funds future purchases of new games?
My main issue is that we seem to be approaching this with too much naivety like a medieval witch hunt.
Those typically cost 59p, hardly an argument at all, and the sales of steam say nothing about the people who wouldn't be happy with it (i.e.
And are we not forgetting how much riskier purchases of new IP and games would be without pre-owned?
There is the possibility of finding someone who does want it, but for anyone who has tried that in the past, it's really going to replace stores for preowned.
Why doesn't the industry use the same licencing model that almost all respectable software does? I always said that if the cost of a new game was less from the start, then more people would buy it brand new.
But the same goes for digital sales, if they're the same price as physical copies then chances are, you're gonna buy the physical one so you can trade it in. I think the Steam midweek and weekend sales are good examples of hw to increase the 'tail' as I recently impulse-bought Civ 5 and Anno 2070 purely because they were 70% off and I wasn't prepared to pay full price without knowinf if I would like them. Xbox Live sales also get it right sometimes, sometimes you get a decent arcade game half price and you know it's a limited time offer so you grab it, even if you won't play it just yet! I think the argument that used games are hurting the industry is naive and doesn't take into effect the true cause for damage. If lower costs of production ever successfully transferred to consumers perhaps the argument would hold some merit, but the reality is lower production costs equal higher profits for shareholder's, not lower costs for consumers, digital games generally higher prices reflect this. Maybe not the most reliable of sources, but those numbers make me think that used games are just a drop in a very big pool.
Frankly, I'd like to see some serious analysis of the impact of used games sales on the market place. There are plenty of studios making games that never see the inside of a boxed store yet enjoy bountiful revenue. I would tend to agree more with David Braben who claims that single player experiences are finding it hard to survive in a market with pre-owned. Let's be honest, the car industry isn't bothered about second-hand cars,the housing industry isn't bothered by used house sales, yet this industry, having first gone after piracy and producing onerous DRM on huge budget very average AAA games has now decided second-hand games is the enemy! Games like Two Worlds 1 and 2, all the Gothic's, all the STALKER's and Metro 2033, all from Europe, were brought to market for under ?15 million and made huge profits, selling multi-million units, in many cases PC only with no DRM.
If you don't want your game to be sold by user after finishing it, you have to make it enjoyable to play one time and another.
1) Getting rid of 2nd hand sales undercuts retail which in turn undercuts the industry as a whole, particularly the games which are not the AAA which are widely distributed in supermarkets.
3) If you are not happy with the returns you get on an investment, that signifies that somewhere along the line your have either spent too much developing a product to get the returns, there is no demmand for a product or you have priced yourself out the market. 4) At its most basic, customers will buy new when they think something is worth buying new. Secondly, there seems to be a considerable amount of arrogance in the industry as to who owns physical products. There is also the issue that new games are priced in a way that actively prevents impulse buys in most people.

I remember a time when I would buy a multiplayer game and have servers full of people ready to play a year or more after launch. On the flip side, I respect Valve for their products & especially Steam, I think they got it right.
Also most car dealers operate under a brand so who knows maybe they get money from second hand car sales? James if you had a NES or SNES and bought a Mario game you spend more money for that game than any new released game now while it cost a lot a lot a lot less than what games cost now to develop and it can be finished extremely fast. You want the games industry to follow and work the same way as other entertainment business?
By the way who is doing the technical part of the website because the commenting system seems to have a bug as I had to rewrite a sentence where I used CD in it before it go posted with the following error that`s in the sentence where I had to replace CD twice with disc. The comparison to cars as there is nothing else is the same to compare to with a similar (Im not talking about extras Im talking about principle), as films & music are not in the same league. I think if publsihers tried to be a bit more competitive with their pricing sometimes and stopped acting like buying a pre-owned game was a crime, it would encorage more people to their brand in the long run. I'll say this, my mom has leased and purchased cars from the same manufacturer for the past twenty years and she's had recalls and repairs installed for free. Frontier Development's David Braben recently lashed out against the used games business, saying that it's effectively killed off single-player titles, and now Silicon Knights boss Denis Dyack has weighed in with his thoughts as well. Because there are no used games, you could actually sell a game for a long time, and get recurring revenue for quite a while.
Literally, you will get most of your sales within three months of launch, which has created this really unhealthy extreme where you have to sell it really fast and then you have to do anything else to get money," he continued, alluding to steps developers take like including multiplayer or launching DLC. The company's argument is that the money from used games and trade-ins ultimately fuels the industry as a whole. Remember that GameStop generates $1.2 billion of trade credits around the world with our used games model.
We need a system with recurring revenue and that's why I think digital distribution is going to play a big role in things to come. There is simply no way at all that next gen will look so much better that it would have such an increase in production costs. Nintendo, Sony and MS all need game sales to make money and I have the feeling before the second hand get`s out of hand and close to destroying the industry they will have switched to digital only and got rid of the boxed retail market since they and the publishers and developers need the money from game sales. Of course if you go the Capcom style and charge 30 bucks for on disc characters yes thats bad. It's the only way for smart phones and tablets, it's become the dominant distribution for PC and is increasingly adopted on current consoles (XBLA and playstation).
The data cap on XBLA games, currently at 2gb, will increase by an order of magnitude, perhaps to 10 or 20gb. The developer-giants will continue to make huge profits on boxed games, and everyone else will be immune to used sales by releasing their games only digitally. If a high budget game isn't received well and gets poor sales, it's going to make a loss, with or without pre-owned sales.
Certainly they make games less profitable, given that more people would buy first hand games if the second hand market was not available. Whether this happens will likely depend largely on how 'open' the digital platforms of the next consoles are. I just don't think it's worth getting angry at a market that's not only temporary, but also that's increasingly open for any developer to avoid if they wish. If it's true, why are 90% of triple A titles that are available to download more expensive than the boxed game? Why would they charge that much if they can make a sale that cannot be traded in and carries no manufacturing and distribution cost? The catch is that value of the product will have decreased as it retains no value after purchase. And I say economists because the absence of preowned is a completely different economic model that would result in different purchase habits that I believe would exclude the games that sell less, since gamers will clearly purchase less games if they are priced the same. In other words the secondhand market is an effective mechanism to reduce the cost of console game purchase to nearer to what it should be. This distorts the market into a small number of blockbusters and acts as an economic mechanism against innovation. The total revenue pool is the same - but the retailers get a bigger chunk of it via 2nd-hand. He says used game sales have risen in the last few years, increasing the cost of games, but we could argue that when current gen launched the price of games was increased and that caused an increased demand for used (cheaper) games. If games were priced less, and that responsibility lies with publishers as well as retailers, there would be no need for used games. Putting a game on a disc is just a method of getting the 1s and 0s into the customer's machine, yet somehow people view it in a totally different mindset. I'm more inclined to think that an increase in used games sales is a result and not a cause of higher prices. And it limits what you can do, for example you can't trade your game to get money off of a new game. And if pre-owned is making retailers like GAME so much money, why are they so short of cash? If you received it as a gift you either return it immediately unopened with the receipt or you're stuck with it forever (unless you can find a sucker who wants it), and further more would you want to buy a surprise gift for someone who couldn't trade it in if they didn't want it.
Yes, there are issues, so we should solve the issues, not blindly replace the entire system. It doesn't make sense, but the companies and their company men making these arguments aren't considering sense; they're considering that someone who buys the game used, in their mind, would buy it new if they were forced to. Kind of like how piracy is responsible for billions in lost revenue while the music industry and film industry is experiencing record returns. If you look at Nintendo's software sales over the past 9 years, you will see that they worked hard to produce a range of evergreen games that sell well beyond the time of release. None of these games were bad and some were very good and continued to sell months after release. Does GM offer a free update to the new and used cars and keep working on the cars to make them better, employ people who keep making the cars better and the facilities neccessary to do this?
So you where ok with the fact that you bought a game that you could finish in under 10 minutes and payed more than for games now that are at least 7 hours or a lot more and offer a lot more value? Go ahead and do that, give 90% of your staff only a contract until submission day, don`t offer any post release support for the game, no servers and only hire people again once you start production of the next game so after you finished fully your game design and script and only give them a job for 12-16 month and then send them away again.
Some were a health hazard, others were just general feature that the car should have come with [last week the in-car roof light died, they repaired if for free, because it was a known problem]. Maybe the games industry needs to look at the auto industry [lessons learned], 'lest they become it.
For any shipping discounts it should automatically deduct the shipping discount when you go to check out.

So, consider taking used games out of that, you'd have to find new ways to sell the games, and our partners at the console companies have great relationships with us," CEO Paul Raines said during the company's last earnings call. This'll make it possible for developers without $100m+ budgets to continue making cutting edge games that would, on this generation, qualify for boxed products. Certainly a minority of games will almost but not quite break even, such that they would have turned a profit without used sales. But the hidden assumption is that if used sales stopped, developers and publishers would pass (some of) the savings made on to consumers by making games cheaper. If pre-owned helps GAME stay open so that they can sell new games, isn't that a good thing to let them use those means to stay open and stock products?
They're certainly not the same people who are returning their games (as you say), so they can't in any way be used to argue the acceptance of the people who do trade their games.
People might begin to buy only the most popular brands as presents, and the smaller studios could get the short straw. It would allow publishers control of pre-owned, encourage upgrading to the next game, support boxed retail and digital distribution and has been proven to work for some time. Big retail - in the US that's GameStop, on High Street it was GAME and the grocers - turned it into their entire business model. Yes, they may increase your revenue, but so does a whole new game (although with higher dev costs). Games like Mario Kart Wii and New Super Mario Bros don't tend to get easily traded and they continually sell for years (Mario Kart Wii was in the top 30 Japanese chart this week).
DLC requires more work and costs some more money but much less than developing a new game, as you mentioned yourself.
All this before the "Next-Gen" multiformat market came along and games started to be very similar in terms of shooters and RPG's, etc, and every game seemed to needed to be part 1, part 2, par 3 before the next IP was announced, meaning if you didn't fancy Dragon Age or Mass Effect, Bioware weren't you're company for a few years! It's all about how games sales are down because quality is down and development cost is up!
I can play age of empires II or worms every day and not get bored, I've finished Arkham asylum once and I have no reason to play it again.
If you do that you don`t have to care in 3-6 months if you still sell new copies or not because you don`t have to pay any costs anymore anyway, you don`t have servers, you don`t support the game anymore and you got rid of your staff.
If say A buy a game full price the publisher has made its profit on the product, so if it was to be sold again and brought by B, there place on a server would be replaced from A to B, hence the money to maintain the server is still from the profit of the original sale. All he seems to do lately is fight with Epic, make bad predictions, and produce terrible games.
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All items come from a smoke free home.Graco Sleep 2 Go pack and play with stand alone bassinet. Would Crysis 2 or BF3 have been significantly cheaper if the PC would only match the console graphics? You buy your game and if you like it you are not stuck with the basic game, you can continue to play it and expand on it and expand the experience. The larger IPs will still be released in boxed products and so still be susceptible to used sales. I don't know if this'll happen with the move to digital distribution or not, but I think if consumers are to be respected it certainly should, given that it further reduces costs by cutting out the middle-man and not requiring a retailer. He has sold far more of the game initially than he would have without part exchanges meeting part of the purchase price.
Most of the software on my home PC works like this and best of all, gaming consumer habits wouldn't need to change. Most of today's games have little or no replayability once you finish them (why must you finish them, at first), specially if you are not a big fan of some specific franchise. I said this before, but it seems like since the recession (around that time) everyone is crying about used sales & then plaguing games with DRM etc, the gaming industry is disgusting right now. So the games industry unlike cars, books and so on have costs after launch for patches, servers and DLC. Uncharted 2 is an amazing game and even if it would have no multiplayer it would be worth the normal retail price because it offers a great experience and great entertainment.
As for patches most of them are there because the game wasnt tested enough, hence why some games are riddled with bugs, & people like Sony & MS dont help by charging like ?40K per patch. The jump in development costs from last gen to this gen was simply because it went from SD to HD, you couldn`t use your engine, model poly count singnificantly improved, the texture quallity singnificantly improved and you needed more people and you had to learn and improve your skills to to adapt to the HD games.
You pay originaly 60 bucks you have something you enjoy to play for a month or 2 then DLC comes out and you pay 10 and get again a month or 2 of entertainment and so on or pay 50 for elite and get a lot of DLC spaced out over the year. But these, I stress, will be the gaming giants (Call of Duty, Fifa, GTA, Assassin's Creed etc) which are all but guaranteed to make a huge profit.
The fact that used sales harm profitability is no more an argument that they are cannibalising the industry than the fact that used car sales make car-manufacturing less profitable.
The other consequence of this need for a mad rush to get pre-orders is games now need an enormous marketing campaign to get themselves heard during their tiny sales window. They're only buying the game once, so they can just go elsewhere (Amazon etc), or wait till the price drops, but retail works as long as people are too lazy to shop around for a better price.
Well, Bioware had a whole range of different PC RPG's, and everyone of them were very original, so in the same 3-4 years, rather than 2 games, we saw around 6! You are charged 15 bucks for a movie ticket where the movie lasts 2 hours so whats the issue with charging 45 bucks for a game that lasts for 6 hours or more? Best example of this is COD, Are you telling me that multi-million selling game, that has bad balancing, horrible spawns, severe multi-player glitches should be sold as a full product though it is incomplete. We are too far away from 2k or 4k TV`s that are avordable or mass produced so I don`t think the next consoles will go for that resolution.
I'm not saying the cases are parallel or that I'm in support of used sales, but their significance should be kept in proportion. THAT is what hurt more than anything, and what bothers me the most is that in the pissing contest between publishers and what you all would call High Street, consumers are the ones getting wet. Next thing they will say is that you have be connected to online services all the time to play games (like on PC), & you cant play your game another console it is one console locked per game (so you cant even play it at a friends house), publishers might start charging to pay the multiplayer on top of the game (i dont even want to give them ideas) or heres one better a tax to play games.
If either of them isn`t good you won`t get people to keep playing your game or keep buying your DLC if the DLC is bad. Basically the level of cheap, disgusting thinking in the gaming industry is so bad, that if they could they would blame their own mothers for not buying their games for their kids. If your game is good and people enjoy playing it they will be happy and buy good DLC that brings more to the game and makes it possible for them to extend the time they can spend in the game. Rather than use everything to advantage they choose to punish loyal customers & make things more difficult for everyone.

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