USA v. Usama bin Laden et al Trial in the Southern District of New York

USA v. Usama bin Laden et al Trial in the Southern District of New York - Day 8

February 21, 2001
[excerpt]

Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 8 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

1071

1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,

6 Defendants.

7 ------------------------------x

8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 21, 2001
9:45 a.m.
10

12 Before:

13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,

14 District Judge

1072

1 APPEARANCES

2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys

6
ANTHONY L. RICCO
7 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
8 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh

9 FREDRICK H. COHN
DAVID P. BAUGH
10 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali

11 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
12 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

13
SAM A. SCHMIDT
14 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
15 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage

1075

1 (Trial resumed)

2 (Pages 1073-1074 filed under seal)

3 (Recess)

4 (In open court; jury not present)

5 THE COURT: I have reviewed the redactions in the

6 3500 material for Agent Coleman and have found the redactions

7 to be appropriate. I had one or two questions which I have

8 discussed with Mr. Karas and I am satisfied that the

9 redactions are appropriate.

10 Anything else before the jury is brought in? Bring

11 in the jury.

12 This is the only case in the history of this

13 courthouse that starts earlier than scheduled. The next

14 witness may take the stand.

15 MR. KARAS: Judge, first we are going to do CNN.

16 THE COURT: You don't need a witness for that?

17 MR. KARAS: No.

18 MR. COHN: Does your Honor know anything further

19 about the juror's funeral plans?

20 THE COURT: No, he was going to let the marshal know,

21 and I have been advised all sorts of things, but not of that.

22 It gets shown on this?

23 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes.

24 THE COURT: Mr. Wilford, I was just wondering about

25 Thursday a week, whether there is any possibility for it to be

1076

1 scheduled so that someone else could be covering and the trial

2 could go forward even in your absence.

3 MR. WILFORD: I think that would be possible -- yes.

4 THE COURT: There are so many reasons to adjourn. I

5 regret, for example, because Norman Ostrow was a friend and

6 worked with me on the Committee on Jury Studies which I made

7 reference to. I really want to have a very restricted view on

8 when we adjourn. A juror is scheduling his mother's funeral

9 so as not to interfere with the trial.

10 (Jury present)

11 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

12 JURORS: Good morning.

13 THE COURT: I have been presented with a stipulation.

14 You recall a stipulation is an agreement among counsel, and

15 the stipulation which is Government's Exhibit 33, reads:

16 It is hereby stipulated and agreed by and between the

17 United States of America and all counsel:

18 1. Government's Exhibit 80 is an authentic copy of a

19 videotape of an interview conducted by representatives from

20 CNN with Usama Bin Laden in Afghanistan on March 20, 1997.

21 Portions of the interview aired on CNN on May 10, 1997 and a

22 transcript of the entire interview later appeared on the CNN

23 Web site.

24 2. Exhibit 80-T is a fair and accurate translation

25 of the interview that is depicted on Government's Exhibit 80.

1077

1 It is signed by all counsel in the case.

2 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we would offer

3 both the stipulation and Government's Exhibits 80 and 80-T,

4 and propose that we play the video.

5 THE COURT: So Exhibit 33, the stipulation, and

6 Exhibit 80 and 80T are received in evidence.

7 (Government's Exhibits 33, 80 and 80T received in

8 evidence)

9 THE COURT: You may play the tape.

10 MR. KARAS: Thank you, your Honor.

11 (Videotape played)

12 THE COURT: All right, that concludes the playing of

13 that exhibit. The government may call its next witness.

14 MR. KARAS: Yes, Judge. The government calls Special

15 Agent Daniel Coleman.

16 (Continued on next page)

1078

1 DANIEL COLEMAN,

2 called as a witness by the government,

3 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:

4 DIRECT EXAMINATION

5 BY MR. KARAS:

6 Q Good morning.

7 A Good morning.

8 Q Can you tell us how you are employed.

9 A I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of

10 Investigation.

11 Q Is that here in New York City?

12 A Yes, it is.

13 Q Were you a special agent with the FBI on August 21, 1997?

14 A Yes, I was.

15 Q Can you tell the jury where you were on August 21, 1997.

16 A Nairobi, Kenya.

17 Q What reason were you in Nairobi, Kenya?

18 A I was there to assist and participate in the search of a

19 house office in Nairobi.

20 Q What was the specific address of that location?

21 A 1523 Fedha Estates, Nairobi, Kenya.

22 (Continued on next page)

1079

1 Q And what was your understanding of who was using that

2 location?

3 A It was used by --

4 MR. DRATEL: Objection, your Honor, to the form of

5 the question.

6 THE COURT: Excuse me?

7 MR. DRATEL: Objection to the form of the question,

8 using the premises.

9 THE COURT: Restate it.

10 Q What was your understanding of who was either working out

11 of that location or living at that location?

12 A Wadih El Hage, among others.

13 Q Who else was participating in the search?

14 A Kenyan government officials.

15 Q And did the search take place on that day?

16 A Yes, it did.

17 Q What time of day did the search begin?

18 A Approximately 4:30 in the afternoon.

19 Q And when you and Kenya officials went to that location

20 were there people inside?

21 A Yes, there were.

22 Q Can you describe the first room of the location at 1523

23 Feda Estates?

24 A The main door to the house is located towards the center

25 of the house on the porch. As you walk into the house and you

1080

1 enter a room that is apparently being used as an office.

2 There is two desks within the room. There is a desk directly

3 beyond the door, which is facing sideways, facing out, and

4 there is a desk to the back facing directly towards the door

5 towards the back entrance. The desk is located towards the

6 back entrance of the room.

7 Q Were there any telephones in that room?

8 A Yes, there were.

9 Q Where were they?

10 A The telephone was located on the rear desk in the back of

11 the room.

12 Q Now, Agent Coleman, were any items seized from that first

13 room that you just described?

14 A Yes. A laptop computer, an Apple laptop computer, some

15 manuals that go along with the computer, some address books,

16 some notebooks, date planner --

17 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, may I approach the witness?

18 THE COURT: Yes.

19 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what has been marked

20 for identification as Government Exhibit 300 and ask you to

21 take a look at that.

22 A Yes.

23 Q Can you tell us what that is?

24 A It's a McIntosh Power Book 140.

25 Q And is that the computer that was taken from that first

1081

1 room at the location of the search?

2 A Yes, it is.

3 Q Is it in substantially the same condition as when you

4 first saw?

5 A Yes, it is.

6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibit

7 300.

8 THE COURT: Received.

9 (Government's Exhibit 300 received in evidence)

10 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness, your Honor?

11 THE COURT: Yes.

12 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked

13 for identification as Government Exhibit 304, 305, 306, 307,

14 and 309.

15 A Yes.

16 Q Will you start with 304 and tell us what that is?

17 A It's a metal, it's called a phone index. It pops up based

18 upon the letter that you go to.

19 Q Is that one of the items that was taken from that first

20 room?

21 A Yes, it is.

22 Q Is it in substantially the same condition as when you

23 first saw it?

24 A Yes, it is.

25 Q With respect to Government Exhibit 305, can you tell us

1082

1 what that is?

2 A This is a black planner diary, like a date planner.

3 Q And is that also one of the items that was taken from the

4 first room?

5 A Yes, it is.

6 Q Is it in substantially the same condition?

7 A Yes, it is.

8 Q Now, would you tell us what exhibit 306 is, please?

9 A 306 is a holder for business cards.

10 Q What color is it?

11 A Black.

12 Q And Government Exhibit 307?

13 A It's a similar item except it's labeled name card holder

14 and it's blue.

15 Q And 308?

16 A Again, it's a similar item but there one is tan in color

17 green on the inside called a business card file and it

18 contains business cards.

19 Q Do the two previous exhibits contain business cards as

20 well?

21 A Yes, they do.

22 Q Finally, can you tell us what Government Exhibit 309 is?

23 A 309 is a item called a Jambo Diary from 1997 and it's a

24 daily planner.

25 Q Were all of those items seized in that first room at Feda

1083

1 Estates?

2 A Yes, they were.

3 Q Are they in substantially the same condition as when you

4 first saw them?

5 A Yes, they are.

6 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, we offer Government Exhibits

7 304 through 309.

8 THE COURT: Yes, received.

9 (Government's Exhibits 304 through 309 received in

10 evidence)

11 Q Agent Coleman --

12 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, 304 through 309, but there

13 was no mention of 308. 308 is not admitted.

14 MR. KARAS: I apologize, that's correct.

15 THE COURT: So it's 304, 5, 6, 7 and 9 are received.

16 MR. KARAS: Yes.

17 Q Agent Coleman, was there any other computer equipment that

18 was seized during this search?

19 A Yes, there was.

20 Q Can you tell us where that equipment was found?

21 A There is a bedroom in the house located directly adjacent

22 to the front room. The other items were located on the top

23 shelf of a closet within the bedroom directly next to the door

24 into the bedroom.

25 Q Will you tell us what these items were?

1084

1 A There was assorted equipment that goes along with a

2 computer. It includes power cords, two printers, assorted

3 diskettes, the small size three and a half inch, and a mouse,

4 a computer mouse.

5 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness?

6 THE COURT: Yes.

7 Q Agent Coleman, I placed before you what have been marked

8 for identification as Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and

9 we'll start with those for a minute. Can you tell us what 301

10 is?

11 A 301 is a power card for a McIntosh Power Book.

12 Q Can you tell us what 302 is?

13 A 302 is a Canon bubble jet printer, BJ10SX.

14 Q And 303?

15 A Is a Kodak Diconix 180SI printer.

16 Q And I've also placed before you in the Redwell what have

17 been marked for identification as Government Exhibits 310-1

18 through 310-67.

19 THE COURT: 67?

20 MR. KARAS: 310-1 through 310-67. Can you tell us

21 what those are?

22 A Yes, I can. These are computer diskettes that were taken

23 from the home in Nairobi.

24 Q And with respect to the exhibits you've just described,

25 are they in substantially the same condition as when they were

1085

1 first found?

2 A Yes, they are.

3 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we would offer

4 Government Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1 through 310-67.

5 THE COURT: Received.

6 (Government's Exhibits 301, 302, 303, and 310-1

7 through 310-67 received in evidence)

8 Q Now, Agent Coleman, were there any other objects seized

9 during this search?

10 A Yes. There were audio cassettes.

11 Q Where were those found?

12 A They're in a building directly behind the main building

13 which contained a small apartment and a garage. The cassettes

14 were found in the apartment.

15 Q Can you tell us how long the search lasted?

16 A Approximately an hour.

17 Q And after the search was completed where did you and the

18 Kenya officials go?

19 A We went to the police station at the Kenyata International

20 Airport in Nairobi.

21 Q What did you do after you got to the Kenyata International

22 Airport?

23 A I gave the computer to a computer technician for an

24 examination and I began to make copies of the paper documents

25 that I had obtained.

1086

1 Q What do you do with the disks?

2 A I also gave the disks to the computer technician.

3 MR. KARAS: May I approach the witness?

4 THE COURT: Yes.

5 Q Now, Agent Coleman, while you were photocopying the paper

6 documents that were seized from Feda Estates, did anybody hand

7 you any other documents to photocopy?

8 A Another agent gave me a stack of documents.

9 Q And did you make a photocopy of those documents?

10 A Yes, I did.

11 Q I placed before you what has been marked for

12 identification as Government Exhibits 314 and ask you to take

13 a look at that.

14 A Yes.

15 Q Can you tell us what that is?

16 A This is the passport, the American passport of Mr. El

17 Hage.

18 Q Is it a photocopy of it?

19 A Yes, it is.

20 Q Did you make the photocopy of the photocopy of the

21 passport?

22 A I made a copy of a copy. I did not copy the original.

23 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, at this time we offer

24 Government Exhibit 314.

25 THE COURT: Received.

1087

1 (Government's Exhibit 314 received in evidence)

2 Q Will you turn to Government Exhibit 315 and tell us what

3 that is?

4 A It's a copy of a plane ticket for Mr. El Hage.

5 Q And 316?

6 A 316 is a receipt from a hotel in Karachi, again for Mr. El

7 Hage.

8 Q And 317?

9 A Is a copy of a small ring binder notebook.

10 Q Did you make all those copies?

11 A Again, I made copies of copies. I did not copy the

12 originals.

13 MR. KARAS: At this time, your Honor, we offer

14 Government Exhibits 315, 316, and 317.

15 THE COURT: Received.

16 (Government's Exhibits 315, 316 and 317 received in

17 evidence)

18 Q With respect to the computer technician, did you see what

19 he did with the laptop computer marked as 300?

20 A Yes, I did.

21 Q What did he do?

22 A He worked on it with his equipment, and produced a, what

23 he called a mirror image of the computer for me.

24 Q And what, if anything, did you see him do with the disks?

25 A He copied several of the disks on to new diskettes and

1088

1 gave me those copies.

2 Q Now, I placed before you what have been marked for

3 identification as Government Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74.

4 I ask you to take look at them.

5 A Yes.

6 Q What are they?

7 A These are the computer diskettes he gave me on that day.

8 Q Do your initials appear on them?

9 A Yes, they did.

10 Q Your Honor, at this time we offer Government Exhibits

11 310-68 through 310-74.

12 THE COURT: Received.

13 (Government's Exhibits 310-68 through 310-74 received

14 in evidence)

15 MR. KARAS: No further questions.

16 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, perhaps if we could have a

17 break.

18 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-morning break.

19 (Continued on next page)

1089

1 (Jury not present)

2 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, I would like to note the

3 issue of the Kenyan warrant with this witness for the purpose

4 of credibility and for the purpose of potential argument that

5 we may make that we don't cross-examine the witness on

6 something that we believe we should be permitted to cross him

7 on, and it goes to as we argued yesterday. It goes to

8 credibility, because this witness saw the Kenyan warrant

9 before the execution of the search, and it said for stolen

10 property and we believe that there is no basis for that and

11 this witness knew that, yet was content to let the Kenyan

12 agents lie to the Kenyan court. It has nothing to do with the

13 legality of the search. It goes to the credibility and

14 disposition as to his willingness to let the Kenyan police lie

15 to the Kenyan court.

16 MR. KARAS: Judge, there is no testimony, nor is

17 there any reason to believe there will be testimony about what

18 Agent Coleman could say the Kenyan officials told the Kenyan

19 magistrate. The fact that he was shown the warrant says

20 nothing by itself as to what it was that was said to any

21 Magistrate.

22 In fact, the 3500 material that's presented, 3504-7

23 at the second paragraph, Agent Coleman swore an affidavit that

24 he believed then and he believes now that the Kenyan officials

25 went to court in Kenyan and obtained the warrant from the

1090

1 Kenyan judge. That's all he says. He doesn't say what they

2 represented to the Judge, and he doesn't say that he has any

3 reason to believe either that they misrepresented facts to the

4 Kenyan judge or that the Kenyan warrant was invalid, not to

5 mention the fact that the validity or the legality of the

6 Kenyan presence at the search is irrelevant to the

7 authentication of the exhibits that he just presented or his

8 credibility in testifying that these exhibits are basically

9 the ones that were seized that day in the house.

10 MR. DRATEL: Judge, I was shown a copy of the warrant

11 which I assume that the Kenyan officials had obtained. In

12 addition, your Honor, what came out is that during the

13 suppression motion was that in order to get the Kenyan

14 officials to participate there had to be a Kenyan warrant.

15 We believe that this agent knew of that in advance.

16 If he didn't know in advance he just says no, but the point is

17 did he know about it in advance, and we should be permitted to

18 argue at the appropriate time that people who performed this

19 investigation and conducted it were willing to lie to get

20 evidence including --

21 THE COURT: The key phrase in what you've just said

22 is, at the appropriate time, and the appropriate time would be

23 some occasion when those issues would be relevant, the

24 credibility of this witness might be relevant but all of this

25 has nothing to do with the authentication of these documents.

1091

1 If at some point you wish to call this witness as a defense

2 witness, because you believe that the matters to which you

3 referred to are relevant to some issue on the defense, I will

4 entertain an application at that time, but as I stated

5 yesterday, I don't see any nexus between the validity of the

6 Kenyan warrant or the circumstances surrounding the obtaining

7 of the Kenyan warrant and the testimony of this witness.

8 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he testified not only about

9 the authentication. He testified about the search, about the

10 premise. He also said the Kenyan officials were there. The

11 government should not be permitted to limit the scope just by

12 not asking the question. They put that in play by putting

13 that on the record. There is a distorted context not going to

14 that.

15 THE COURT: As I said, you will have an opportunity

16 at some appropriate time to recall this witness, and if any of

17 these matters are relevant to the defendant's case I'll

18 entertain them, but all that has happened is that this witness

19 has authenticated these documents.

20 MR. BAUGH: Your Honor, if I might, then I would move

21 to strike the answer and the question: Who used that

22 apartment? Because that's not authentication. And I was

23 under the impression counsel was going to handle that on

24 credibility issue in this conspiracy case. That witness was

25 asked who used that apartment, who he said Wadih El Hage among

1092

1 others, and that is not authentication. I move to strike that

2 then based on the ruling here.

3 MR. KARAS: That's fine, Judge.

4 THE COURT: You have no objection to that?

5 MR. KARAS: I don't have a problem with that.

6 THE COURT: Granted without objection. I'll so

7 instruct the jury when they return. We'll take a five-minute

8 recess.

9 (Recess)

10 (In open court; jury not present)

11 THE COURT: All right. When the jury returns I will

12 instruct the jury that on motion by the defendants and with

13 the consent of the government there is stricken from the

14 testimony of the witness the question of whose premises did he

15 understand were the subject of the search and his response, El

16 Hage and others.

17 Is that acceptable? Mr. Dratel, you plan to

18 cross-examine this witness?

19 MR. DRATEL: Yes.

20 THE COURT: May I inquire as to the scope of your

21 cross-examination?

22 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor. I intend to ask him

23 about some of the factors respecting the execution of the

24 warrant, who was there, who was giving direction to whom in

25 terms of the --

1093

1 THE COURT: You know I have great difficulty with

2 that. The documents were offered in evidence. There was no

3 objection. I paused, waited. There was no objection. They

4 have been received. Now you are going to cross-examine him as

5 to what?

6 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, he said certain people were

7 there. I would like to identify certain of those people who

8 were there in the house. That's number one.

9 Number two is that also with respect to the passport

10 issue, I think in terms of how that was received, and the

11 context in which that was received I think is also something

12 in terms of that they knew Mr. El Hage would not be there.

13 They knew where he was and they went to meet him if the

14 airport and while this agent did not specifically get the

15 passport from Mr. El Hage, he knew exactly why the passport

16 was taken from Mr. El Hage and where it went.

17 THE COURT: Is there an issue as to the authenticity

18 of the documents?

19 MR. DRATEL: No, your Honor, but the point is, we

20 would like the chain of custody in terms of how the document

21 was obtained, is something that this witness testified to.

22 THE COURT: There is no question as to the

23 authenticity but there is an issue as to the chain of custody?

24 MR. DRATEL: What I'm saying, your Honor, is we just

25 want to establish how the passport was obtained. We dispensed

1094

1 with another witness in order to have this witness short cut

2 this particular process.

3 THE COURT: Is that the case?

4 MR. KARAS: Judge, I think I can talk to Mr. Dratel.

5 We may stipulate as to how the passport was obtained.

6 THE COURT: Why don't you attempt to do that.

7 (Pause)

8 MR. FITZGERALD: Judge, to save time there are some

9 in limine matters regarding the next witness that do not need

10 to be addressed. I think we can start the witness and we can

11 address the in limine matter at the next break so we don't

12 delay the jury.

13 (Pause)

14 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, we have a stipulation with

15 respect to some of the aspects. Some of the other aspects

16 which I spoke to Mr. Karas about the government will not

17 object to. There is one area that I would cross him on that

18 the government does object to, so we might as well deal with

19 that now.

20 THE COURT: What is that?

21 MR. DRATEL: With respect to Mr. El Hage was given a

22 receipt by one of the Kenyan officers for the property. Agent

23 Coleman saw that occur. He acknowledged that. Following that

24 Mr. El Hage contacted the government, US government to try to

25 get those documents back because they were his address books

1095

1 his business cards, everything he had, and he wanted to do

2 that before leaving Kenya and returning to the United States.

3 He was led to believe by the government that in fact

4 the Kenyans perhaps had it, and the US was working with the

5 Kenyans to tr to get that back to Mr. El Hage, and that during

6 the period of time Mr. El Hage was in contact with the

7 government giving them his travel plans which were accurate,

8 and they met him at the airport in New York, and copied

9 further documents and then returned them.

10 THE COURT: There is obviously a conflict between

11 striking who occupied the premises and that line of

12 cross-examination, assuming this witness is knowledgeable.

13 MR. DRATEL: If he doesn't know, he doesn't know,

14 your Honor.

15 THE COURT: All right.

16 MR. KARAS: Judge, the only issue I have with

17 Mr. Dratel is getting what happened at JFK Airport upon Mr. El

18 Hage's arrival there. I think that goes beyond the scope of

19 what this witness testified to.

20 THE COURT: Bring in the jury and the witness.

21 (Continued on next page)

1096

1 (Jury present; witness resumed)

2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, from time to time I

3 may order that a certain question or certain answer be

4 stricken. In that case you are to understand that to be

5 disregarded as if the words were never spoken.

6 On motion of the defendants and with the consent of

7 the government there is stricken from evidence the question

8 asked of this witness as to who he understood to be the

9 occupant of the premises that were searched and the witness'

10 response to that question.

11 Cross-examination on behalf of defendant El Hage.

12 MR. KARAS: Your Honor, one quick item. We have an

13 agreement by the parties that Government Exhibit 308 was

14 mistakenly not included among the exhibits to be offered into

15 evidence. This was an exhibit Mr. Coleman testified about.

16 THE COURT: You are now offering it and it is

17 stipulated it may be received.

18 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor.

19 THE COURT: Very well, 308 received.

20 (Government's Exhibit 308 received in evidence)

21 MR. DRATEL: Thank you cross.

22 CROSS-EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. DRATEL:

24 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Coleman.

25 A Good afternoon.

1097

1 Q You testified that the search of 1523 Feda Estates

2 occurred August 21, 1997?

3 A Yes.

4 Q And the Nairobi bombing occurred August, 1998, is that

5 correct?

6 A Yes.

7 Q So the search that you performed was a full year before

8 the Nairobi bombing, correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And you also said other persons were on the premises at

11 the time that you searched, correct?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Mrs. El Hage, Mr. El Hage's wife was there, correct?

14 A Yes, she was.

15 Q And Mr. El Hage's six children were present as well,

16 correct?

17 A Yes, they were.

18 Q And Mr. El Hage's mother-in-law was there as well,

19 correct?

20 A Yes, she was.

21 Q You had the Kenyan police with you?

22 A Yes, I did.

23 Q And, in fact, though there was a United States law

24 enforcement search, correct? Withdrawn.

25 The search was at the behest of the United States

1098

1 correct?

2 MR. KARAS: Objection.

3 THE COURT: Sustained.

4 Q You provided direction to the Kenyan agents during the

5 search?

6 MR. KARAS: Objection.

7 THE COURT: No. I'll allow that.

8 A Yes, I did.

9 Q You, after the search -- withdrawn. You left something of

10 your own at the premises during the search, correct?

11 A Yes, I did.

12 Q Did you leave the notebook?

13 A Yes, I did.

14 Q And the following day you met with Mr. El Hage and he

15 returned the notebook to you?

16 A Yes, he did.

17 Q And that meeting was at the Grand Regency Hotel in

18 Nairobi?

19 A Yes, it was.

20 Q Now, with respect to the documents and the items that you

21 seized that have been put in evidence during your direct

22 testimony, you testified that the computer was in

23 substantially the same condition as when you had seized it,

24 correct?

25 A Yes.

1099

1 Q You mean externally, correct?

2 A I have no ability to judge its internal capacity.

3 Q So that would be you don't have anything whether it is

4 substantially the same internally?

5 A I have no way to determine that.

6 Q With respect to the business cards, the business card book

7 you put leads out or traces out on the information in those

8 business cards?

9 A Yes, we did.

10 Q Also with respect to the documents and the items that you

11 testified about on direct, you took the originals and you sent

12 them to the United States?

13 A I didn't send them to the United States. I left, they

14 were still in Kenya when I left.

15 Q But they were sent to the United States?

16 A Yes, they were.

17 Q And you received, and you had access to them back in the

18 United States when you returned?

19 A Yes, I did.

20 Q For purposes of your investigation?

21 A Yes.

22 Q That included the original computer itself, correct?

23 A Yes, it did.

24 Q All that the computer technician did was make a mirror of

25 the hard drive, correct?

1100

1 A Yes.

2 Q He did not keep any of the actual computer disks? Those

3 were sent back?

4 A Those were sent back.

5 Q During the search, at the conclusion of the search you

6 witnessed one of the Kenyan officers providing Mr. El Hage's

7 wife with an inventory of the documents of the items that were

8 taken, correct?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And when you spoke to Mr. El Hage the next day he wanted

11 those back, business cards, address books, things of that

12 nature?

13 MR. KARAS: Objection.

14 THE COURT: I'll allow it.

15 A Yes, he did.

16 Q And he was told in fact that the US government was working

17 with the Kenyans to try to get that back, correct?

18 MR. KARAS: Objection, your Honor, as to was told.

19 MR. DRATEL: I'll rephrase it, your Honor.

20 Q Did either you or someone else a colleague of yours in the

21 United States government inform Mr. El Hage that the US

22 government was working with the Kenyan police to try to get

23 those items back to him as quickly as possible?

24 A I didn't tell him that. One of my colleagues might have.

25 Q You don't know one way or the other?

1101

1 A I'm not sure.

2 Q And were you aware that Mr. El Hage and your colleagues

3 were discussing Mr. El Hage's travel plans back to the United

4 States at that time?

5 MR. KARAS: Objection.

6 THE COURT: Sustained.

7 Q It's true, is it not, that the Kenyans never had

8 possession of any of the items that were seized, that the

9 United States, that is, you and your colleague had possession

10 of the items you put in evidence that were seized at the

11 residence?

12 A No.

13 MR. KARAS: Objection as to form, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: You may answer.

15 A No, that's not true. The Kenyans did have possession.

16 Q Well, they took possession, the Kenyans actually seized it

17 in the premises?

18 A Yes.

19 Q And then they took it back to a Kenyan police station,

20 correct?

21 A Yes.

22 Q Did the Kenyans perform any analysis of the materials?

23 A No, they did not.

24 Q They turned them other over directly to you, correct?

25 A They did, and when I left they remained at the Kenyan

1102

1 police station.

2 Q Did you make any copies for the Kenyans?

3 A I didn't.

4 Q Do you know of anyone who did?

5 A I'm not sure.

6 Q With respect to --

7 Yes, your Honor, if may have a moment?

8 THE COURT: Yes.

9 (Pause)

10 Q So you don't know that any copies were made for the

11 Kenyans?

12 A No, I don't.

13 MR. DRATEL: I have nothing further, your Honor.

14 THE COURT: Any further inquiry?

15 MR. KARAS: No, your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Thank you. You may step down.

17 (Witness excused)

18 The government may call the next witness.

19 MR. DRATEL: Your Honor, if I may just have one

20 stipulation that I'll announce between the government and the

21 defense, that the three items, three additional items that

22 were not seized at the premises, the passport, plane tickets,

23 the address book and the hotel receipt that were seized from

24 Mr. El Hage were seized from Mr. El Hage at Kenyata

25 International Airport in Nairobi the evening of August 21,

1103

1 1997 and were returned to him. They were copied by the

2 government and returned to him.

3 THE COURT: Tell me again what three items are?

4 MR. DRATEL: The four items, your Honor. Mr. El

5 Hage's United States passport, plane ticket and address book,

6 and the hotel receipt. I believe they are, 313, 314, 315,

7 316, 317.

8 MR. KARAS: Correct.

9 THE COURT: It is stipulated that they were taken

10 from Mr. El Hage at the Kenyata airport, photographed and

11 returned to him. Is that the stipulation?

12 MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor, that same day, August

13 21, 1997.

14 THE COURT: August 21, 1997.

15 MR. DRATEL: They have been admitted already.

16 THE COURT: They were already admitted. Very well.

17 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, the government would now

18 call L'Houssaine Kherchtou, and the witness will affirm.

19 L'HOUSSAINE KHERCHTOU,

20 called as a witness by the government,

21 having been duly affirmed, testified as follows:

22 THE DEPUTY CLERK:

23 DIRECT EXAMINATION

24 BY MR. FITZGERALD:

25 Q Your full name, sir.

1104

1 A My name is L'Houssaine Kherchtou you.

2 Q Keep your voice up. It's a big room you have a soft voice

3 and the air conditioner is running.

4 A L apostrophe H-O-U-S-S-A-I-N-E.

5 Q Spell your last name next.

6 A K-H-E-R-C-H-T-O-U.

7 Q Mr. Kherchtou, can you tell the jury where you were born?

8 MR. SCHMIDT: Excuse me, your Honor, if I may. Could

9 you move the document on top of your Honor's bench. Otherwise

10 I can't see.

11 THE COURT: What document?

12 A I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.

13 Q You have to keep your voice up a little bit louder, and it

14 may help if you sit closer to the directional microphone,

15 point it right at you, and if you see anyone in the courtroom

16 with their hands to their ear it may be an indication you need

17 to speak louder.

18 You may not know that the air conditioner is on that

19 makes it harder because you have a soft voice.

20 A I said I was born in Morocco in May 15, 1964.

21 Q Can you tell the jury how far you went to school in

22 Morocco?

23 A Well, at seven years old I went to primary school. Then

24 secondary school, and in, when I finished my high school I

25 went to catering school.

1105

1 Q And for how long did you go to the catering school after

2 high school?

3 A It was for three years. In between in second year I went

4 for three months training in France in the northwest of the

5 France.

6 Q Can you tell us what year you graduated from catering

7 school?

8 A I don't exactly remember, probably 1987.

9 Q And what religion were you raised in when you grew up in

10 Morocco?

11 A I am a Muslim Sunni.

12 Q A Sunni Muslim?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Can you tell the jury what languages you spoke growing up

15 in Morocco?

16 A Yeah. My first language was Berber, because my parents

17 are Berber, and Arabic and French.

18 Q And you say Berber, is that B-E-R-B-E-R, Berber?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Besides speaking Arabic, Berber and French, did you ever

21 learn another language later on in life?

22 A Yes, I learn English in high school.

23 Q And you could testify in English, but if you have a

24 problem understanding what I say will you use the services of

25 the interpreter?

1106

1 A Okay.

2 Q Seated to your right. Did there come a time that you

3 worked in France after you graduated from catering school?

4 A Yes, in 1989 I moved to France, I emigrate to France.

5 Then I was working for a job there, I found a job in bakeries

6 and later on in Corsica, in France, too, I work for about six

7 or seven months.

8 Q Did there come a time when you left Corsica and moved to

9 another country?

10 A Yes. I left Corsica. I sneaked to Italy.

11 Q What do you mean when you say sneaking to Italy?

12 A It means I didn't had a visa to go to Italy. That's why I

13 just went with other people through the mountains and we were

14 in Italy.

15 Q Once you got into Italy where did you go within Italy?

16 A Well, in Italy, at the beginning I visited main cities

17 from Napoli to Rome. Then at the end I settled down in

18 Milano, or Milan.

19 Q And did you learn the Italian language?

20 A Yes, I did. It was mandate that way to have a job to

21 learn the language first.

22 Q And did you become familiar with a person by the name of

23 Anwar Shaban?

24 A Yes, Sheik Anwar Shaban was managing the Islamic Cultural

25 Institute so I used to go there every weekend.

1107

1 Q And can you tell the jury what city the Islamic Cultural

2 Institute was located in?

3 A It was in Milano.

4 Q And did there come a time when you left Italy to go to

5 another country?

6 A Yes. I think the 23rd of January, January 23rd, 1991 I

7 left Italy to Pakistan.

8 Q And can you tell the jury why it was you in January 1991

9 that you went from Italy to Pakistan?

10 A Why the date or?

11 Q No, why did you do that?

12 A Well, I went normally to Afghanistan, but they said we

13 have to go to Pakistan to go to Afghanistan.

14 Q Can you tell the jury why you wanted to go to Afghanistan?

15 A Well, at that time many people they were coming from all

16 over the world towards Afghanistan to help Muslims there, and

17 I was one of them.

18 Q When you went from Italy to Afghanistan did you travel

19 alone or with others?

20 A No, I was with other four people.

21 Q And do you recall the names of any of the other four

22 people that traveled with you?

23 A I remember a friend called Abu Ahmed el Masri.

24 Q So we're clear, do you know a person by the name of Abu

25 Ubaidah al Banshiri?

1108

1 A Yes, I know.

2 Q The person you traveled with from Italy to Pakistan on a

3 plane, Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri, is that the same person or a

4 different person Abu Ubaidah al Rashidi?

5 A No, it's a different person. That person was my age.

6 He's younger than Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.

7 Q Focus on el Masry who traveled with you, did he have an

8 occupation?

9 A Yes, he was a veterainian or animal doctor.

10 THE COURT: What was he?

11 THE WITNESS: Veterainian.

12 THE COURT: Veterinarian.

13 THE INTERPRETER: Veterinarian.

14 A Veterinarian, sorry.

15 Q If I can ask that Government Exhibit 114 be displayed only

16 to the witness and counsel.

17 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

18 Exhibit 114 for identification?

19 A Yes, that's Abu Mohamed el Masry.

20 Q And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you

21 knew as Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri the, animal doctor?

22 A Yes.

23 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government

24 Exhibit 114 at this time.

25 THE COURT: Received.

1109

1 (Government's Exhibit 114 received in evidence.

2 Q Now, can you tell the jury how you got a visa to go to

3 Pakistan when you were in Italy in 1991?

4 A Well, we got a visa from Rome, from the Pakistan embassy

5 through Sheik Anwar Shaban. He took our passport and he gave

6 them to Abu Ubaidah, this guy, and he was the one who went to

7 Rome and took a visa Tabliri people.

8 Q You mentioned T-A-B-L-I-R-I. Can you explain to the

9 people what Tabliri people are?

10 A Well, at that time those who went to Pakistan legally have

11 to get this visa in order to go to Pakistan. The easiest way

12 is to apply for Tabliri. Tabliri means some Muslims who are

13 preaching Islam everywhere, and they have an annual meeting in

14 Pakistan. That's why when you ask for that visa they just

15 give you the visa to go to Pakistan.

16 Q And was it your intention, did you intend actually to go

17 there as a Tabliri or some different reason?

18 A No, it was thought to go to Afghanistan the reason.

19 Q Now, where in Pakistan did you go?

20 A Well, we reach Karachi, and we meet the plane going to

21 Peshawar. Then we took another plane to Islamabad, and from

22 Islamabad we took another plane to Bait al Ansar, Peshawar.

23 Q And what happened when you arrived in Peshawar?

24 A Well, in Peshawar we met a guy called Abu from emirates,

25 and he the guy who took us to --

1110

1 Q You said he was from emirates, are you referring to the

2 United Arab Emirates?

3 A Yes.

4 Q You said you went to Bait al Ansar. Can you tell the jury

5 what happened when you arrived at Bait al Ansar in Peshawar?

6 A Well, Bait al Ansar was a guest house in which whenever

7 you reach Peshawar the first day you have to go there because

8 you find all the people there. The first thing you do is you

9 take all your valuable things like passports, money, whatever

10 things you have.

11 Then they give you, they put it in a safe place, they

12 give you a number, and they let you know many things about

13 Afghanistan, why you are here, how long you have your time for

14 training, and which camp you are going to be trained in, and

15 if you have clothes they let you know that you have to buy

16 Afghan clothes in Afghanistan, and if you have money you can

17 buy that in the store. If you don't have money, they just

18 provide you with clothes.

19 Q And what name did you go by when you were at Bait al Ansar

20 in Peshawar?

21 A I was, I have a nickname Abu Zaid Maghrebi.

22 Q First, can you tell the jury what al Maghrebi means?

23 A It means the Morrocan, because you find Abu from another

24 country so Abu Maghrebi. That's why you have to specify your

25 country.

1111

1 Q And you indicated that you were asked how long you

2 intended to spend in Afghanistan. What did you tell the

3 people at Bait al Ansar as to how long you intended to stay in

4 Afghanistan?

5 A My time was open. That's what I told them I can stay

6 whatever.

7 Q And what happened? Did you stay in Bait al Ansar?

8 A I think we stayed two, three days, just for prepare

9 ourselves and for other people to come in, and I don't

10 remember who in Bait al Ansar provide us small van of 15

11 people. Then they gave us a date in the morning to go to

12 another city in Pakistan called Miram Shah.

13 Q And how long roughly did it take to go from Peshawar

14 Pakistan to Miram Shah, Pakistan?

15 A I don't remember exactly. Probably five hours or six

16 hours.

17 Q And what was the method of transportation?

18 A It's a minivan.

19 Q And what happened when you got to Miram Shah, Pakistan?

20 A When you got there is another guest house in Miram Shah,

21 and we stayed there a few hours waiting for the car to come

22 from the camp that we choose.

23 Q What was the name of the camp that you chose?

24 A I choose al Farouq camp.

25 Q Did you go to the Al Farouq camp?

1112

1 A Yes, I did.

2 Q And how long, how long a drive was this from the Miram

3 Shah place to guest house to the Farouq camp?

4 A It wasn't that far, but because of the road wasn't good it

5 took I think one hour or roughly one hour and one hour and a

6 half.

7 Q And do you know the name of the biggest city that is near

8 the Farouq camp in Afghanistan?

9 A The city Khost the big city.

10 Q And can you tell the jury what happened the first night

11 you arrived in Farouq camp in Afghanistan?

12 A We arrived there around 6 o'clock in the afternoon, and

13 normally they gave us a place where to stay, a tent or room or

14 something, but I didn't find a place for me.

15 Then they told me to spend the night in the mosque

16 with other people, and during the night there was a shooting

17 and big fire everywhere, and it was around 1 o'clock. Then we

18 came out from the mosque and all people were in the meeting

19 there. It's a matter of welcoming us to the camp.

20 Q The shooting was not an attack by other people. That was

21 a welcome to the camp?

22 A Yeah, it was a welcome to the camp. Just they want us to

23 know that the next life was so hard that's why you have to be

24 prepared. Don't think that you are coming to sleep in the

25 camp.

1113

1 Q And how long did you spend at the Farouq camp?

2 A The normal time two months.

3 Q Can you tell us what you did during the two months at the

4 Farouq camp?

5 A Well, we were trained for how to use the arms, and mines

6 explosives and antiaircraft weapons.

7 Q Can you tell us what type of light weapons you were

8 trained in?

9 A Well, in Farouq camp normally it's a camp divided in three

10 parts. The first part, the first part is about --

11 MR. WILFORD: I'm going to object to the witness

12 saying "normally." That's what he learned at that particular

13 time.

14 THE COURT: All right. Just answer the question.

15 Q Can you just tell us about the time that you went through

16 as a person being trained in Farouq camp how it worked?

17 A Well, when I went there we spent in the first part almost

18 a month and we trained in that first part we trained on the

19 light weapons, like AK-47, M-16, BK, and some pistol and some

20 other light weapons like Uzi and others.

21 Q Did there come a time when you used weapons other than the

22 light weapons such as the rifle the Uzi you talked about?

23 A Yeah. We spent a month there in that place. Then after

24 that we moved to another, the second place, called al Hulia,

25 in which we learned how to use explosives different type of

1114

1 explosives, and mines.

2 Q You mentioned H-U-L-I-A. Was this in a different camp or

3 was this a different part of the Farouq camp?

4 A No, it's inside the camp but the camp the training session

5 is divided in three parts. The first part in which we spent a

6 month, the second part it called al Hulia.

7 Q Can you tell us what type of explosives you trained in al

8 Hulia?

9 A It was a briefing with different types of explosive like

10 C3, C4, dynamite, and I don't remember.

11 Q Did you have any training in detonators?

12 A Yes. They had two type of detonator, electric ones and

13 explosive ones.

14 Q You mentioned mines. What type of mines were you trained

15 in?

16 A Many different types of mines. Personal mines and

17 antitank mines, and antitruck mines, yes, and the butterfly

18 mines, other green one.

19 Q And for how long did you spend in that part of the camp

20 where you trained in explosives and mines?

21 A Almost 15 days.

22 Q And where did you go next?

23 A Then you get, you go next to the third part, it's the

24 mountain. It's because it's a small hill in the same camp

25 called the mountain.

1115

1 Q And what were you trained in at the mountain?

2 A We were trained about antiaircraft weapons like Zukiak I

3 think Albia 7 was actually --

4 Q You mentioned Zukiak. What's a Zukiak?

5 A It's an antiaircraft weapon.

6 THE INTERPRETER: It's a weapon that has two ends to

7 it.

8 Q It's an antiaircraft weapon?

9 A Bullets come out of the that. The bullets come out and we

10 normally used against aircraft.

11 Q Did you receive any training in grenades at any time

12 during your two months in the Farouq camp?

13 A Yes, I think grenade we took with explosives.

14 Q Did you do any physical exercise during the two months

15 that you were in Farouq camp?

16 A Well, in Farouq camp you have exercise that you have to do

17 that we used to do every morning after the first prayer, just

18 we prepare ourselves and we go for exercising for one hour and

19 one hour and a half, sometimes two hours.

20 Q And how did your physical appearance change after the two

21 months in Farouq camp?

22 A Well, after the end of training everybody physical change.

23 Myself I lost a lot of weight.

24 Q Do you know approximately how much weight you lost?

25 A Approximately twenty kilograms, 25, I don't remember

1116

1 exactly.

2 Q Forty or fifty pounds?

3 A Yeah, it was in kilograms is there.

4 Q And during the time that you were being trained in the

5 Farouq camp, yes or no, did you know whether or not you were

6 being observed as to your ability at that time?

7 A No.

8 Q Did you later become a trainer at the camp?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And when you were trainer at the camp did you observe the

11 students at that training camp?

12 A When I was a trainer we don't observe people, but they

13 knew that we did that in Farouq camp.

14 Q Now, you mentioned before that when you were at Peshawar

15 you went by the name Abu aid al Maghrebi. What name did you

16 go by in the Farouq camp?

17 A Yes, I change the name to Abu Talal.

18 Q Can you tell the jury why it was that you changed your

19 name when you went by Abu Talal?

20 A There is another Abu Maghrebi inside the camp. He came

21 before me. That's why they don't want to be confused, they

22 told me to change the name because I came after him.

23 Q And are you familiar with the term emir?

24 A Yeah, I'm familiar with.

25 Q What does emir mean?

1117

1 A It means responsible or the manager of the camp.

2 Q Who was the emir of Farouq camp at the time that you were

3 there?

4 A A guy called by Shuaib.

5 Q What happened after you finished your training at the

6 Farouq camp?

7 A So we left the camp and from Miram Shah we have to go to

8 Peshawar.

9 Q When you were at the Miram Shah during the stop on your

10 way to Peshawar, did anyone approach you to discuss any topic

11 with you?

12 A Well, at the Miram Shah guest house this was outside Miram

13 Shah guest house, the emir of Farouq camp called me and to

14 same Abu el Masry who was friend with me and other two people

15 and they told us that if we like to join al Qaeda works for

16 Islamic.

17 Q Now, the person who approached you, Shuaib, was the person

18 who was in charge of the camp?

19 A Yes.

20 Q And were the other people that were approached was Abu

21 Ubaidah, the veterinarian?

22 A Yes.

23 Q And did he ask you for a decision that day whether or not

24 you would join al Qaeda?

25 A No. He just let us know and he told us if you need more

1118

1 details about al Qaeda and how to join it in Peshawar you will

2 learn a lot of things there.

3 Q And did you go?

4 A Yes, we went to Peshawar.

5 Q And where in Peshawar did you go?

6 A I went to where my clothes and my stuff are.

7 Q Did you go to any place else after you picked up your

8 clothes at Bait al Ansar?

9 A Yes. When he told us that about joining al Qaeda it's

10 like we agreed, but we didn't have the final decision. When

11 we went to Bait al Ansar a guy call, come from, came from Bait

12 al Salaam and he took us and our luggage.

13 Q The second place is Bait al Salaam?

14 A Yes.

15 Q Does Bait mean house?

16 A Bait means house, yes.

17 Q And what happened when you got to Bait al Salaam?

18 A Well, we did the same thing at Bait al Salaam. He gave us

19 again our valuable things passport and money to a person there

20 and he gave us a number take in the safe.

21 Q Did you discuss al Qaeda with any of the people at the

22 place called Bait al Salaam?

23 A Bait al Salaam is al Qaeda guest house. Everybody is

24 there from al Qaeda, everybody is talking about al Qaeda

25 there. We ask many people.

1119

1 Q And did you make the final decision to join al Qaeda or

2 not while you were at Bait al Salaam?

3 A Yes, we made the decision to join them there.

4 Q And did you actually join al Qaeda in Bait al Salaam?

5 A No.

6 Q Tell the jury how you went about joining al Qaeda?

7 A So from Bait al Salaam we decided to go to the front to

8 the Khost front, and in Bait al Salaam told us to go to Miram

9 Shah and we meet somebody there to make a bayat or to join al

10 Qaeda.

11 Q And did you go to Miram Shah?

12 A Yes, we went to Miram Shah.

13 Q You said "we." Who was with you that you recall?

14 A From Bait al Salaam we were many people that went there,

15 they were going to the front. But when I say "we," it was Abu

16 Ubaidah.

17 Q If you call the animal doctor make it easier?

18 A Okay.

19 Q Can you tell us approximately what year and what time of

20 year if you remember that you and Abu Ubaidah, the animal

21 doctor, went to Miram Shah?

22 A Probably April. April 1991.

23 Q And can you tell us what happened when the two of you got

24 to Miram Shah?

25 A So we arrived to Miram Shah guest house we met a guy

1120

1 called a Abu Ahmed al Harbi. We met him there and he took us

2 to his room, and he was, he explained many things about

3 joining al Qaeda, and he gave us a paper in which written in

4 Arabic. It's like a swear to join al Qaeda.

5 Q Can you tell us as best you recall what Abu Ahmed al Harbi

6 told you about al Qaeda during that meeting?

7 A Well, he told us that al Qaeda is a group of Muslims were

8 join to fight for Islam, and to do the good things for Islam

9 and Muslims all over the world.

10 Q Did he tell you who formed al Qaeda?

11 A What?

12 Q Did he tell at that time who had formed the group al

13 Qaeda?

14 A Yeah, he said that the emir.

15 Q Explain what that means or tell the interpreter what that

16 means?

17 A Well, is Islamic word for the manager but it's religious,

18 more religious than. That why I mean you have obey that man

19 and you have to follow his orders as far as they are to

20 benefit Islam and as far as they are not against something

21 Islam.

22 Q Did you actually make a bayat at Miram Shah that day?

23 A Yes, I made the bayat by reading that paper and swearing

24 in front of and signing the paper.

25 Q And did you come to learn what structure of the al Qaeda,

1121

1 who was the boss and who worked under him?

2 A Well, at that time I didn't know many people in al Qaeda

3 but I only knew that Usama Bin Laden is the emir, and Abu

4 Banshiri is number two, and Abu Hafs is the third one.

5 Q And can you tell us what name you new Usama Bin Laden by

6 besides his true name?

7 A Well, he's known by Abu Abdullah, Shaykh Abdulla or

8 sometimes Sheik Usama.

9 Q And what names was Abu Ubaidah known by to you, not just

10 in 1991, but taking us forward?

11 A Sheik Abu Banshiri or Karim or Jalal.

12 Q You mentioned Karim, K-A-R-I-M. And where was it that you

13 knew Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name?

14 A It was in Kenya, Nairobi.

15 Q And you mentioned the name Jalal. Where was it that knew

16 Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri by the name of Jalal?

17 A It was in Kenya.

18 Q If I could display to the witness what's been previously

19 received in evidence as Government Exhibit 100. Do you

20 recognize the person depicted in Government Exhibit 100?

21 A Yeah, that's Sheik Abdullah.

22 Q And can you display 101. Do you recognize that person?

23 A Yeah, that's Sheik Abu Hafs.

24 Q And who is Sheik Abu Hafs?

25 A He's number three of al Qaeda and he is responsible for

1122

1 wing, military wing of al Qaeda.

2 Q Did you know Sheik Abu Hafs by any other name?

3 A Sometimes they call him Khaeik Abu Fatim.

4 Q Will you display to the witness Government Exhibit 103?

5 Do you recognize the person in Government Exhibit 103?

6 A That's Sheik Abu Ubaidah al Banshiri.

7 Q And you mentioned that he was known as Jalal and Karim.

8 Did you ever learn his true name?

9 A Yes, I learned his true name after his death from the

10 newspapers.

11 Q Only from the newspaper?

12 A Yes.

13 Q Now, returning to al Qaeda structure, did you come to

14 learn whether that al Qaeda had any committees?

15 A Excuse me?

16 Q You mentioned before that Abu Hafs was in charge of the

17 military wing of al Qaeda?

18 A Yes.

19 Q How many different groups or committees or wings were

20 there under al Qaeda as you recall?

21 A Well, there is a military committee. There is economy

22 committee. And there is and the military committee, and

23 another committee I have to use the translator.

24 THE COURT: Are you saying economic?

25 THE WITNESS: Economic, yes.

1123

1 THE INTERPRETER: It's the legal, the legal

2 committee. It's the legal committee which is responsible for

3 teaching religion, and anything legal to do with religion.

4 THE COURT: The record should show that the witness

5 is from time to time using the services of the translator.

6 Could you state your name again for the record,

7 please?

8 THE INTERPRETER: My name is Seham Laraby.

9 Q Now, sir, directing your attention back to the military

10 committee, can you tell us who you understood to be in charge

11 of the work for the management of the military committee at

12 various times?

13 A Well, Abu Hafs was the head of this military wing, but

14 there are some other guys who are were responsible, too, but

15 they are under supervision of Abu Hafs, like Abu el Masry.

16 Q You mentioned Abu el Masry. Anyone else?

17 A Saif al Adel.

18 Q You mentioned Abu Islam. How many Abu Islams did you know

19 in al Qaeda?

20 A There are two Abu Islams.

21 Q Are they known by different names?

22 A The old one called Abu Islam Masry, or Islam, and the

23 youngest one called Abu Islam Masry, too, or Shuait.

24 Q Let's go through that. The older one Abu Islam el Masry

25 is also known as Sheik Islam, the younger Abu Islam Masry is

1124

1 also known as Shuait?

2 A Yes.

3 Q Now, if I could display to the witness Government Exhibit

4 for identification 102, and only to the witness and counsel

5 for the moment.

6 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

7 Exhibit 102?

8 A Yes, this is Sheik Alati.

9 Q Is that a fair and accurate depiction of the person you

10 knew as Sheik Alati?

11 A Yes.

12 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government

13 Exhibit 102.

14 THE COURT: Received.

15 (Government's Exhibit 102 received in evidence)

16 Q Display for the witness and counsel only Government

17 Exhibit 104 for identification. It may be in evidence.

18 Do you recognize the person depicted in Government

19 Exhibit 104?

20 A Yes, this is Abu islam al Khabir, the older Islam.

21 Q You mentioned Khabir. That's the person, the older Islam?

22 A Yes, the older.

23 Q Your Honor, I believe 104 is already in evidence so I

24 believe we can display it to the jury. Is this the Abu Islam

25 who is in the military committee?

1125

1 A Yes.

2 Q And if we can display to the witness for identification

3 purposes only Government Exhibit 119. Do you recognize the

4 person depicted in Government Exhibit 119?

5 A Yes. Abu Mohamed el Masry.

6 Q And Abu Mohammed el Masry was he known by any other name?

7 A Saleh.

8 Q S-A-L-E-H?

9 A Yes.

10 Q And do you know if this person was married?

11 A Yes, he is.

12 Q And do you know who his wife was?

13 A He, she is the daughter of Faraj Abu El Masry.

14 Q Faraj El Masry, M-A-S-R-Y?

15 A Yes.

16 Q The person in 119 would be the son-in-law of Sheik Abu

17 Faraj el Masry?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Government Exhibit 119 a fair and accurate depiction of

20 the person you knew as Saleh or Abu Mohamed el Masry?

21 A Yes.

22 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I would offer Government

23 Exhibit 119.

24 THE COURT: Received.

25 (Government's Exhibit 119 received in evidence)

1126

1 Q Do you know if this person depicted in Government Exhibit

2 119 had any children?

3 A Yes, he had.

4 Q Do you recall how many children he had, boys or girls?

5 A Well, he had three daughters.

6 Q Do you remember the names of any of his daughters?

7 A I remember the oldest one, Marium.

8 Q M-A-R-I-U-M.

9 A Yes.

10 Q And was this the same Abu Mohammed el Masry who was in the

11 military committee of al Qaeda?

12 A Yes, he is the same.

13 Q And besides being involved in al Qaeda, did he have any

14 outside of?

15 A Well, before he joined he had told me that he was a soccer

16 player in Egypt and he was playing in a professional team in

17 Egypt.

18 Q Do you remember the name of the professional team he

19 played for?

20 A I'm not quite sure, but probably Mahala.

21 Q Is that a professional team?

22 A Yes, I think it was in the first league.

23 Q Now, you mentioned an economic committee for al Qaeda.

24 Who did you understand to be involved with the economic

25 committee for al Qaeda in a leadership role?

1127

1 A Well, there is Sheik Sayyid el Masry.

2 Q And you mentioned a committee involved with law, legal

3 committee. Who did you understand to be involved with the

4 legal committee for al Qaeda?

5 A Sheik Sayyid, too, the same Sheik and Abu Hafs Mauricni.

6 Q Anyone else that you recall?

7 A I don't remember the names.

8 Q Did al Qaeda have any committee that had to do with the

9 media?

10 A Yes, they had. In Peshawar where we were there they have

11 the committee dealing with the media.

12 Q And who was in charge of dealing with the media in

13 Peshawar?

14 A Well, they have a house in which the media, they issue

15 leaflets, some leaflets every week. Abu Surir was working

16 with them.

17 Q Al Qaeda have any organization that dealt with the media?

18 A Yes.

19 Q Do you know who is in charge of that?

20 A Well, Abu Mohamed el Masry.

21 Q When you say Abu Mohamed el Masry can you refer to the

22 person also known as Saleh?

23 A Yes.

24 Q And who is Haru?

25 A He is from --

1128

1 Q Spell the name of the island if you know how to spell it?

2 A C-O-M-O-R, I don't know.

3 Q And do you know where that island is located?

4 A I think it's near Madagascar I think in the south of

5 Madagascar or in the north, I'm not quite sure.

6 Q And if I can show the witness Government Exhibit 110 for

7 identification. Do you recognize the person depicted in

8 Government Exhibit 110?

9 A Yes, this is Haru al Qamar.

10 Q And is that a fair and accurate picture of the person you

11 knew as Haru al Qamar?

12 A Yes. Q AMA R. Your Honor, I would offer Government

13 Exhibit 110 in evidence.

14 THE COURT: Received.

15 (Government's Exhibit 110 received in evidence)

16 (Continued on next page)

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