US Captures Alleged Sept 11 Mastermind

The US claims to have captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, a man they claim is the mastermind of the September 11 attacks. Lateline talks to Tariq Ali, Guardian columnist with a special knowlege of Pakistan.

Tariq Ali interviewed by Tony Jones
Australian Broadcasting Corporation - Lateline

March 3, 2003
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/s797413.htm

TONY JONES: Al Qaeda's operational mastermind, Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, is in his third day of interrogation by American authorities.

And there are conflicting reports tonight as to whether he's been taken out of Pakistan, where he was arrested, US officials say their interrogation methods will be 'appropriate'.

Certainly they won't be handling with kid gloves the man thought to have masterminded a litany of astonishing terrorist attacks, including September 11.

Now to tonight's guest, Tariq Ali, the Pakistan-born author and 'Guardian' newspaper columnist, who joins us from London.

Tariq Ali, as I said, conflicting reports, but Pakistan's Interior Minister is saying tonight that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is still in Pakistan, in his third day of interrogation.

And I'm wondering are there rules which would govern that form of interrogation in Pakistan?

TARIQ ALI, AUTHOR (LONDON): Well, there are two reports that came out: first that he'd been spirited out of the country, and later reports saying that he was still in, but before we deal with where he is, as to who he is and how he was captured is still shrouded in mystery.

All the reports we've received are so far intelligence reports, and the timing of this is quite interesting.

Just as the US Government was coming under criticism for not doing anything about the actual terrorists and being too distracted by the war in Iraq, suddenly, hey presto, the intelligence in Pakistan supplies them with a prisoner they've been looking for.

But as to who he is and what his exact role is, we are dependent totally on intelligence sources, as all the newspapers indicated today in the Western world.

The point is that if he is being held in Pakistan, or whether he's being taken to Jordan, there's a function to be served here, because torture takes place, routine torture, in these countries in prisons, whereas the United States is still obliged not to torture people in the United States itself.

So it could well be that what they call this "robust interrogation", ie, probable use of torture in this case, is being done either in Pakistan or in Jordan.

TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, just going back to what you said earlier, though -- you're not suggesting they could possibly have got the wrong man, are you?

TARIQ ALI: Well, we do not know.

At the moment we have absolutely no evidence at all.

Reports from Pakistan are coming out from what are described as Taliban sources, ie members of the former government in Afghanistan who are now around in Pakistan, who are denying that he has been captured and saying, "We know exactly where the guy they're claiming to have captured is," and until he is produced before a court of law or interviewed or allowed access to the press or lawyers, we will not know who he is.

TONY JONES: We won't expect him to be offered access to lawyers, if past experience is anything to go by.

Let's assume for a moment, if we can, that it is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

What do we know about him?

He wasn't at all a religious aesthetic in the style of Osama bin Laden.

He was apparently a man who enjoyed the high life, even brothels.

What was his motivation, as you understand it?

TARIQ ALI: Well, I think quite a few of them are quite fond of fornication in brothels.

There's nothing in the religion to stop that, actually.

It's the drink which is prohibited.

Now, as to who he is, again, the only information we have, again, which the Western intelligence agencies are saying they have got or obtained from prisoners already captured, ie, Ramsey Yousef, who is in a prison, and Abu Zubaida, number three in the hierarchy, who was captured some time ago, again in a Pakistani city.

According to the intelligence networks, these people said that this guy was pretty central.

Now, a, we don't know what they said, b, we don't know whether they were telling the truth.

So one one should very cautious about taking anything coming out at the moment at face value.

He may be what they say he is, but certainly we've seen no evidence for it.

TONY JONES: All right.

Let's look at the facts that we do know.

He was captured, extraordinarily enough, in the city of Rawapindi, which is just down the road, if you like, from President Musharraf's own home.

TARIQ ALI: Not only is it around the corner from his own home.

This is also where the general headquarters of the Pakistan army are based.

This is also where the headquarters of military intelligence, the ISI, are based.

So it is quite incredible that if he is who they say he is, that he was literally living around the corner from these people.

There is no way in which the interservices intelligence who has worked with these people for a long time would not have known that, so whether they had him already under surveillance, and decided this was the time to ease some of the pressure on Musharraf on Iraq, because Musharraf has come out and said he is not in favour of a war on Iraq, and trying to show the Americans, "Look, we are not for the war on Iraq or we can't support it publicly, but here's a guy you've been looking for."

We don't know.

But the one good thing about Pakistan is this: nothing remains secret for too long, so within a few weeks we'll get the truth.

TONY JONES: All right.

It also appears that his hideaway was in the home of a member of Pakistan's leading Islamic party.

Now, that would indicate links, potentially, between Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and extremists within Pakistan.

TARIQ ALI: Well, these extremists, religious extremist parties are now in power in two provinces, in the north-west frontier province and Belochistan, both important, strategically important provinces bordering Pakistan, where these parties won a majority in the last election, and where in the north-west frontier province they're very pro-Taliban, the chief minister.

So you actually have a very strange situation, which I did predict after the war in Afghanistan, that the instability would cross the border and would begin to affect the functioning of the Pakistani state, which is now what we are watching.

There was a big attack on the US Consulate in Karachi a few days ago.

There have been two attempts on Musharraf's life over the last year and a half.

The two religious parties are now in power in two provinces, so the notion that Afghanistan and the problems there have been solved is far from true.

TONY JONES: Let's talk if we can about those attempts on Musharraf's life.

They were, as far as I knew, rumours.

Have they been confirmed at this stage?

TARIQ ALI: Well, they are never confirmed.

I mean, attacks on the lives of heads of state, especially uniformed heads of state, in Pakistan, tend to be kept a secret.

But my informants in Pakistan say that there's absolutely no doubt about it.

If you see the ease with which some of these people have penetrated high security areas in Islamabad, I mean, not so long ago, about a year ago, they penetrated the diplomatic district and blew up a church, killing various people, so it shows that they have contacts at the heart of military intelligence that they know exactly what's going on, when.

So one shouldn't be at all surprised by the information seeping out of the country that there have been attempts on his life, certainly his security now is at the highest level and his movements are kept very closely guarded.

TONY JONES: Our own Prime Minister today spoke of Musharraf's extraordinary bravery to have continued, if you like, with his fight on terrorism, to continue arresting leading Al Qaeda figures in Pakistan, that there are tremendous risks for him in doing that.

I mean, could there be further attempts on his life, despite the security that you're talking about, and how dangerous would that be?

TARIQ ALI: Well, I think he's living on the edge really, and he knows it, because it's not simply that these organisations exist in Pakistan.

It's the fact that in the past they've been armed, funded and trained by sections of the military itself, military intelligence.

So they know exactly where they are.

Most of them are not in prison, incidentally.

By and large, most of them not connected to Al Qaeda directly, have been released.

And the election of the Islamist parties in these two provinces really worried the regime and they tried to make some concessions to them.

I think Musharraf is in a very difficult situation.

Precisely because of what the United States are doing.

One of the largest military bases in Pakistan, in Gwadar, is totally occupied by US troops and personnel and Pakistanis are not allowed near it.

The United States agents wander over the country at will, and this is not popular with the bulk of the population, and I think Musharraf is aware of that.

At the same time, he knows that if he doesn't play ball with the United States, they could transfer their attentions to India, which would be a disaster for him and the state.

TONY JONES: It must, though, be one of the greatest fears of Western governments that Pakistan could fall to another coup, that Musharraf could indeed be assassinated by people high up, for example, in his own intelligence services, that Islamist officers could take charge?

TARIQ ALI: Well, this has been talked about for some time, and the truth is that no-one knows the exact degree of penetration inside the army by Islamist officers. Certainly, at the lower levels, there's complete ignorance and even if you talk to high-up people inside the army and ask them this question, they say, "We don't know".

They were completely shaken, certainly Musharraf was, when he realised the extent, though he shouldn't have been too surprised, the extent of links between the intelligence, military intelligence, and the Taliban and some of the Al Qaeda people.

After all, they had been fighting together against the Russians, with the United States, on their side during the Cold War, so it shouldn't have been a surprise.

But that's where it all goes goes back to, the war against the Russians in Afghanistan and the pro-Russian regime.

All these groups spring from that time.

TONY JONES: Let's, if we can, look more closely at the worst case scenario, that is, that Musharraf does get assassinated at some point.

That would immediately make, if Islamist officers, for example, took over, Pakistan a potential enemy and they would have nuclear weapons at their beck and call?

TARIQ ALI: Well, this is true, but you've got to understand that even the leaders of the current Islamist parties, I mean, my information is that after they won the votes, the highest votes they've ever had in Pakistan, Maulana Fazlur Rahman went to see Musharraf and said to him that I should be allowed to try to form a government at the centre and become prime minister, and Musharraf is reported to have said to him, "But you're anti-Americanism is far too pronounced", and at first Rahman reportedly laughed and said "We worked with the Americans before, we can work with them again."

So there are Islamists and Islamists.

Some of them would be quite happy to work with the United States if the money kept coming in.

Others, who now belong to more hard-core factions, would find it impossible to do so.

So it's a very confused and mixed situation in that country.

Obviously if hard-core Islamist officers captured the Pakistan army, we're in for some trouble.

TONY JONES: All right.

Let's look a little closer now at Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

I know that you're dubious as to who it is they've captured.

Let's assume for a moment it is him.

That would be the greatest breakthrough so far in the so-called war on terrorism, would it not?

TARIQ ALI: Well, I'm not sure about that because I have always in everything I've read from this organisation and reports from journalists who've met them over the last three or four years, the impression one gets is that the key figure in the organisation, I mean, Osama is the figurehead, but that the key figure in terms of strategic thinking, intelligence, planning operations, is Ayman Al-Zawahari, the Egyptian from Islamic Jihad.

Now we're told this guy is the military planner, but we don't know.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that he is.

The key question I have been saying endless since 2001 is the following: how do you stop the flow of recruits to these organisations?

That's the key.

They can be picked up individually as is happening, not through war but through clever police actions.

But how do you stop the flow of recruits and the one way you don't stop the flow of recruits to these organisations is by waging war on Iraq and turning a blind eye to Sharon's atrocities in Palestine.

The situation is really ready for a big explosion of these organisations and possibly the birth of new organisations if the United States occupies Iraq and Baghdad the historical capital of Islamic civilisations is occupied by western troops.

TONY JONES: You have to admit that in spite of the fact that Zawahiri, you can still hear me, I hope, in spite of the fact he is still on the loose and Osama bin Laden is still on the loose, this man may in fact be able to give some information as to where they are.

TARIQ ALI: Well, he may, but I mean, presumably they must know what the results of torture can be.

After all, it's impossible to say what happens under torture as the resistance in the Second World War realised, so the minute a key operative is captured, if these people have any sense, they'll have disappeared so that no-one knows their new whereabouts.

TONY JONES: One of the most interesting facts to have emerged about this man, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, is he was the uncle of Ramsey Yousef, the man who planned the first attack on the World Trade Centre in 1993.

Now, there are suggestions in the United States that Ramsey Yousef was an Iraqi agent that was given inquiry dance by the former CIA chief, George tenet.

Do you believe the Americans will try to draw a link here?

TARIQ ALI: Well, they have been trying ever since they decided to take Iraq, but they have failed.

British intelligence was put on the job, came up with nothing.

The CIA and the American intelligence agencies have been working overtime on this and haven't really come up with anything convincing, which is not surprising, because whatever else the Bath Party in Iraq is fiercely secular and both the Bath parties in Iraq and Syria have been utterly ruthless in crushing Islamist opponents and this is very well-known, which is why there's been sort of let's say a more lukewarm response from the Islamists to the war on Iraq than by other forces.

TONY JONES: Tariq Ali, thank you very much for joining us again tonight.

We'll have to leave it there, though.

Thank you.

TARIQ ALI: Thank you very much.

© 2003 Lateline. Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

FAIR USE NOTICE: This site contains copyrighted material the use of which has not always been specifically authorized by the copyright owner. We are making such material available in our efforts to advance understanding of criminal justice, political, human rights, economic, democracy, scientific, and social justice issues, etc. We believe this constitutes a 'fair use' of any such copyrighted material as provided for in section 107 of the US Copyright Law. In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml. If you wish to use copyrighted material from this site for purposes of your own that go beyond 'fair use', you must obtain permission from the copyright owner.