USA v. Usama bin Laden et al Trial in the Southern District of New York - Day 7
February 20, 2001
[excerpt]
Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of
New York; (212) 805-0300.
This is the transcript of Day 7 of the trial.
See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm
1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
2 ------------------------------x
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
4 v. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023
5 USAMA BIN LADEN, et al.,
6 Defendants.
7 ------------------------------x
8
New York, N.Y.
9 February 20, 2001
9:50 a.m.
10
11
12 Before:
13 HON. LEONARD B. SAND,
14 District Judge
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1 APPEARANCES
2 MARY JO WHITE
United States Attorney for the
3 Southern District of New York
BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD
4 KENNETH KARAS
PAUL BUTLER
5 Assistant United States Attorneys
6
ANTHONY L. RICCO
7 EDWARD D. WILFORD
CARL J. HERMAN
8 SANDRA A. BABCOCK
Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh
9
FREDRICK H. COHN
10 DAVID P. BAUGH
LAURA GASIOROWSKI
11 Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali
12 DAVID STERN
DAVID RUHNKE
13 Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed
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SAM A. SCHMIDT
15 JOSHUA DRATEL
KRISTIAN K. LARSEN
16 Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage
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1 (Trial resumed)
2 THE COURT: Before I bring in the jury, is there any
3 matter that has to be taken up?
4 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I just want to express to
5 the court and the government what I plan to do in
6 cross-examination related to possible classified documents. I
7 don't think that the cross-examination itself is going to be
8 an issue, but the answers of the witness may present issues,
9 and I want to present that to the court. I set forth my
10 position in my letter last week.
11 THE COURT: You are alerting the court to your
12 reservation of a right subsequent to the conclusion of the
13 cross-examination of the witness to renew applications with
14 respect to discovery or declassification of material that you
15 have been furnished? Is that your concern?
16 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I don't know that it would
17 be appropriate to call it reserving my rights under it. I
18 raised this issue before. I plan to go into some questions,
19 and I think that that already entails some CIPA issues, and I
20 want to make sure that there is no violation of CIPA by my
21 questioning.
22 THE COURT: When the parties were last before the
23 court, which I believe was last Thursday morning, I restated
24 very explicitly what I believed the procedures to be with
25 respect to cross-examination of the witness and any reference
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1 to material which the government stated was classified. You
2 have read those.
3 MR. SCHMIDT: Yes.
4 THE COURT: Very well. We will proceed on that
5 basis, and if you have an application to make after you have
6 completed your cross and before resumption of redirect, if
7 there is to be any redirect, I will give you an opportunity to
8 address the court.
9 (Jury present)
10 THE COURT: Good morning. I hope you all enjoyed
11 your holiday weekend. You recall we are in the midst of the
12 reading of the grand jury questioning of the defendant El
13 Hage, and we will resume.
14 MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, we are starting at page
15 167, line 9.
16 "Q. Have you ever been to Somalia?
17 "A. Yes.
18 "Q. Have you ever brought any money to Somalia?
19 "A. No.
20 "Q. Do you know Abu Talha, T-A-L-H-A-A, Sudani?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha a Sudani?
23 "A. He was working also in the same company in Sudan.
24 "Q. What did he do for Bin Laden's company in the Sudan?
25 "A. Different jobs. He was a driver and he was marketing
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1 inside Sudan for the different products.
2 "Q. And did he fight in Afghanistan?
3 "A. I don't remember. I don't know.
4 "Q. Did he do any military work for Bin Laden?
5 "A. I don't know.
6 "Q. Do you know if Abu Talha a Sudani knew Azmarai?
7 "A. I don't know.
8 "Q. Did he know Abu Hajer?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. How do you know Abu Talha knew Abu Hajer?
11 "A. We all were in the same company at the same time in
12 Khartoum.
13 "Q. Did you work on the same floor?
14 "A. It is only one floor.
15 "Q. Did Abu Talha ever go to Somalia, to your knowledge?
16 "A. I don't know.
17 "Q. Did you ever hear about Abu Talha going to Somalia?
18 "A. No.
19 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone indicate that Usama Bin Laden
20 was responsible for the US military people killed in Somalia
21 in 1993?
22 "A. In his last statement on the CNN, he said so.
23 "Q. Did you ever hear anyone else indicate that before?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. Did you ever know if Abu Talha ever went to the
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1 Philippines?
2 "A. No.
3 "Q. Did you ever go to the Philippines?
4 "A. No.
5 "Q. Did you ever move weapons from one country to another?
6 "A. No.
7 "Q. Outside the United States, had you ever moved weapons
8 within a country?
9 "A. No.
10 "Q. Even a gun?
11 "A. Even a gun.
12 "Q. You carried a gun in Pakistan, right?
13 "A. Yes.
14 "Q. You carried a gun in Afghanistan?
15 "A. Yes.
16 "Q. Did you carry guns anywhere else?
17 "A. In the States, in Arizona.
18 "Q. How about the Sudan?
19 "A. No, never.
20 "Q. Have you ever carried explosives anywhere in the world?
21 "A. No.
22 "Q. Have you ever paid money to someone, understanding that
23 the money was being used for explosives?
24 "A. No.
25 "Q. You had a financial transaction with Bin Laden in the
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1 summer. When was the last financial transaction you had with
2 Bin Laden before the money he sent to you for the malaria
3 control project?
4 "A. There was only two times that he sent money. One time it
5 was $7,000, and this last time was $10,000.
6 "Q. And what did he send you the $7,000 for?
7 "A. Also a project.
8 "Q. And what project was that?
9 "A The needy people in Mombasa.
10 "Q. In Mombasa?
11 "A. Yes.
12 "Q. Who was the person -- did you take the money from Bin
13 Laden and give it to the needy people in Mombasa?
14 "A. It was transferred to my account in Kenya.
15 "Q. Then what did you do with the money?
16 "A. Transferred it for the needy people in Mombasa.
17 "Q. And who did you transfer it to?
18 "A. I went myself, me and Haroun, we went to Mombasa.
19 Q. And so you got a wire transfer from Usama Bin Laden to
20 your bank account in Kenya for $7,000 and then you took the
21 cash out?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. And brought it to Mombasa?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Who did you give it to in Mombasa?
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1 "A. The needy people at the special event, Islamic event.
2 "Q. Even needy people have names. Do you have a name? You
3 gave it to someone.
4 "A. Didn't give it to one individual.
5 "Q. You handed it out?
6 "A. Yes.
7 "Q. Who were the partisans in Mombasa?
8 "A. Excuse me?
9 "Q. The partisans in Mombasa?
10 "A The partisans? I am sorry, I don't know what does that
11 mean. What does the word mean?
12 "Q. Were there people fighting in Mombasa?
13 "A. Fighting? No.
14 "Q. Have there been recent attacks in Mombasa against
15 tourists on the beach?
16 "A. No, not against tourists.
17 "Q. Who were the attacks against?
18 "A. It was ethnic fighting.
19 "Q. And who was fighting in the ethnic fighting in Mombasa?
20 "A. I don't know who was it. The government doesn't know.
21 Just says that bandits were attacking certain localities and
22 killing people. They don't even know what is the motive
23 behind it.
24 "Q. And when was it that you brought the $7,000 down to
25 Mombasa?
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1 "A. Sometime in 1996. I can't recall.
2 "Q. You just brought $7,000 in what currency?
3 "A. Kenyan shillings.
4 "Q. Kenyan shillings?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. How did you hand it out? People showed up and you --
7 "A. Haroun knows the needy localities, and when went to
8 distribute it. Special --
9 "Q Sorry?
10 "A. It is a special.
11 "Q. And the end of Ramadan?
12 "A. In Ramadan, and we have two times every year.
13 "Q. Did you keep a record of who you gave the money to?
14 "A. No. Just depended on Haroun is known by the people over
15 there.
16 "Q. Do you know any of the names of the people in Mombasa
17 that Haroun indicated contact with in order to carry out this
18 giving away of money?
19 "A. I know someone called Sheikh Sayyid.
20 "Q. Sheikh Sayyid?
21 "A. Yes.
22 "Q. Where is Sheikh Sayyid from?
23 "A. Kenya.
24 "Q. Any other names?
25 "A. He is the famous person that I know over there.
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1 "Q. Do you know a Khalid over there in Mombasa?
2 "A. Khalid? It is either his son or his son-in-law.
3 "Q. Who is Khalid's son or son-in-law? Sheikh Sayyid?
4 "A. Yes.
5 "Q. Was there anything illegal about the $7,000 that you and
6 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
7 "A. Anything illegal?
8 "Q. Yes.
9 "A No.
10 "Q Anything wrong with the $7,000 that you and Haroun
11 brought down to Mombasa?
12 "A. I don't understand. I don't think there was anything
13 illegal about it.
14 "Q. Were you at all worried about that $7,000 that you and
15 Haroun brought down to Mombasa?
16 "A. No. Why should we be worried?
17 "Q. Was Haroun worried?
18 "A. I don't think so, no. He was happy.
19 "Q. But when he heard that Madani Al Tayyib was talking to
20 the government authorities, was Haroun worried about his
21 contacts with the people in Mombasa?
22 "A. I don't know. I wasn't around when he knew about this.
23 I was in Pakistan then.
24 "Q. Did Haroun tell you that he broke off all contact with
25 the people in Mombasa after Madani al Tayyib turned up in the
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1 newspapers talking because he was afraid?
2 "A. He didn't tell me that. In fact, he went to Mombasa.
3 "Q. Hasn't come back since, correct?
4 "A. He came back when I came back. He went to Mombasa before
5 I came back, and then we -- when he knew I came back, he came
6 to Nairobi.
7 "Q. Where was he staying in Nairobi?
8 "A. I don't know, but I believe he would stay in the hotel in
9 Eastleigh.
10 "Q. Where would he usually stay when he worked for you all
11 that time in Nairobi?
12 "A. With me in my house.
13 "Q. When you last came back to Nairobi and he met him at your
14 friend's house, where did he stay then?
15 A. I don't know where he stayed, but he probably in a hotel,
16 like I said, in Eastleigh.
17 "Q. But he no longer stayed at your house?
18 "A. No, he was afraid.
19 "Q. Why was he afraid?
20 "A. Because he heard that the FBI people came over.
21 "Q. Now, when you were in Arizona, you knew Mubarak al
22 Dousri?
23 "A. Yes.
24 "Q D-O-U-S-R-I?
25 "A. D-O-O-R-Y.
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1 "Q. And did Mubarak el Doory from Arizona turn out later to
2 work for Usama Bin Laden?
3 "A. Yes, in his agricultural company in Sudan.
4 "Q. And when did he work for Usama Bin Laden in the Sudan?
5 "A. In '92.
6 "Q. And was he still working for Usama Bin Laden when you
7 left the Sudan in 1994?
8 "A. Yes.
9 "Q. When was the last time you spoke with him?
10 "A. That year, '94.
11 "Q. When was the last time you saw him?
12 "A. That same year.
13 "Q. When you worked for Usama Bin Laden, in the Sudan, how
14 much were you paid?
15 "A. $1,200.
16 "Q. Per?
17 "A Per month.
18 "Q. For How long did you work for him?
19 "A. Almost two years.
20 "Q What banks did he keep his money at?
21 "A. Bank el Shamar.
22 "Q. Any other banks?
23 "A. I think he had accounts in different banks, but I only
24 recall Bank Shamar.
25 "Q. Did he keep any accounts in your name?
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1 "A. No, I had my own account.
2 "Q. The one at Girocredit in Vienna?
3 "A. No, no, in Sudan.
4 "Q. Your name?
5 "A. Yes.
6 "Q. That was for your money?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q Do you know Mohamed M-A-S-A-R-I?
9 "A. Yes.
10 "Q. Have you ever met him?
11 "A. No.
12 "Q. Do you know where Mohamed al Masari lives?
13 "A. He lives in England.
14 "Q. Do you know if he works with Bin Laden?
15 "A. I don't.
16 "Q Do you know Saad al Faqih, F-A-Q-I-H?
17 "A. I don't know him but I know he works with al Masari.
18 "Q. Are you familiar with the Committee of the Defense of
19 Legitimate Rights, CDLR?
20 "A. I heard of it.
21 "Q. Do you know what its relationship is to Bin Laden?
22 "A. No, but they both are positioned against the Saudi
23 government.
24 "Q. Do you know if Bin Laden is a member of CDLR?
25 "A. I don't.
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1 "Q. Do you know Dr. Abdullah Muhammad Yusuf?
2 "A No.
3 "Q Do you know Inb al Qattab?
4 "A Ibn?
5 "Q Ibn al Qattab?
6 "A Al Qattab. Ibn al Qattab? I heard the name.
7 "Q Where did you hear it?
8 "A. In Pakistan.
9 "Q. From whom?
10 "A. Different people, I can't recall whom exactly.
11 "Q. Have you ever met him?
12 "A. I don't remember meeting him.
13 "Q. Do you know Assadalla, A-S-S-A-D-A-L-L-A, al Sindi?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Q. Where did you meet Assadalla al Sindi?
16 "A. I never met him, but I heard he works for Bin Laden.
17 "Q. What does he do for Bin Laden?
18 "A. I think business in Pakistan.
19 "Q. Business where?
20 "A. In Pakistan.
21 "Q. Pakistan?
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. Does he know Azmarai?
24 "A. I don't know. He probably does.
25 "Q. Have you ever met Assadalla al Sindi yourself?
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1 "A. No, never.
2 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Jamal Khalifah?
3 "A. No.
4 "Q. Do you know Mohamed Amin al Sanani, S-A-N-A-N-I?
5 "A. No.
6 "Q. Can you tell us what the al Baraka files are,
7 B-A-R-A-K-A?
8 "A. Al Baraka files?
9 "Q. Yes.
10 "A. I don't recall this name.
11 "Q. Do you recall maintaining the al Baraka files yourself?
12 "A. No, never.
13 "Q. Now, you have told this grand jury the last time you
14 dealt with Usama Bin Laden the last time you worked for him
15 was 1994.
16 "A. Yes.
17 "Q. That is the last time you have seen him?
18 "A. Yes.
19 "Q. I am going to ask you again so that the record is crystal
20 clear that you have been warned, that to lie is punishable as
21 perjury which you can spend five years in jail. I want to be
22 crystal clear you understood what my questions are. I am
23 going to ask you again.
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Have you seen Usama Bin Laden anyplace in the world in
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1 1995, 1996, or 1997?
2 "A. I haven't seen him anywhere after I left Sudan.
3 "Q. And after you left Sudan in what year?
4 "A. '94.
5 "Q. So it is your testimony that you have not seen Usama Bin
6 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996, or 997?
7 "A. Yes.
8 "Q. And you have not told anyone that you have seen Usama Bin
9 Laden anywhere in the world in 1995, 1996 or 1997?
10 "A. Yes.
11 "Q. I would ask the grand jurors, the foreperson, if we could
12 tell Mr. El Hage that we would adjourn his testimony. I don't
13 know if we will have to follow up any further, but if he could
14 see stay under subpoena and if we need to call him back, the
15 foreperson can contact us and we will reach out and make the
16 appropriate arrangements.
17 "The foreperson: Do you understand?
18 "Q. What I am suggesting to the foreperson is we break for
19 the day, and if we decide we need further testimony from you,
20 we will schedule it at a mutually convenient time at our
21 expense. But if we need to bring you back, we don't need to
22 send someone to hand you a subpoena, we can call you up and
23 say please come back again. Do you understand that?
24 "A. Yes.
25 "Q. Does the foreperson so direct?
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1 "The Foreperson: You understood?
2 "A Yes.
3 "The Foreperson: You may be excused.
4 "Q. The last thing is, if there is any question you would
5 like to change the answer to right now, this is your chance to
6 do so.
7 "A Are we going to go over the questions?
8 "Q For whatever reason, if you came in here and told any
9 lies, this is your chance to tell us you would like to take
10 back an answer. Otherwise, the record will be sealed, and for
11 any false statements you could be prosecuted. So I am giving
12 you that answer.
13 "A No.
14 "Q OK, thank you.
15 "(Witness excused.)
16 "(Time noted, 3:44 p.m.
17 "(Colloquy follows.)
18 "Certificate. State of New York, County of New York.
19 I, Carey-Ann Rosenblatt hereby certify that the foregoing is a
20 true and accurate transcript, to the best of my skill and
21 ability from my stenographic notes of this proceeding.
22 Carey-Ann Rosenblatt, acting grand jury reporter."
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Al-Fadl will be recalled to the
25 stand for cross-examination.
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1 THE COURT: Very well. You will recall that this
2 witness has testified on direct and has been cross-examined on
3 behalf of the defendants except the defendant El Hage, whose
4 attorney was ill. Mr. Schmidt has rejoined us and we will
5 proceed then with the cross-examination on behalf of the
6 defendant El Hage with the witness Jamal Ahmed Mohamed
7 al-Fadl.
8 JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL,
9 recalled as a witness by the government,
10 having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
11 THE COURT: Is there a stand-by interpreter?
12 MR. FITZGERALD: Yes. Ms. Grant went to get the
13 interpreter. I have seen her with my own eyes. We can start
14 without her, but Ms. Grant went to get her.
15 MR. SCHMIDT: Your Honor, I would prefer to have the
16 interpreter present.
17 MR. FITZGERALD: In case she is in the ladies' room,
18 I don't know if we could borrow one of the interpreters from
19 the back to start, if she is in the ladies' room.
20 THE COURT: Is there another interpreter available?
21 MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Coudoni seems to be coming.
22 (Andre Coudoni sworn as interpreter)
23 (Continued on next page)
24
25
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al-Fadl - cross
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. SCHMIDT:
3 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, did I pronounce that correctly?
4 A. What?
5 Q. Did I pronounce the name correctly?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You began working in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden, is that
8 correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. What was the year that you first began doing work in the
11 Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
12 A. I believe end of '89, the first time I went to Sudan.
13 Q. That was the first time after going to Afghanistan that
14 you went to the Sudan, is that correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You were born and raised in the Sudan, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You went from Afghanistan to Sudan at the bequest of
19 Mr. Bin Laden, is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What was your role? What did you do when you first went
22 to the Sudan in 1989?
23 A. I remember we, me and other brother we went over there and
24 we start to rent houses and establish companies for the group.
25 Q. In the Sudan back in 1989, was property required to be
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al-Fadl - cross
1 owned by Sudanese?
2 A. Which Sudanese?
3 Q. Were foreigners allowed to own property in the Sudan?
4 1989?
5 A. Yes. Some property buy with money and some property from
6 the government.
7 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you please interpret this
8 question, please.
9 Q. In 1989, were foreigners allowed to own property in the
10 Sudan? (Interpreted)
11 A. I don't know the government rule, but we have agreement
12 between the group and the government. That's how he got the
13 land.
14 Q. The properties that were first rented or purchased were in
15 names of Sudanese, isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, under my name.
17 Q. Are you aware that the Sudanese law required that property
18 be held in the name of Sudanese businesses or persons?
19 A. Well, I rent it and some lands I bought it, and I think
20 that's the law.
21 MR. SCHMIDT: Can you translate my question.
22 Q. Were you aware that Sudanese law required that property be
23 held under the name of Sudanese or Sudanese businesses?
24 (Interpreted)
25 A. (Through interpreter) Investment law permits that.
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Q. Permits what?
2 A. To buy land or houses or farms.
3 Q. Under the names of Sudanese persons or businesses, is that
4 correct?
5 A. Under Sudanese, but for foreign people, no.
6 Q. For foreign use, but under the names of Sudanese persons
7 or businesses, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. How long did you remain in the Sudan when you first went
10 over in 1989 to purchase or lease properties or start
11 businesses?
12 A. I don't remember exactly, but I back and forth between
13 Sudan and Pakistan, different times.
14 Q. What year was it when you moved back to the Sudan with
15 Mr. Bin Laden?
16 A. When he come back from Pakistan to Sudan, I didn't come
17 with him.
18 Q. You remained in Afghanistan?
19 A. Yes. I went Sudan and I come back to Pakistan, because
20 once in a while I go back and I tell him what going on in
21 Sudan.
22 Q. When did you return to the Sudan to live?
23 A. Like I tell you, I go back and forth between Sudan and
24 Pakistan.
25 Q. There came a time that you stopped going back and forth
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al-Fadl - cross
1 from Afghanistan and Sudan and you stopped and you started to
2 live in Sudan again. When was that?
3 A. Yes. I live in Sudan I think in '91, I went back to
4 Pakistan, I come back again and in '92 I went back to Pakistan
5 and I come back again.
6 Q. In 1991, how long did you go back to Pakistan?
7 A. Not more than two weeks.
8 Q. In 1992, how long did you go to Pakistan?
9 A. It could be week or 10 days.
10 Q. So other than these short trips, you lived in the Sudan,
11 is that correct?
12 A. Correct, yes.
13 Q. When was it that you started to live in the Sudan, not
14 counting the short trips to Pakistan?
15 A. It's hard to say because I'm always traveling. I live in
16 Sudan but always I go outside to Egypt, to Pakistan, to other
17 countries, and I come back to Sudan.
18 Q. Did Mr. Bin Laden buy you a house when you returned to the
19 Sudan?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What year did he buy you a house?
22 A. I think that's in '92.
23 Q. And that was for you and your wife, is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Between 1989 and end of 1991, what jobs were you doing for
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al-Fadl - cross
1 Mr. Bin Laden?
2 A. I switched from other things. Like sometime I work from
3 one, sometimes I work -- I don't have like one job. So I
4 switch from different companies, different jobs.
5 Q. Are you telling us that you worked for one company for one
6 week and then you went to another company for another week and
7 another association?
8 A. Yes sometimes tell me to do that job, go to Qadarif. I do
9 the trip. Sometimes tell me to go to Damazine and Umduhrman.
10 Q. Mr. Fadl, you testified on direct examination at some
11 point that you worked in an office at McNimr Street, is that
12 correct?
13 A. That's correct, yes.
14 Q. When did you actually start sitting in an office and doing
15 work in an office?
16 A. Since the first time I went to Sudan end of '89 and we
17 established Wadi al Aqiq company.
18 Q. After you started the company, helped start the companies,
19 helped lease property, were you based out of the office at
20 McNimr Street?
21 A. Yes, I have office over there.
22 Q. Were you paid a salary through one of the companies in
23 McNimr Street?
24 A. From Laden International Company and Taba Investment, and
25 also I got another salary from the group.
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1 Q. No matter which company you were actually doing work
2 for --
3 A. I work for all the companies.
4 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, please let me finish my question. No matter
5 which company you were actually doing work for, you were being
6 paid from the Taba or Laden International, is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So if you went on a trip for one of the agricultural
9 companies, you still would get the check, or the money from
10 Taba, say, is that correct?
11 A. That is correct.
12 Q. In 1989, you purchased, you helped others lease property,
13 bought property, started businesses; is that your testimony?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Other than doing these trips that you said, what other
16 kind of work did you do in 1989, 1990, and 1991?
17 A. One time I did trip to Egypt from Pakistan.
18 Q. What else?
19 A. I work inside Sudan. I went to the Damazine Camp, over
20 there. I buy sesame and beans from Khartoum Bari City. I
21 work in Damazine. I got Islamic training in Soba farm for
22 three weeks. I got refresh training also in Tajj al Sirr
23 Mustafa's guesthouse.
24 Q. Did there come a time that you became an assistant to a
25 person that you call Abu Makkee, whose real name is Madani Al
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1 Tayyib?
2 A. Yes, Madani al Tayyib Abu Fadhl al Makkee.
3 Q. I am going to call him Madani Tayyib. You know what I am
4 talking about?
5 A. OK.
6 Q. When did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
7 A. First time I see him? Is this your question?
8 Q. When did you become a business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
9 A. First time I work with him in Afghanistan in '89.
10 Q. Mr. al Tayyib was running one of the companies in the
11 Sudan, is that correct?
12 A. He is a supervisor for the whole business in Sudan, when
13 he moved to Sudan.
14 Q. Did you become an assistant to him in the Sudan?
15 A. Yes, I work under him.
16 Q. What year did you become an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib in
17 the Sudan?
18 A. Maybe this area of '91.
19 Q. Prior to becoming the business assistant to Mr. al Tayyib,
20 did you serve, other than what you mentioned, any other
21 function in the Bin Laden companies?
22 A. Yes, I do other stuff.
23 Q. For example?
24 A. Like sometimes they tell me go to Pakistan, take this
25 message.
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1 Q. OK.
2 A. I go Pakistan. Sometimes --
3 Q. In the Sudan --
4 THE COURT: He hadn't finished his answer when you
5 cut him off.
6 A. Madani Tayyib, he is a businessman, he runs the companies,
7 but at the same time he work in the group. Sometimes he give
8 me business work, sometimes he tell me go get training.
9 Sometimes he tell me those new people, go interview him.
10 Sometimes he tell me go to Abu Abdallah Lubnani, we need
11 Islamic training. So whatever he tell me, he is my manager
12 business, and at the same time he is my emir under the group.
13 Q. I am saying, between 1989, first time you came back to the
14 Sudan and to the time that you became the special assistant to
15 Mr. al Tayyib, have you basically told us every kind of work
16 that you did in the Sudan for Mr. Bin Laden?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How long did you work as a special assistant to Mr. al
19 Tayyib?
20 MR. FITZGERALD: Objection to form.
21 A. Like I tell you --
22 THE COURT: Just a moment.
23 MR. FITZGERALD: Just objection to form.
24 THE COURT: Restate your question.
25 MR. SCHMIDT: Could we have it read back, please?
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1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 (Record read)
3 MR. FITZGERALD: The same objection to form, to
4 special.
5 THE COURT: To the special. Objection as to your
6 objection to describing special assistant as a term the
7 witness is not familiar with.
8 Q. Have you described everything that you did in Sudan from
9 the time that you returned to the Sudan in 1989 until the time
10 you became an assistant to Mr. al Tayyib?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When you were working for Mr. al Tayyib, did you handled
13 commercial business?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us some of the products that were involved
16 in the commercial business.
17 A. I arrange guesthouses, I buy farms and license for the
18 companies. I help people for traveling.
19 Q. Mr. Al-Fadl, were there certain products that Mr. al
20 Tayyib and Taba were trying to sell or grow to sell?
21 A. Yes. We sell sugar and palm oil and soap, we exchange
22 foreign, the local bonds to foreign. We buy peanuts and
23 sesame, sunflower.
24 Q. There were farms that produced agricultural products, is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes, in Damazine.
2 Q. Where were the tractors obtained?
3 A. Could you repeat the question.
4 Q. Where were the tractors obtained from?
5 A. The tractors?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. In the farm, in Damazine.
8 Q. Where were the tractors purchased from?
9 A. Where we buy from?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. I remember Abu Rida al Suri, he buy them from
12 Czechoslovakia.
13 Q. Were there trucks used, both the construction company and
14 the agricultural companies?
15 A. We have contract transportation. It's a company just run
16 the tractors.
17 Q. Were the trucks purchased from Russia?
18 A. Yes, from, I forget the name of the company now.
19 Q. Maz?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Is that the name?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who went to purchase the trucks?
24 A. I don't remember, but I think Abu Rida al Suri and
25 Abdallah Lubnani.
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1 Q. One of the products that were grown by one of Mr. Bin
2 Laden's companies was sesame, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And there was great effort made to sell the sesame
5 throughout the world, is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. There was also white corn grown, is that correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Peanuts were grown, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Sunflowers were grown, is that correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Wheat was grown, is that correct?
14 A. She help me. I don't know what that mean. (Interpreted)
15 Yes.
16 Q. And there was a whole bunch of fruits and vegetables grown
17 from one of the other companies, is that right? Blessed
18 Fruits, is that it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Was there olive oil produced?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Was there other kinds of oil produced?
23 A. Yes, from sesame and peanuts.
24 Q. This is the early years we are talking about, 1990, 1991,
25 right, '92?
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1 A. '93, '94.
2 Q. Part of your job and other people's job when you were
3 working for Mr. al Tayyib was trying to find markets for these
4 items, is that right?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And later on the items also included skins from the
7 tannery, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. There were fava beans, is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was also -- now let's talk a little bit about the
12 different companies that formed Mr. Bin Laden's enterprises.
13 A. OK.
14 Q. There were some local companies, like a bakery, is that
15 right?
16 A. What?
17 Q. He had a bakery?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. He had the fruit and vegetable export company, is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He had a Bank of Zoological Resource?
23 (Interpreted)
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. That was to basically raise cattle?
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1 A. Yes, make good genes.
2 Q. And he invested quite a bit of money to try and raise good
3 cattle and make hybrids.
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. How many people worked at the fruit and vegetable company?
6 A. It's run by somebody, his name Motasem al Saudi, but I
7 don't know how many people.
8 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the Bank of
9 Zoological Resource?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Do you know how many people worked at the bakery?
12 A. No.
13 Q. How many people worked at Laden International?
14 A. Maybe around 25 in that office in McNimr Street.
15 Q. How many people worked at the Altehmar al Mabuaraka,
16 A-L-T-H-E-M-A-R, A-L, M-A-B-U-A-R-A-K-A?
17 A. A lot of people. They got few people in office in
18 Khartoum and people in the farm at Damazine.
19 Q. How about Blessed Fruits? A lot of people worked there?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Do you know how many?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What about Taba?
24 A. Taba and Laden and Qudurat Transportation, 25 people work
25 in office.
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1 Q. How about the International al-Ikhlas Company, A-L,
2 capital I-K-H-L-A-S?
3 A. Al-Ikhlas, in the office I think it's around 10 people do
4 the business in the office.
5 Q. They manufactured sweets and honey, is that right?
6 A. Yes. The factory in Kameen, not in Khartoum.
7 Q. Al-Ikhlas was the main company, mother company, the main
8 company that owned most the of the other companies, right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Mother company.
11 How many people worked in just the offices involving
12 al-Ikhlas?
13 A. Bin Laden himself, Sharif al Deen -- I think it could be
14 around 15 or 20.
15 Q. Wadi al Aqiq is a name of a company, has nothing to do
16 with Wadih El Hage, is that correct?
17 A. Could you repeat.
18 Q. The name Wadih El Hage has nothing to do with Wadi al
19 Aqiq, is that correct?
20 A. No, I believe it's valley in Saudi Arabia belong to Bin
21 Laden.
22 Q. How many people worked at the tanning company?
23 A. I don't know. It's a lot of people. It's a big tannery.
24 Q. There was a furniture company making furniture, wasn't
25 there?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. How many people worked at the furniture company?
3 A. A lot.
4 Q. At the construction company, al Hijra? That was over 600
5 people who worked there, right?
6 A. Or could be more.
7 Q. Could be more. And they built a number of roads.
8 A. Roads and bridge and yes.
9 Q. You mentioned a few of them.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. They also built a road from Khartoum to Port Sudan, is
12 that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. That was one of the major projects that was here.
15 A. Yes. It's a major history in Sudan.
16 Q. You became aware that there were sanctions against the
17 Sudan, international sanctions.
18 A. Yes, I hear that.
19 Q. You know that made trade more difficult from the Sudan to
20 countries in Europe and North America, is that right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. Therefore it reduced the value of the Sudanese pound.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. So it was important for the companies to try to do what
25 they can to export products that they produced into Europe and
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1 America, is that right?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. To do that, sometimes they had to ship their products
4 through other countries, is that right?
5 A. Yes, correct.
6 Q. One of the most popular companies to ship these items was
7 Cyprus, is that right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Because that was a free port, is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was no al Qaeda activity in Cyprus, it was just
12 business activity in Cyprus; isn't that right?
13 A. I believe we got guesthouse but we got company, office
14 running the business.
15 Q. That is because if you exported through Cyprus, the value
16 of the product would increase tremendously.
17 A. Yes, make more money.
18 Q. You have told us that tractors were purchased in
19 Czechoslovakia and trucks were purchased in Russia, is that
20 right?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. One of the reasons that they were purchased in the eastern
23 European countries was that it was much cheaper to purchase
24 items in the eastern European countries than they would be in
25 the western European countries or in the United States, is
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1 that correct?
2 A. Yes, cheaper, and they give them more time for paying.
3 Q. So for the business enterprises involved in the Bin Laden
4 companies, there was a lot of travel not only to western
5 Europe but to eastern Europe and other countries where items
6 could be purchased cheaper.
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You are Sudanese, is that correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Traveling through western Europe or to the United States
13 or even to the Far East was somewhat difficult for you because
14 you had a Sudanese passport, is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. People who had either European, western European passports
17 or American passports were table able to travel much easier,
18 is that correct?
19 A. Yes, much, much easier.
20 Q. Therefore it was less expensive for them to travel, is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. They were able to do business faster because of those
24 passports, is that correct?
25 A. Correct.
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1 Q. They were more valuable to the Bin Laden businesses
2 because they were able to travel easily.
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. For commercial purposes to either buy goods like the
5 tractors or to sell goods like sesame and the skins and those
6 items, is that right?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Sudan is a poor country, isn't it?
9 A. Very poor.
10 Q. The average income is about $50 a month for the average
11 Sudanese?
12 A. No, I think it's much less.
13 Q. And there are a lot of things that aren't produced in
14 Sudan if you want to run a business that you have to purchase
15 outside of the Sudan, is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So either you or Abu Rida or other people -- withdrawn.
18 Abu Rida had an American passport, didn't he?
19 A. I hear that, yes.
20 Q. Do you know who Abu Khadija is?
21 A. I think he got German citizen.
22 Q. People like him would travel to eastern Europe and western
23 Europe to try to get the best things that were needed that had
24 to be imported into the Sudan, is that right?
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. There was cement that was needed?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. There was asphalt that was needed. There was fertilizer
4 for the farms that were needed.
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. People also would come up with ideas, maybe we can --
7 withdrawn.
8 Taba was a company that sold things inside of the
9 Sudan, is that right?
10 A. Yes, the local stuff.
11 Q. And for it to make money, you would have to get it at a
12 lower price and then sell it at a higher price, is that right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And then, since the Sudan is a very poor country, you have
15 to make sure you get a real low price for these items because
16 otherwise you will not be able to sell them in Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So part of the travel of these people who had either
20 European or American passports was to see if they could do
21 trading, buying something in another country that is less
22 expensive and selling it in the Sudan at a relatively cheap
23 price to make a profit, is that right?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. There came a time that you left working as an assistant
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1 for Mr. al Tayyib and you became, you started to work for Abu
2 Rida, R-I-D-A, is that right?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Since you started working as an assistant sometime in 1992
5 for Mr. al Tayyib, you worked about a year for Mr. al Tayyib
6 as his assistant, is that correct?
7 A. It could be more.
8 Q. When do you think that you went to work for Abu Rida as
9 his assistant?
10 A. I worked with Abu Rida and I come back to al Tayyib. So I
11 left Tayyib I go to Rida and go back to al Tayyib. I go do
12 other stuff and go back to Tayyib.
13 Q. Did you work about seven months for Mr. Abu Rida?
14 A. Not in his office for seven months, but any time he want
15 me to go, I do the job for him and I come back.
16 Q. At the time that you went, you were freed up to work for
17 Mr. Abu Rida when Mr. El Hage came to the Sudan, is that
18 right?
19 A. I don't know what you talk about, Hage.
20 Q. Mr. El Hage, Wadih El Hage who is sitting over there.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. He came near the end of 1992, is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you helped train him to do the trading aspects that
25 you were doing for Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Once he was trained, you were able to do some work for
3 Mr. Abu Rida, is that right?
4 A. Yes, you are right.
5 Q. In fact, Mr. El Hage -- withdrawn.
6 Abu Rida was doing a lot of traveling because he had
7 an American passport, is that correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. After Mr. El Hage was trained about the commodities, he
10 started doing a lot of traveling instead of Abu Rida, is that
11 right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So therefore Mr. El Hage ended up being out of the
14 country, out of the Sudan quite a bit doing the traveling that
15 Abu Rida was doing before.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And you were working mostly for Abu Rida at that time. If
18 there was nothing in particular you might go back and help out
19 Mr. al Tayyib, is that right?
20 A. Yes, I go back to Tayyib or I go to other stuff.
21 Q. There was also an Abu Dijana who came in.
22 A. Yes, Abu Dijana Abdallah al Yemeni.
23 Q. And he came in and was trained by you as well, is that
24 right?
25 A. With Sayyid el Masry and Bushra Yasin. Other people also
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1 train him.
2 Q. So he was not traveling that much, he was mostly in the
3 office, is that right?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. So by early 1993, Mr. El Hage was doing a lot of traveling
6 out of the country concerning selling things like the corn,
7 the sesame seeds, hibiscus, right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And other items that they were trying to produce in the
10 Sudan, is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. He was also doing a lot of traveling to obtain more
13 tractors, is that right?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And other items like asphalt or cement or pricing other
16 items that might be useful to make money in the Sudan, is that
17 right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So he wasn't around that much in 1993 because he was doing
20 most of the traveling for Taba and Laden International, is
21 that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. In fact, after you trained Mr. El Hage, you didn't see him
24 very much in the business. You were doing different things,
25 right?
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1 A. Yes, you are right.
2 Q. I want to mention some other items that Mr. El Hage and
3 other workers at Laden International or Taba were involved
4 either trying to obtain or sell. Bananas?
5 A. Yes in Kassala City.
6 Q. Butcher equipment? (Translated)
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Canned mushrooms and canned tomatoes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Cement?
11 A. Yes, from outside, you are right, we bring it from
12 outside.
13 Q. A deal to try and produce, to make a cheese factory?
14 A. I don't remember this.
15 Q. There was machines that needed to be purchased to crush
16 rock?
17 A. For the Qudurat Construction?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. There was discussions about purchasing iron?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Insecticides?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Lathing machines?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. Lemons?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Olives?
4 A. I don't remember olives.
5 Q. Raisins, nuts, hazelnuts and almonds?
6 A. I don't remember.
7 Q. From Tajikistan? Does that ring a bell?
8 A. I really don't remember.
9 Q. There was discussion about building a rice mill?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. There was always businesses involving sugar, is that
12 right?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. The sugar was produced both inside Sudan, right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There was also discussions of importing sugar as well?
17 A. Yes, local and import, yes.
18 Q. And there was talk about wood, obtaining wood from Turkey?
19 A. Yes, I remember.
20 Q. There was an awful lot of business going on in the Bin
21 Laden businesses, wasn't there?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. After Mr. El Hage and Mr. Dijana came in, working in Taba,
24 there came a time about a year later in 1994 where you left
25 your employments with Mr. Bin Laden, is that correct?
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1 A. No, I don't leave the group in 1994.
2 Q. Didn't you go work for a research institute?
3 A. A delegation office.
4 Q. Didn't you call that a research institute?
5 A. We call it delegation office.
6 Q. Wasn't that a Sudanese company that was not affiliated
7 with Mr. Bin Laden?
8 A. This is, it's office helped the people when the other
9 groups come to Sudan, we interview them and we make sure they
10 are good people.
11 Q. Do you know the name of Amin Hassan Omer, A-M-I-N,
12 H-A-S-S-A-N, O-M-E-R? It may be O-M-A-R. Amin Hassan Omer.
13 Do you know that name?
14 A. No, I don't remember.
15 Q. Do you know who was the legal security adviser to
16 President Basheer in 1994?
17 A. Could you repeat the question.
18 MR. SCHMIDT: Could you translate that, please. Do
19 you know the name of the person who was the legal security
20 adviser to President Basheer in 1994?
21 A. Yes. His al Tayef. I don't remember his whole name but I
22 remember his family name al Tayef.
23 Q. Didn't you go work for him in 1994?
24 A. No. Delegation office, they got different manager. His
25 name Dr. Motrif Sadeek.
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1 Q. We will come back to this. At some point you started
2 working at the company called al Sargani.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That company was a company where all of the shareholders
5 were relatives of yours, is that correct?
6 A. Sargani belong to Islamic National Front but it's owned by
7 me, but we use it as umbrella for other work.
8 Q. When you use the term Islamic National Front, that was the
9 political party of Sudan that was in power, is that correct?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. The person at that time who was the president of Sudan was
12 a man named Basheer, is that correct?
13 A. Could you repeat your question.
14 Q. The president of the country of Sudan back in 1994 was
15 President Basheer.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. The person who headed the party, what you call the Islamic
18 National Front, was a man named al Turabi.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. It was known that Mr. Al Turabi basically was the power
21 behind the government, is that correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You used Islamic National Front. Is it sometimes the
24 initials NIF used?
25 A. Yes, NIF.
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1 Q. So if I use the expression NIF, you will know what I am
2 talking about?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Al Sargani was an NIF company, is that correct?
5 A. Yes, it's umbrella company.
6 Q. You told us that Sheikh Sayyid el Masry came into the
7 offices at McNimr Street on June 9, 1993, is that correct?
8 A. I don't remember the month, but it could be June '93.
9 Q. You testified on direct examination not just to the month,
10 you gave the specific date, June --
11 A. I don't remember now. If I say at that time, yes,
12 correct.
13 Q. Is there a reason why you remember a specific date on
14 direct examination while Mr. Fitzgerald was examining you and
15 now you don't even remember a month?
16 A. No, it's just human, you know. Sometimes you ask me a
17 question, I don't remember it.
18 Q. You left the Sudan the last time in February of 1996, is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, in February '96.
21 Q. You traveled to quite a few places. Is that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You were traveling -- first you went to Syria because that
24 simply was the easiest place to go, is that right?
25 A. Yes.
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